Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Turned a corner?

124»

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,786 ✭✭✭✭whelan1


    there was no where near the amount of places for agricultural students this year for the amount of people who applied ... for a booming part of the economy the government again has let us down


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,011 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    If there is that much return on it, the agricultural students would pay for their education. The truth is they dont see it worthwhile to pay for an agricultural qualification...why should the government?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Sand wrote: »
    If you mean "forced" as in being kidnapped and dragged in chains to the airport and deported, no, theyre not being forced.

    On the other hand, when options are being pursued so that the interests of insiders are prioritised, so that very few outsiders with skill and ambition will actually be given any opportunity to work in Ireland then yes, they are being forced to leave. Much as refugees from any disaster zone - economic or otherwise - are forced to leave by the circumstances they are forced into.
    Right. Whatever you say Sand. My peers and I were "forced" to leave Ireland, never to return, and we are poorer for it. I mean, it's not like there are any jobs in Ireland or anything.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,011 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Right. Whatever you say Sand. My peers and I were "forced" to leave Ireland, never to return, and we are poorer for it. I mean, it's not like there are any jobs in Ireland or anything.

    If you were reviewing the CVs I've been reviewing lately for temporary, practically unpaid intern positions....in Ireland....then youd know that what you consider to be irony isnt actually too far off the truth. Who knows, maybe from abroad it looks rosier.

    Also I dont think emigrants are the poorer for leaving Ireland. If they cant find jobs in Ireland, then theyre probably richer for leaving Ireland as opposed to sitting on the dole. Practically by definition. However, I think Ireland is the poorer for exporting its young people where the skills and educations paid for by Irish taxpayers benefits the economies of other, non-Irish countries. The the critical issue from an Irish economic point of view - resources poured into education are wasted when our young, educated workforce up and move to the US, the UK, Australia or New Zealand.

    Irelands not the only country to try kid itself that habitual emigration is somehow normal or beneficial. Many other failed economies and societies try to rationalise their failure in such a way.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,491 ✭✭✭Yahew


    Sand wrote: »
    I

    Irelands not the only country to try kid itself that habitual emigration is somehow normal or beneficial. Many other failed economies and societies try to rationalise their failure in such a way.

    Horsepoo. Quite the opposite, Ireland - like your rant - massively fetishes the óchon, the historical destructiveness, of emigration. Something deeply rooted in our history when emigration was final - a death of the emigrant to everybody else ( hence the wake). In general, the sentiment is hostile. Brian Lenihan was ran out of town for saying it wasn't a bad thing, necessarily, in the 80's.

    Even though, as we saw in the 90's - and before RyanAir - people tended to come back when things got good. In short, Irish emigration is now mostly temporary, and emigrants can return at will. I was contemplating watching the match tomorrow in Dublin at a friend's house, but decided against it. So I stayed in the UK. Cost wasn't an issue, laziness was. He asked Thursday. I have turned up in Dublin before when asked at similar short notice, however.

    Compare how sanguinely Australians emigrate to the UK for a few years, and Britons to Australia for good, and no-one gives a sh*te. And thats the other side of the world.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,011 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Right - given Irish emigrants abroad cant seem to seperate their own anecdotal, individual experience from objective, national exerience lets try a more distant example.

    Lets look at Mexico and the USA.

    Which is the more successful economy? The USA.

    Where are Mexicans famous for migrating to? The USA.

    People emigrate from failed states - economically and socially - to states to where they can succeed economically and socially. They literally vote with their feet. People rationalise failure of course (look at the Nigerian forum I linked to earlier where emigration was similarly defended as a sign of economic vitality and strength, with similar prickliness from Nigerian emigrants), but trying to argue that emigration is a sign of a strong economy is just.... :rolleyes:

    @Yahew
    Horsepoo. Quite the opposite, Ireland - like your rant - massively fetishes the óchon, the historical destructiveness, of emigration. Something deeply rooted in our history when emigration was final - a death of the emigrant to everybody else ( hence the wake). In general, the sentiment is hostile. Brian Lenihan was ran out of town for saying it wasn't a bad thing, necessarily, in the 80's.

    Even though, as we saw in the 90's - and before RyanAir - people tended to come back when things got good.

    You're contradicting yourself. You claim emigration is'nt destructive - yet you then go on to claim people come back when they can, when things get good and they can find a job in Ireland. That implies people prefer to remain in Ireland and only leave when they have to, when times are bad and they cant find a job in Ireland.

    Curious - doesnt sound like the joyous occasion you dress it up as. Never mind, keep rationalising it to yourself.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 137 ✭✭TheoBane


    Well i think our biggest problem was that the country was run like a club instead of a business, the people running the country have no idea what to do with our country. They treat everything as relaxed approach that you get in a country club.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,491 ✭✭✭Yahew


    Sand wrote: »
    Right - given Irish emigrants abroad cant seem to seperate their own anecdotal, individual experience from objective, national exerience lets try a more distant example.

    Lets look at Mexico and the USA.

    Which is the more successful economy? The USA.

    Where are Mexicans famous for migrating to? The USA.

    People emigrate from failed states - economically and socially - to states to where they can succeed economically and socially. They literally vote with their feet. People rationalise failure of course, but trying to argue that emigration is a sign of a strong economy is just.... :rolleyes:

    Give over, you are losing. Mexico never had the kind of massive re-immigration of Mexicans from the US back to Mexico in the 90's, nor did it have massive immigration from all over the world in the 2000's. Ireland's population, was at peak, 20% immigrant. It's probably still 15%.

    So the "habitual" immigration you keep harping on about like a broken record IS NOT HAPPENING. What is happening, is a small - and historically trivial amount of immigration ( a term almost ridiculous when applied to the UK) - which will probably reverse when things get better, because that happened before. I doubt if Ireland had more than 2 years of net immigration in the last 20.

    The only "anecdotal" evidence here is yours - I mentioned the differences in the type of immigration TWICE ( which is once too much), and how it is now temporary, like Australia to Britain. You've told stories about CV's.

    You reply with Mexico, a country 4 times poorer than the US. The wage levels between Australia, and Britain; or Ireland and Britain are about the same so people move freely in both directions ( Britons being Ireland's largest immigrant group - another difference from Mexico-America).

    Comparing with Nigeria, and/or Mexico is an abysmal argument.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,491 ✭✭✭Yahew


    Sand wrote: »


    You're contradicting yourself. You claim emigration is'nt destructive - yet you then go on to claim people come back when they can, when things get good and they can find a job in Ireland. That implies people prefer to remain in Ireland and only leave when they have to, when times are bad and they cant find a job in Ireland.

    Curious - doesnt sound like the joyous occasion you dress it up as. Never mind, keep rationalising it to yourself.

    I came over here in the boom. The next week I was at a hurling final. I think Irish people should leave Ireland, and then return if they want. Anything else is pure parochialism.

    I will be back. But wanting to live in Ireland all you life is a parochial attitude.

    And what I was responding to was your argument about how destructive emigration is. It's isnt. Its just a trip. Then you come home, if you want. With experience. We've seen this before. We'll see it again. This is different from the 50's when people did not come back.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,011 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    @Yahew

    - You're talking about emigration as if it was travelling off to India and finding yourself on some world travel experience. Grand. That might be your personal experience. I would say two things:

    A - Moving from Ireland to the UK isnt really "getting out and seeing the world".

    B - This is the forum for discussing the Irish Economy. Not individual world travel experiences and how it broadens the mind. Hence, my focus on the economic impact of habitual emigration and why it is ridiculous to consider emigration as some form of economic strength. You admit as much when you say that when there are "good times" emigrants tend to return to Ireland - not when they want. When there are "good times" and they can find work in Ireland. Emigration occurs from failed countries to successful economies.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,491 ✭✭✭Yahew


    Sand wrote: »
    @Yahew

    - You're talking about emigration as if it was travelling off to India and finding yourself on some world travel experience. Grand. That might be your personal experience. I would say two things:

    A - Moving from Ireland to the UK isnt really "getting out and seeing the world".

    I've also lived to the US. That's just me, however. It's great that you are agreeing, however, that going to the UK is not that big of a deal. THAT IS MY ARGUMENT.
    . It is however, not your argument.
    B - This is the forum for discussing the Irish Economy. Not individual world travel experiences and how it broadens the mind. Hence, my focus on the economic impact of habitual emigration and why it is ridiculous to consider emigration as some form of economic strength. You admit as much when you say that when there are "good times" emigrants tend to return to Ireland - not when they want. When there are "good times" and they can find work in Ireland. Emigration occurs from failed countries to successful economies.

    Jesus wept.

    I didnt just argue from personal experience, I used them as an example of how emigration is different for most Irish emigrants and I made that clear in every single post. Either you are too stupid to read my posts, or you are being disingenuous. I go with the second option, but I wouldn't rule out the former.


    For the 3rd time. My main points, this time without "anecdote" so you can't hide behind that fig leaf.


    1) Ireland has had inward net immigration for most of the last 20 years.
    2) given the nature of it's open economy its not susprising that a recession would see net-emigration.
    3) Most of this emigration, unlike the emigration of the 50's will be temporary.
    4) Other rich coutries - and Ireland is a rich country - have histories of emigration, and immigration which ebb and flow as the state of the econmies which swap populations. I gave an example of Australian immigration to London. A good percentage of Australians leave. Most come back. That is the new Irish experience.
    5) There is no comparison between Ireland immigration to the UK and Mexican Immigration to America for two reasons: British people come here, and Irish people return. Thats similar to the British-Australian experience, not the Mexican-American experience.

    I made all of these points before. You ignored them and whined about Anecdotes.

    As for the anecdotes when I say that I can get home to Dublin in 45 minutes, I mean that I and every other Irish emigrant can do the same. I thought that was obvious, maybe you thought that RyanAir only flies for me. Thats mistaken.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Sand wrote: »
    The the critical issue from an Irish economic point of view - resources poured into education are wasted when our young, educated workforce up and move to the US, the UK, Australia or New Zealand.
    I just don’t see it like that, because many will return. And they will return with experience that they would not have been able to obtain in Ireland.
    Sand wrote: »
    Irelands not the only country to try kid itself that habitual emigration is somehow normal or beneficial.
    I’m not saying it’s normal and I’m not saying it’s always beneficial. I’m saying there are pros and cons and I don’t think it’s the end of the world if people leave the country temporarily.
    Sand wrote: »
    Lets look at Mexico and the USA.
    As has been pointed out to you already, that’s a ridiculous comparison. People move freely between the UK and Ireland all the time – the same is not true of the US and Mexico.
    Sand wrote: »
    ...people come back when they can, when things get good and they can find a job in Ireland. That implies people prefer to remain in Ireland and only leave when they have to...
    Oh come off it. People emigrate for all sorts of reasons. Why is it that tens of thousands of people emigrated right throughout the boom?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    djpbarry wrote: »
    I just don’t see it like that, because many will return. And they will return with experience that they would not have been able to obtain in Ireland.

    Many? how many is many??


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    Many? how many is many??

    As many as wish to.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,396 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    Many? how many is many??
    How long is a piece of string?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    Many? how many is many??
    Well, if you look at immigration figures over the last 8-10 years, about 25% of all immigrants into Ireland were in fact Irish nationals returning from abroad.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    How long is a piece of string?


    If one is going to start throwing words such as "many" about some figures might be in order.

    djpbarry wrote: »
    Well, if you look at immigration figures over the last 8-10 years, about 25% of all immigrants into Ireland were in fact Irish nationals returning from abroad.

    So? this 25% of Irish returning in that year represents what % of users leaving in the year these people left?

    so how many is many?


    so out of everyone who immigrated in 80s how many (%) returned?
    same for 90s and each other decade...

    My question is quite genuine and the tone of your post implies that you are sitting on these stats, so please do share them

    so once again how many is many?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,396 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0312/1224291980040.html
    IRELAND IS in the grip of a “media, moral and public panic” about emigration that is not justified by the number of Irish people leaving the country, a migration expert has said.

    Prof James Wickham, director of the Employment Research Centre at Trinity College, told a conference yesterday that during the general election campaign politicians and the media wildly exaggerated emigration rates.

    “During the election we were told every day how 1,000 Irish people were leaving the country every week. The only problem with that is that a substantial number of them are returning immigrants,” said Prof Wickham.

    The most recent estimates published by the Central Statistics Office indicated 27,700 of 65,300 emigrants recorded in the year to the end of April 2010 were Irish.

    Prof Wickham said there is a very real danger that the “media, moral and public panic” surrounding emigration could become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    “The rhetoric that is being used in the current discussion of this in the media is that of the emigrant wake like the 1950s.The emigration we are experiencing is much more like the emigration of the 1980s rather than the 1950s. The 1980s represented a turning point for Ireland, and many of these educated people returned in the 1990s bringing new skills and money,” he said.

    He said Irish emigration was not yet at the mass emigration levels seen recently among young people in Poland and Spain.

    The test of whether Irish migration would become mass emigration would occur this summer, when a new generation of students will leave university, he said.

    “We should learn lessons from the recent mass emigration from Poland, when people were treated as traitors for leaving. This created dissatisfaction. But I’ve seen no sign of that in Ireland, which has a good record of welcoming back emigrants,” he said.

    Prof Wickham said the concept of a “brain drain” caused by emigration is giving way to a more modern concept called “brain circulation”, whereby people tend to move countries more often before returning to their home state.

    He said migration is now a fact of life for different generations, including retirees living in the south of Spain and young people who form relationships with people from different countries.

    “There has been a huge growth in so-called love miles, people following their girlfriend or boyfriend and living in their country,” he said.

    He said emigration should not be treated as an “unmitigated disaster” but effort should be put in to encouraging educated people to return with skills later.

    Prof Wickham was speaking at a research symposium at Trinity College, “Employment and the Crisis: Work, Migration, Unemployment”.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,396 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    ei.sdraob wrote: »

    So? this 25% of Irish returning in that year represents what % of users leaving in the year these people left?

    so how many is many?


    so out of everyone who immigrated in 80s how many (%) returned?
    same for 90s and each other decade...

    My question is quite genuine and the tone of your post implies that you are sitting on these stats, so please do share them

    so once again how many is many?
    Source: http://migration.ucc.ie/
    The 1980s.

    In the 1980s a number of factors combined to create a very difficult economic climate. A large part of the blame must be attributed to a massive increase in the public debt. This can be dated back to the General Election of 1977, when a "give-away" election manifesto led to the abolition of most local taxes. The increase in debt came at a period of painful re-structuring within Irish industry and at a time when the need to reform the Common Agricultural Policy was becoming a dominant EU theme, not least because of Mrs. Thatcher’s efforts. At the same time, emigration, which some had thought to be a phenomenon of the past, rose very sharply and rapidly became one of the cultural and social issues of the day, even though many politicians were slow to understand the implications (22).

    Since that time, emigration has not ceased to be a subject of public debate. Much of the focus in the 1980s was on Irish "illegals" (undocumented aliens) in the USA and ignored the fact that the majority of emigrants still went to the UK. The NESC (23) report suggests that in the 1981-1990 period 68% of all emigrants went to the UK, 14% to the USA and 18% to other countries. This is not the place to examine the statistical difficulties in tracking Irish emigration flows, except to stay that the data which is available is incomplete and difficult to dis-aggregate.

    Ultimately, the problem of Irish undocumented aliens in the USA was largely resolved by a number of measures: the Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA) of 1986, which amnestied certain categories of illegal aliens including many Irish, and the various special programmes which have had the effect of creating new opportunities for Irish would-be migrants to the States - by the early 1990s up to 16,000 visas annually were available to Irish immigrants. However, the last of these programmes is about due to expire and one must wonder if the next few years will see a resurgence of the "illegals" phenomenon. For the first time since the 1950s, there is now a large, young, Irish immigrant population in several American cities. They are well organised and politically astute. Research indicates that, irrespective of their social and economic status, the social networking skills of the Irish, wherever they are, are still a key factor in determining choices of destination (24) The mere presence of such large numbers of young Irish is likely to encourage their younger counterparts to follow them.

    During the mid-1980s a particular controversy broke out about the number of Irish "illegals" in the USA - was the figure 40,000 - 50,000, as the Government claimed, or more than 100,000, as a number of emigrant action groups asserted? Most commentators (including the present author) thought the lower figure was closer to the truth at the time, but the availability of better data from the 1991 Census has, if anything, lent weight to the higher figure.

    This is because the 1980s, the years of emigration, were also paradoxically characterised by a phenomenon whose sheer scale had not been predicted by any commentator: substantial, even massive, inward migration. In effect, the number who left the country was even higher - by a great deal - than had been thought, but this was masked by the fact that far more persons than was imagined either came back to Ireland, or immigrated to the country as nationals of other countries. As pointed out by Courtney (25), there were approximately 472,300 emigrations from Ireland (26 Counties) between April 1982 and 1993; in the same period, there were approximately 263,500 immigrations.

    The implications of this latter figure are stunning and have yet to be fully considered. It is one thing to consider the impact on Irish society of the absent Irish - and they are no longer so absent anyway, for a variety of reasons to do with mass communication and transport and the way we define "Irishness" nowadays . But the combined impact of the return migration of Irish people and a considerable leavening of foreign-born immigrants (whether of Irish descent or not) is bound to have major implications for the future of Irish society and culture. This phenomenon continues (see chart 6 and commentary below).

    chart6.gif

    In retrospect, there was evidently a strongly demographic element in the return of emigration in the 1980s. As I have earlier pointed out, there was an unprecedented rise in births in the 1960s in Ireland. Even if the economic climate had been favourable, the fact was that more and more school-leavers - the baby-boomers of the 1960s - were entering an already over-crowded labour market in the 1980s. But the economic climate was not favourable and there was difficulty even in retaining existing employment. New job creation on the scale which would have been required was never in prospect (26). This is not intended to absolve the Irish government and Irish society for a phenomenon whose sheer scale shows that very large numbers of young people became involuntary migrants from a society which had no future to offer them. In the single year 1989 more than 70,000 people left the country, probably the highest figure for any one year this century.

    Meanwhile, the choice of destinations of Irish emigrants has undergone a sea-change. The relative importance of the UK has declined while continental Europe has emerged as a major new factor in the equation; up to a quarter of Irish emigrants in some recent years went to the USA. While the latest statistics show a continuing high level of emigration, balanced by a continuing high level of in-migration, the overall impression must remain one of an extraordinary volatility. Chart 7 illustrates this trend (see also more detailed comments below).

    chart7.gif

    and later...
    Conclusions

    Whatever the negative consequences of modernisation (and leaving to one side the contentious question of how the term is to be defined), the late 1950s and 1960s marked the beginning of an ineluctable process of rapid change which is as yet unfinished. In their marriage and fertility patterns Irish people are no longer atypical. Ireland is slowly becoming a country of immigration - with as yet unforeseeable consequences - as well as one of continuing emigration. The current generation of Irish emigrants are both more likely to choose new and more varied destinations and are also more likely to return. In time, Ireland will experience the same dilemmas of an ageing population, soaring social security costs and skills shortages as other European countries - the major difference being that it will experience these problems a generation later than everyone else.

    Ireland is still a part, in some respects at least, of the British labour market. There is still a significant migratory movement which is largely non-voluntary and which consists of under-skilled people for whom Ireland has provided few opportunities but who also find themselves at a relative disadvantage in the UK. It also remains the destination of choice for a wide range of latter-day Irish migrants, both voluntary and involuntary.

    Continental Europe now constitutes a realistic and significant option for a large minority of Irish young people. Even if they are not totally representative, the base is broadening constantly and rapidly. However there is a danger that this may merely lead to the swapping of an Ireland-UK periphery-core relationship for an Ireland-Continental Europe one.

    The above comments notwithstanding, the outstanding feature of recent Irish migration is its extraordinary volatility. The USA continues to be an attractive destination for a very significant minority, while year-on-year trends can fluctuate widely.

    Return migration is a significant feature: Irish people were less likely (about 6%) at the beginning of the century to return than any other category of European migrant. This has now completely changed and return migrants are likely to be a force to be reckoned with in the coming years.

    Migration is not purely a "rational", economically-based decision. Irrespective of stated intentions, it seems likely that migration for at least a period is a life-option for significant numbers of young Irish people

    Emigration is, however, a complex and ultimately individual process. While there is a demonstrable link between high unemployment and high emigration we should be cautious in establishing linkages: many socio-cultural factors intervene and deterministic models are dangerous: post hoc and propter hoc are not the same. Thus, those most likely to be unemployed are not, in fact, the most likely to leave, whereas the urban middle classes, with better job opportunities, are highly mobile. Farmers show a low propensity to emigrate but persons from rural Ireland generally do not. It is important to guard against an over-simplistic application of structuralist perspectives such as world systems approaches, whereby all migrants tend to be represented as disadvantaged victims. Equally, the interpretation of migration as the "rational" choice, freely made, of persons wishing to better themselves economically, is simplistic and inaccurate and does not attend sufficiently to socio-economic and cultural influences. Finally, there has not been sufficient space in this brief survey to focus on non-economic factors but one may cite such cases as those women migrants who left Ireland because of an unwanted pregnancy or were disillusioned with social progress, persons suffering from AIDS who preferred to be in the UK or elsewhere because of better treatment and a more accepting social climate, and gay men and women who felt restricted by Irish attitudes (even though the law has changed and social views are slowly evolving).

    Modest but significant numbers of people who are not of Irish ancestry are now immigrating to Ireland. Their impact is out of all proportion to their numbers as many settle in non-urban areas as counter-cultural migrants of a new kind. These and other kinds of immigration, even if only on a modest scale, are likely to continue. This raises important questions about identity and community which have previously been avoided. The Irish record of tolerance towards difference, as evidenced by attitudes and policies concerning the travelling community within the country, is, to put it mildly, mixed.

    Finally, the Irish Diaspora is itself more visible in Ireland nowadays. This is fuelling a fascinating debate about identity, place and community - does "Irishness" repose in the specificity of place, one grandparent’s blood, or the ephemeral unity of thousands of people cheering a soccer team of mixed accents and mixed race, something which would have been unthinkable in the Ireland of the 1950s (40)?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    My question is quite genuine and the tone of your post implies that you are sitting on these stats, so please do share them
    The figures are available on the CSO website:
    http://www.cso.ie/px/pxeirestat/Statire/SelectVarVal/saveselections.asp


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,030 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    So are we happy to be a nation which imports and exports its citizens in a 15~20 year cycle of boom and bust?

    No developed country that I know of considers forced (economic, not "at gunpoint") emigration to be overall a positive. It brings some positives, but overall is a sign of a weak economy and Ireland would be better if we weren't exporting people to gather skills abroad but rather simply importing foreign workers with the necessary skills directly, where they can then impart them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    djpbarry wrote: »

    Neither your link nor FreudianSlippers ones

    tells anything about what % of Irish people who emigrated in (70s/80s/90s/00s) eventually return here

    If we use your figure of ~25% of immigrants being returning Irish then most/many Irish do not return back here


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭Duke Leonal Felmet


    I reckon we will never grow again, meaning that soon, we will have negative gdp, negative wages, negative, negative, negative.

    I love Morgan Kelly.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,491 ✭✭✭Yahew


    murphaph wrote: »
    So are we happy to be a nation which imports and exports its citizens in a 15~20 year cycle of boom and bust?

    No developed country that I know of considers forced (economic, not "at gunpoint") emigration to be overall a positive. It brings some positives, but overall is a sign of a weak economy and Ireland would be better if we weren't exporting people to gather skills abroad but rather simply importing foreign workers with the necessary skills directly, where they can then impart them.

    Only one developed country cries so much about what is probably temporary movement - and a slight one at that - the figures which FreudianSlippers presented were 27,700 Irish natives in the year to 2010, and there would be Irish returning, so the net is insubstantial, in a huge recession. I think it is too small. Get over here, make some money, go home.
    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    Neither your link nor FreudianSlippers ones

    tells anything about what % of Irish people who emigrated in (70s/80s/90s/00s) eventually return here

    If we use your figure of ~25% of immigrants being returning Irish then most/many Irish do not return back here

    In the 90's prior to the accession states getting woking rights in Ireland, the UK and Sweden ( in 2004) the majority of the emigration to Ireland was returning emigrants, and Ireland had net positive emigration as the boom took off.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 489 ✭✭mlumley


    So, we need to spend more. People are scared stiff of spending. They see money in the bank as a safty net for themselves. They are not worried about the economy, only themselvs, and who can blame them? Dunnes can look after their own business, they just want to know they can pay their bills.

    So what do we as a country do?

    Lower the prices.

    Taking money out of the economy wont do a thing, except collaps the market. Less to spend looses jobs,and raises the Social Welfare payments.

    Reducing costs would help. Not raising ESB bills, Gas bills Comecial Rates for business's. Reducing rent allowence for claiments ( I am in recipt of this, so no bias), will help rents go down. How is it that most properties charge that maximum? Dont reduce dole payments and leave us money to spend. This will help local Business's and keeep jobs.

    Reducing the amount of local councils will gretly reduce payouts by overnment. Why does my area ( South Tipp) need two councils? South tipp and Clonmel Borough????? Ok, so they said South and North Tipp will be one, get rid of some town councils as well, its just a duplication of services.

    Its just a tsart, there is a long way and it will be painfull. We are not a manufactoring base and farming will only go so far.

    Would it cost jobs to raise Corporate tax by say 2%? I dont think so. It might also get us some cudos in Europe. And get those bloody French off our backs.

    If we dont do some thing soon, we will be bac k to the 50's and 0's when no one had a job.


Advertisement