Israel approves 1,100 more settlement homes

dlofnep

Israel approved on Tuesday the construction of 1,100 homes for Jews on annexed land in the West Bank, a move that will complicate international efforts to renew peace talks and defuse a crisis over a Palestinian statehood bid at the United Nations.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/27/us-palestinians-israel-settlements-idUSTRE78Q3PQ20110927

What's Netanyahu playing at? He claims he seeks a peaceful resolve, but does absolutely everything possible to thwart Palestinians and provoke violence. This proves that Abbas was absolutely right to go to the UN, because Israel will is incapable of reaching any sort of fair and balanced agreement.

wes

Yeah, that pretty much proves Abbas right, and it make the Americans look like even bigger fools imho.

woodoo

Netanyahu knows that the american public are so stupid that he can do what he wants at home and talk peace in america and it will be swallowed hook line and sinker.

headmaster

There was one BIG mistake made in the 40's and Palestine wouldn't have the problem it has now, nor would trespassers be on their land.

Dirk Gently

pretty much expected. Standard Israeli response is always to make the situation worse.
They as good as have their own veto on the security council with America unable to break the connection with Israel under any circumstances which gives them carte blanch to provoke at will. I genuinely feel sorry for Obama in all this, he must be chomping at the bit to vote in favour of the Palestinian bid but can't because it would be political suicide if he did. He must be feeling pretty isolated having to back such extremism coming from the far right in Israel.

gandalf

As everyone else has said if Israel was serious about peace it would halt the building of these settlements. The fact they have greenlit more just confirms that they will seek their "Lebensraum" at all costs.

woodoo

Dirk Gently wrote: »

pretty much expected. Standard Israeli response is always to make the situation worse.
They as good as have their own veto on the security council with America unable to break the connection with Israel under any circumstances which gives them carte blanch to provoke at will. I genuinely feel sorry for Obama in all this, he must be chomping at the bit to vote in favour of the Palestinian bid but can't because it would be political suicide if he did. He must be feeling pretty isolated having to back such extremism coming from the far right in Israel.

If Obama gets back in he will be out for some revenge and will hang Israel out to dry.

beagle001

No he won't,
the Israeli lobby is too powerful in Washington and Obama can do nothing about it.
The Israeli state is s monster with it's own agenda and nothing will stop it's people they believe in it so much.
I feel sorry for the Palestinians big time as we will never see a solution brought about any time soon.

digme

Why don't they round up the Palestinians and deport them?

Nodin

digme wrote: »

Why don't they round up the Palestinians and deport them?

.....because you can get the same result without the massive bad PR doing things on a slow drip.

arybvtcw0eolkf

In the same week that Netanyahu gave a very powerful speech to the UN General Assembly this is very disappointing.

karma_

Lillie Colossal Raspberry wrote: »

In the same week that Netanyahu gave a very powerful speech to the UN General Assembly this is very disappointing.

...and completely unsurprising.

digme

Lillie Colossal Raspberry wrote: »

In the same week that Netanyahu gave a very powerful speech to the UN General Assembly this is very disappointing.

To who, you?

arybvtcw0eolkf

karma_ wrote: »

...and completely unsurprising.

Nope I wasn't surprised at all, doesn't mean I can't be disappointed.

digme

Lillie Colossal Raspberry wrote: »

Nope I wasn't surprised at all, doesn't mean I can't be disappointed.

To be disappointed means you were expecting something.

dlofnep

Lillie Colossal Raspberry wrote: »

Nope I wasn't surprised at all, doesn't mean I can't be disappointed.

It's not the first time he has approved settlements though. Do you now agree that Netanyahu has no interest in peace unless they are on his terms?

Ellian

Dirk Gently wrote: »

pretty much expected. Standard Israeli response is always to make the situation worse.
They as good as have their own veto on the security council with America unable to break the connection with Israel under any circumstances which gives them carte blanch to provoke at will. I genuinely feel sorry for Obama in all this, he must be chomping at the bit to vote in favour of the Palestinian bid but can't because it would be political suicide if he did. He must be feeling pretty isolated having to back such extremism coming from the far right in Israel.

While I know where you are coming from, I just can't muster sympathy for a man who is morally compromising himself, for the sake of his own political career. He's the President of the United States - there is no gig after this one - it's what he does now in this office that counts. I actually think in a way he is worse than Bush. Bush was a neo-con and the Palestinian's knew they were going to get the bums rush with him. When Obama was elected they might have thought that at last, here is a President who will acknowledge our grievances and make some attempt at impartiality and mutually acceptable resolutions. And they get that UN speech, which was so pro Israeli I think even the Israeli's were shocked? So US credibility at an all time low.

arybvtcw0eolkf

dlofnep wrote: »

It's not the first time he has approved settlements though. Do you now agree that Netanyahu has no interest in peace unless they are on his terms?

Of course I'd agree, if you asked me the same question of Abbas I'd give you the same reply.

thebman

dlofnep wrote: »

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/27/us-palestinians-israel-settlements-idUSTRE78Q3PQ20110927

What's Netanyahu playing at? He claims he seeks a peaceful resolve, but does absolutely everything possible to thwart Palestinians and provoke violence. This proves that Abbas was absolutely right to go to the UN, because Israel will is incapable of reaching any sort of fair and balanced agreement.

First thought is this is pants.

I generally don't get involved on threads on this issue (do read them from time to time) because of how aggressive people get on these threads and because I just plain don't know enough about it.

This is just b*ll*cks from Israel though. Where are the usual defenders of Israel on this thread?

digme

thebman wrote: »

First thought is this is pants.

I generally don't get involved on threads on this issue (do read them from time to time) because of how aggressive people get on these threads and because I just plain don't know enough about it.

This is just b*ll*cks from Israel though. Where are the usual defenders of Israel on this thread?

stfu u "anti semite"......

cyberhog

Dirk Gently wrote: »

pretty much expected. Standard Israeli response is always to make the situation worse.
They as good as have their own veto on the security council with America unable to break the connection with Israel under any circumstances which gives them carte blanch to provoke at will. I genuinely feel sorry for Obama in all this, he must be chomping at the bit to vote in favour of the Palestinian bid...

I agree with what you said up until the bit about Obama wanting to vote in favour of the Palestinian bid. Obama has done absolutely nothing that favours the Palestinians, he's 100% behind Israel and to think otherwise is simply ignoring reality.

Back in February the UN Security Council was ready to endorse a resolution condemning settlement building but the Obama administration prevented it from being adopted.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/19/world/middleeast/19nations.html?_r=1

Gideon Levy heavily criticised the decision.

A friendly US, concerned for Israel's fate, should have said no. An America that understands that the settlements are the obstacle should have joined in condemning them. A superpower that wants to make peace, at a time when Arab peoples are rising up against their regimes and against the US and Israel, should have understood that it must change the old, bad rules of the game of blanket support for the ally addicted to its settlements.

Levy adds:

A friendly America should have mobilised to wean Israel of its addiction. Only it can do so, and it should have started, belatedly, at the Security Council on Friday.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/with-settlement-resolution-veto-obama-has-joined-likud-1.344502?localLinksEnabled=false

So I wouldn't feel any pity for Obama, the guy is a duplicitous weasel.

Siuin

thebman wrote: »

First thought is this is pants.

I generally don't get involved on threads on this issue (do read them from time to time) because of how aggressive people get on these threads and because I just plain don't know enough about it.

This is just b*ll*cks from Israel though. Where are the usual defenders of Israel on this thread?

TBH because of my links with Israel - many of my friends live there, as well as my boyfriend who is a soldier- I would usually be sympathetic to Isreal, but when it comes to settlements, I draw the line. It doesn't make me one bit popular with Jewish friends (it's come to the point that we can't talk about politics anymore) but I've been to a settlement in Hebron, I've spoken to the settlers and their head Rabbi, and all I can say is this- the blind racism, disgusting sense of self entitlement and complete disregard for other peoples' rights is unbelievable. Their Rabbi declared to me that "the air is cleaner in Hebron because there are no churches and mosques to pollute it" -- I wonder how the fundamentalist Christians who defend the 'chosen people' would feel about such obvious bigotry. Tbh going home (to Tel Aviv) in the bus, I just felt sick to my stomach from the whole experience. These people had absolutely no regard for human life- here they were, the vast majority being American extremists who had brought their (many) young children into a hostile environment which is a virtual army base- soldiers and wire fencing and guard posts everywhere. Absolutely no quality of life for the settlers, nevermind the Palestinians. And for what? An ideology? It makes me so angry to think about it.

Just out of interest, here are some of the photos I took in the settlement:

arybvtcw0eolkf

thebman wrote: »

Where are the usual defenders of Israel on this thread?

In his address to the UN general assembly Netanyahu somehow tried to justify continued expansion on security grounds, its the one area of his speech which struck me as complete bullsh*t.

I think few could justify it.

charlemont

Its colonisation pure and simple and it strikes me as having Lebensraum type policies were in this case the native Palestinians are treated as the Untermenschen. Israel has no interest in peace.

dlofnep

Lillie Colossal Raspberry wrote: »

Of course I'd agree, if you asked me the same question of Abbas I'd give you the same reply.

Yes, but Abbas terms are accepted by the entire world - A 2-state solution based on the 67 lines. Netanyahu's terms are that all of Jerusalem should become part of Israel.

nacho libre

Ellian wrote: »

While I know where you are coming from, I just can't muster sympathy for a man who is morally compromising himself, for the sake of his own political career. He's the President of the United States - there is no gig after this one - it's what he does now in this office that counts. I actually think in a way he is worse than Bush. Bush was a neo-con and the Palestinian's knew they were going to get the bums rush with him. When Obama was elected they might have thought that at last, here is a President who will acknowledge our grievances and make some attempt at impartiality and mutually acceptable resolutions. And they get that UN speech, which was so pro Israeli I think even the Israeli's were shocked? So US credibility at an all time low.

That's true about Obama actually been worse than Bush. At least Bush wasn't a chameleon. The fact is Obama is putting personal ambition before principle.
Although I can't say I'm surprised. Very early into his presidency it was clear his policy towards Israel would be indistinguishable from his predecessor when he delivered a gushing speech to the APIAC.
The real danger now is of a third intifada starting.

arybvtcw0eolkf

dlofnep wrote: »

Yes, but Abbas terms are accepted by the entire world - A 2-state solution based on the 67 lines. Netanyahu's terms are that all of Jerusalem should become part of Israel.

And give the West Bank back to Jordan!.. Come on, you I and the world know that Israel won't entirely give up on their spoils of war.

These people - Netanyahu/Abbas and those who'll follow are poker players.

They know what the other holds in their hand, and they know exactly how much the other will give up at the end of the day, the stuff in between is just knocking chips off the block.

It would help if Israel would stop the settlements.

Arfan

Settlements is such an ugly word. Why not refer to them as a plantation. In fact why not call it the Ulster Plantation. It has a nice ring to it.

the_syco

thebman wrote: »

Where are the usual defenders of Israel on this thread?

I wouldn't call myself a defender of Israel, although I do take it's side mostly.

However, I see this as a usual tactic. They say they'll do X, and haggle for Y. As for the speech, I'd say it was written after the plans for the houses was done, so most of it was pure sh|te.

I think the USA should buy an island off Greece, fully militarise it, and surround it with land and sea mines: it would be less hassle than Israel in the long run.

KeithAFC

Arfan wrote: »

Settlements is such an ugly word. Why not refer to them as a plantation. In fact why not call it the Ulster Plantation. It has a nice ring to it.

These people won't be forced off the land if a Palestine state does happen. All that will happen is they will form paramilitary units in that area and defend it.

The Ulster plantation is similar but the Scottish roots of Ulster people had taken place long before the actual plantation.

irishh_bob

woodoo wrote: »

If Obama gets back in he will be out for some revenge and will hang Israel out to dry.

guy hasnt the bottle , such is the unconditional support for israel in america , obama has had the preposterous label of anti israel hung on him by republicans , the pallestinians litterally havent a prayer , i realise it would be a monumental signal of surrender but i often wonder were they better move to some arab country with the backing of the UN or whatever in terms of funding , how long can you keep up the fight with such overwhelming odds

irishh_bob

KeithAFC wrote: »

These people won't be forced off the land if a Palestine state does happen. All that will happen is they will form paramilitary units in that area and defend it.

The Ulster plantation is similar but the Scottish roots of Ulster people had taken place long before the actual plantation.

peculiar morality you have running there

The Israeli

Hey guys.
Haven't written for a long time.
Personally I object to building in settlements as it stalls the peace process.
However, in this case specifically, Israel approved the building in Gilo neighbourhood which accordingly to every peace resolution that would be proposed would remain within the Israeli borders.
So, it's not a shocking plan.
It just doesn't look good on the news...

Nodin

The Israeli wrote: »

Hey guys.
Haven't written for a long time.
Personally I object to building in settlements as it stalls the peace process.
However, in this case specifically, Israel approved the building in Gilo neighbourhood which accordingly to every peace resolution that would be proposed would remain within the Israeli borders.
...

....bollocks. A proposal is not a deal.

The Israeli

Apparently, there is a unanimity in this matter.
Every proposal in the last 18 years included Gilo on the Israeli side.
It's a neighbourhood in Jerusalem, and under the Israeli law it is a part of Israel and not a settlement (unlike many other settlements). It houses 32000 Israelis.

Maybe it's not to the liking of many, but it won't be given away under any resolution, so building at it, isn't crucial to the peace process.

Nodin

The Israeli wrote: »

Apparently, there is a unanimity in this matter.
Every proposal in the last 18 years included Gilo on the Israeli side.
It's a neighbourhood in Jerusalem, and under the Israeli law it is a part of Israel and not a settlement (unlike many other settlements). It houses 32000 Israelis.

Maybe it's not to the liking of many, but it won't be given away under any resolution, so building at it, isn't crucial to the peace process.

Israeli law? O obviously that counters everything. Don't mind us.

The Israeli

But you know that many of the lands on which Israelis sit on would be swapped with others that would be given to the Palestinians (someday if and if..).
Gilo will be one of them, as much as Ariel for instance.
The Palestinians know that very well.

One thing that I don't like about it is that it smells a bit political. There are many other areas in Israel crying for development.

Nodin

The Israeli wrote: »

But you know that many of the lands on which Israelis sit on would be swapped with others that would be given to the Palestinians (someday if and if..).
Gilo will be one of them, as much as Ariel for instance.
The Palestinians know that very well..

Possibly. To build on it now presumes, and is a further extension of an illegal colony.

The Israeli wrote: »

One thing that I don't like about it is that it smells a bit political. There are many other areas in Israel crying for development.

No, there are many areas in Israel "crying for development.

The Israeli

"Colony"..
What are you, an "Age of Empires" player?

"Your colony is under attack" or ""More resources are needed".

:P

woodoo

irishh_bob wrote: »

guy hasnt the bottle

And to think of the fawning welcome he got here its f**king embarrassing.

The Israeli state is a monster and Obama is a disgrace for standing by them.

woodoo

Without American support Israel is nothing. So america should draw up the new borders themselves and say here is Israel and here is Palestine. End of. The world is sick of it.

Fred Cohen

Siuin wrote: »

TBH because of my links with Israel - many of my friends live there, as well as my boyfriend who is a soldier- I would usually be sympathetic to Isreal, but when it comes to settlements, I draw the line. It doesn't make me one bit popular with Jewish friends (it's come to the point that we can't talk about politics anymore) but I've been to a settlement in Hebron, I've spoken to the settlers and their head Rabbi, and all I can say is this- the blind racism, disgusting sense of self entitlement and complete disregard for other peoples' rights is unbelievable. Their Rabbi declared to me that "the air is cleaner in Hebron because there are no churches and mosques to pollute it" -- I wonder how the fundamentalist Christians who defend the 'chosen people' would feel about such obvious bigotry. Tbh going home (to Tel Aviv) in the bus, I just felt sick to my stomach from the whole experience. These people had absolutely no regard for human life- here they were, the vast majority being American extremists who had brought their (many) young children into a hostile environment which is a virtual army base- soldiers and wire fencing and guard posts everywhere. Absolutely no quality of life for the settlers, nevermind the Palestinians. And for what? An ideology? It makes me so angry to think about it.

An honest and informative post, thank you. I would agree in the most part but I can never understand why the ordinary Israeli citizen would support this behaviour when it puts their sons and daughters in danger and costs a fortune.

I would appreciate any insights you have on this.

Nodin

The Israeli wrote: »

"Colony"..
What are you, an "Age of Empires" player?

"Your colony is under attack" or ""More resources are needed".

:P

What term do you think best describes them?

Siuin

Fred Cohen wrote: »

An honest and informative post, thank you. I would agree in the most part but I can never understand why the ordinary Israeli citizen would support this behaviour when it puts their sons and daughters in danger and costs a fortune.

I would appreciate any insights you have on this.

Basically, I would not consider a settler an 'ordinary Israeli'. Statistics prove that the majority of Israelis are against the settlements, and when I was in the Hebron settlement I didn't meet one native born Israeli adult- practically all of them were born in America (a huge proportion in Brooklyn) and had become radicalised there, before making aliyah to Israel.

It was blatantly clear what was happening- the settlement basically operates like a cult- there is the charismatic head Rabbi who acts as cult leader and draws in 'followers' by quoting various Torah passages out of context and using his skills as an extremely well versed orator to convince others that it is their duty as Jews to settle the land. He also continuously portrayed Palestinians as foreign usurpers of the land God had promised them, and ridiculed them constantly. When invited into his home, the Rabbi had a huge painting of the temple rebuilt which he had commissioned and he said that he was an active member of a group which was gathering money to make it a reality.

These people basically live in their own little bubble, funded by programmes at home which allow them to sustain and expand their communities. They are completely open about their plans to continue building. As we passed a recent settlement near Jerusalem, the Rabbi remarked at how beautiful it was to see Jewish children playing in the area and a new generation of Jews filling the land. Their extremely conservative values and limited exposure to secular Israeli life ensure that they're isolated enough not to be aware of any other way of living. It was another world entirely, and a very dark insight into dangerously bigoted individuals.

But as I said, this is a minority of Israelis, and the majority see them for what they are- complete and utter fanatics. There are also equally radicalised Palestinians in Nablus, where I can assure you, the average citizen has completely no remorse for the recent murder of a settler family in Itamar, as they felt they 'had it coming to them'. Depressing, to say the least.

Fred Cohen

Siuin wrote: »

Basically, I would not consider a settler an 'ordinary Israeli'. Statistics prove that the majority of Israelis are against the settlements, and when I was in the Hebron settlement I didn't meet one native born Israeli adult- practically all of them were born in America (a huge proportion in Brooklyn) and had become radicalised there, before making aliyah to Israel.

It was blatantly clear what was happening- the settlement basically operates like a cult- there is the charismatic head Rabbi who acts as cult leader and draws in 'followers' by quoting various Torah passages out of context and using his skills as an extremely well versed orator to convince others that it is their duty as Jews to settle the land. He also continuously portrayed Palestinians as foreign usurpers of the land God had promised them, and ridiculed them constantly. When invited into his home, the Rabbi had a huge painting of the temple rebuilt which he had commissioned and he said that he was an active member of a group which was gathering money to make it a reality.

These people basically live in their own little bubble, funded by programmes at home which allow them to sustain and expand their communities. They are completely open about their plans to continue building. As we passed a recent settlement near Jerusalem, the Rabbi remarked at how beautiful it was to see Jewish children playing in the area and a new generation of Jews filling the land. Their extremely conservative values and limited exposure to secular Israeli life ensure that they're isolated enough not to be aware of any other way of living. It was another world entirely, and a very dark insight into dangerously bigoted individuals.

But as I said, this is a minority of Israelis, and the majority see them for what they are- complete and utter fanatics. There are also equally radicalised Palestinians in Nablus, where I can assure you, the average citizen has completely no remorse for the recent murder of a settler family in Itamar, as they felt they 'had it coming to them'. Depressing, to say the least.

That's an eye opener for me, I was of the impression that most of the settlers were from states formerly behind the iron curtain(God protect me from the newly converted).

But again I would ask why middle Israel doe's not question this ?

Why is the setter's tail wagging the country's dog? (I think I'm agreeing with you here but how do we change it?)

Not sure if you are an Israeli citizen,

dlofnep

Did anybody see the Louis Theroux documentary on the Settlers? Really eye opening. He discusses it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TTlK5bOQ2c

SamHarris

woodoo wrote: »

Without American support Israel is nothing. So america should draw up the new borders themselves and say here is Israel and here is Palestine. End of. The world is sick of it.

The UN (and US) did do this. A few times actually. Its actually getting it done thats the hard part.

the_syco

Siuin wrote: »

when I was in the Hebron settlement I didn't meet one native born Israeli adult- practically all of them were born in America (a huge proportion in Brooklyn) and had become radicalised there, before making aliyah to Israel.

Ah, so Israeli government can play the "but they're American citizens" card if the US threatens to pull the rug from under the ex-Americans feet. They are being used as pawns by the Israeli government to advance it's own aims.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Fred Cohen wrote: »

Not sure if you are an Israeli citizen,

Sounds like just about every Israeli I've ever known.

Siuin

the_syco wrote: »

Ah, so Israeli government can play the "but they're American citizens" card if the US threatens to pull the rug from under the ex-Americans feet. They are being used as pawns by the Israeli government to advance it's own aims.

Perhaps, but there are also a great deal of radicalised French and South African citizens there too. But you're right- the monetary factor is a huge consideration. It's also why the Christian fundamentalists are constantly being pandered to- even in Ireland, you'll find there are a great deal of quite hardcore Christians who take a literalistic view of the bible and are the most ardent supporters of *anything* Israel does. Tbh once anyone replaces religion with their own thoughts and reasoning, any hope for a logical outcome go out the window.

Lillie Colossal Raspberry wrote: »

Sounds like just about every Israeli I've ever known.

:P I think I've met quite a lot of Israelis who hold similar views to me, but I'm not Israeli. I could if I wanted to, but I don't think I want to live there personally. Too much emphasis on politics and religion, it gets both tiring and depressing.

Fred Cohen wrote: »

That's an eye opener for me, I was of the impression that most of the settlers were from states formerly behind the iron curtain(God protect me from the newly converted).

But again I would ask why middle Israel doe's not question this ?

Why is the setter's tail wagging the country's dog? (I think I'm agreeing with you here but how do we change it?)

Not sure if you are an Israeli citizen,

For the most part, the few formerly Russian/FSU citizens in the West Bank are purely there for economic reasons rather than ideological. Housing is very cheap, so it's enough incentive for them to live there. Same goes for making aliyah- for the majority of Russian speakers I met in Israel, moving there was a financial rather than a Jewish consideration. Anti-Semitism in such countries encourages them to leave, but ultimately it's the draw of jobs and a better economy.

Those in the rest of Israel who don't support the settlements don't act for a variety of reasons- the stigma of being considered a 'smolani'(lefist) or unpatriotic, the feeling that any attempts to control the actions of religious extremists (citizens or governmental) are futile or, for the most part, apathy.

I think the main issue is that Netanyahu is obliging the settlers too much- I'm not even sure if it's his ideology too or if he's simply trying to appease the religious and Americans, but it's not working for him. Settlers are a fairly ungrateful lot, and all they do is cause misery for everyone else in the country. They deplete Israel of security which could be used elsewhere due to the huge amount of soldiers needed to guard the settlements. They riot, they violate the law, and yet they are constantly catered for with new highways being built to allow them commute to and from Israeli territory for work and whatnot. In a perfect world, anyone who chose to live in occupied territory would be told to fend for themselves because if they're to make a stupid decision they should be held accountable for its consequences.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Siuin wrote: »

:P I think I've met quite a lot of Israelis who hold similar views to me, but I'm not Israeli. I could if I wanted to, but I don't think I want to live there personally. Too much emphasis on politics and religion, it gets both tiring and depressing.

Just about everyone one of my Israeli friends hold the same view's as you in relation to the settlements and settler's.

As I served on the Israeli/Lebanese border I've no experience of either.