The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

Terrlock

Sonics2k wrote: »

Sorry, very quick question. Do you believe the story of Noah to be true?

Soulandform, I'd like your answer too please.

Not only do I believe the story of Noah I would also believe that all the fossils we encounter on the planet were created as a direct result of the flood.

PopePalpatine

So...you call anyone who doesn't believe in the Genesis myth "irrational"...

...and yet you think it's "rational" to believe an old man could have collected two of every animal on Earth and put them on a boat which wouldn't be much longer than Croke Park, let alone feed all of those animals for at least 40 days?

SoulandForm

Sonics2k wrote: »

Sorry, very quick question. Do you believe the story of Noah to be true?

Soulandform, I'd like your answer too please.

I believe that basics are true; I believe that the measurements of the Ark though are symbolical.

There was definitely a global flood, and definitely a Prophet who survived it with his family through the aid of God on an ark that God told him to build.

SoulandForm

Actually the whole story of Noah and the events surrounding the flood are very important for our time.

"And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man."

Luke 17:26.

Corkfeen

These are some pretty bizarre statements to be certain of. Where exactly did the immense quantity of water required for a global flood come from?

SoulandForm

Corkfeen wrote: »

These are some pretty bizarre statements to be certain of. Where exactly did the immense quantity of water required for a global flood come from?

If God can creates suns and planets and angels Im sure He is more than capable of arranging a bit of water.

Before that time some angels (referred to as Sons of God in the Genesis account, just like angels are too in the Book of Job) were seduced by the beauty of the daughters of men. We know from the account of Abraham and the angels that they can materialize into bodies like our own when they enter this dimension. They corrupted all life on earth- probably through genetic engineering, etc and this was the reason for the flood. The reason that Noah was saved was that he was "perfect in his generation" (meaning his genes had not been tampered with).

SoulandForm

This is well worth listening too.

Sonics2k

Terrlock wrote: »

Not only do I believe the story of Noah I would also believe that all the fossils we encounter on the planet were created as a direct result of the flood.

So just to clarify, you are of the belief that Noah was able to fit approximately 1,000,000 x2 types of animals on to a boat some 450ft long in a day, was able to fully sustain their diets, without them killing each other or his family for 40 days during a storm that some how managed to rain high enough water to cover Mount Everest, which is over 29,000ft high, which then somehow disappeared over night into nothingness.

Please note, my figure of 1,000,000 does not include fish or similar types.
Also, please note that no other civilisation has any record relating to this in any way.
Please, tell me again how atheists ignore logic.

Sonics2k

SoulandForm wrote: »

If God can creates suns and planets and angels Im sure He is more than capable of arranging a bit of water.

Which in turn raises an interesting dilemma.

God apparently created the world, planets, sun and universe, but for some reason felt the need to use a flood to kill everyone.
Why could he simply not click his fingers, so to speak, and remove them all.
His reasoning for killing everyone was because people had become wicked, but does this include the innocent, children and the unborn? Why the horrible death of drowning, widely considered to be one of the most painful and awful forms of death?

SoulandForm

Read the rest of my post and listen to the youtube video to find out why.

Delirium

why don't you explain it in your own words rather than require someone to spend an hour watching a youtube video?

SoulandForm

koth wrote: »

why don't you explain it in your own words rather than require someone to spend an hour watching a youtube video?

I did;

"Before that time some angels (referred to as Sons of God in the Genesis account, just like angels are too in the Book of Job) were seduced by the beauty of the daughters of men. We know from the account of Abraham and the angels that they can materialize into bodies like our own when they enter this dimension. They corrupted all life on earth- probably through genetic engineering, etc and this was the reason for the flood. The reason that Noah was saved was that he was "perfect in his generation" (meaning his genes had not been tampered with)."

tim3000

SoulandForm wrote: »

Read the rest of my post and listen to the youtube video to find out why.

Just so I know, you would be a Young Earth Creationist, believing that the Earth is less than 10000 years of age? And the Bibles account of Creation is true forsaking all evidence to the contrary?

Sonics2k

SoulandForm wrote: »

Read the rest of my post and listen to the youtube video to find out why.

I'd like you to clarify it yourself please.

I read your post and it's gibberish really, especially jumping to the idea of genetic manipulation in a society that had barely evolved past the aqueduct and internal plumbing hadn't even been thought of.

Or you're possibly saying that angels going into the bodies of humans caused it, meaning it was actually the angels fault that man had become corrupted over time, but God decided to kill man anyway.

Interesting.

SoulandForm

tim3000 wrote: »

Just so I know, you would be a Young Earth Creationist, believing that the Earth is less than 10000 years of age? And the Bibles account of Creation is true forsaking all evidence to the contrary?

No Im not a young earth Creationist but I respect them.

I do however believe that humans were specially created at one point around the time that the Bible gives.

SoulandForm

Sonics2k wrote: »

I'd like you to clarify it yourself please.

I read your post and it's gibberish really, especially jumping to the idea of genetic manipulation in a society that had barely evolved past the aqueduct and internal plumbing hadn't even been thought of.

Actually there is evidence of advanced civilizations in pre-history. I would recommend the works of Graham Hanock. Remember that it was fallen angels who thought people these technologies.

SoulandForm

Sonics2k wrote: »

Or you're possibly saying that angels going into the bodies of humans caused it, meaning it was actually the angels fault that man had become corrupted over time, but God decided to kill man anyway.

Interesting.

These angels had sex with earthly women producing this new semi-human species called the Nephilim who were given to all sorts of evils (cannibalism among them); they totally corrupted on every level the pre-flood world hence the necesscity of the flood.

Of course we know that Christ preached the people who died in the flood in hades.

Sonics2k

SoulandForm wrote: »

Actually there is evidence of advanced civilizations in pre-history. I would recommend the works of Graham Hanock. Remember that it was fallen angels who thought people these technologies.

I'm familiar with his work, and frankly is hysterical in a facepalm kind of easy.

His assertions are nonsense, taking massive leaps of logic to reach his prearranged conclusions formed in his mind, possibly while listening to Yellow Submarine and looking at the pretty colours.

The ideas he has brought forward are no different to the Aliens did it theory, and easily relatable to a recent The Truth About Zombies show by National Geographic I watched on Netflix the other night. Well worth a watch by the way, the comparisons made are exactly how Hancock reaches his conclusions.

tim3000

SoulandForm wrote: »

No Im not a young earth Creationist but I respect them.

I do however believe that humans were specially created at one point around the time that the Bible gives.

I see. You do know that we share greater than 95% of our DNA with chimps? We are not a wholly special or unique species. We are just the last in a long and very well understood Genus called Homo that can trace is origins back some 2 million years or more.

If (and its a big if) we were created specially, when then have we vestigial organs? Nictitating membranes? DNA that can spontaneously mutate and give rise to cancers?

Corkfeen

Sonics2k wrote: »

So just to clarify, you are of the belief that Noah was able to fit approximately 1,000,000 x2 types of animals on to a boat some 450ft long in a day, was able to fully sustain their diets, without them killing each other or his family for 40 days during a storm that some how managed to rain high enough water to cover Mount Everest, which is over 29,000ft high, which then somehow disappeared over night into nothingness.

Please note, my figure of 1,000,000 does not include fish or similar types.
Also, please note that no other civilisation has any record relating to this in any way.
Please, tell me again how atheists ignore logic.

Plus you've got the factor of how disease would have thrived on such a boat,it'd make Dickensian London look roomy.

SoulandForm wrote: »

Actually there is evidence of advanced civilizations in pre-history. I would recommend the works of Graham Hanock. Remember that it was fallen angels who thought people these technologies.

Please expand upon this. :rolleyes: The aqueducts came were first developed in ancient Rome,no fallen angels were involved in the making. Internal plumbing was once again as a result of the Greeks and Romans. Prehistory had pit toilets and the likes so the fallen angels had really weak technologies.

SoulandForm

The course animal bodies that we have now are the product of the fall; originally we had much more subtle bodies similar to those of the angels.

"For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour."

Psalm 8:5.

I feel like a bit of a Sunday School teacher at the moment!

tim3000 wrote: »

I see. You do know that we share greater than 95% of our DNA with chimps? We are not a wholly special or unique species. We are just the last in a long and very well understood Genus called Homo that can trace is origins back some 2 million years or more.

If (and its a big if) we were created specially, when then have we vestigial organs? Nictitating membranes? DNA that can spontaneously mutate and give rise to cancers?

Sonics2k

SoulandForm wrote: »

These angels had sex with earthly women producing this new semi-human species called the Nephilim who were given to all sorts of evils (cannibalism among them); they totally corrupted on every level the pre-flood world hence the necesscity of the flood.

Of course we know that Christ preached the people who died in the flood in hades.

The Nephilim are mentioned some four times in the Torah, and there is 100% no evidence to show they ever existed. Again, much like the Flood, no other civilization makes any reference to them.

But again, all that does is prove my point.

Man itself had done nothing wrong, the actions of Angels caused an abnormality in humans which therefore resulted in God punishing and killing man kind. Somehow He didn't think this may come up as an issue back when his soldiers were off making babies.

Brian Shanahan

Terrlock wrote: »

Not only do I believe the story of Noah I would also believe that all the fossils we encounter on the planet were created as a direct result of the flood.

SoulandForm wrote: »

I believe that basics are true; I believe that the measurements of the Ark though are symbolical.

There was definitely a global flood, and definitely a Prophet who survived it with his family through the aid of God on an ark that God told him to build.

Where did they get all the water? For the "flood" to be global and on the scale described you'd need c. 4.5bn cubic kilometres of water, whereas the sum total of Earth's water is 1.386bn cubic kilometres. So for the biblical flood to be true you'd need the Earth to gain twice it's current amount in water, precipitate it, and lose it again, all within the space of forty days. This kind of mass transfer of water on that rapid scale would leave evidence behind which we simply don't have.

Also how do you reconcile the fact that the earth is, roughly, spherical, whereas in the bible it is maintained that it is flat? Or the fact that the bible details two mutually contradictory creation myths?

You see, to be a biblical literalist one has to practise the ideology of doublethink, so eloquently expressed by O'Brien:

The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them... To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just as long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies – all this is indispensably necessary. Even in using the word doublethink it is necessary to exercise doublethink. For by using the word one admits that one is tampering with reality; by a fresh act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth.

Brian Shanahan

Sonics2k wrote: »

So just to clarify, you are of the belief that Noah was able to fit approximately 1,000,000 x2 types of animals on to a boat some 450ft long in a day, was able to fully sustain their diets, without them killing each other or his family for 40 days during a storm that some how managed to rain high enough water to cover Mount Everest, which is over 29,000ft high, which then somehow disappeared over night into nothingness.

Please note, my figure of 1,000,000 does not include fish or similar types.
Also, please note that no other civilisation has any record relating to this in any way.
Please, tell me again how atheists ignore logic.

Hell, according to our best guess, 1m pairs of different species wouldn't be sufficient to save all the beetles currently in existence.

Midlife Crashes

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Where did they get all the water? For the "flood" to be global and on the scale described you'd need c. 4.5bn cubic kilometres of water, whereas the sum total of Earth's water is 1.386bn cubic kilometres. So for the biblical flood to be true you'd need the Earth to gain twice it's current amount in water, precipitate it, and lose it again, all within the space of forty days. This kind of mass transfer of water on that rapid scale would leave evidence behind which we simply don't have. :

Except it was never claimed to be a global flood..

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Also how do you reconcile the fact that the earth is, roughly, spherical, whereas in the bible it is maintained that it is flat? :

Except The Bible never claims that the world is flat..

Sonics2k

Midlife Crashes wrote: »

Except it was never claimed to be a global flood..

That's what Christians and Creationists claim.

Midlife Crashes wrote: »

Except The Bible never claims that the world is flat..

Yes, yes it does.

Safehands

Sonics2k wrote: »

So just to clarify, you are of the belief that Noah was able to fit approximately 1,000,000 x2 types of animals on to a boat some 450ft long in a day, was able to fully sustain their diets, without them killing each other or his family for 40 days during a storm that some how managed to rain high enough water to cover Mount Everest, which is over 29,000ft high, which then somehow disappeared over night into nothingness.

There are so many reasons to suggest that the story of the flood was at best, an extreme exaggeration. To state, as an absolute fact that Ireland and England were submerged under 4 - 5 miles of water is ridiculous. The whole story defies any logic and is clearly not based on any factual evidence.

Brian Shanahan

Midlife Crashes wrote: »

Except it was never claimed to be a global flood..



Except The Bible never claims that the world is flat..

But both things are exactly what the bible, repeatedly, claims, and never tries to refute.

@Safehands, but unfortunately that is the kind of **** that we have to repeatedly refute both here and elsewhere. For example we have JC over at A&A trying to convince us that a ship made out of cedarwood would withstand the kind of mega-tsunamis created by conditions which would cause continents to part at the rate of kilometres per day (and also the world wouldn't fly apart due to the stresses involved). This despite us showing him that modern ships, which are far better able to handle sea voyage conditions, cannot withstand waves of only 20m. His response "a replica, which wasn't built to the same standard as the biblical ark, still floats, therefore the ark must have survived" despite this replica being permanently in dock, never having sailed anywhere.

Safehands

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

But both things are exactly what the bible, repeatedly, claims, and never tries to refute.

@Safehands, but unfortunately that is the kind of **** that we have to repeatedly refute both here and elsewhere. For example we have JC over at A&A trying to convince us that a ship made out of cedarwood would withstand the kind of mega-tsunamis created by conditions which would cause continents to part at the rate of kilometres per day (and also the world wouldn't fly apart due to the stresses involved). This despite us showing him that modern ships, which are far better able to handle sea voyage conditions, cannot withstand waves of only 20m. His response "a replica, which wasn't built to the same standard as the biblical ark, still floats, therefore the ark must have survived" despite this replica being permanently in dock, never having sailed anywhere.

A lot of people are brainwashed from a very early age. They take evidence, logic and science, lock it in a un-openable box, then they produce a book, written at a time when most learned people thought the sun went around the flat Earth, and then they tell us "This is the truth, this how it all happened folks'.
Noah knew about polar bears, caymens and alligators, scorpions and anacondas. He knew which were male and which were female. He gathered them all up, put them on a boat. Then he gathered all of their dietary needs, some of which would have been alive and, without any form of ice or deep freezes, he stored this eclectic range of foodstuffs for at least 6 weeks. Then he sailed around the world dropping them off in different countries for them to live and breed. The kangaroos and Wallabies were dropped of in Austalia, then he went to the south pole and dropped off the two penguins, before heading north to find a home for the polar bears and their young cubs who were born on the ark. Of course he lived until he was a ripe old age, about 950 years. So he had loads of time to do his work.
Brian, how can you possibly doubt the authenticity of this story?

Brian Shanahan

Safehands wrote: »

Brian, how can you possibly doubt the authenticity of this story?

The twin powers of sarcasm and scepticism, my friend. They are good tools.