What do Vegetarians Want to see on a menu?

Dublin Vegetarian Reviewer

My point wasn't with regard to the OP. The issue is that if you are already in a restaurant and the chef asks you to design a menu and instruct him/her in the cooking of it should you pay the professional chef (who by virtue of his/her job should have plenty ideas or else why is he/she accepting a salary for professional culinary services) or should the chef pay you for the cooking lesson?

Shenshen

Dublin Vegetarian Reviewer wrote: »

My point wasn't with regard to the OP. The issue is that if you are already in a restaurant and the chef asks you to design a menu and instruct him/her in the cooking of it should you pay the professional chef (who by virtue of his/her job should have plenty ideas or else why is he/she accepting a salary for professional culinary services) or should the chef pay you for the cooking lesson?

Again, considering that in the past I've been charged over €20 for a plate of pasta with some sort of sauce, I consider making a suggestion to the chef the lesser of two evils, if it means I'll end up getting a decent meal for my money.

That said, if I have a choice of restaurant, I will of course pick the one where I know I'll have a choice of dishes and the chef knows what he's doing. It's just that sometimes I do not have that choice.

I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one on this board who had to piece together a main course out of starters and side dishes for herself on numerous occasions in various restaurants because the veggie option (if there was one) left a lot to be desired.

Dublin Vegetarian Reviewer

I agree that it is better to make a suggestion than to accept pasta and tomato sauce or whatever other dreary thing that a chef lacking professional skills might offer (personally I won't enter such a restaurant given the choice).

However, I also feel it necessary to stress the point that this is not an acceptable solution. Many restaurants, and indeed vegetarian/vegan customers, think that it is reasonable that the customer should design a menu and instruct the chef in how to cook it. At the very least I would expect a big discount for having to do this work for the restaurant.

If a customer were to go to a hairdresser and ask the hairdresser to dry their hair straight and was told by the trained hairdresser, who is charging full price, that he/she doesn't know how to dry hair straight, would customers find it reasonable to educate the hairdresser and then pay the full price? The same applies if you go to a doctor and show him/her a rash. If the doctor told the patient that he/she doesn't know how to diagnose rashes would you educate him/her and then pay the doctor the full price?

I fail to understand why vegetarian/vegan restaurant customers tolerate the fact that the chef does not know how to cook without meat and then asks the customers to teach them. In these cases the chefs get free cooking lessons and the customer works for the restaurant, all the while paying the full price of a meal.

Shenshen

Dublin Vegetarian Reviewer wrote: »

I agree that it is better to make a suggestion than to accept pasta and tomato sauce or whatever other dreary thing that a chef lacking professional skills might offer (personally I won't enter such a restaurant given the choice).

However, I also feel it necessary to stress the point that this is not an acceptable solution. Many restaurants, and indeed vegetarian/vegan customers, think that it is reasonable that the customer should design a menu and instruct the chef in how to cook it. At the very least I would expect a big discount for having to do this work for the restaurant.

If a customer were to go to a hairdresser and ask the hairdresser to dry their hair straight and was told by the trained hairdresser, who is charging full price, that he/she doesn't know how to dry hair straight, would customers find it reasonable to educate the hairdresser and then pay the full price? The same applies if you go to a doctor and show him/her a rash. If the doctor told the patient that he/she doesn't know how to diagnose rashes would you educate him/her and then pay the doctor the full price?

I fail to understand why vegetarian/vegan restaurant customers tolerate the fact that the chef does not know how to cook without meat and then asks the customers to teach them. In these cases the chefs get free cooking lessons and the customer works for the restaurant, all the while paying the full price of a meal.

I hadn't actually thought of entering the kitchen, taking stock of the larder and then hand the chef a detailed recipe suggestion.
My thoughts were more along the line of suggesting what other posters in this thread have suggested, providing ideas rather than the finished product.
A bit like the hairdresser in your example, you tell the hairdresser what you want done, and the hairdresser does it.

As such, I'm actually very happy for someone in the restaurant business to go around asking vegetarians what they would like to see on a menu...
I understand that someone who isn't themselves a vegetarian might struggle with putting together more than one nice option.

Dublin Vegetarian Reviewer

Shenshen wrote: »

I understand that someone who isn't themselves a vegetarian might struggle with putting together more than one nice option.

Ah, well, you see, this is the fundamental difference in our thoughts on the matter. I can understand why somebody who rarely cooks and who is a teacher, cleaner, dentist, etc., etc., by profession might not be able to think of dishes which do not include meat BUT a professionally trained chef should know how to put food, any food, together in a tasty way, if they can't then they are in the wrong job.

If you are a good chef you can open the fridge and put together any number of tasty meals even if there is no meat in there...anything else is just somebody who is cooking by numbers...

Dublin Vegetarian Reviewer

Shenshen wrote: »

A bit like the hairdresser in your example, you tell the hairdresser what you want done, and the hairdresser does it.

The hairdresser in my example did not know how to dry hair straight A bit like chefs who need to ask you what a vegetarian meal might consist of...;)

mrsnicey

FAO Dublin Vegetarian Reviewer! I am a bit peed off with your comments. We do have a head chef, a very good head chef in fact and at a recent meeting I brought up the fact that we have a few regulars eating in our establishment that are vegetarian and I suggested we make more of an effort to cater for these customers on our next menu change. He, like most chefs is a blue steak, pink pork, raw tuna type of guy who has no insight into "what a vegetarian would like to see on a menu". We are out to cater for vegetarians here, to improve our menu, and too be honest people like you dissing our attempts to educate ourselves about "what a vegetarian would like to see on a menu" is disheartening and makes me wonder why we bother On a positive note, thanks to all who have given us some fantastic idea's and our "vegetarian pasta of the day" option has well and truly left the building

JennaJameson

Meals that are genuinely vegetarian, for a start. Was asking in a Thai restaurant in Malahide once if I was really a vegetarian after ordering the Thai red curry.

I replied that I was, and asked why, and the waitress replied "Oh, it's just that we cook some of the food in fish paste, but we can just take that out."

The menu said the dish was vegetarian. I'd almost understand the fish thing if the menu had said it was a "vegetable" curry, but not when it clearly said vegetarian.

In restaurants which say their meals are "cooked to order", I fail to see why they can't simply make the same meals but without the meat, when asked. I've asked that question in several establishments, to no avail. Considering a vegetarian option would be cheaper for them, and they would still probably charge me the same price as the option with meat, I fail to see why they refuse.

I freaking love pasta, but there has to be more than just pasta on the menu. I can make pasta and tomato sauce at home for a couple of euro. I don't want to be charged €20 for it.

I've no problem with pasta as a vegetarian option, so long as it's not the only option, and so long as it isn't tagliatelle (was talking with a fellow vege the last day, can't figure out why the vege option is nearly always tagliatelle or penne. Imagination people!)

Too often I go to restaurants, and for whatever reason, the vegetarian main dish option is a cold dish. This drives me cracked.

I love salad, but again, not when it's the only option on the menu. I'm looking for somewhere good to go for dinner in Dublin at the moment, but so many places have plain salad as their only meat-free starter *yawn*

Protein. Super important. No meal is nutritionally complete without protein. I won't eat in a restaurant that doesn't at least has tofu (though I don't eat it normally).

NO FISH. Oh my god, I dunno how many times I've seen a menu and asked if there was a vegetarian option, only to get a funny look and "Eh...there's fish..." No. No.

I have to say, it is refreshing to be asked what to put on a menu. I get that most chefs aren't as experienced with cooking vegetarian dishes as they are with meat dishes- after all, the vast majority of their customers will happily eat meat. It's understandable, and at least someone is trying to rectify the salad-and-pasta situation so many of us have moaned about.

MissFlitworth

Dublin Vegetarian Reviewer wrote: »

It is bewildering that somebody would think that a vegetarian/vegan would seek food "just like chicken", etc. Bizarre.

And yet lots and lots of vegetarians do. Linda McCartney didn't become a bazillionaire by magic.

OP I think it's fantastic you're asking for inspiration, lots of my favourite restaurants are stalked by me on Twitter and would regularly ask people what they'd like to see on the next menu. Last one I recall was Fallon & Byrne asking what kind of cakes people would like to see in the coffee area & what they'd like to have in the new newstand & I don't remember them getting any sneery remarks about how they shouldn't be working as chefs.

It might actually be an idea to pigeon hole your veggie regulars next time they come in and ask them for some ideas.

I'm not a veggie myself but I eat out with vegetarians quite a lot & some of them would love to have the option of having the same thing everyone else is having but with the meat swapped out, especially the ones who are vegetarian for moral reasons but still actually really like meat. Veggie bangers & Mash with veggie friendly gravy, tvp/beanburger quarter pounder, vegetarian chili, all that sort of thing.

What I often find when eating out is that there's one vegetarian dish on the menu & it has a very polarising ingredient in it, ie one that people either love or really strongly dislike. Mushrooms would be the main one I can think of but goats cheese as well. It has in the past meant us moving to another restaurant because otherwise vegetarian buddies would be stuck eating a selection of sideorders!

I think Talbot 101 in Dublin do vegetarian really well, they always have a couple of vegetarian options on the menu for mains and for starters and they always tend to be dishes that even meat eaters in my group will go for over what they'd normally order

There's no one blanket style of cooking that's going to suit all vegetarians but you'll always get people happy that you tried something different for them or that you understand what is & isn't vegetarian on your menu. I've tried a fair few spoonfulls of vegetable soup that clearly had chicken stock in them for example

Tar.Aldarion

I agree, it's not bizarre at all, most my veggie friends go wild on the stuff. And if something tasted like steak I'd buy it every day.

I agree about even simple things like veggie sausages and mash etc which are in diff countries and not here, or actually nice veggie nut burgers and so forth, which you can get in pubs in britain. If you dont like mushrooms and goats cheese in ireland then you are screwed, luckily I love them.

101 talbot as you say, is amazing. I love it! Brought my family/cousins there twice and they loved my veggie food so much. Even though they were so sceptical! They have the nicest food there.And the menu changes a lot, a pleasant change. Every time I see it I want to go in


I wish more people are doing what you are mrsnicey, fair play to you.

schemingbohemia

Dublin Vegetarian Reviewer wrote: »

No veg lasagne, no risotto, no stir fry, no pasta and tomato sauce, no butternut squash, no cheese dishes. Use aubergine, avocado, courgette, endive...In short, don't serve anything that is a *vegetarian option* in any other restaurant. Also, the term *vegetarian option* is offensive. Who would like to go out for dinner and have no choice about what they eat? Also, don't ask vegetarians to tell you want they want in the restaurant...if I wanted to spend the evening designing my own meal I'd cook myself, the professional chef should have lots of interesting suggestions to hand.

Cornucopia's menu is actually less than inspired. A fantastic veggie restaurant is in Brighton, called Terre-a-Terre. Check out their menu.

Dublin Vegetarian Reviewer wrote: »

Do you not think also that the customer who is obliged to instruct a professional chef (in receipt of a salary which the customers pay) in how to prepare a meal should be paid for their service instead of the other way around?

Dublin Vegetarian Reviewer wrote: »

My point wasn't with regard to the OP. The issue is that if you are already in a restaurant and the chef asks you to design a menu and instruct him/her in the cooking of it should you pay the professional chef (who by virtue of his/her job should have plenty ideas or else why is he/she accepting a salary for professional culinary services) or should the chef pay you for the cooking lesson?

Could your posts be more pompous?

For once, a restaurant owner asks vegetarians what they would like on a menu and you go off on a rant looking to be paid for advice. You subsequently tried to spin it that it wasn't in relation to the OP, well then, start a new thread so that there's no confusion.

Dublin Vegetarian Reviewer

mrsnicey wrote: »

He, like most chefs is a blue steak, pink pork, raw tuna type of guy who has no insight into "what a vegetarian would like to see on a menu".

Personally I wouldn't hire a chef who lacks "insight" and does not know how to cook without meat, as you yourself state, especially if I had to pay him a salary and then go on a public forum looking for advice to pass on to him. Why not send him on a cooking course? Or, given that you state that he is unable to imagine what a meal might consist of sans meat why don't you hire a chef who has the professional skills that your restaurant requires (you clearly state that he doesn't have all the cooking skills that you require him to have)?

I don't understand how you can claim to "have a very good head chef" when you are here seeking advice because he has no ideas Don't you think that a head chef (or any chef) should be full of ideas for meals that don't include meat?

That said, I do think that it is a good idea that you seek advice (given that your chef failed you) rather than serve "pasta of the day". However, as I have already stated, I won't impart advice for free when I'm in a restaurant. It's the chef's job to make suggestions to the customer, not the other way round.:) I don't expect to have to tell a medical doctor how to bandage a hand, nor do I expect to have to tell a chef how and what to cook.

schemingbohemia

Numpty!

Mark Hamill

It really is great, mrsnicey, that you are here looking for suggestions to make your menu more appetising, but I have to say that, in principle, I agree with Dublin Vegetarian Reviewer. If your chef is, as you put it:

mrsnicey wrote: »

a blue steak, pink pork, raw tuna type of guy who has no insight into "what a vegetarian would like to see on a menu".

then he sounds like a boring, completely unimaginative, one note chef, the same as in most of the restaurants bemoaned by vegetarians as inadequate and not worth it. I would question whether, even with all the suggestions here, whether he could manage to even cook the meals properly, as if he has no insight as to what a veggie wants in the menu, then he will be unlikely to have insight into what the food should taste like. Having a head chef, in restaurant aiming to entice veggies, with so little insight into what to feed vegetarians makes about as much sense as a head chef in a steak house who knows nothing beyond making the mash potatoes on the side.

A truly good head chef should be able to cook a variety of meals from a variety of ingredients, and should not get totally lost if there one staple is missing be it steak or fish or potatoes etc. Why is it that Indian restaurants are the only ones that seem to get this? Even a small, omnivorous, Indian restaurant will have a variety of different types of starters and curries (chick pea, potato, spinach,mix veg, paneer, biryani) suitable for veggies.

Mark Hamill

MissFlitworth wrote: »

And yet lots and lots of vegetarians do. Linda McCartney didn't become a bazillionaire by magic.

While I like some of the imitation meat products from the shops, and it wouldn't be the worst thing if they where offered in restaurants, I would prefer if they weren't. I dont really want to pay €10 or €20 for the privilege of eating something i can slap up at home for the equivalent of a €1. In a restaurant, I want something unique, something that shows that I'm in somewhere where they made the food themselves. If I get a starter described as pomme de terre légèrement coupée en tranches avec une bâche d'oignon de fromage et de ressort de cheddar, I dont want to be given a packet of cheese and onion tayto.

pinkmonkey045

Mrs. Nicey,

You should go visit Blazing Salads [Drury Street] and Cafe fresh [Powerscourt Centre] if you want to draw some divine inspiration.

Undercover spying, you can see how the pros do veggie food! Pick your favourite few, and rotate in your menus*

*the author of this comment does not endorse stealing.

There are a few veggie cooking courses in Dublin too....could go as an undercover chef recipe stealer*

*same again.

G'luck!

Peanut

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Why is it that Indian restaurants are the only ones that seem to get this? Even a small, omnivorous, Indian restaurant will have a variety of different types of starters and curries (chick pea, potato, spinach,mix veg, paneer, biryani) suitable for veggies.

I think that's probably just due to the number of vegetarians in India to be honest, so a lot more recipe variations have come about.

Mark Hamill

Peanut wrote: »

I think that's probably just due to the number of vegetarians in India to be honest, so a lot more recipe variations have come about.

I'm sure that is part of it, but its not like there is a massive variation between indian vegetable dishes and indian meat dishes, meat wouldn't be considered the centre or primary flavour in your meal, just one of many that can changed at will.

mrsnicey

Dublin Vegetarian Reviewer wrote: »

My point wasn't with regard to the OP. The issue is that if you are already in a restaurant and the chef asks you to design a menu and instruct him/her in the cooking of it should you pay the professional chef (who by virtue of his/her job should have plenty ideas or else why is he/she accepting a salary for professional culinary services) or should the chef pay you for the cooking lesson?

Now you are getting off totally off track with all your bull. What I came on to boards for was for the chef and I to get a better insight into what vegetarians would like to see on a menu because neither of us are vegetarian and who knows better than a vegetarian themselves to tell us what they are looking for! Whats the harm in that? We have to constantly strive to improve our business and keep customers happy, to keep our employees in a job to pay suppliers, do you realise the alarming statistics that show how many small restaurants close every single week? I stand by what I said about our chef being an excellent chef, so what if he doesn't have an insight into what vegetarians want from a restaurant, take for example the 2 Michelin star restaurant Patrick Guilbaud's, theeee finest eaterie in Ireland (according to the experts) their executive/head chef is probably on more money than any of us could imagine and whats on their vegetarian menu......varients of goats cheese, pasta and mushrooms, all of these 3 have been mentioned in most posts as being pet peeves, what people are sick of seeing. So shoot me for want to offer exciting, interesting and fabulously tasty vegetarian food to my customers! So Dublin Vegetarian Reviewer add something positive to this thread or please don't bother with the rest of us here who are trying to make a small bit of a difference, for the better may I add!

itsalongday

mrsnicey wrote: »

Now you are getting off totally off track with all your bull. What I came on to boards for was for the chef and I to get a better insight into what vegetarians would like to see on a menu because neither of us are vegetarian and who knows better than a vegetarian themselves to tell us what they are looking for! Whats the harm in that? We have to constantly strive to improve our business and keep customers happy, to keep our employees in a job to pay suppliers, do you realise the alarming statistics that show how many small restaurants close every single week? I stand by what I said about our chef being an excellent chef, so what if he doesn't have an insight into what vegetarians want from a restaurant, take for example the 2 Michelin star restaurant Patrick Guilbaud's, theeee finest eaterie in Ireland (according to the experts) their executive/head chef is probably on more money than any of us could imagine and whats on their vegetarian menu......varients of goats cheese, pasta and mushrooms, all of these 3 have been mentioned in most posts as being pet peeves, what people are sick of seeing. So shoot me for want to offer exciting, interesting and fabulously tasty vegetarian food to my customers! So Dublin Vegetarian Reviewer add something positive to this thread or please don't bother with the rest of us here who are trying to make a small bit of a difference, for the better may I add!

oh mrsnicey i like it...... try think of savoury meat and fish dishes that are quite popular, is there a version of this dish you could think of with no meat yet a nice veg / pulse etc instead, think of having slightly crushed cooked lentils for burgers, veggie cottage pie etc, curries and wet dishes are great with chickpeas, lentils, beans etc - individul bakes will be cost effective, present well and can be changes around easily and presented in cool little pots / dishes is sometimes 1/3 of the battle, when your tired of these, and maybe you alrerady are, take a new look at it, think of all desserts on offer and try to imagine if you could turn your favourite sweet into savoury, think outside the box, sweet potato and ginger creme brulee with parmesan crisp on top as a starter - wilted rocket wild mushroom and goats cheese bread and butter pudding - roast shallot, creamy brie and hazelnut pesto tart tatin - i dont think all veggies ( of which i am not but am a chef) arent fed up of cheese and pasta, its just the same bloody dish al the time with it thats all, tempura of spiced vegetables with a four cheese fondue - try a nut roast scented with honey and tarragon stuffed inside a roulade of crispy herbed potato rosti topped with a dollop of flavoured hollandaise ( tabasco, worchestershire sce, mint and tarragon) ....... maybe you or the chef doesnt need a recipe just inspiration or a guide to thinking in a different way, trust me i stay awake at nights thinking of this stuff ( especially after a glass of vino ;0) ) , very exciting stuff, thats the beuty of food, best of luck with the restuarant, tough biz at the moment i know , let me know what you think or how you get on or come up with and dont mind the posts by people who just need to be heard speaking nonsense, hope this helps, ill happily give you recipes or more ideas if you bouce some ideas off me.......

Shenshen

itsalongday wrote: »

oh mrsnicey i like it...... try think of savoury meat and fish dishes that are quite popular, is there a version of this dish you could think of with no meat yet a nice veg / pulse etc instead, think of having slightly crushed cooked lentils for burgers, veggie cottage pie etc, curries and wet dishes are great with chickpeas, lentils, beans etc - individul bakes will be cost effective, present well and can be changes around easily and presented in cool little pots / dishes is sometimes 1/3 of the battle, when your tired of these, and maybe you alrerady are, take a new look at it, think of all desserts on offer and try to imagine if you could turn your favourite sweet into savoury, think outside the box, sweet potato and ginger creme brulee with parmesan crisp on top as a starter - wilted rocket wild mushroom and goats cheese bread and butter pudding - roast shallot, creamy brie and hazelnut pesto tart tatin - i dont think all veggies ( of which i am not but am a chef) arent fed up of cheese and pasta, its just the same bloody dish al the time with it thats all, tempura of spiced vegetables with a four cheese fondue - try a nut roast scented with honey and tarragon stuffed inside a roulade of crispy herbed potato rosti topped with a dollop of flavoured hollandaise ( tabasco, worchestershire sce, mint and tarragon) ....... maybe you or the chef doesnt need a recipe just inspiration or a guide to thinking in a different way, trust me i stay awake at nights thinking of this stuff ( especially after a glass of vino ;0) ) , very exciting stuff, thats the beuty of food, best of luck with the restuarant, tough biz at the moment i know , let me know what you think or how you get on or come up with and dont mind the posts by people who just need to be heard speaking nonsense, hope this helps, ill happily give you recipes or more ideas if you bouce some ideas off me.......

Wow... I'm not a chef or anything, but I LOVE those ideas for savoury pudding-inspired dishes!!! Fantastic ideas!:D

Mark Hamill

mrsnicey wrote: »

Now you are getting off totally off track with all your bull. What I came on to boards for was for the chef and I to get a better insight into what vegetarians would like to see on a menu because neither of us are vegetarian and who knows better than a vegetarian themselves to tell us what they are looking for!

Who knows better than anyone what they are looking for? No-one, that's who, and yet chefs can fill menus to satisfy most omnivores without much previous interaction with them. Vegetarians and vegans are not different species to omnivores, our tastes work much the same, we just dont eat meat. And what we have bemoaned on this thread, any omnivore would bemoan just as much: boring food, with little to no variation.

As I said before, what you are doing is a good thing (its certainly better than changing nothing), but dont try to fool yourself about why you are here. You are here because he is not capable to do his job as head chef (no matter how good of a fish chef, roast chef or grill chef he might be). Nothing suggested so far has been complicated or extreme (various types of vegetable curries, quiches, noodles, even store bought fake meat) . A good head chef should know how to take a few vegetables and make them taste nice, the art of combining flavours and textures in food exists outside of animal flesh.

Dublin Vegetarian Reviewer

Mark Hamill wrote: »

...but dont try to fool yourself about why you are here. You are here because he is not capable to do his job as head chef (no matter how good of a fish chef, roast chef or grill chef he might be). Nothing suggested so far has been complicated or extreme (various types of vegetable curries, quiches, noodles, even store bought fake meat) . A good head chef should know how to take a few vegetables and make them taste nice, the art of combining flavours and textures in food exists outside of animal flesh.

Exactly.