Moderating moderaters

denballs

I will not point out any names and i will not say every mod is like this, but over my time here i have noticed mod,s who dont exactly do their job by the book, and base their decisions on personal feeling.

I have seen others and personally been, warned for somthing dozens of people have done in the same thread.

I would like a way to easily dispute a moderaters ruling and have a superior look at it and give a logical decision over the disagreement within an hour or two.

denballs

I would also like the mod to hav to state the rule and how the member has supposedly breached it.

AckwelFoley

And this is why boards don't use robots as moderators.

It's called discretion. Some people choose to use it. Not all decisions are black and white.

So post in the dispute resolution forum

Hobbes

Or admin forum. Admins are the mods for the mods.

Zaph

denballs wrote: »

I will not point out any names and i will not say every mod is like this, but over my time here i have noticed mod,s who dont exactly do their job by the book, and base their decisions on personal feeling.

I have seen others and personally been, warned for somthing dozens of people have done in the same thread.

If this is something that you feel you have been on the receiving end of, then please post in the Dispute Resolution forum. If it's an issue involving other posters then it's up to them to fight their own battles.

denballs wrote: »

I would like a way to easily dispute a moderaters ruling and have a superior look at it and give a logical decision over the disagreement within an hour or two.

All mods, CMods and admins are volunteers, and consequently have lives outside of Boards. To expect a resolution to a dispute within an hour or two is unrealistic and effectively turns their voluntary activities into a job. While we would attempt to ensure that all disputes are resolved in a timely manner, putting a time limit on it is a burden that we are not prepared to impose on those who freely give up their time to ensure that the site runs smoothly.

denballs

well then 24 hours...and posting in a thread complaining about a specific mod will never yield beneficial results.....can you please show me one instance of a boards mod who has been punished or even told they wer wrong in a decision on boards?

Zaph

denballs wrote: »

well then 24 hours...and posting in a thread complaining about a specific mod will never yield beneficial results.....can you please show me one instance of a boards mod who has been punished or even told they wer wrong in a decision on boards?

We will not be imposing time limits on this sort of thing, if it takes a week to properly resolve a particular dispute, then it takes a week. Rushing it to fit some pre-defined timeframe does everyone involved a disservice.

As regards mod decisions being overturned, just because you've never seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. However the reason that most mod decisions are upheld is because the decision was correct in the first place. The ability to make judgements that stand up to scrutiny is one of the qualities we look for when appointing a new mod. I'm not saying that it's 100% accurate, but more often than not there are no grounds for overturning the decision.

Dudess

denballs wrote: »

can you please show me one instance of a boards mod who has been punished or even told they wer wrong in a decision on boards?

I definitely can - I don't want to be dragging up the threads though, as it wouldn't be fair on the people in question, some of whom don't mod anymore anyway. I used to moderate and would be told if I did the wrong thing - maybe not in public, but in private most definitely.

There's no mod conspiracy - it may feel that way at times, but the perception is not the reality. Plenty of mods don't get along or back each other up. If it seems like they do, it's only because they know where each other is coming from, not that they're buddies out to gang up on people, or because they feel "duty-bound" to back up their co-mods. I'm not trying to big up modding or anything, but it does give you a totally different perspective to that of when you're a regular user (which every mod once was).

Brown Bomber

Take this as an example

The guy/girl made stated an interesting fact and was banned. There is no common sense applied here. I agree with the OP, in situations like this for someone not to apologise for the mistake certainly gives the impression of "us" and "them".

Zaph

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Take this as an example http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056395111

The guy/girl made stated an interesting fact and was banned. There is no common sense applied here. I agree with the OP, in situations like this for someone not to apologise for the mistake certainly gives the impression of "us" and "them".

That thread is ongoing, so using it as an example is not really fair.

Brown Bomber

Zaph wrote: »

That thread is ongoing, so using it as an example is not really fair.

Yeah fair enough. I just think it would be better all round if some kind of ownership is taken for the errors of judgement. I said apology previously but that is probably taking it a bit too far tbh. I mean if a poster is genuinely playing by the rules and a moderator makes misunderstands something and over-reacts then it'd be nice to see them hold their hands up.

denballs

Zaph wrote: »

We will not be imposing time limits on this sort of thing, if it takes a week to properly resolve a particular dispute, then it takes a week. Rushing it to fit some pre-defined timeframe does everyone involved a disservice.

As regards mod decisions being overturned, just because you've never seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. However the reason that most mod decisions are upheld is because the decision was correct in the first place. The ability to make judgements that stand up to scrutiny is one of the qualities we look for when appointing a new mod. I'm not saying that it's 100% accurate, but more often than not there are no grounds for overturning the decision.

im not saying resolve within 24 hours ..im saying respond to a complaint within 24 hours

denballs

Dudess wrote: »

I definitely can - I don't want to be dragging up the threads though, as it wouldn't be fair on the people in question, some of whom don't mod anymore anyway. I used to moderate and would be told if I did the wrong thing - maybe not in public, but in private most definitely.

There's no mod conspiracy - it may feel that way at times, but the perception is not the reality. Plenty of mods don't get along or back each other up. If it seems like they do, it's only because they know where each other is coming from, not that they're buddies out to gang up on people, or because they feel "duty-bound" to back up their co-mods. I'm not trying to big up modding or anything, but it does give you a totally different perspective to that of when you're a regular user (which every mod once was).

.......no proof....

denballs

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Take this as an example

The guy/girl made stated an interesting fact and was banned. There is no common sense applied here. I agree with the OP, in situations like this for someone not to apologise for the mistake certainly gives the impression of "us" and "them".

thank you, perfect example of how a mod has punished a member without breach of any rule, just based on their personal opinion and with which i do not agree.

denballs

Zaph wrote: »

That thread is ongoing, so using it as an example is not really fair.

I have carefully read the entire thread, it looks as if it has go9ne as far as it will go, from what i read the mod was in the wrong and when called on it both he and his superior where both rude and un-helpful.I would almost go as far as to say that they acted like bullies towards the member who tried to stay civil and calm.

denballs

RopeDrink wrote: »

Mods have been de-modded, sometimes even banned for specific breaches - These things happen and the specifics won't be advertised.

However, when it comes to day-to-day Moderation, try to respect that there are an endless number of complaints that crop up, some of which may be genuine, most completely over the top and both categories are almost always handled incorrectly by ignoring the DRP or, worse, trying to publicly name-and-shame losing all credit for their own arguement in the process or getting themselves into trouble - You also get threads in Feedback from people who KNOW the procedure but have taken it upon themselves to go against it because they feel going by it will provide pre-determined unsatisfactory results and try to go about it in a 'faster' and always unsuccessful manner - Don't do this, please.

There is absolutely no Mod-Buddy-Stick-Together nonsense - Boards is scattered between so many self-contained communities, each with their own Mods, that they are almost all strangers to eachother. I couldn't even name more than about 6-7 who's names I remember - If I see someone taking the piss, I really won't care what title they have under their name, Poster, Mod, even an Admin, it gets reported or brought to attention if there's any indication that said antics are breaching the peace. Anything I'm unsure of gets brought up in the Moderators Forum where, assuming the problem IS with a Mod, they will see I'm complaining and could explain their case in view of our own peers.

In addition, we are only Moderators inside our own respective Forum. If I go to After Hours and take the mick, there really isn't going to be any leeway made for me - There's a lot of Forums under my name but do you think they'll care? Hell no, Public Warning, Private Warning, Ban.

If I take the mick inside my own forums, hell, I'll end up having someone put me under investigation through DRP and be found out in time if the people go about it right - Even then, if I became a Moderator of that Forum through a love of the topic and offering to help, then taking the piss in my own Forums just shows I don't give a damn anymore.

But what consitutes as taking the piss in my own Forum? Making a tough judgement call that doesn't seem to be agreed on by the general public? These things happen, Moderating can be tough, we can't always make a choice that keeps everyone happy... But if it's something obvious, blatant, noticeable and very wrong, report it, get involved in the DRP and you can be sure an Admin will have to look into it and make their own judgement call.

Threads like this won't get overly far - It'll only succeed in re-explaining that the DRP is there to be used for this sort of thing.

First off, in as polite a way possible, get in touch with the CMod of the Forum in question, highlight the issue / report it. If unsatisfied, take it to the DRP for a general investigation - I can assure you if what you are pinpointing really is a big piss take or abuse of power, whatever you want to call it, there will be wrist slaps based on severity.

Being a Mod does not make us immune to us, ourselves, being Moderated - Sadly most of the people looking for justice are often not too patient, or not willing to go about it in the right way.

Be sure to follow the Charter, be sure to keep a record of posts or threads you deem to be foul and be sure to work your way up the chain until that result is gotten.

thank you for such an in depth response, however i dont agree that the system works alot of the time, hence my request for it to be revised

Overheal

denballs wrote: »

I have carefully read the entire thread, it looks as if it has go9ne as far as it will go, from what i read the mod was in the wrong and when called on it both he and his superior where both rude and un-helpful.I would almost go as far as to say that they acted like bullies towards the member who tried to stay civil and calm.

However you have no idea how the situation would have played out, given that it is an ongoing ticket. You can not know for instance if the ban will be overturned.

Not that I think its super-fair to go digging through DRP but can you find a 'resolved' thread which supports your argument?

Zaph

denballs wrote: »

Zaph wrote: »

That thread is ongoing, so using it as an example is not really fair.

I have carefully read the entire thread, it looks as if it has go9ne as far as it will go, from what i read the mod was in the wrong and when called on it both he and his superior where both rude and un-helpful.I would almost go as far as to say that they acted like bullies towards the member who tried to stay civil and calm.

Until it's marked resolved this dispute remains open and as such I'd appreciate if there was no further speculation about it on this thread.

Tom Dunne

I have overturned a number of mods decisions on occasion. I couldn't be bothered digging the threads up, but feel free to do a search on my posts in the Help Desk/DRP forum.

Is the system perfect? Absolutely not.

Do we do our best to resolve matters? Absolutely.

Do we (Admins/Cmods/mods) get it right all the time? I would say not always.

I am going to play the old familiar line that we are all volunteers and imposing any timeframes/limits on things only makes it more like work and less likely for everyone to want to do it.

I am also going to say that we have a series of checks and balances that generally works to keep things ticking along as best we can. If a mod is out of line, we have no problem pulling them up on it. And I also have confidence that if I make a bad call, somebody else will pull me up on it.

MrFrisp

Well said,Tom Dunne.

I've worked,and still work on enough forums to know it's far from easy.

And,,who or what is perfect anyway? You can make a decision that pleases,or agrees with 90% of people,but you'll still have that other 10% that don't agree with you,and are not happy. You cannot keep all of the people happy all of the time.

One thing I do disagree with though is on one Thread,is one word that cannot be used.

It's on the satellite Forums. It's a type of decoder..It can and is used by people for 100% legit reasons.

But because it can be "tweaked" and used for illegal reasons,the very mention of it brings a Thread to a halt,and promptly locked.
While in theory I do agree with this,as it is illegal do discuss it on lots of other Forums,it should be allowed in some context for the users that do use it for it's proper legal use.

I think it's totally unfair to not even allow a proper discussion on it,just because of it's name alone.




.

Dudess

denballs wrote: »

.......no proof....

Well then just take my word for it.

denballs

Overheal wrote: »

However you have no idea how the situation would have played out, given that it is an ongoing ticket. You can not know for instance if the ban will be overturned.

Not that I think its super-fair to go digging through DRP but can you find a 'resolved' thread which supports your argument?

obviously you hav,nt even read the thread in question

denballs

Zaph wrote: »

Until it's marked resolved this dispute remains open and as such I'd appreciate if there was no further speculation about it on this thread.

With all due respect, the thread looks like its caught in a stalemate between a stubborn mod, and a member who simply wants an apology.

denballs

I would be happy that if at the next meeting (if boards do them) ...or even in the mod/admin only section...you guys could bring up the question and actively discuss how to improve modding on boards.........i dont want to create a war on mods......i just want somthing that i see as an issue to be looked into, to hopefully benefit both boards and its members.

I think I have made my point and others have had their opportunity to give a response, so to avoid this turning from debate to argument, it should probably be closed soon, however i would still like it viewable and appreciate a response as to my suggestion for a mod only discussion on the matter.

Zaph

denballs wrote: »

Zaph wrote: »

Until it's marked resolved this dispute remains open and as such I'd appreciate if there was no further speculation about it on this thread.

With all due respect, the thread looks like its caught in a stalemate between a stubborn mod, and a member who simply wants an apology.

And with all due respect, you have no knowledge of what is being discussed away from that thread.

Overheal

denballs wrote: »

obviously you hav,nt even read the thread in question

Indeed I have not: it's an unresolved dispute and I am not in possession of all the facts, even if I did read it. I have no access to the PM conversations around the dispute and neither do you. Hence why I chose not to pre-judge an unresolved Ticket. No, I did not read it.

johngalway

Dudess wrote: »

Well then just take my word for it.

And mine too.

denballs

Zaph wrote: »

And with all due respect, you have no knowledge of what is being discussed away from that thread.

i would bet me house that theres nothing going on outside the thread,.......but you are correct i dont know........and is,nt that a problem...it,s a public complaint...in a public thread........why would it need to be resolved secretly......shouldnt it be discussed openly?

denballs

Overheal wrote: »

Indeed I have not: it's an unresolved dispute and I am not in possession of all the facts, even if I did read it. I have no access to the PM conversations around the dispute and neither do you. Hence why I chose not to pre-judge an unresolved Ticket. No, I did not read it.

well as the threads OP started the thread after his ban expired i thought what you said ...(given that it is an ongoing ticket. You can not know for instance if the ban will be overturned.) .....was a bad response to what i was saying.....

I would like others to not comment on things they do not know all the facts or even any basic information about, if they are then going to tell me not to comment on things i dont know all the facts about.

Overheal

I would like others to not comment on things they do not know all the facts or even any basic information about, if they are then going to tell me not to comment on things i dont know all the facts about.

So you could label them a hypocrite?

castie

denballs wrote: »

I would like others to not comment on things they do not know all the facts or even any basic information about, if they are then going to tell me not to comment on things i dont know all the facts about.

Denballs you also dont have all the facts here and are making huge assumptions. This is being discussed I can guarantee.

Just to clarify the ban was not anything to do with "Nazi"ism or anything of the such. It was off topic posting and disobeying a forum warning. The OP in that post has since withdrawn the accusation made in the topic. This was also made clear in the DRP thread.

Thats all im going to say on this matter until its finished being discussed.

jor el

denballs wrote: »

I would like others to not comment on things they do not know all the facts or even any basic information about, if they are then going to tell me not to comment on things i dont know all the facts about.

So, others should not do exactly as you are doing then? Why is it that you can do this, but others cannot?

No changes need to be made because the current system works (not perfectly, but it works). The dispute process is open and viewable by all. If a problem is resolved, or not resolved, then everyone can see exactly what has happened. You have failed to show evidence of a single case where an issue was ignored, or left in such a way that the parties involved were not satisfied. Just because you don't know what's happening or being agreed to, doesn't mean that it's not working, or that nothing has happened.

The problem isn't with the system, it's with the perception of it.

denballs

Overheal wrote: »

So you could label them a hypocrite?

I hav,nt said that, you have, nor will i start childish name calling if thats what your looking for.

denballs

castie wrote: »

Denballs you also dont have all the facts here and are making huge assumptions. This is being discussed I can guarantee.

Just to clarify the ban was not anything to do with "Nazi"ism or anything of the such. It was off topic posting and disobeying a forum warning. The OP in that post has since withdrawn the accusation made in the topic. This was also made clear in the DRP thread.

Thats all im going to say on this matter until its finished being discussed.

I have seen no evidence to support your claims, .....and please dont say..of course you hav,nt us mod,s are convienently chatting about these public issues ..amoungst ourselves...and until we finish which we dont know, nor will we give an estimated time for..we wont comment on it further.

Insect Overlord

denballs wrote: »

I have seen no evidence to support your claims, .....and please dont say..of course you hav,nt us mod,s are convienently chatting about these public issues ..amoungst ourselves...and until we finish which we dont know, nor will we give an estimated time for..we wont comment on it further.

Can you repeat this, but in decipherable English spelling, punctuation and syntax?

Zaph

denballs wrote: »

I have seen no evidence to support your claims, .....and please dont say..of course you hav,nt us mod,s are convienently chatting about these public issues ..amoungst ourselves...and until we finish which we dont know, nor will we give an estimated time for..we wont comment on it further.

I take it from your comments that you actually haven't seen the part of the DRF thread where castie admitted that he was mistaken in banning constantg and apologised for the ban then?

When you have people who have nothing more to contribute to the site than whinge about things they know nothing of it makes resolving issues in public that much more difficult, so sometimes it's necessary to discuss the issue away from the public eye in order to get a resolution.

denballs

jor el wrote: »

So, others should not do exactly as you are doing then? Why is it that you can do this, but others cannot?

No changes need to be made because the current system works (not perfectly, but it works). The dispute process is open and viewable by all. If a problem is resolved, or not resolved, then everyone can see exactly what has happened. You have failed to show evidence of a single case where an issue was ignored, or left in such a way that the parties involved were not satisfied. Just because you don't know what's happening or being agreed to, doesn't mean that it's not working, or that nothing has happened.

The problem isn't with the system, it's with the perception of it.

I,m going to take each seperate thing you,ve said wrong and answer it seperately.

1=So, others should not do exactly as you are doing then? Why is it that you can do this, but others cannot?

I stated, that others shouldnt tell me not to do it then, even more blatently do it themselves......if your saying i shouldnt be able to do it, then i agree...but then....mods shouldnt either.......or are you saying they can but i cannot?.

2=The dispute process is open and viewable by all. If a problem is resolved, or not resolved, then everyone can see exactly what has happened.

Several mods have now said the reason that certain disputes appear un-resolved or to be simply ignored is because mods are privately discussing the thread .....so no...it obviously is,nt viewable by all...and apparently i cant see exactly what has happend.


3=You have failed to show evidence of a single case where an issue was ignored, or left in such a way that the parties involved were not satisfied.

I could direct you to one of my own if needed, ......and would i be wrong in saying that if the OP of such a thread is viewed as wrong that the thread will be closed upon the mod,s decision.....do i really have to go through the complaint archives......cause i know that there are many cases where the OP,s opinon was viewed as wrong and the thread simply closed

4=The problem isn't with the system, it's with the perception of it

What do you base this on ....the fact that you like the system and i believe it to be flawed.......well your opinion is no more innately factual than mine

The Hill Billy

A lovely summation jor el.

But I'd just like to add that while the DRP is by & large as transparent as possible there is still sometimes (not always!) communication behind the scenes via PM.

...Sometimes because the complainant hasn't been honest about the cause of their gripe in the OP.

...Sometimes because the people dealing with the issue do not want to embarrass the OP by taking into account other relevant 'material'.

...Sometimes because things need to be discussed that the general boards.ie populace do not need to know about (simple as).

Publishing these (or other similar) details would not be beneficial to any other posters. It would only serve to satisfy their nosiness or morbid curiosity when in truth - any issue raised in the DRP is between the poster & the relevant boards.ie authorities (CMods & Admins) - & it is nobody else's business as nobody but the parties in discussion have access to the facts. All else is hearsay & supposition.

denballs

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Can you repeat this, but in decipherable English spelling, punctuation and syntax?

ah...so you cannot be mature and debate the issue reasonably..so you are simply going to be offensive and jeering.

denballs

The Hill Billy wrote: »

A lovely summation jor el.

But I'd just like to add that while the DRP is by & large as transparent as possible there is still sometimes (not always!) communication behind the scenes via PM.

...Sometimes because the complainant hasn't been honest about the cause of their gripe in the OP.

...Sometimes because the people dealing with the issue do not want to embarrass the OP by taking into account other relevant 'material'.

...Sometimes because things need to be discussed that the general boards.ie populace do not need to know about (simple as).

Publishing these (or other similar) details would not be beneficial to any other posters. It would only serve to satisfy their nosiness or morbid curiosity when in truth - any issue raised in the DRP is between the poster & the relevant boards.ie authorities (CMods & Admins) - & it is nobody else's business as nobody but the parties in discussion have access to the facts. All else is hearsay & supposition.

I disagree, i think if it is privately done the mods will simply bully the OP into submission, there is a reason it was made as public and should stay that way.

Insect Overlord

denballs wrote: »

ah...so you cannot be mature and debate the issue reasonably..so you are simply going to be offensive and jeering.

I genuinely couldn't work out the point you were trying to make. I've been around here long enough to know when not to be a grammar nazi/dick.

Zaph

denballs wrote: »

I disagree, i think if it is privately done the mods will simply bully the OP into submission, there is a reason it was made as public and should stay that way.

Ahem

denballs

Zaph wrote: »

I take it from your comments that you actually haven't seen the part of the DRF thread where castie admitted that he was mistaken in banning constantg and apologised for the ban then?

When you have people who have nothing more to contribute to the site than whinge about things they know nothing of it makes resolving issues in public that much more difficult, so sometimes it's necessary to discuss the issue away from the public eye in order to get a resolution.

sorry, no i had,nt interesting how much sudden attention it got, I wonder had that got anything to do with removing it as a reference of this thread.........and why couldnt the mod just apologise srtaight away?

The Hill Billy

denballs wrote: »

I disagree, i think if it is privately done the mods will simply bully the OP into submission, there is a reason it was made as public and should stay that way.

If you cannot understand the rationale behind the need for privacy for certain elements of the DRP that is your problem. Or, as the more that I read of your posts in this thread, just plain nosiness.

denballs

Zaph, could you explain why you said ..

I'm looking into this issue so I'd appreciate it if both contantg and castie refrained from any further posting for the moment. Thanks.

...in the thead in question?

Zaph

denballs wrote: »

sorry, no i had,nt interesting how much sudden attention it got, I wonder had that got anything to do with removing it as a reference of this thread.........and why couldnt the mod just apologise srtaight away?

It hadn't just got sudden attention, I've been discussing the issue with castie to see how we could resolve it, but due to us generally being on Boards at different times that took a little longer than I would have liked. The subject of the discussion is the reason why there wasn't an immediate apology.

However, the fact remains that castie did apologise and you're still not happy. jor el and Hill Billy's posts have been clear and concise regarding the dispute process and why things sometimes happen the way they do, and you're still not happy. What exactly will make you happy?

denballs

The Hill Billy wrote: »

If you cannot understand the rationale behind the need for privacy for certain elements of the DRP that is your problem. Or, as the more that I read of your posts in this thread, just plain nosiness.

please only respond with logical statements..that serve a useful purpose....

I am trying to stop this from turning from debate into an outright argument, but as i prove your statements wrong and you and others just become offensive and thread spoiling i would prefer if you could just hold your tongue.

Zaph

denballs wrote: »

Zaph, could you explain why you said ..

I'm looking into this issue so I'd appreciate it if both contantg and castie refrained from any further posting for the moment. Thanks.

...in the thead in question?

I think I've answered that in my last post.

denballs

Zaph wrote: »

It hadn't just got sudden attention, I've been discussing the issue with castie to see how we could resolve it, but due to us generally being on Boards at different times that took a little longer than I would have liked. The subject of the discussion is the reason why there wasn't an immediate apology.

However, the fact remains that castie did apologise and you're still not happy. jor el and Hill Billy's posts have been clear and concise regarding the dispute process and why things sometimes happen the way they do, and you're still not happy. What exactly will make you happy?

actually im very happy with the result of the thread , i was going to like castie,s response but was unable to.

denballs

I would be happy if a senior member opened an official thread asking about this system, and perhaps adding a poll asking if it needs revision.

I think it,s very reasonable

If the majority of members want it looked into, then do so

if not, then dont and ill accept that the system is as good as it will get.