New Dublin Bus App - Waste of money

Tieko

I was a bit sickened today to read about Dublin Bus new app and website that will give you real time information on when your bus is due. At the same time the cut backs on routes and services have been huge but they are spending money on this useless technology. If buses were more frequent, people wouldn't need an app to tell them how long they are going to have to wait

pclive

The RTPI project is a great service.
I use the 'Dublin bus live' app all the time, it makes a big differnece going anywhere on the bus knowing when exactly the next bus is due
should help increase passenger numbers

Conway635

Well, as a long-time and regular bus user, I can tell you that these new services make a huge difference to the ease of use of the system.

Likewise, when the LUAS realtime app came out, it greatly aided me in my use of the less-frequent Cherrywood extension.

The vast bulk of the money spent was neccessary anyway for realtime location to manage the services (to replace the old AVL system from the 70s which expired a few years ago) adding the app and website on top is chickenfeed in financial terms, but a huge bonus for customers.

C635

thebman

Is this an iPhone or Android app? I don't think most of the apps on Android market aren't actually made by Dublin Bus or paid for by them.

coylemj

Conway635 wrote: »

Well, as a long-time and regular bus user, I can tell you that these new services make a huge difference to the ease of use of the system.

Likewise, when the LUAS realtime app came out, it greatly aided me in my use of the less-frequent Cherrywood extension.

The vast bulk of the money spent was neccessary anyway for realtime location to manage the services (to replace the old AVL system from the 70s which expired a few years ago) adding the app and website on top is chickenfeed in financial terms, but a huge bonus for customers.

C635

+1 to that, especially with the winter coming in. Having the real time info minimizes the amount of time I have to spend at a bus stop. I now never have to spend more than 3-4 minutes waiting for a bus because I can plan when to leave my house to meet the bus coming from or going to town.

As to the OP's assertion that 'If buses were more frequent, people wouldn't need an app to tell them how long they are going to have to wait' I'm sorry but a lot of bus routes for good economic reasons do not run every 10 minutes because the demand just isn't there.

If a bus only runs every 30 minutes or so it makes a huge difference to people who live in the middle of the route to be able to access the estimated time the next bus will pass by their nearest stop, otherwise they'd have to spend up to 30 minutes on cold and wet days standing waiting for a bus not knowing when the next bus is due.

OP, that is a seriously Luddite attitude to new technology.

coylemj

thebman wrote: »

Is this an iPhone or Android app? I don't think most of the apps on Android market are actually made by Dublin Bus or paid for by them.

The updated app. with RT data is for iPhone, the DB website says the Android version will be out in late Nov.

markpb

Tieko wrote: »

I was a bit sickened today to read about Dublin Bus new app and website that will give you real time information on when your bus is due. At the same time the cut backs on routes and services have been huge but they are spending money on this useless technology. If buses were more frequent, people wouldn't need an app to tell them how long they are going to have to wait

The cost of developing an app is relatively small. The cost of adding just one departure to one bus route can be fairly major. You can't compare the two at all.

pclive

The one i use for buses is an iphone app and is not an official one

dfx-

coylemj wrote: »

If a bus only runs every 30 minutes or so it makes a huge difference to people who live in the middle of the route to be able to access the estimated time the next bus will pass by their nearest stop, otherwise they'd have to spend up to 30 minutes on cold and wet days standing waiting for a bus not knowing when the next bus is due.

Yes, if the time is real and not 'scheduled'. Like the 76/A/B...

I was thinking of getting the 0830 citybound 56A this morning but could not risk it not showing up. That sort of service would be useful if I believed it. If a bus did not depart, would it still show an estimated time for that bus? Would it show the scheduled time...like apparently it takes 15 minutes from Tallaght to Drimnagh Rd....which in reality takes 25-30 minutes on a good day.

(The 0830 bus did show up incidentally, I saw it arrive in the city centre)

thebman

coylemj wrote: »

The updated app. with RT data is for iPhone, the DB website says the Android version will be out in late Nov.

Oh ok, I have Dublin Bus (real time info and timetables for routes) and Dublin Transport (it does routing with transfers for buses between places allowing you to pick stops on map).

Both unofficial and working fine.

KD345

Tieko wrote: »

I was a bit sickened today to read about Dublin Bus new app and website that will give you real time information on when your bus is due. At the same time the cut backs on routes and services have been huge but they are spending money on this useless technology. If buses were more frequent, people wouldn't need an app to tell them how long they are going to have to wait

I was delighted today to discover the new Dublin Bus app and website were both live. As a daily user of Dublin Bus this makes a big difference to my day. I know exactly when my bus is arriving, or if it's not due, I can plan to take other routes nearby.

Not every bus route can be frequent, but even for those that are, knowing exactly when your bus is coming is a help.

The information is there, the app, which doesn't cost a whole lot, just makes the information available to customers. The technology, which will help thousands of passengers daily, is certainly not "useless".

coylemj

thebman wrote: »

Oh ok, I have Dublin Bus (real time info and timetables for routes) and Dublin Transport (it does routing with transfers for buses between places allowing you to pick stops on map).

Both unofficial and working fine.

Both are screen-scraping from the 'text only' version of www.rtpi.ie

As of today the new iPhone app is giving RT data for every bus stop, even ones with no displays but the RTPI website is still only giving RT data for stops with displays or which are earmarked to get displays, usually these stops already have the silver pole installed and they're just waiting for the display to be added.

The DB website allows you to query any stop and get the RT data but they are not giving all of this data on www.rtpi.ie which has not been given access to the same data.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/RTPI/Sources-of-Real-Time-Information/

So until the official Android version comes out you will be restricted in which stops you can query for RT data when using an Android app.

listermint

dfx- wrote: »

Yes, if the time is real and not 'scheduled'. Like the 76/A/B...

I was thinking of getting the 0830 citybound 56A this morning but could not risk it not showing up. That sort of service would be useful if I believed it. If a bus did not depart, would it still show an estimated time for that bus? Would it show the scheduled time...like apparently it takes 15 minutes from Tallaght to Drimnagh Rd....which in reality takes 25-30 minutes on a good day.

(The 0830 bus did show up incidentally, I saw it arrive in the city centre)

The buses have GPS built in which transmits back to main database, Why wouldnt you believe it ?? Makes no sense ?

listermint

coylemj wrote: »

Both are screen-scraping from the 'text only' version of www.rtpi.ie

As of today the new iPhone app is giving RT data for every bus stop, even ones with no displays but the RTPI website is still only giving RT data for stops with displays or which are earmarked to get displays, usually these stops already have the silver pole installed and they're just waiting for the display to be added.

The DB website allows you to query any stop and get the RT data but they are not giving all of this data on www.rtpi.ie which has not been given access to the same data.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/RTPI/Sources-of-Real-Time-Information/

So until the official Android version comes out you will be restricted in which stops you can query for RT data when using an Android app.

Which is also pants, I thought this Data was originally meant to be openly available, How come DB changed from the original spec ?

KD345

dfx- wrote: »

Yes, if the time is real and not 'scheduled'. Like the 76/A/B...

I was thinking of getting the 0830 citybound 56A this morning but could not risk it not showing up. That sort of service would be useful if I believed it. If a bus did not depart, would it still show an estimated time for that bus? Would it show the scheduled time...like apparently it takes 15 minutes from Tallaght to Drimnagh Rd....which in reality takes 25-30 minutes on a good day.

(The 0830 bus did show up incidentally, I saw it arrive in the city centre)

The information displayed is real time. However, until a bus actually leaves the terminus, the screens can only show the scheduled/estimated time, as there is no actual "real time" bus to track.

markpb

KD345 wrote: »

The information displayed is real time. However, until a bus actually leaves the terminus, the screens can only show the scheduled/estimated time, as there is no actual "real time" bus to track.

Would it be more accurate to say that the system probably can't figure out that an inbound departure running late will make the following outbound departure late because it's being operated by the same bus? I presume it assumes that each departure is independent.

coylemj

KD345 wrote: »

The information displayed is real time. However, until a bus actually leaves the terminus, the screens can only show the scheduled/estimated time, as there is no actual "real time" bus to track.

+1 you need to know roughly how many minutes from the terminus to your bus stop, that allows you to tell which of the listed buses are 'scheduled' and which are actually heading in your direction.

coylemj

markpb wrote: »

Would it be more accurate to say that the system probably can't figure out that an inbound departure running late will make the following outbound departure late because it's being operated by the same bus?

I doubt if it's that intelligent. The garage can always send an empty bus to the terminus to do the run anyway so I'd say the RT systems doesn't make the link you described.

markpb wrote: »

I presume it assumes that each departure is independent.

I'd be inclined to agree.

markpb

coylemj wrote: »

I doubt if it's that intelligent. The garage can always send an empty bus to the terminus to do the run anyway so I'd say the RT systems doesn't make the link you described.

Assuming that's true, I'd be surprised if it couldn't change, in the future, so that DB can tell it the link between arrivals and departures.

KD345

markpb wrote: »

Would it be more accurate to say that the system probably can't figure out that an inbound departure running late will make the following outbound departure late because it's being operated by the same bus? I presume it assumes that each departure is independent.

From what I understand, scheduled display times can be adjusted from central control, for example, if a bus breaks down it can be dropped from the display. I have seen some displays show "Parnell Square" for short workings of cross city routes.

I'm sure in time more features will be added to the service.

murphaph

KD345 wrote: »

I'm sure in time more features will be added to the service.

Exactly. This type of app will develop with time. If the OP thinks these apps were rolled out in their final state in other countries he's sorely mistaken.

At least DB are actively pushing this-compare to IE who still have no functioning displays beyond Drumcondra on the Maynooth line.

n97 mini

Personally I think it's a fantastic step forward for DB, where the lack of information has always been a huge problem. Some very long and infrequent bus routes have been next to unusuable unless you're getting on near the terminus.

Fair play to whoever pushed for this system.

Victor

KD345 wrote: »

The information displayed is real time. However, until a bus actually leaves the terminus, the screens can only show the scheduled/estimated time, as there is no actual "real time" bus to track.

Then the system should work off the working timetable, not the public timetable, so it can know if the previous service will be there in time.

Sad Professor

I'm very happy with this new service. It's certainly not without its problems - phantom buses, inaccuracies, etc. But for someone like me who absolutely detests having to stand around at bus stops, it is a godsend.

Also, like coylemj said, for anyone looking to travel within the final few stages a bus's route, estimating when the next bus would arrive was previously next to impossible. You could find yourself standing at the bus stop longer than it would take walk. To be able to get to your destination reliably you would have to leave much earlier than necessary. I might actually be able to get the bus to work now.

dowlingm

I take it DB doesn't publish a GTFS feed? (Google Transit Feed Specification)

The problem with DB is that they aren't a body similar to North American transit commissions which are answerable to the public, holding board meetings in public and receiving direct representations. It took a lot of pushing to get Toronto TTC to get GTFS going which means not only Google access (Google Maps, iPhone Maps) but third party devs too. The DB timetable is a public asset and should be open and available.

Toronto GTFS
Toronto NVAS (RTPI)

thebman

coylemj wrote: »

Both are screen-scraping from the 'text only' version of www.rtpi.ie

As of today the new iPhone app is giving RT data for every bus stop, even ones with no displays but the RTPI website is still only giving RT data for stops with displays or which are earmarked to get displays, usually these stops already have the silver pole installed and they're just waiting for the display to be added.

The DB website allows you to query any stop and get the RT data but they are not giving all of this data on www.rtpi.ie which has not been given access to the same data.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/RTPI/Sources-of-Real-Time-Information/

So until the official Android version comes out you will be restricted in which stops you can query for RT data when using an Android app.

Oh I'm aware of that but it is better than nothing and the route planner one is actually pretty good. I found it easier to use than Dublin Bus website. My dad has been asking me for something like it for about a month as he finds the whole Dublin Bus website layout to be alien to someone not from Dublin as he thinks it assumes too much knowledge of the routes etc... or else he can't find the information for someone that knows nothing on the website.

I don't really use Dublin Bus anymore. I agree with Irish Rail comment. I use Next Train Ireland on android to find out train times at the station on Maynooth line because they don't show it on the signs which is really annoying as I'm using my money to check information they already have but don't want to display on a sign that they have already for some random reason. Its pretty annoying, maybe they have a good reason for it but I've not thought of one other than laziness :P

jack presley

Anyone else having a problem with this app?

I just downloaded it any typed in a bus route and it came back "no routes found". I then hit the 'full list of bus routes' option and that also came back with no routes found.

The next plan of attack was to select a bus stop and I tried a few but got the message "sorry, real time information is currently unavailable for this bus stop" each time. It also doesn't have most of the bus stops out my way on it.

You'd think they'd have tested the system properly before having a press launch. So yea, I do think this is a waste of money but not because of the reason the OP stated but because it looks like its a crock of sh1t!

EDIT - just saw on the DB website that the system is down. Well that's money well spent isn't it? A system that lasts a day before it crashes! Their IT consultants must be very good at their jobs

Sad Professor

It's back working now.

Aidan1

Its working fine now.

It's a great system, particularly for those of us who sometimes use routes that don't have a very frequent service.

seamus

This is something which we've needed with Dublin Bus for 20 years and which is at this stage ten years overdue for implementation.

For as long as I can remember, the biggest problem with Dublin Bus is that unless you were at a terminus, you have no idea when the next bus was going to arrive. I can't believe that anyone who has ever used Dublin Bus, even once, would think that RTPI is an unnecessary thing.

If anything, it bring busses back into the realms of transport that I can tolerate using.

smackyB

I'm going to start work on a scraper for the new site for the Next Bus Dublin Android app so hopefully you'll see an update soon with all the stops and better location/mapping info. There's meant to be an API coming out for devs to use but I'll believe it when I see it.

shanahap

Yesterday, a phantom 38 bus appeared in Blanchardstown which was not on the Dublin bus realtime page.

Additionallly, The service was not working at 7am this morning for any of the bus stops on Cabra Road.

DB should not have launched this service with a huge fanfare if it was not yet fully tested.

However, I am hopeful it will improve lives for bus users if it works as stated.

bk

dowlingm wrote: »

The problem with DB is that they aren't a body similar to North American transit commissions which are answerable to the public, holding board meetings in public and receiving direct representations. It took a lot of pushing to get Toronto TTC to get GTFS going which means not only Google access (Google Maps, iPhone Maps) but third party devs too. The DB timetable is a public asset and should be open and available.

Yup, the NTA should really require all public transport companies in Ireland to make their data available via GTFS and GTFS-Realtime and also merge the GTFS feeds from all the companies into their own mega GTFS feed.

This really should have been a prerequisite for the roll out of this. The official DB site and apps should be using the same GTFS and GTFS-Realtime feeds that are made available to all developers.

I was in Boston recently and it was amazing using Google Maps to search for directions and getting detailed directions including multiple forms of public transport with their actual arrival times.

n97 mini

Hmmm. Website is full of bugs.

On this page If I put in hotel in Search by Bus Stop Address, and hit Enter (as opposed to clicking Go), it either does nothing or performs a Google search of the DB website.

Reminds me of a Guy Kawasaki quote:
"Don't worry, be crappy. Revolutionary means you ship and then test... Lots of things made the first Mac in 1984 a piece of crap - but it was a revolutionary piece of crap."

markpb

n97 mini wrote: »

On this page If I put in hotel in Search by Bus Stop Address, and hit Enter (as opposed to clicking Go), it either does nothing or performs a Google search of the DB website.

I made that mistake the first few times too, I was very confused at first! Silly mistake to make but hopefully one they'll rectify soon.

markpb

bk wrote: »

This really should have been a prerequisite for the roll out of this. The official DB site and apps should be using the same GTFS and GTFS-Realtime feeds that are made available to all developers.

This is Ireland, it won't happen (DB have told me in black and white last year.) What will happen instead is that DB, BE and Irish Rail will continue to use the journey planners that they all developed separately at their own expense(s). Then the NTA will pay out a fourth time to develop a new (and badly needed) national journey planner.

They won't export GTFS because it would compete with the site they have/are going to develop themselves.

coylemj

n97 mini wrote: »

Hmmm. Website is full of bugs.

On this page If I put in hotel in Search by Bus Stop Address, and hit Enter (as opposed to clicking Go), it either does nothing or performs a Google search of the DB website.

markpb wrote: »

I made that mistake the first few times too, I was very confused at first! Silly mistake to make but hopefully one they'll rectify soon.

Sorry but that is not a bug, that webpage has three input fields, each with a separate 'GO' button, there is also a button entitled 'Search on the map' - you guys just press Enter and when it doesn't work you call it a bug!!!

Do you have a Google search bar at the top of your browser window? Pressing 'Enter' probably invokes a Google search from your search bar. Enter data on the RTPI webpage and then click on the appropriate button, that's how it's designed to work.

Stop blaming the developers because you're too lazy to use the mouse!

markpb

coylemj wrote: »

Do you have a Google search bar at the top of your browser window? Pressing 'Enter' probably invokes a Google search from your search bar. Enter data on the RTPI webpage and then click on the appropriate button, that's how it's designed to work.

Stop blaming the developers because you're too lazy to use the mouse!

Nope, no Google search bar for me. They got the form actions wrong and disabled the submit action on the form. When you hit Enter, it submits the Dublin Bus Google search form instead of the RPTI form. It's a bug, albeit a very small one.

n97 mini

coylemj wrote: »

Sorry but that is not a bug, that webpage has three input fields, each with a separate 'GO' button, there is also a button entitled 'Search on the map' - you guys just press Enter and when it doesn't work you call it a bug!!!

Do you have a Google search bar at the top of your browser window? Pressing 'Enter' probably invokes a Google search from your search bar. Enter data on the RTPI webpage and then click on the appropriate button, that's how it's designed to work.

Stop blaming the developers because you're too lazy to use the mouse!

You should have tried it.

This is what pressing Enter does. Hardly a Google toolbar result.

Pressing Enter in the text entry box should invoke the action for that box. It's lazy or poor development if it doesn't.

coylemj

markpb wrote: »

Nope, no Google search bar for me. They got the form actions wrong and disabled the submit action on the form. When you hit Enter, it submits the Dublin Bus Google search form instead of the RPTI form. It's a bug, albeit a very small one.

I take your point, you're obviously referring to the 'Search Website' field to the right of the Facebook and Twitter icons. But even if they fix that, what's supposed to happen if you enter data in two fields and press 'Enter'?

markpb

coylemj wrote: »

I take your point, you're obviously referring to the 'Search Website' field to the right of the Facebook and Twitter icons. But even if they fix that, what's supposed to happen if you enter data in two fields and press 'Enter'?

You submit the form that the enter key was pressed in. If they're in search by bus stop and hit enter, that's the form that the user wants.

n97 mini

coylemj wrote: »

I take your point, you're obviously referring to the 'Search Website' field to the right of the Facebook and Twitter icons. But even if they fix that, what's supposed to happen if you enter data in two fields and press 'Enter'?

The last field that was used gets the action.

coylemj

Ok, got it now, what you're saying is that wherever you typed last should be taken as the active field and if you press 'enter' it should be the same as pressing the 'Go' button beside that field. Probably can't argue with that.

listermint

seamus wrote: »

This is something which we've needed with Dublin Bus for 20 years and which is at this stage ten years overdue for implementation.

For as long as I can remember, the biggest problem with Dublin Bus is that unless you were at a terminus, you have no idea when the next bus was going to arrive. I can't believe that anyone who has ever used Dublin Bus, even once, would think that RTPI is an unnecessary thing.

If anything, it bring busses back into the realms of transport that I can tolerate using.

I dont believe anyone with a right mind is disagreeing that the information is needed, it is that the methodology of delivering it is typical of anything that is done in this country. Closed house and it aids the benefit of the selected few companies involved which is a disgrace for a public service entity such as DB.

This information as already stated should have been made publicly available and open for use from any third party developer which would make it a more condusive and open system. But hey then the lads at the top wouldnt be able to hand pick the companies involved would they..... And we as the paying public would have gotten the information relatively quicker and with a lower cost. But dont let that get in the way of applauding management because they got something 1/4 right.

n97 mini

As Dublin Bus and therefore the system is owned by the public there is a strong case for making the information available to the public. Someone has already there will be an API made available soon. It should be free.

Now is the time to start asking is it free, and asking Leo why not if it isn't.

Sean9015

Victor wrote: »

Then the system should work off the working timetable, not the public timetable, so it can know if the previous service will be there in time.

Don't disagree, but having operated such systems in the UK there are pitfalls in this approach which system providers have to take into account when linking journeys (incidentally if this is one of the two systems I have worked with it does use working times).

Firstly, if there is late running on the inbound service, a replacement bus may be used for the outbound. This produces two possible problems; if the system can accept two buses showing the same working, it has to decide which is correct. If it can't there has to be manual intervention to "kill" the incoming bus which can have an effect on remaining parts of the inbound journey.

Secondly, while there are scheduled turnround times, these are by their nature unpredictable; for example, in an extreme case the bus may break down and not be able to start, so the displays down the route will freeze without manual intervention, and then the bus will then disappear from the system after an interval (which has to be in place to cover GPS coverage issues, comms issues or similar), leading customers to think the system isn't working.

It is far harder to provide RTI for a road based system than a rail based one, where (on a modern system) vehicles are tracked as part of the signalling system - although interfacing RTI screens with safety critical systems does have its interesting moments As I used to say when we got complaints about displays not working, or showing apparently incorrect information; it is a prediction based on pastperformance, not a crystal ball!

dowlingm

bk wrote: »

I was in Boston recently and it was amazing using Google Maps to search for directions and getting detailed directions including multiple forms of public transport with their actual arrival times.

This is the point. Why should you have to buy an app when you visit a city. I was bombing around Vancouver with my iPod Touch during the Olympics, I'd cue up directions and arrival timings whenever I could access an open wireless access point for my next stage. If I had an iPhone or Android obviously it would have been even better.

crushproof

It's the same in Calgary in Canada, both the train and bus are provided for on Google Maps, it's absolutely brilliant in terms of planning trips from one address to another....this App bull is ridiculous!

bk

crushproof wrote: »

It's the same in Calgary in Canada, both the train and bus are provided for on Google Maps, it's absolutely brilliant in terms of planning trips from one address to another....this App bull is ridiculous!

I wouldn't say apps are bull, ideally you want both.

Locals who use the service all the time will want the app, as it will supply more information, service updates, ticket promotions, etc.

Visitors on the other hand probably don't want to download a separate app for every city they visit and would prefer to use Google maps.

No reason why we can't have both.

dfx-

listermint wrote: »

The buses have GPS built in which transmits back to main database, Why wouldnt you believe it ?? Makes no sense ?

Yesterday at 1830, I checked the website for Richmond St southbound for a 14.

1831, 1842, 1854 all 14s according to the website. That's great I say to myself, I'll get the bus at 1842.

The 1842 bus never materialised, the 1854 bus (presumably it was this bus, AV148) turned up at 1901. That's why I don't believe it. AV148 did cut out twice on Braemor Rd/Churchtown, so maybe this explains its lateness.

LXFlyer

I was also on that bus - it left D'Olier Street on time at 1845. There was no large crowd waiting which suggests that the bus ahead of it did operate - it may have got there a bit faster than when you checked at 1830.

The timings can be a bit distorted on the 14 as there are driver changes on Georges Quay on many departures 5 minutes before they are due in D'Olier Street and the real time info will not take that into account in advance of that happening. It will only look at where the bus is at a particular point and time it based on average journey speeds from that point. They do (to be fair) tend to leave D'Olier Street on time at 1815, 1830, and 1845 in my experience.