Dublin's name in Irish

The Scientician

It's "Baile Atha Cliath" as we all know. Does anyone know how long it's been known as this, was BAC a relatively recent creation or going back say 500 years did Micí MacMucaigh as Contae Maigh Eo say he was off to Baile Atha Cliath?

Tabnabs

There is a line in Táin Bó Cuailgne that says

Dublind rissa ratter Áth Cliath,

meaning Dublin, which is called Ath Cliath.

So it's old and probably in excess of 1000 years in use.

czech

I read somewhere that this translate to City of Wattle . Wattle been a plant type material that was used to cross the river liffey anyone else heard of this. Maybe 500 years ago that would have been a way to discribe Dublin

admiralofthefleet

wasnt it originally dubh linn? as in black pool

seamus

"Town of the Hurdled Ford", according to wikipedia.

A ford being a crossing point in a river, and a hurdled ford being a ford/bridge made out of hurdled wattle. Can't really seem to find any kid of description of what such a thing would look like. Maybe it was a rudmentary draw bridge or something.

The first wooden bridge appeared in the 11th century, so the name is probably very old, predating the viking occupation.

The river being fairly wide for most of its length, crossing-points would have been quite rare, so it doesn't surprise me that a town would grow up around a bridge, hence the "Town" of the hurdled ford.

Given the relatively tiny scale of towns back then, Ath Cliath and Dubh linn were probably two very close but separate villages for quite a while before growing up into one large town.

fontanalis

This came up in another thread; from what I remember Dublin comes from the irish name for black pool (as mentioned above) which was gievn to a certain place on the liffey, this may be alse related to a viking name Dyflin. Baile Atha Cliath rfers to another place which as said means hurdled ford.
So it seems the irish name comes from one place and the english another. Anyone who has the fulls tory pleas efeel free to correct me.

CyberJuice

i want to get the dublin in irish tattood on my arm

would i get baile ath cliath or just ath cliath? i have no idea which one out of the 2 would be the best suited

WindSock

Wonder why the Vikings used gaelic to name it?

Mellor

CyberJuice wrote:

i want to get the dublin in irish tattood on my arm

would i get baile ath cliath or just ath cliath? i have no idea which one out of the 2 would be the best suited

Ath Cliath means Dublin
Baile Ath Cliath means Dublin City

The rest is up to you.

WindSock wrote: »

Wonder why the Vikings used gaelic to name it?

They most likely didn't. There would of been gaelic speaking irish living in the area when the Vikings arrived.
I imagine they adopted the irish name Dubh Linn, pronouncing and spelling it as Dyflin.

The name Ath Cliath has been in text from the 9th century or so.
As suggested above, the english title was named after place and the irish another.

kraggy

Baile Atha Cliath and Dubh Linn were 2 different places. We studied this in college.

Can't really remember where the 2 places were but the Dubh Linn blackpool place was a very specific area along the banks of the liffey.

Mellor

kraggy wrote: »

Baile Atha Cliath and Dubh Linn were 2 different places. We studied this in college.

Can't really remember where the 2 places were but the Dubh Linn blackpool place was a very specific area along the banks of the liffey.

Ath Cliath was the point were the Liffey was crossed. ie the ford in the liffey.

Dubh Linn was were the river Poddle meets the Liffey. A deep dark pool was formed here. At low tide, you can see where the river meet today, the grated metal arch at wellington quay, but historically the original location was further east (the castle grounds in those days)

reprazant

As far as I know, or at least as I was told, the original Dubh Linn is meant have been originally where the gardens in front of the Chester Beatty Library is in Dublin Castle.

Fuinseog

czech wrote: »

I read somewhere that this translate to City of Wattle . Wattle been a plant type material that was used to cross the river liffey anyone else heard of this. Maybe 500 years ago that would have been a way to discribe Dublin

cliath is in reference to the wooden bridge that some believe was located where the Brazen head now stands and connected to the Eiscir Riada.

Baile is usually translated as settlement.

Ath is a place where you can ford the river

seamus

Fuinseog wrote: »

cliath is in reference to the wooden bridge that some believe was located where the Brazen head now stands and connected to the Eiscir Riada.

Baile is usually translated as settlement.

Ath is a place where you can ford the river

My thinking was that "Ath" is a derivative or archaic form of "áit", simply, "Place", while Cliath refers to the bridge or crossing itself. So "Ath Cliath" would be "the crossing place" or "The place with the bridge". I could be wrong though, maybe an "Ath" was specifically a fording place.
Adding on "Baile" then refers specifically to "The town of the crossing place". This would be consistent with the modern meaning of "Ath Cliath" referring to Dublin (the place), and BAC referring to the city specifically.

reprazant wrote: »

As far as I know, or at least as I was told, the original Dubh Linn is meant have been originally where the gardens in front of the Chester Beatty Library is in Dublin Castle.

One of the pages referred to this alright. Apparently this was a relatively large lake which was often used for moorings off the liffey.

If you look at the map of the distance between the gardens and the liffey (and consider how big a lake needs to be for moorings), you get an idea of how different the geography was back then;
http://g.co/maps/agjzg

Not least with the elevation different between the quays and Dublin Castle, that whole area seems to have been artificially raised when sending the poddle underground.

The Scientician

CyberJuice wrote: »

i want to get the dublin in irish tattood on my arm

would i get baile ath cliath or just ath cliath? i have no idea which one out of the 2 would be the best suited

Either Baile Átha Cliath for Dublin City or Áth Cliath for Dublin.

CyberJuice

The Scientician wrote: »

Either Baile Átha Cliath for Dublin City or Áth Cliath for Dublin.

thanks,il lgo for ath cliath

Marcusm

Mellor wrote: »

Ath Cliath means Dublin
Baile Ath Cliath means Dublin City

The rest is up to you.
another.

I can tell from the rest of your post that you understand Tge greater subtlety that Ath Cliath doesn't mean Dublin but is the Irish language name for the place called Dublin in the English language. The lack of direct translation in Irish place names is common but I'm unsure why.

My favourite is Maam Cross which in Irish is An Teach Doite. Anyone else have examples.

fontanalis

Marcusm wrote: »

I can tell from the rest of your post that you understand Tge greater subtlety that Ath Cliath doesn't mean Dublin but is the Irish language name for the place called Dublin in the English language. The lack of direct translation in Irish place names is common but I'm unsure why.

My favourite is Maam Cross which in Irish is An Teach Doite. Anyone else have examples.

Wexford - Loch Garman
Waterford - Port Lairge
Dungloe (in Donegal) - Clochan Liatha
Wicklow - Cill Mhaintin

HavingCrack

In theory, would you also be 'sort of' correct if you used Dubh Linn instead of Baile Atha Cliath in Irish?

The Scientician

CyberJuice wrote: »

thanks,il lgo for ath cliath

Don't forget the fada!!

Mellor

HavingCrack wrote: »

In theory, would you also be 'sort of' correct if you used Dubh Linn instead of Baile Atha Cliath in Irish?

No you wouldn't be correct

It's is a place.
The name for this place in English is Dublin and in Irish is Ath Cliath.
There is no relationship between the two.

Dubh Linn means black pool, a pool that no longer exists. Using that in irish is about as correct as using Black pool english.


Isn't there a blackpool in Cork, whats the irish name for that town?

Tabnabs

HavingCrack wrote: »

In theory, would you also be 'sort of' correct if you used Dubh Linn instead of Baile Atha Cliath in Irish?

An interesting question and I think it would fall into the category of 'sort of' correct. Ath Cliath pre-dates Dubh Linn as a recorded location as far as current knowledge indicates, but you could argue that Dubh Linn was the true foundation of Dublin as the settlement > fortification > town > city.

Dyr

WindSock wrote: »

Wonder why the Vikings used gaelic to name it?

Cos they were dead pretentious

Mellor

Tabnabs wrote: »

An interesting question and I think it would fall into the category of 'sort of' correct. Ath Cliath pre-dates Dubh Linn as a recorded location as far as current knowledge indicates, but you could argue that Dubh Linn was the true foundation of Dublin as the settlement > fortification > town > city.

Dubh linn was wear they parked their boats

Ath cliath was where they crossed the river.

One is as much the settlement as the other

Cianos

Tabnabs wrote: »

An interesting question and I think it would fall into the category of 'sort of' correct. Ath Cliath pre-dates Dubh Linn as a recorded location as far as current knowledge indicates, but you could argue that Dubh Linn was the true foundation of Dublin as the settlement > fortification > town > city.

Would this be why the city came to be known, in English, from Dubh Linn rather than Baile Atha Cliath?

Do you think the ease of pronunciation has anything to do with it?

hidinginthebush

Marcusm wrote: »

I can tell from the rest of your post that you understand Tge greater subtlety that Ath Cliath doesn't mean Dublin but is the Irish language name for the place called Dublin in the English language. The lack of direct translation in Irish place names is common but I'm unsure why.

My favourite is Maam Cross which in Irish is An Teach Doite. Anyone else have examples.

Howth is translated as Binn Eadair (sp?). The word Howth comes from the Danish word Hoved, meaning "head"

Tabnabs

Mellor wrote: »

Dubh linn was wear they parked their boats

Ath cliath was where they crossed the river.

One is as much the settlement as the other

Initially Ath Cliath was the main settlement, but was very quickly eclipsed by Dubh Linn as archaeological evidence proves. The ford was in use by the Irish, but the viking encampment at Dubh Linn grew from military fort (longphort) as described in the Ulster Annals

The pagans were driven from Ireland, from the longphort of Dubh Linn; and they abandoned a good number of ships and escaped half dead, after they had been wounded and broken.

to a "dún" (stronghold) as used of the settlement at Dublin for the first time in 944. In the mid 10th century coins were also being minted in Dublin for the first (recorded) time with DIFLIN stamped on them. After the defeat of Amláibh Cúarán (Norse Óláfr kváran) who was King of the viking stronghold in Dubh Linn the Irish eventually took control and even levied a gold tax on the residents of Dublin. By this time, the original viking temporary longphort settlement had grown into the Hiberno-Norse town of Dublin.

So I think you are selling the significance of Dubh Linn far short of what history and archaeology records.

Tabnabs

Cianos wrote: »

Would this be why the city came to be known, in English, from Dubh Linn rather than Baile Atha Cliath?

Do you think the ease of pronunciation has anything to do with it?

Seeing as the Dublin grew out of the original Dubh Linn which was known to the Norse settlers as Dyflin but then as the Irish gained control of the expanding town before inviting the Normans in relatively shortly afterwards, the name of Ath Cliath just never gained traction and Dubh Linn/Dyflin became anglicised to Dublin.

I think its less to do with pronunciation and probably more to do with the town of Dubh Linn having an international standing and recognition as opposed to the original Ath Cliath settlement.

seamus

Tabnabs wrote: »

I think its less to do with pronunciation and probably more to do with the town of Dubh Linn having an international standing and recognition as opposed to the original Ath Cliath settlement.

Pronunciation didn't really seem to hamper a lot of other place names, so I doubt it would be a problem tbh. "Baile Ath Cliath" may even have been saved somewhat by not being the "main" name of the city. The anglophone of Dubh Linn is not far from the original pronunciation, but if BAC had been in common use rather than Dubh Linn, we might now know Dublin as Ballyclay or something like that as English speakers struggled with BAC.

Tabnabs

seamus wrote: »

Pronunciation didn't really seem to hamper a lot of other place names, so I doubt it would be a problem tbh. "Baile Ath Cliath" may even have been saved somewhat by not being the "main" name of the city. The anglophone of Dubh Linn is not far from the original pronunciation, but if BAC had been in common use rather than Dubh Linn, we might now know Dublin as Ballyclay or something like that as English speakers struggled with BAC.

Very true, or possibly even something quite different again as English as we know it would not be spoken until the 15th Century. The language of the locals and invaders at that time would have been a mix if Old Norse, Anglo-Saxon & Norman.

For example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English#Text_samples

So who knows what it would have been called with those influences!?

_blank_

seamus wrote: »

Pronunciation didn't really seem to hamper a lot of other place names, so I doubt it would be a problem tbh. "Baile Ath Cliath" may even have been saved somewhat by not being the "main" name of the city. The anglophone of Dubh Linn is not far from the original pronunciation, but if BAC had been in common use rather than Dubh Linn, we might now know Dublin as Ballyclay or something like that as English speakers struggled with BAC.

I always thought it would have been nice if Baile Atha Cliath had been Anglicised instead of Dubh Linn then we would have ended up with something like "Blackly" or "Blacklaw" - whenever I hear Irish speakers saying Baile Atha Cliath it always comes out sounding something like "Blaw-clee-a".

Which would mean we have "Black" in the Anglicised version of the Gaelic name, and also Black in the alternate Gaelic name, but neither related.

BeerNut

Des wrote: »

we would have ended up with something like "Blackly" or "Blacklaw"

Or, hopefully, this.

Have any Baile- towns been anglicised as "Black-"? It's generally Bal- or Bally-. I think Valentia Island is one notable exception.

_blank_

you are right of course, but it's just a notion I had.

A combination of how Irish was pronounced and how English was pronounced way back when kills my idea, no doubt, but one can dream!

Esel

Des, your "Blaw-clee-a" is fairly bang-on, imo.

On the Dubh Linn thing - wouldn't the correct structure have been Linn Dubh?

Every tourist knows the 'correct' name is An Lár anyway...

Cathaoirleach

There is an another ancient name for Dublin that seems to have disapeared from modern history books!

Drom Coil Choille


Oxford University 1786



John Adolphus 1818





Samuel Lewis 1837

(sorry, zoom in)