best charolais bull

pmct

i wondering what are your opinons on which charolias bull in the ai are the best for heifiers and which are bests for cows

Muckit

I'm not convinced that a charolais bull is at all suitable for heifers. Certainly not AI ones. You can say what you like about having the backing of ICBF ratings for calving ease, but a heifer will not be at ease trying to push out a big charolais bull calf.

If you are adamant that you still want to breed heifers to a charolais bull, she'I nearly need to be up on 3years old calving down.

Just my opinion. Is it worth taking the risk for the sake of a year? Give them a charolais after their first calf.

We've used VGO, TZA and OSI.

http://www.dovea.ie/html/charolais.html

flatout11

why do you want to give a charolais to a heifer? i know a fair few pedigree men who have moved away from going back charo on the first ai and have opted for limmys even one man uses a bb ai
get them claved out the first time and back on track - you could lose the differance in the price recieved for the ch weanling with a hard calving increased days open etc......
in regard to the best ch for cows depends on the AI company CF 85 is leaving some nice stock

Bizzum

Are the heifers PB CH or commercials?
On PB heifers I have used Excellent, CF 51, Ijoufflu, Nelson,SUX (I think) and probably a couple more that I can't remember! In the last 5 to 10 years I have gone away from CH on a PB CH heifer. I use Lim or BA on them at 18Mths or so.

Are you asking about PB CH Cows?
On cows the "best" Ch bull will be dictated by what you want to produce.
For example, the best bull to bring a bit of muscle will often not be the best bull to bring a bit of size. So it depends on what you want really.


If it's commercial stock you are asking about, the bull will be determined by what market you intend aiming for, so things like weanling weight and carcase wgt will be important depending what you're after. There are plenty of good CH bulls around that will do the job for ya. What AI company do you intend using?

Kovu

pmct wrote: »

i wondering what are your opinons on which charolias bull in the ai are the best for heifiers and which are bests for cows

KFC was what we always used at first for calving down roughly 24/25 months. Now it's some silly number thing I can't remember because I'm away from the book. But it does largely depend on the heifer. What's the cross with CH, if even a X. I've seen animals off an 'easy calving' lim throw tiny yokes that grow well and whoppers that take the side exit.

Figerty

I used PAM (Lim) last year on a couple of heifers and a two Chaolais cows/heifers that had been sectioned the previous year. Nice colour and make.

I have four fine weanlings from PAM. One Heifer I will be keeping for breeding down the line. Serious meat on her, maybe too much.

I have used OSI on Chaolais cow with great results. ODI in the past also proved a good breeder for me.

bogman_bass

its hard to look past PTE for easy calving charolais but in saying that I still wouldnt be in a ruch to use him on heifers

pmct

thanks for the replys i have 3 P.B. heifers they are they are 18-21 months i also have i chx heifer i was thinking og bulling them in december but i was just asking peoples views on different bulls although one part of me is thinking of giving them a white BB bull

Kovu

pmct wrote: »

thanks for the replys i have 3 P.B. heifers they are they are 18-21 months i also have i chx heifer i was thinking og bulling them in december but i was just asking peoples views on different bulls although one part of me is thinking of giving them a white BB bull

Unless you're looking for trouble, you'd better explain more then a white BB!:eek:

pmct

i meant i few years. This year i want something easy caving

Bizzum

Now that Bogman reminded me, I've used Pirate over the years too.
I have a smashing heifer calf off Roundhill Doc, a son of Nelson out of a second calver(By Sylvain).
On the subject of putting a BB on a PB CH, I've done it a nice bit over the years, even on a PB heifer (AI man misread the straw). The Blue calves were generally easily born, from memory all calved unassisted except the heifer, who we assisted with the jack and had a good size bull calf, he turned into a smasher actually.
The Blonde bull on the CH heifer brings a lovely white shapey calf.

The Blue bull BBQ could probably work well enough on CH heifers. I have 2 Alcazar heifers for the bull soon and might think about BBQ. Anyone here have heifers calved to him?

vanderbadger

Bizzum wrote: »

Now that Bogman reminded me, I've used Pirate over the years too.
I have a smashing heifer calf off Roundhill Doc, a son of Nelson out of a second calver(By Sylvain).
On the subject of putting a BB on a PB CH, I've done it a nice bit over the years, even on a PB heifer (AI man misread the straw). The Blue calves were generally easily born, from memory all calved unassisted except the heifer, who we assisted with the jack and had a good size bull calf, he turned into a smasher actually.
The Blonde bull on the CH heifer brings a lovely white shapey calf.

The Blue bull BBQ could probably work well enough on CH heifers. I have 2 Alcazar heifers for the bull soon and might think about BBQ. Anyone here have heifers calved to him?

ya 2 heifers last winter, one was a bit of a pull but the other was fine

flatout11

its funny in all the bulls the AI companys bought they still havent found a replacement for cf52 yet

pakalasa

CF85 isn't a bad bull. I used him a few times. Gone now too, I suppose, with the IBR thing.

Tora Bora

flatout11 wrote: »

its funny in all the bulls the AI companys bought they still havent found a replacement for cf52 yet

The great 52 will never be replaced i'd say.

vanderbadger

flatout11 wrote: »

its funny in all the bulls the AI companys bought they still havent found a replacement for cf52 yet

how do you mean flatout? i thought if anything that opinion had changed on him and that he was no longer regarded in such a good light?
ive a nice pb heifer outta him that will be 2 now shortly, her mother is a good milky cow whatever way this one will work out, his heifers are not greatly regarded i believe

Muckit

vanderbadger wrote: »

how do you mean flatout? i thought if anything that opinion had changed on him and that he was no longer regarded in such a good light?
ive a nice pb heifer outta him that will be 2 now shortly, her mother is a good milky cow whatever way this one will work out, his heifers are not greatly regarded i believe

I don't think his daughters had great milk. He was a good terminal sire though. Some lads would say his functionality was poor too

flatout11

vanderbadger wrote: »

how do you mean flatout? i thought if anything that opinion had changed on him and that he was no longer regarded in such a good light?
ive a nice pb heifer outta him that will be 2 now shortly, her mother is a good milky cow whatever way this one will work out, his heifers are not greatly regarded i believe

fair enough as cows his daughters (bar the odd exception) wouldnt have enough milk for a cat :rolleyes: but as a terminal sire (what he was bred for) for either weanlings or finishing id have him back in the morning

pakalasa

KIB - Limkiln Bosco, is a CF52 son. There's a few more too still around, I think.

flatout11

pakalasa wrote: »

KIB - Limkiln Bosco, is a CF52 son. There's a few more too still around, I think.

there is a fair few of his sons about with victor bosco admiral being the best examples but none to match the origional
jst find a lot of the ch ai bulls quite dissappointing over the last few years

sheeper

it really all depends on your females !!!

most of the bulls are very suitable for 1st time calvers if the female is good enough with size and power

i have used Major on 1st time calver s and have had no problems

the problem is that the females are not god enough

john mayo 10

i have a smashing ch bull calf out of HWN this year and have good calfs out of CF85 . i had a great bull calf a few years ago out of MOGADOR . just out of curiousty i have a few cows in calf to CXY and PIO this year, does anyone have any calfs by these ch bulls?

Muckit

john mayo 10 wrote: »

i have a smashing ch bull calf out of HWN this year

I'm jealous! I had a big PB heifer in calf to him two years ago and even though got the vet to assist, we lost him Savage of a bull calf.

Good to know some lad had better luck Did you put him on a commercial or PB cow?

john mayo 10

the calf is out of an decent ch cow shes not pure bred or anything and she only has 3 tits she lost a quarter 2 years ago

Bizzum

sheeper wrote: »

it really all depends on your females !!!

most of the bulls are very suitable for 1st time calvers if the female is good enough with size and power

i have used Major on 1st time calver s and have had no problems

the problem is that the females are not god enough

Several factors come into play, as well as the female involved. you would be in the minority using a bull like Major on a heifer, this doesn't make you wrong though, whatever works for you. I can say that size and power is not in itself a guarantee of having a easy calving. if only it was so!

I often think however that on paper the difference between the bulls being advertised "for mature cows" or "use only on cows" and "easy calving" is not as wide as you would think, though I note PG have "average" rating!

Bizzum

john mayo 10 wrote: »

i have a smashing ch bull calf out of HWN this year and have good calfs out of CF85 . i had a great bull calf a few years ago out of MOGADOR . just out of curiousty i have a few cows in calf to CXY and PIO this year, does anyone have any calfs by these ch bulls?

I have used neither CYX or PIO. Mogador was a bull i liked.
In Dovea I've used Alcazar and Roundhill Doc and I think I have a cow in calf to Fury Action.
Nice stock off Alcazar, we are keeping a stock bull off him for the commercial cows.
I have a very stylish R Doc heifer calf this year too.

vanderbadger

Bizzum wrote: »

I have used neither CYX or PIO. Mogador was a bull i liked.
In Dovea I've used Alcazar and Roundhill Doc and I think I have a cow in calf to Fury Action.
Nice stock off Alcazar, we are keeping a stock bull off him for the commercial cows.
I have a very stylish R Doc heifer calf this year too.

what do you think of cloverfield excellent from dovea, have a young bull out of roundhill doc

flatout11

Bizzum wrote: »

I have used neither CYX or PIO. Mogador was a bull i liked.
In Dovea I've used Alcazar and Roundhill Doc and I think I have a cow in calf to Fury Action.
Nice stock off Alcazar, we are keeping a stock bull off him for the commercial cows.
I have a very stylish R Doc heifer calf this year too.

mogador was a highly underated bull - left super tops on bulls
lads say fury action is leaving cattle a bit small - u see much of him

Bizzum

vanderbadger wrote: »

what do you think of cloverfield excellent from dovea, have a young bull out of roundhill doc

I haven't used CXY so I know nothing much about him. Enough muscle in the pedigree anyway!

flatout11 wrote: »

mogador was a highly underated bull - left super tops on bulls
lads say fury action is leaving cattle a bit small - u see much of him

MDO left some good cows after himself too. I wonder is he still about?
I bought a few straws of Fury Action, and thinking about it now I really dunno why:rolleyes:. Good salesman maybe! I haven't seen any stock off him, his calving figures are gone through the roof in the last 18mths too I see. He could do a job though.
What are your thoughts on Indurain?

bogman_bass

MDO can still be got. Great bull

Bizzum

bogman_bass wrote: »

MDO can still be got. Great bull

I thought you'd know the answer to that question:)

bogman_bass

Its not what you know its who you know;)

whymeagain

vanderbadger wrote: »

what do you think of cloverfield excellent from dovea,

i have lovely young bull out of cloverfield only a few months old and taking great shape easy calving and very lively at birth

sheeper

MDO was not a bad bull but shame about the ugly heads

Bizzum

sheeper wrote: »

MDO was not a bad bull but shame about the ugly heads

I never noticed any issues with his head. If you have a cow with a plain head and you wat an ugly calf, try Excellent!

Have you any thoughts on Indurain?

pakalasa

The best commercial charolais weanling I've ever seen sold in a mart, the guy announced him as bred by Mogador. I wasn't even suckling at the time, but I always remember that.

flatout11

Bizzum wrote: »

I never noticed any issues with his head. If you have a cow with a plain head and you wat an ugly calf, try Excellent!

Have you any thoughts on Indurain?

induran is ok he will breed straight bulls, heifers aint got a lot of milk and the calves can be a bit short and bellyish id prefer mogador

john mayo 10

has anyone had any calves by dovea pinocchio ?

vanderbadger

lads what did ye think of the CH stand at the ploughing, I didnt think it was great somehow..also it seem just from reading some of the CH sales reports on the Ch website that some breeders seem to be using their own stock bulls as sires as opposed to ai, that mclean guy from donegal comes to mind, he seemed to do great business this year and I think alot of his bull were from his stock bull, who is probably as good as any ai bull I guess, the breeder I bought my own bull from also was using a stock bull he had brought from France, is this becoming more common ?

flatout11

vanderbadger wrote: »

lads what did ye think of the CH stand at the ploughing, I didnt think it was great somehow..also it seem just from reading some of the CH sales reports on the Ch website that some breeders seem to be using their own stock bulls as sires as opposed to ai, that mclean guy from donegal comes to mind, he seemed to do great business this year and I think alot of his bull were from his stock bull, who is probably as good as any ai bull I guess, the breeder I bought my own bull from also was using a stock bull he had brought from France, is this becoming more common ?

ah only with the bigger breeders, but as is said earlier none of the bulls over the last few years have set the sales rings alight

sheeper

Yep using a stock bull is becoming more common esp people bringing them in from france

The only problem with this is your star rating will suffer as a result of using french bulls be it ai or stock bulls as all bulls that come into the country start at 100

so even if you buy the paris champion u start at 100

Muckit

vanderbadger wrote: »

lads what did ye think of the CH stand at the ploughing, I didnt think it was great somehow..also it seem just from reading some of the CH sales reports on the Ch website that some breeders seem to be using their own stock bulls as sires as opposed to ai, that mclean guy from donegal comes to mind, he seemed to do great business this year and I think alot of his bull were from his stock bull, who is probably as good as any ai bull I guess, the breeder I bought my own bull from also was using a stock bull he had brought from France, is this becoming more common ?

Yes that Roughan herd (Patrick McClean) certainly produces the goods. Always up there with the tops at shows and sales, both in terms of prizes he wins and money his bulls commands.

Patrick McCabe (Blakestown) also imports alot of his stock bulls. I think serious pedigree breeders have to to ensure that they are a good outcross.

flatout11

sheeper wrote: »

Yep using a stock bull is becoming more common esp people bringing them in from france

The only problem with this is your star rating will suffer as a result of using french bulls be it ai or stock bulls as all bulls that come into the country start at 100

so even if you buy the paris champion u start at 100

theres more to life than stars besides most of the top 5 star charos on the active bull list are french - and a fair few of them were from the show ring - go figure, i find it funny when i read articles on taking ped breeding out of the show ring when thats where the top AI bulls are purchased from, the performance tested bulls from ireland or indeed france havent had a major inpact on the stars 'list' have they????

sheeper

the stars are most certainly not everything !!!

BUT

i have often seen a man walk away from a very good bull (with ribbon) due to the star rating the bull has received
and seen men pay good money for a bull that has his 5* rating!!

so there is a problem for the breeder who want to bring in new bloodline or bull to breed for a female line as they will receive a poor star rating atomatically

flatout11

sheeper wrote: »

the stars are most certainly not everything !!!

BUT

i have often seen a man walk away from a very good bull (with ribbon) due to the star rating the bull has received
and seen men pay good money for a bull that has his 5* rating!!

i see where your coming from, as they say theres no accounting for taste;) good money for a 5 star SBV
as one successful charolais breeder from across the water put it ' looks, pedigree and figures' in that order

sheeper

couldnt agree more
+ of course the figures can be twisted very easily

pakalasa

Muckit wrote: »

.....Patrick McCabe (Blakestown) also imports alot of his stock bulls. I think serious pedigree breeders have to to ensure that they are a good outcross.

Patsy Mccabe wrote a letter to the journal a while back complaining about this very topic. He didn't see why top bulls on the french indexes were getting so lowly rated here, just because their reliability from their testing here was so low.
He said that these new figures were like a childs colouring book, with a colour for each trait. While they didn't give a true picture, he did concede that they were "better than no picture at all". Hard to disagree with that!

pmct

I have a stock bull out of MZT who is bringing nice chx calfes how would I get the blup ratings for him. He is very easy calving we hadn't to pull one calf this year he's maternal grandfather was the same so I may use him

pakalasa

Put his tag number in here, and click on Linear Type tab.
http://www.icbf.ie/taurus/bull_search/index.php?

Muckit

pakalasa wrote: »

Patsy Mccabe wrote a letter to the journal a while back complaining about this very topic. He didn't see why top bulls on the french indexes were getting so lowly rated here, just because their reliability from their testing here was so low.
He said that these new figures were like a childs colouring book, with a colour for each trait. While they didn't give a true picture, he did concede that they were "better than no picture at all". Hard to disagree with that!

I also read in the Journal that their stock bull Blakestown Seigneur went to the great 'bull heaven.' I seen him in the felsh at one of their dispersal sales in Tullamore. I never seen an animal like him. An elephant. The son brought him all the way down from Louth with the tractor and one of those Joskin trailers on hydraulics that lower to the floor. They had a tent at the ploughing in 08. All seigneurs sons lined up and all like 'peas in a pod.' Exceptional quality and uniformity.

flatout11

anyone use alibaba in dovea??