Very tentative steps into family tree - help!

nkay1985

Hi all,

Seems this is a bit of a long post so I apologise in advance but hope you'll bear with me!

I've always found the idea of genealogy and family history very interesting but have never really done anything with it before. My grandmother died last week aged 97 and, while burying her, I noticed a Royal Air Force headstone.

I always knew that her own father died in the first world war which is why it intrigued me on that day but I immediately realised that my grandmother was only Bridget McCarthy once she married my grandfather and, as the name on the headstone was William McCarthy, it must refer to someone on my grandfather's side.

My grandfather died before I was born so thought I'd see what I could find out about this William McCarthy. His service number was 285603 and he died on November 24th 1918. I did a quick search and came up with this record, which lists him as "Commonwealth War Dead" (he must have been very unlucky to die right at the end of the war or else died from injuries suffered). It also shows him as leaving behind his wife Bridget McCarthy in Waterford.

I looked into viewing his service record but these are held in the British National Archives in Surrey. My brother is actually living in Surrey at the moment so maybe that's a possibility soon but that was the end of that for now.

So I thought I'd look for this family in the 1901 and 1911 censuses. I found them in 1901 - here. His age stacks up and his wife in Bridget so I'm assuming this is him.

My problem is that I can't find any mention of this family in the 1911 census. Would there be any reason for this? I can't imagine the entire family upped and left Ireland as I've never heard of this through the family.

My grandfather was born in 1913 and did have a brother called Tommy and another called Jack who I think may be the infant Thomas and 1 year-old John in 1901 but nobody seems to know if they were 12 and 13 years older than him. I reckon it probably is my grandfather's family but I'm wondering if you fine people can point me in the direction of where to go next in this puzzle.

Any good reason why they wouldn't show up in the 1911 census? Any way of finiding out for definite if this is my grandad's family? Any other lines of enquiry to follow? I really don't know a whole lot about this so would really appreciate any help you could offer.

Thanks,
Niall.

pinkypinky

Hi Niall,

My condolences on your grandmother - 97 is a fantastic age!

I would suggest that you see what civil certificates your parent and his/her siblings might have for your older generations. McCarthy is quite a common name, so I wouldn't necessarily presume you've definitely got the right family. If you find there are no civil certificates already, then I suggest getting your own parent's birth cert, to get the exact names of your grandparents, and then we can help you find your grandparents' marriage, which will tell you their fathers' names.

It's possible that the family don't appear on the census because your great-grandfather was stationed elsewhere with them on army work. Alternatively, he may be on a barracks return, where everyone is listed with just initials, and the wife and kids could be living somewhere else.

If you have a read of our sticky at the top of the forum, it details how to go about searching civil registers for births, deaths and marriage records.

nkay1985

Hi Pinky,

Thanks very much. She did live to an unreal age that I don't think I'll reach!

It's my mother's side of the family by the way as I'm a Kelly myself.

My grandfather was James McCarthy, born in July 1913 and my grandmother was Bridget Hearne, born in November 1913, if that's any use.

I thought about that regarding the army service but figured the whole family wouldn't go and, as I said, I never heard anything liike that in family stories or whatever.

I've read that sticky a few times alright. Fair play to you! There's an amazing amount of information in it but it's kind of tough to digest it all. I guess I'm only looking for guidance as to what I need to do and I can use all the information provided once I get into that!

It's a bit daunting at first but I assume you get your head around it eventually.

nkay1985

Also, just to say, the reason why I think that is the correct family in 1901 is that there were no other results that were even close and my family have traditionally been in Waterford ie. there was very little movement from Waterford over the years. But I take your point!

dido2

nkay

I would say always think theres a possiblity that the family did live outside the county they lived in, if I'm searching for anyone in the census I search by name first for all of Ireland to see how many of them are there, if theres a partical profession I'd look for that, I then narrow down by age, but age is a big issue with both census, a lot of people age 15 years or so between both census, so a few years either side of the age you think someone might be gives a bit of flexibility!

Your best bet would be to try and narrow down when you think your GPs got married and try finding matchs on family search to order a marriage cert which will give both fathers names along with addresses of where they lived at that time

I assume you mean your Great Grandmother rather than your GM, the Bridget Mc Carthy would be your GGM rather than your GM who recently passed away....
If you can figure out who was the oldest in your mothers family you should narrow down their year of marriage enough to be able to find a few possible matches...

As for the family never mentioning that they lived anywhere other than waterford, up until last night I was unaware that my dad has a half brother possibly still living, and his mother my GM came from much more interesting background than I was lead to believen and it's actually common knowledge!

nkay1985

dido2 wrote: »

nkay

I would say always think theres a possiblity that the family did live outside the county they lived in, if I'm searching for anyone in the census I search by name first for all of Ireland to see how many of them are there, if theres a partical profession I'd look for that, I then narrow down by age, but age is a big issue with both census, a lot of people age 15 years or so between both census, so a few years either side of the age you think someone might be gives a bit of flexibility!

Your best bet would be to try and narrow down when you think your GPs got married and try finding matchs on family search to order a marriage cert which will give both fathers names along with addresses of where they lived at that time

I assume you mean your Great Grandmother rather than your GM, the Bridget Mc Carthy would be your GGM rather than your GM who recently passed away....
If you can figure out who was the oldest in your mothers family you should narrow down their year of marriage enough to be able to find a few possible matches...

As for the family never mentioning that they lived anywhere other than waterford, up until last night I was unaware that my dad has a half brother possibly still living, and his mother my GM came from much more interesting background than I was lead to believen and it's actually common knowledge!

Thanks for the tips.

On the bit in bold, I can see how it's confusing. My grandmother who died last week was Bridget McCarthy (maiden name Hearne). My grandfather's mother (if I'm right in thinking that's his family) was Bridget McCarthy (after marrying William McCarthy). So they were both Bridget and both ended up as McCarthys!

I'll try to find out my grandparent's marriage date and hopefully get my hands on the marriage cert so. Thanks.

pinkypinky

You definitely need the grandparents marriage.

I had a quick look for James McCarthy/Bridget Hearne marriages in Waterford - there's a huge amount of the male name. Your best bet is to work out their oldest child's age, as someone said above, and then you can narrow down the parameters.

adee

Here's a match for the marriage

Name: James McCarthy
Registration District: Waterford
Event Type: MARRIAGES
Registration Quarter and Year: Oct - Dec 1936
Film Number: 101577
Volume Number: 4
Page Number: 343
Digital Folder Number: 4199369
Image Number: 00433

Name: Bridget Hearne
Registration District: Waterford
Event Type: MARRIAGES
Registration Quarter and Year: Oct - Dec 1936
Film Number: 101577
Volume Number: 4
Page Number: 343
Digital Folder Number: 4199369
Image Number: 00429

nkay1985

adee wrote: »

Here's a match for the marriage

Name: James McCarthy
Registration District: Waterford
Event Type: MARRIAGES
Registration Quarter and Year: Oct - Dec 1936
Film Number: 101577
Volume Number: 4
Page Number: 343
Digital Folder Number: 4199369
Image Number: 00433

Name: Bridget Hearne
Registration District: Waterford
Event Type: MARRIAGES
Registration Quarter and Year: Oct - Dec 1936
Film Number: 101577
Volume Number: 4
Page Number: 343
Digital Folder Number: 4199369
Image Number: 00429

So you look for all details to match, is it?

Thanks so much!

shanew

The details that must match for a possible marriage are the registration district, the year/quarter, volume number and page number. The other details are internal references for FamilySearch and not relevant to the match or GRO orders.

If the details match it means that both names appear on the same page of a GRO marriage register - along with the names for several other marriages.


Shane

nkay1985

shanew wrote: »

The details that must match for a possible marriage are the registration district, the year/quarter, volume number and page number. The other details are internal references for FamilySearch and not relevant to the match or GRO orders.

If the details match it means that both names appear on the same page of a GRO marriage register - along with the names for several other marriages.

Shane

Cool, thanks. I read that in Pinky's guide now that I think about it. The details of how many marriages would be listed on a page out of interest? I'm pretty sure this record is correct as they would have both been 23 and their oldest daughter would have been over 70 by now if she were alive.

shanew

nkay1985 wrote: »

.....
The details of how many marriages would be listed on a page out of interest? ....

Most of the marriage registers seem to be either 2, or 4 marriages per page


Shane

dido2

So you think the James McCarthy in the 1901 census is your GF??? or GGF...

Theres a James McCarthy here on Family search https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.2/MN9H-DRJ/p1 that looks like a good match, if you get that cert then you'd have an address for his parents...

dido2

These are the Hearnes that were born between 1913 and 1914, reason I added 1914 is because she was born in november and sometimes it may have been the following quarter rather than the one they were born in, that the birth got registered..

https://www.familysearch.org/search/records#count=20&query=%2Bsurname%3AHearne%20%2Bany_year%3A1913-1914%7E&collection_id=1408347&birth_year0=1900&birth_place0=5

dido2

Just looked again at your post and you say your GF was born in 1913 but on the 1901 census there is a James Listed which obviously wasn't your GF, which would make it possibly a wrong one...

nkay1985

dido2 wrote: »

Just looked again at your post and you say your GF was born in 1913 but on the 1901 census there is a James Listed which obviously wasn't your GF, which would make it possibly a wrong one...

Yeah that's the thing that makes me want to check it out. In 1901, William had three sons - James (3), John (1) and Thomas (1 month). Obviously the James here isn't my grandfather and my mother doesn't know anything about an older James but her dad did have brothers called Tommy and Jack (which is used for John here).

So I'm wondering if William is my great grandfather or maybe he's an uncle of my grandfather or something.

My mam has tracked down my grandparents' marriage cert anyway so I'm going to take a look at that tonight hopefully. I fear it might not shed much light as both of their fathers were dead by the time they got married.

dido2

The names then were all very limited, John, James, so I wouldn't automatically assume they may be right, but they could be related...
The marriage cert would have an address for them both of where they lived at the time before getting married

pinkypinky

nkay1985 wrote: »

My mam has tracked down my grandparents' marriage cert anyway so I'm going to take a look at that tonight hopefully. I fear it might not shed much light as both of their fathers were dead by the time they got married.

It should still have their names, even if they're dead.

nkay1985

pinkypinky wrote: »

It should still have their names, even if they're dead.

Yeah I think you said that they are sometimes left blank in your little guide.

Anyways I wasn't out of luck. Both father's names and professions are listed.

My grandfather's dad is listed as William McCarthy (we've heard that name before!) and his profession was "mason", which our William from the 1901 census also was (brick and stone mason).

My grandmother's father is listed as John Hearne and his profession was "soldier". This would tally with the story of him dying in the first world war that I always heard.

So it looks like I do have the correct family but the issue of the older James still remains. My wife was at a talk with John Grenham in the library this evening (I had to work!:mad:) and he said it was very common in the early 20th century for a family to have a child that died and to subsequently name another child by the same name as a tribute. So that's a possibility.

But I'm at somewhat of a roadblock now. Wondering where they all disappeared to in 1911. And trying to find a way of linking my grandfather to this family for certain.

I have a couple if feelers out for more information on William's military history and now John Hearne's story might be another avenue.

dido2

I've heard that too about naming a subsequent child after one that had died so it could be possible....
Was there any addresses on the marriage cert???

I think it wasn't uncommon either to not appear on the 1911 census as some people were in hiding or just didn't want to put their name to anything....

I would think though that military records might give an idea as to if they were stationed in some barracks..

nkay1985

dido2 wrote: »

I've heard that too about naming a subsequent child after one that had died so it could be possible....
Was there any addresses on the marriage cert???

I think it wasn't uncommon either to not appear on the 1911 census as some people were in hiding or just didn't want to put their name to anything....

I would think though that military records might give an idea as to if they were stationed in some barracks..

Yeah there were two addresses. My grandfather lived in Ballytruckle in Waterford and my grandmother lived in Robinson's Lane, also in Waterford. The address in 1901 is Little Patrick Street and the address of Bridget when William died was St. Lawrence's Terrace.

The barracks idea is a possibility alright but I reckon he was just a man who signed up for the army once the war started as a way to make money, rather than a career soldier.

dido2

It's puzzling isn't it, I even looked at the census to see if they were maybe staying with someone else the night of the 1911 census, which is still possible, that they could have all been in different places on that night....

dido2

Theres a Bridget Mc Carthy who was single in census 1911 but lived in Ballytruckle
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Waterford/Waterford_No__4_Urban/Ballytruckle/674217/
possibly a sister of your GGF

nkay1985

Yeah I've come across her on a few of my searches alright. I thought it was interesting that she was in Ballytruckle! Maybe there is some connection there but I think I'll have to delve into the family lore to see if anyone has any reason why they wouldn't be around in 1911. It just seems so unlikely that they would be here 10 years earlier and 7 years later (and ever since) but not at that time.

nkay1985

Zombie thread awaken!


Hi all. So almost 7 years and a few attempts to restart later, I'm back at this with one major purpose - to find out, if possible, where my great grandfather John Hearne died and was buried during WWI. I've sprung for a World account on findmypast.ie and here's where I am:


Hopefully somebody in here can advise me on whether I'm right or wrong.

I have my grandmother Bridget's (Bridie) birth record from 10th November 1913, father John Hearne, mother Mary Ryan. (Attached to post)

I have a marriage record of John Hearne and Mary Ryan from 7th June 1913. (Attached to post)

Searching under the Military, Service and Conflict heading (using the Ireland account) for John Hearne from Waterford gives the following:



So that's two different John Hearnes from Waterford that died in WWI, service numbers 6464 and 7549.

Continued in next post so I can upload more...

nkay1985

This is where I was stuck before but when I got the World membership, I was able to find a service record for John Hearne, service number 6464.



There's lots of information within the service record but most interesting in terms of looking for my great grandfather are the questions put to the recruit:


Are you married? No.

Also the next of kin section:


Listing a father, Maurice and mother, Margaret.


So John Hearne, service number 6464, is not married and his father is Maurice Hearne. He's obviously not the same John Hearne who married Mary Ryan, whose father was Thomas Hearne and who would have been listed as married on his service record.


My question is, can I take it that the other John Hearne, service number 7549, is my great grandfather? There is no great information in his record that I can use to confirm it:


But if there were only two John Hearnes from Waterford who died in WWI and one of them is definitely not my great grandfather, can we say for certain that the other one is?

I know for a fact that he did die in WWI, by the way. That is well-established through family lore; his wife Mary re-married and my grandmother had a number of half-siblings.

My parents told my grandmother before she died that they would visit her father's grave, seeing as she never got to, so I'd love to be able to nail it down for them. I'm also going to France next week myself so would possibly go there.

Apologies for the information overload but just hoping those of you with more experience might be able to tell me where I am on this whole thing!

Thanks a million,
Niall.

pinkypinky

The short answer is no, you can't presume, because not all the records survive and there may be other same named men not listed or ones who don't have Waterford listed. Have you reviewed the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website? I just took a quick look and didn't spot anything obvious but you know more about the person.

The GRO in Roscommon maintains a list of army deaths up to 1921. It's not perfect for WWI considering how many there were but you could also ask them to search there. It's not available in the reading room.

When did your g grandmother remarry?

nkay1985

pinkypinky wrote: »

The short answer is no, you can't presume, because not all the records survive and there may be other same named men not listed or ones who don't have Waterford listed. Have you reviewed the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website? I just took a quick look and didn't spot anything obvious but you know more about the person.

The GRO in Roscommon maintains a list of army deaths up to 1921. It's not perfect for WWI considering how many there were but you could also ask them to search there. It's not available in the reading room.

When did your g grandmother remarry?

Hey. Thanks for the reply. I've been on the CWGC website a good bit alright. I'll take another look with the new information I have.

Am I just going to be looking for all other John Hearnes and trying to rule them out? It'd obviously be a lot easier to rule somebody in than out but I can't see how I can do that.

Edit: I'm not entirely certain when my g grandmother renarried but I should be able to track this down easily enough within the family. Maybe this might give something more I guess.

nkay1985

So my g grandmother remarried on 6th February 1918 and had a status of widowed. Other than that, I don't see that it yields any additional info. I guess it will rule out any John Hearnes that died after this date.

Is there any record of people receiving widow's pension or army pension or anything like that? I really just need to link a John Hearne death to Mary Hearne (nee Ryan).

pedroeibar1

nkay1985 wrote: »

So my g grandmother remarried on 6th February 1918 and had a status of widowed. Other than that, I don't see that it yields any additional info. I guess it will rule out any John Hearnes that died after this date.

I believe you could predate that by a minimum of six months. Usually a widow / widower leave a period between death of the spouse and remarrying for 'decency'. Frequently it was about 2 years but in times of war, and he away / enlisted for a long period, the delay period might have been shorter. I'd initially concentrate on those who died pre July 1917.

pinkypinky

Yes, Pedro's advice is sensible, and it's exactly why I asked you when she remarried. Remarriage would almost certainly have excluded her from any pension entitlements.

Have you looked at Waterford newspapers for the war period? Often local papers recorded local deaths in more detail, so it might help you narrow down the field.

The Memorials of the dead shows 3 Irish men called John Hearne. You can't exclude the third guy just because it doesn't say Waterford, especially because he was in the Royal Munster Fusiliers.

However, I think I have the answer for you. He's in the Soldier's Wills index on the NAI site. 7549 is him.
http://soldierswills.nationalarchives.ie/reels/sw/HearneJ_E204829.pdf

nkay1985

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I believe you could predate that by a minimum of six months. Usually a widow / widower leave a period between death of the spouse and remarrying for 'decency'. Frequently it was about 2 years but in times of war, and he away / enlisted for a long period, the delay period might have been shorter. I'd initially concentrate on those who died pre July 1917.

Cool, and try to rule out anybody other than the two I've noted then, I suppose.

nkay1985

pinkypinky wrote: »

Yes, Pedro's advice is sensible, and it's exactly why I asked you when she remarried. Remarriage would almost certainly have excluded her from any pension entitlements.

Have you looked at Waterford newspapers for the war period? Often local papers recorded local deaths in more detail, so it might help you narrow down the field.

The Memorials of the dead shows 3 Irish men called John Hearne. You can't exclude the third guy just because it doesn't say Waterford, especially because he was in the Royal Munster Fusiliers.

However, I think I have the answer for you. He's in the Soldier's Wills index on the NAI site. 7549 is him.
http://soldierswills.nationalarchives.ie/reels/sw/HearneJ_E204829.pdf

Oh my God, amazing. Thank you so much. That's unreal to have that confirmation.

Can't wait to tell my mam. 😀

And to carry on with more research!

spurious

I used to be involved with a project photographing war graves. They should be able to supply you with a high quality photograph of any grave, or name on a memorial.
http://www.britishwargraves.co.uk/

nkay1985

spurious wrote: »

I used to be involved with a project photographing war graves. They should be able to supply you with a high quality photograph of any grave, or name on a memorial.
http://www.britishwargraves.co.uk/

Thanks for that. I'm going to France on Thursday and next week I'll only be about an hour and a half away from the cemetery so we're going to pay the grave a visit. I think we'll more than likely be the first people ever to specifically visit his grave which will be cool.

pedroeibar1

The CWGC site will give you grave and cemetery details HERE, including map

nkay1985

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

The CWGC site will give you grave and cemetery details HERE, including map

Yeah thanks I have all that, I just finally know for certain which one he is. He's buried in Fricourt in France. Died just before the battle of the somme. All very interesting

Taurusire

I believe the John Hearne you are looking for may be my grandfathers brother. My grandfathers name was Edward Hearne and his siblings were John, Mary(Sissy), James, Michael, William, Alice (died young), and Annie.
Their father Thomas appears to have used two surnames, Hearne and Fogarty.
Thomas (Fogarty) married Bridget Waters in 1884. Most of their childrens births were registered as Fogarty, with the exception of Annie. John was registered as Peter John Fogarty b.1886 and they lived in Water Street at that time. They then moved to no.1 Roches Street. We believe John moved to no. 18 Roche's Street after marrying Mary Ryan, and had two daughters Bridget and Alice before dying in WW1.
It seems that Thomas was using both names until at least 1911. They appear to have solely used the Hearne surname after this time.
Only Bridget Hearne and their children are listed in 1901 census at no.1 Roche's Street (Thomas not present) and they are listed as Fogorty (spelling error) in the 1911 census. Hope this helps.

Taurusire

Also just to add that if you check the wedding records for Bridget Hearne and James McCarthy, you will see that Mary Lonergan is named as a witness. Lonergan is the marriage name of Mary Hearne (John's sister).