Fitness in boxing and fighting sports

Hanley

g'em wrote: »

I believe that Hanley was responding to Gintonious quoting Barry McGuigan and the use/ non-use of steady state cardio as a fitness tool for boxers.

That’s the one. I used to buy into the “whole steady state is out dated” mode of thinking but the more I’ve read about it, the more I realise there’s a need for a high level of aerobic conditioning underpinning a fighters HIIT training. And neither really provides an appropriate stimulus to ensure the other is maximized.

The longer you stay in the aerobic “zone”, the longer you can produce a continuous level of force output, the longer it takes for lactate to start accumulating and effecting performance and the faster you recover between rounds. As aerobic conditioning improves, you can maintain a higher level of force/power output before going anaerobic and suffering heavy arms and heavy legs.

Admittedly most of my reading on this has been pure theory, but it makes a lot of sense and additional aerobic work in my training has definitely helped my endurance and recovery between rounds in BJJ. If anyone has anything else to add, or corrections to make, I’d be interested in hearing it.

But once again, the pendulum is swinging. It used to be all road work, and then it was all sprints... I can’t wait for it to return to centre and for people to start realising you need both. Tbh I think it’s probably there already in a sporting context, but on the internet... Well.

Also - McGuigan making those claims... didn’t his son also claim Carl Frampton was 2% body fat? I’d be very hesitant to listen to or believe ANYTHING that family says in regards fitness or human performance.

Barry.Oglesby

Hanley wrote: »

The longer you stay in the aerobic “zone”, the longer you can produce a continuous level of force output, the longer it takes for lactate to start accumulating and effecting performance and the faster you recover between rounds. As aerobic conditioning improves, you can maintain a higher level of force/power output before going anaerobic and suffering heavy arms and heavy legs.

The other, far more realistic method of discovering what helps fighters get fit is this:
Train a whole heap of guys over a concerted period of time. Watch them gas, or not, or get overpowered, or not. The find a method and stick to it, adding in bits and pieces of beneficial information that comes your way. That's what every coach in the world has done, ever.

It's just plain funny that every swinging dick who has ever read the crossfit blog or someone's T-Nation article suddenly thinks he can scoff at the billions of cumulative training hours of boxers and their coaches. These guys make their money from this game, do you really think they're blind to weight training?

Ask yourself this- Heavyweights aside (they've got larger), are the fighters today any leaner, any faster, and stronger or more able to go 12 rounds than the fighters of 1984 for example?

A more interesting question for me is if they're any more skillful. Personally I think generally no and that's why Mayweather stands out, but that's for another day.

Hanley

The other, far more realistic method of discovering what helps fighters get fit is this:
Train a whole heap of guys over a concerted period of time. Watch them gas, or not, or get overpowered, or not. The find a method and stick to it, adding in bits and pieces of beneficial information that comes your way. That's what every coach in the world has done, ever.

It's just plain funny that every swinging dick who has ever read the crossfit blog or someone's T-Nation article suddenly thinks he can scoff at the billions of cumulative training hours of boxers and their coaches. These guys make their money from this game, do you really think they're blind to weight training?

Yarrr… that takes time, it’s much easier to stand on the shoulders of giants and try to interpret their writings to see what works.

So whatcha think, LIT + dedicated HIIT, LIT + fight specific training (pads, grappling, etc etc), a combo of the above??

I’m bored in work, lets have a discussion!!

cowzerp

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Ask yourself this- Heavyweights aside (they've got larger), are the fighters today any leaner, any faster, and stronger or more able to go 12 rounds than the fighters of 1984 for example?

Plus it's worth noting that fighters used to do 15 rd fights up till 1988 when the last to agree the IBF changed it to 12 rounds max and fights where more likely to be wars than these days where technicians are definitely in the majority

Barry.Oglesby

They don't make them like Duran anymore.

g'em

guys I've moved this to a thread on its own because it's a fascinating topic and I'd love to get a discussion going - if the title is wrong or should be different just let me know!

g'em

A question for those in the know: in fighting sports (is it ok to lump them all under an umbrella term like that? ) for all the internet experts who claim that fitness training should be done via X, Y and Z method has anything actually changed in the regimes of the guys at the top or are they still training as they were before terms like HIIT became buzzwords?

cowzerp

Been honest most striking sports have similar fitness needs-but then grappling style arts are quite different so what works for a boxer won't transfer directly into what helps a Wrestler in a match and likewise even though both are really intense.

daveyc21

Another point to note on this topic is the hypothesis that a fighter's individual genetic abilities should dictate how they should be trained. I know that Clyde Hart (Michael Johnson's coach) training methods were based off the idea that Michael had such a high level of natural speed that to train speed would be an inefficient use of training times. Hence he concentrated on developing his ability to maintain speed and form through sprint endurance. this caused his training times were mediocre in relation to what he produced in races. I think Tyson Gay's coach takes a similar approach from what I have read.

Making this a general discussion on fight sports opens up as well that certain fight sports are principally anaerobic in nature e.g. mma wrestling etc. where the intensity is high. I think the argument for these type of fighters training long hours of roadwork is maybe a little weak (not claiming to be an expert on conditioning fighters). The opposite would be true for boxers who are fighting long periods at lower intensity. I would imagine long runs with sprint intervals included in them e.g. fardlek style work would more closely mimic fights i.e periods of lower intensity work with bouts of high intensity.

Barry.Oglesby

Hanley wrote: »

So whatcha think, LIT + dedicated HIIT, LIT + fight specific training (pads, grappling, etc etc), a combo of the above??

No I think it's too individual to prescribe anything like a formula to it. I prefer to ask open ended questions in a list, like this:

What are you prepared to lose out on to get stronger?

How strong do you need to be for your sport? How much aerobic capacity do you need?

How much of your regular training (sparring, pads, grappling) are you prepared to give up on, be tired for, to achieve those ends?

G'em wrote:

A question for those in the know: in fighting sports (is it ok to lump them all under an umbrella term like that? ) for all the internet experts who claim that fitness training should be done via X, Y and Z method has anything actually changed in the regimes of the guys at the top or are they still training as they were before terms like HIIT became buzzwords?

I think by and large, it's a con. The things that guys are videoing and showing all over youtube are achieving almost exactly what boxers were achieving 30 years ago, they're just more "sciency-like". They're swinging battling ropes like there's no tomorrow but 20 years ago they would have been doing high intensity pad rounds or weighted punching or something. Everything is new and improved and comes with the stamp of approval of some internet expert trying to flog a DVD. It's a fvcking con.

And I'll tell you why it's a con too. Those guys who are training like that? They've spent 20 years before that doing round after round on the pads, sparring, grappling, kicking, learning the skills of movement, of countering, feinting, shooting, sprawling, changing angles, getting leverage, finishing... all of the important things. Now they need an edge and some of them, they just need a psychological change. they need to feel like they're freshening it up or that they're doing something their opponent isn't.

And then the videos come to the attention of the guy walking into a gym for the first time and he thinks his coach is backward because he's asking him to stand in front of the mirror for 30 minutes jabbing the air, or he gets him to spend 20 minutes stepping forward and backward. This ain't science! This ain't fighting! Where's the kettlebell? Where's the sled? Why do I keep getting cracked in the nose when I jab? It MUST be my fitness!

Another quick fix product, packaged and sold to you because it takes one day to learn how to push a sled or lift a weight and 10 years before you realise that no matter how much you know you still know nothing. It's a con.

Barry.Oglesby

http://www.ultimatefighter.com/videos/13614/sneak-peek-the-french-connection

daveyc21

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

And then the videos come to the attention of the guy walking into a gym for the first time and he thinks his coach is backward because he's asking him to stand in front of the mirror for 30 minutes jabbing the air, or he gets him to spend 20 minutes stepping forward and backward. This ain't science! This ain't fighting! Where's the kettlebell? Where's the sled? Why do I keep getting cracked in the nose when I jab? It MUST be my fitness!

Another quick fix product, packaged and sold to you because it takes one day to learn how to push a sled or lift a weight and 10 years before you realise that no matter how much you know you still know nothing. It's a con.

A pretty good summary of training for any sport in the internet age.

cowzerp

daveyc21 wrote: »

The opposite would be true for boxers who are fighting long periods at lower intensity. I would imagine long runs with sprint intervals included in them e.g. fardlek style work would more closely mimic fights i.e periods of lower intensity work with bouts of high intensity.

Boxing is anything but low intensity!!

It's more intense than MMA to be honest, what i would say is your not wrong in a sense-MMA is more anaerobic but it tends to be well paced and just very short bursts of Anaerobic work, there is also Aerobic elements to it but again tend to be shorter periods, lot's of stages in an MMA match to get a breather that justis not there in Boxing unless your elite and can control the pace like Mayweather/Klitscko for example

Boxing is High intensity Aerobic work and stays at a high intensity throughout the fight in most fights, i've had fighters who have fought 3x3 min rounds of MMA who have been shocked how tired they where after 1, 2 min round of Boxing. fighting now not sparring where it's more relaxed etc.

boomtown84

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

http://www.ultimatefighter.com/videos/13614/sneak-peek-the-french-connection

that dude is fookin class to watch!looks so effortless.

daveyc21

cowzerp wrote: »

Boxing is anything but low intensity!!

It's more intense than MMA to be honest, what i would say is your not wrong in a sense-MMA is more anaerobic but it tends to be well paced and just very short bursts of Anaerobic work, there is also Aerobic elements to it but again tend to be shorter periods, lot's of stages in an MMA match to get a breather that justis not there in Boxing unless your elite and can control the pace like Mayweather/Klitscko for example

Boxing is High intensity Aerobic work and stays at a high intensity throughout the fight in most fights, i've had fighters who have fought 3x3 min rounds of MMA who have been shocked how tired they where after 1, 2 min round of Boxing. fighting now not sparring where it's more relaxed etc.

I may not have phrased that correctly boxing is lower intensity in terms of total physical effort expended i.e. you only punch not kick grapple elbow knee etc. You may feel more tired boxing if you havent done it before getting used to just constantly using your hands. It would also explain the physical differences in fighters. MMA guys tend to look like sprinters with a more muscular build exceptions noted while boxers tend to look more like endurance athletes again exceptions noted.

Barry.Oglesby

daveyc21 wrote: »

I may not have phrased that correctly boxing is lower intensity in terms of total physical effort expended i.e. you only punch not kick grapple elbow knee etc.

Nah that's bollocks.

I say again. A better fighter is more efficient and expends less energy, so if you'd like to be less tired at the end of a bout, get better at it. Don't spend any time in the weight room that you could be spending in the ring or on the mats.

cowzerp

That's true-when I spar beginners I don't break a sweat, when with equally or better opponents you have to do more work, hence why Mayweather never looks tired

paulmclaughlin

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

http://www.ultimatefighter.com/videos/13614/sneak-peek-the-french-connection

That was an awesome episode. I wanted him to kick Koscheck's ass when he said something to him but unfortunately he didn't.

daveyc21

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Nah that's bollocks.

I say again. A better fighter is more efficient and expends less energy, so if you'd like to be less tired at the end of a bout, get better at it. Don't spend any time in the weight room that you could be spending in the ring or on the mats.

Thats kind of an unrelated point Barry. One which I do agree with mind especially in jitz which is so technically weighted that you could spend literally years to become proficient in it.

Barry.Oglesby

daveyc21 wrote: »

Thats kind of an unrelated point Barry. One which I do agree with mind especially in jitz which is so technically weighted that you could spend literally years to become proficient in it.

No it's entirely related. If people spent more time training maybe they wouldn't need as much time jogging or doing sprints, or deciding whether to jog or do sprints, or doing both jogging and sprints simultaneously, or jogging, then sprinting then jogging again.

Yes Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (jitz is something that comes out of your willy when you're sick, I think) is full of technique, but there are really only very limited movements and positions, and all of the techniques are derivations of those. Boxing, Muay Thai, Wrestling have lots of techniques, but the fundamentals of footwork, timing, positioning, ringcraft etc. are the building blocks, just like Jiu Jitsu which has movement, posture, timing etc. etc.

If it were as simple as punching and kicking and then just being fit enough to punch and kick for longer than anyone could do it.

dave80

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

If people spent more time training maybe they wouldn't need as much time jogging or doing sprints, or deciding whether to jog or do sprints, or doing both jogging and sprints simultaneously, or jogging, then sprinting then jogging again

But wat if you cant make classes more than 2-3 times per week due to work, family etc but hav 1/2 hr to kill at lunch?

Hanley

dave80 wrote: »

But wat if you cant make classes more than 2-3 times per week due to work, family etc but hav 1/2 hr to kill at lunch?

...then you're probably not a professional fighter

Seriously tho, I'd like to hear some discussion on this scenario too.

mushykeogh

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Nah that's bollocks.

I say again. A better fighter is more efficient and expends less energy, so if you'd like to be less tired at the end of a bout, get better at it. Don't spend any time in the weight room that you could be spending in the ring or on the mats.

Is that not a bit one dimensional? Theres a similar argument raging in soccer at the moment too, some physical coaches doing all their fitness work with the ball and nothing else, others combining ball work, fitness and strength as separate components.

For me, training the sport is the best way of getting fit for your sport, but i think there is a place for more generic work, be it cardio, mobility or strength.

If you are facing an opponent who for argument sake is of an identical skill level (i know, i know, im just sayin), then maybe the crucial factor could be who is fitter near the end of the fight to execute the technique first, or faster, or have more strength to defend a technique and execute your own?

The method at which you get a superior fitness/strength edge will prob vary from coach to coach etc.

daveyc21

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

No it's entirely related. If people spent more time training maybe they wouldn't need as much time jogging or doing sprints, or deciding whether to jog or do sprints, or doing both jogging and sprints simultaneously, or jogging, then sprinting then jogging again.

Yes Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (jitz is something that comes out of your willy when you're sick, I think) is full of technique, but there are really only very limited movements and positions, and all of the techniques are derivations of those. Boxing, Muay Thai, Wrestling have lots of techniques, but the fundamentals of footwork, timing, positioning, ringcraft etc. are the building blocks, just like Jiu Jitsu which has movement, posture, timing etc. etc.

If it were as simple as punching and kicking and then just being fit enough to punch and kick for longer than anyone could do it.

Barry there is no way doing the actual sport makes you better at it. What Russian sports science literature do you have to back this up?? I thought the discussion related to whether steady state cardio or sprint style workouts were better for fight sports. I also thought calling it jitz was quite witty I was hoping it would catch on so I wouldnt be the only one calling it that.

mushykeogh

Now, to back up Barrys statement, years ago i trained for a month in thailand, the power of those guys leg kicks were vomit inducing, and all achieved form kicking the pads repeatedly, not a squat rack or olympic bar in sight.

Good discussion, maybe the answer depends on how much time are you willing to put in?

daveyc21

mushykeogh wrote: »

Now, to back up Barrys statement, years ago i trained for a month in thailand, the power of those guys leg kicks were vomit inducing, and all achieved form kicking the pads repeatedly, not a squat rack or olympic bar in sight.

Good discussion, maybe the answer depends on how much time are you willing to put in?

Barry's point was of course correct (as I agreed with it in the post directly after) but was a tangent to the discussion as outline in the op.

columok

daveyc21 wrote: »

Barry there is no way doing the actual sport makes you better at it. What Russian sports science literature do you have to back this up?? I thought the discussion related to whether steady state cardio or sprint style workouts were better for fight sports. I also thought calling it jitz was quite witty I was hoping it would catch on so I wouldnt be the only one calling it that.

I have defo never heard jitz people call jitz 'jitz'. How dare you.

SanoVitae

Very interesting thread.

I'm actually entering a White Collar Boxing event - the boxing training starts on October 24th, with the fight happening on December 3.

My approach will be to spend the next 4 weeks building a cardio base (i.e. general fitness level), using steady state cardio (rower, stepper, threadmill, bike etc). I'll also include some low-intensity padwork and bagwork so I can get a feel for the demands of the fight - it's 3 rounds X 90 seconds of mayhem with 1 minute of rest in between rounds.

When the training starts, I'll most likely back off from the steady-state work and change the cardio work to interval-style e.g. 3 rounds of 90 seconds of rowing, with 1 minute rest in between. Obviously, my emphasis will be on sparring, rounds on the bag and pad work.

Any thoughts on my approach? Would greatly appreciate any feedback.

Hanley

SanoVitae wrote: »

Very interesting thread.

I'm actually entering a White Collar Boxing event - the boxing training starts on October 24th, with the fight happening on December 3.

My approach will be to spend the next 4 weeks building a cardio base (i.e. general fitness level), using steady state cardio (rower, stepper, threadmill, bike etc). I'll also include some low-intensity padwork and bagwork so I can get a feel for the demands of the fight - it's 3 rounds X 90 seconds of mayhem with 1 minute of rest in between rounds.

When the training starts, I'll most likely back off from the steady-state work and change the cardio work to interval-style e.g. 3 rounds of 90 seconds of rowing, with 1 minute rest in between. Obviously, my emphasis will be on sparring, rounds on the bag and pad work.

Any thoughts on my approach? Would greatly appreciate any feedback.

I was stuck in a hotel in Tipperary for the week and a half before mine earlier this year, all I could do was bag work and row intervals - I can say without a shadow of a doubt, it was a terrible way to prep. Better than nothing, but terrible nonetheless!!

I'd have loved more time sparring or on the pads, if you have that option, take it with both hands.

cowzerp

Do boxing training where possible and then do the other stuff when you can't, Cardio outside boxing has to help but just think of it as an extra-been fit to row, run etc does not mean you will be fit to box, the fact your heart should get good workout is good but the muscles and how there used is very different obviously.

Barry.Oglesby

dave80 wrote: »

But wat if you cant make classes more than 2-3 times per week due to work, family etc but hav 1/2 hr to kill at lunch?

Sorry Dave I missed this. It really comes down to the available partners/equipment/time alright so doing some strength or fitness work would be highly advantageous in the absence of anything else.

mushykeogh wrote:

Is that not a bit one dimensional? Theres a similar argument raging in soccer at the moment too, some physical coaches doing all their fitness work with the ball and nothing else, others combining ball work, fitness and strength as separate components.

In fairness, yes it is a bit one dimensional. There's a place for fitness work but I would say with beginners, the guys I see doing best are the guys who aren't dropping sessions to go to the gym. I'm back working with some boxers now after 2 years off and nothing has changed since I was 15 in the training, I mean not one thing, and he's still turning out fit as a fiddle, skilled boxers despite the advent of the internet. The fitness work is the bag, pads and skipping, some push ups and pull ups and some bodyweight squats.

For me, training the sport is the best way of getting fit for your sport, but i think there is a place for more generic work, be it cardio, mobility or strength.

I think mobility and flexibility are hugely important. For strength, scap work, single leg and single arm, core work and pull ups. All with the idea of keeping yourself on the mat.

If you are facing an opponent who for argument sake is of an identical skill level (i know, i know, im just sayin), then maybe the crucial factor could be who is fitter near the end of the fight to execute the technique first, or faster, or have more strength to defend a technique and execute your own?

Of course, and where skill is equal, attributes will be the deciding factor, and where attributes are equal, skill will be the deciding factor. I'm not saying "don't get stronger or fitter", just that it should be in it's place.

I suppose another factor is to know what it feels like to be in a fight or a match. We can shoot the shít all day but it's all theory until you've been in the hunt, or have been in the corner for enough fights, or even trained to any decent level. I don't mean that to be condescending toward people but I tire of seeing "experts" in Strength and Conditioning tell me what it's like and how many tires I should be flipping or what such and such a coach says.

Your good self excluded mushy I know your pedigree

daveyc21

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Sorry Dave I missed this. It really comes down to the available partners/equipment/time alright so doing some strength or fitness work would be highly advantageous in the absence of anything else.

In fairness, yes it is a bit one dimensional. There's a place for fitness work but I would say with beginners, the guys I see doing best are the guys who aren't dropping sessions to go to the gym. I'm back working with some boxers now after 2 years off and nothing has changed since I was 15 in the training, I mean not one thing, and he's still turning out fit as a fiddle, skilled boxers despite the advent of the internet. The fitness work is the bag, pads and skipping, some push ups and pull ups and some bodyweight squats.

I think mobility and flexibility are hugely important. For strength, scap work, single leg and single arm, core work and pull ups. All with the idea of keeping yourself on the mat.
Of course, and where skill is equal, attributes will be the deciding factor, and where attributes are equal, skill will be the deciding factor. I'm not saying "don't get stronger or fitter", just that it should be in it's place.

I suppose another factor is to know what it feels like to be in a fight or a match. We can shoot the shít all day but it's all theory until you've been in the hunt, or have been in the corner for enough fights, or even trained to any decent level. I don't mean that to be condescending toward people but I tire of seeing "experts" in Strength and Conditioning tell me what it's like and how many tires I should be flipping or what such and such a coach says.

Your good self excluded mushy I know your pedigree

Excellent post....

mushykeogh

daveyc21 wrote: »

Excellent post....

What he said.

Sangre

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

(jitz is something that comes out of your willy when you're sick, I think)

After a BJJ?