Who do atheists thank for "luck"? (Yoinked from other thread)

Long Term Louth

Just wondering lads, who do atheists thank when they have a bit of luck?

MagicMarker

Long Term Louth wrote: »

Just wondering lads, who do atheists thank when they have a bit of luck?

Dawkins.

i say thank goodness

Coriolanus

Thank fúck, usually.

achtungbarry

Why should there be anyone to thank when it's a case of sheer luck?

Sarky

Long Term Louth wrote: »

Just wondering lads, who do atheists thank when they have a bit of luck?

Personally I just pretend I meant to be that awesome all along. But that's mostly because I'm an awful narcissist. There's nobody and nothing to thank.

robindch

Long Term Louth wrote: »

who do atheists thank when they have a bit of luck?

The effort that made the good luck more likely?

fatmammycat

Long Term Louth wrote: »

Just wondering lads, who do atheists thank when they have a bit of luck?

Nobody.

smokingman

Long Term Louth wrote: »

Just wondering lads, who do atheists thank when they have a bit of luck?

There is no such thing as luck; it is simply the human brain pattern matching between personal bias and observable events.

mikhail

smokingman wrote: »

There is no such thing as luck; it is simply the human brain pattern matching between personal bias and observable events.

Of course there's such a thing as luck. My success at darts is a random process biased by my (very modest) skill. If I win a game by throwing eight consecutive treble twenties and a double ten, that's lucky, because I can't do that repeatedly. It's just that there's no mystical force doling out luck - it's completely random.

MagicMarker

mikhail wrote: »

Of course there's such a thing as luck. My success at darts is a random process biased by my (very modest) skill. If I win a game by throwing eight consecutive treble twenties and a double ten, that's lucky

How is that luck if that's what you meant to do in the first place?

mikhail

MagicMarker wrote: »

How is that luck if that's what you meant to do in the first place?

If I were to shoot a tin can with a rifle from a mile away, it'd be a lucky shot whether I meant to do it or not. As I said, the key issue is that I can't do it at will - there's an element of chance involved.

smokingman

mikhail wrote: »

Of course there's such a thing as luck.

Don't put yourself down dude, you got the skillz!

Might be something for another thread but seeing as "luck" is quoted so much to explain how we all got here in the first place, the use of the word should definitely be discussed I think.

Is luck = randomness or is luck = randomness + a personal feeling of entitlement?

Logical Fallacy

mikhail wrote: »

If I were to shoot a tin can with a rifle from a mile away, it'd be a lucky shot whether I meant to do it or not. As I said, the key issue is that I can't do it at will - there's an element of chance involved.

It's not luck, it's probability and statistical likelihood.

It's not a like a magical force within the universe decides that you will or will not make the shot...the reality of success is all based in the physics of the situation. The charge of the round, the angle of the gun, the strength and direction of the wind, tiny imperfections on the surface of the bullet that affect it's passage through the air by tiny amounts etc.

Newaglish

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

It's not luck, it's probability and statistical likelihood.

It's not a like a magical force within the universe decides that you will or will not make the shot...the reality of success is all based in the physics of the situation. The charge of the round, the angle of the gun, the strength and direction of the wind, tiny imperfections on the surface of the bullet that affect it's passage through the air by tiny amounts etc.

Put it this way, if I'm in Vegas and I put all my money on red three times in a row, and win, that's lucky. I have good luck.

What that means is that something that is statistically unlikely has, through random chance, come up in my favour. Equally if something is statistically highly unlikely, like getting hit by lightning, that's unlucky.

There are plenty of different variables that affect the outcome of these situations, such as the force with which the roulette wheel is spun, the angle the ball falls at, temperature in the room (possibly?!) and whatnot. When all of those variables work out in such a way that it lands on red, bingo. Lucky roll! Some people (but I doubt most people here) would believe that there's an extra variable called "Luck". I wouldn't agree.

This could make an interesting thread if maybe a mod could move it?

Dades

By sheer luck, this topic has now got it's own thread!

cavedave

MagicMarker

Just wondering lads, who do atheists thank when they have a bit of luck?

I disagree with some of the people here in that I believe luck is not just a random event. Some people are more lucky in my opinion.

Be lucky - it's an easy skill to learn

I gave both lucky and unlucky people a newspaper, and asked them to look through it and tell me how many photographs were inside. On average, the unlucky people took about two minutes to count the photographs, whereas the lucky people took just seconds. Why? Because the second page of the newspaper contained the message: "Stop counting. There are 43 photographs in this newspaper." This message took up half of the page and was written in type that was more than 2in high. It was staring everyone straight in the face, but the unlucky people tended to miss it and the lucky people tended to spot it.

Some 'lucky' people seem to be more open and curious and this results in them having better experiences.

mikhail
Of course there's such a thing as luck. My success at darts is a random process biased by my (very modest) skill. If I win a game by throwing eight consecutive treble twenties and a double ten, that's lucky

Possible also some lucky people have hacks to improve their luck. For example
when playing darts i aim at the center as at least then i will hit something. So I will usually beat someone equally bad as me as my aiming process has a slightly more optimised target than theirs.


Don’t try for the triple 20
Where to aim if you are bad at darts

Dades

cavedave wrote: »

I disagree with some of the people here in that I believe luck is not just a random event. Some people are more lucky in my opinion.

Be lucky - it's an easy skill to learn

I gave both lucky and unlucky people a newspaper, and asked them to look through it and tell me how many photographs were inside. On average, the unlucky people took about two minutes to count the photographs, whereas the lucky people took just seconds. Why? Because the second page of the newspaper contained the message: "Stop counting. There are 43 photographs in this newspaper." This message took up half of the page and was written in type that was more than 2in high. It was staring everyone straight in the face, but the unlucky people tended to miss it and the lucky people tended to spot it.

Isn't that a test of observation, rather than luck?

I'm also reminded of the gorilla amongst the basketball players experiment!

cavedave

Dades i take the lesson that a lot of what people think of as luck is actually just observation. "My lucky friend is always finding money on the ground" etc

Knasher

cavedave wrote: »

I disagree with some of the people here in that I believe luck is not just a random event. Some people are more lucky in my opinion.

My crude definition of luck is the concept that you can increase the odds of a positive outcome by engaging in an action which logically couldn't have an effect on that outcome. So for example the idea that getting the hot girl next to you to blow on dice increases the chances of a favorable outcome is just wishful thinking (assuming that the outcome you are looking for is a good roll and not a good ride ).

Your example and the ones of your article are not examples of luck. (at least as I understand it)

Doctor DooM

I don't think you can realistically say what alot of people call luck hasn't had the numbers skewed by the person who's "lucky".

I play Street Fighter competitively, and I have a habit of using high risk moves at just the right time. If they're blocked, I will lose the round but in general, I tend not to miss.

I have been called lucky by plenty of people- some people say they can't believe how lucky I am- but it's an educated risk, and I spend the fight reading my opponent so strangely enough I get luckier as I go along. Of course, if someone calls me lucky I just say yes, I am. Because I don't mind that being in their head when it's their turn to play me

Sometimes it doesn't work, when someone is a better read than I, and I have to adjust my playstyle or I will die instantly.

Knasher

cavedave wrote: »

Dades i take the lesson that a lot of what people think of as luck is actually just observation. "My lucky friend is always finding money on the ground" etc

I guess the difference would be if you are using the word in the proscriptive or descriptive sense. Both you and the OP probably meant the descriptive sense seeing as he wanted to know who we thank for an event after it occurs. Your definition of luck is a bit fuzzier, because you are just aware of your own dart shortcomings (no offense, trust me I'm worse) and are just acting accordingly to maximize your chances.

In answer to the OP I don't feel the need to thank anybody because I don't believe anybody is behind events, fortuitous or otherwise.

Dades

"The harder I practice, the luckier I get."

Gary Player (or at least attributed to...)

smokingman

Is a lucky person "lucky" subjectively or objectively?

Subjectively, the classing of someone as "lucky" implies some reality bending ability of said person to change the outcomes of things happening around them, be it consciously or subconsciously. This, to me, is as bad as believing in magic and witchdoctors.

If "the universe" bestows luck on a person, then that implies not only some intelligence to said universe but also a bit of a fancy for the cut of their jib.
We arrive at the god thing then and we all know where that leads (oooh I'm not really in control of my life, it's being guided by god so I don't need to bear any personal responsibility for what I do...oooooioiobuggabugga).

So luck, as an intangible attribute, as a thing is ridiculous.

Sarky

First hand of poker I was ever dealt was four aces and a wild card. It was just as likely as any other hand. I took my 10p winnings and quit while I was ahead.

I'm sh*t at poker though. I'm bad at reading people, I'm not all that into conditional probability, so I'm extremely unlikely to ever win a game. People who know the rules, know how to read people and are familiar with the mathematics governing the odds tend to be far "luckier" in the game.

I think "lucky" people just know more about the odds involved, how to play them and other little tricks that tend to make things work out in their favour a bit more often.

It's odd that so few people remark on how lucky a casino is, given that they win almost all the time...

Logical Fallacy

Newaglish wrote: »

Put it this way, if I'm in Vegas and I put all my money on red three times in a row, and win, that's lucky. I have good luck.

What that means is that something that is statistically unlikely has, through random chance, come up in my favour. Equally if something is statistically highly unlikely, like getting hit by lightning, that's unlucky.

There are plenty of different variables that affect the outcome of these situations, such as the force with which the roulette wheel is spun, the angle the ball falls at, temperature in the room (possibly?!) and whatnot. When all of those variables work out in such a way that it lands on red, bingo. Lucky roll! Some people (but I doubt most people here) would believe that there's an extra variable called "Luck". I wouldn't agree.

This could make an interesting thread if maybe a mod could move it?

But all i need to do is replace you with anyone who makes those bets and they win. By removing you from the equation and adding me...does that mean i am lucky or does it just mean i was in the right place at the right time under the right circumstances...things which would have applied to anyone.

I'm not disputing the fact there there is a word called luck with a definition and a concept of luck with an interpretation...but they are purely derived from people's desire to explain stuff in as simplistic a form as possible.

I have been told i am "lucky". When i played assorted sports, played cards, chess, computer games, in work etc. The simple fact is that i am not lucky, i simply pay attention to things and work hard to be good at the things i like doing.

Newaglish

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

But all i need to do is replace you with anyone who makes those bets and they win. By removing you from the equation and adding me...does that mean i am lucky or does it just mean i was in the right place at the right time under the right circumstances...things which would have applied to anyone.

I'm not disputing the fact there there is a word called luck with a definition and a concept of luck with an interpretation...but they are purely derived from people's desire to explain stuff in as simplistic a form as possible.

I have been told i am "lucky". When i played assorted sports, played cards, chess, computer games, in work etc. The simple fact is that i am not lucky, i simply pay attention to things and work hard to be good at the things i like doing.

If you consistently win raffles, get good hands in poker, win at other random based events, you are lucky. That doesn't mean to say that you're innately predisposed to succeed at random chance events, it just means that historically random chance encounters have turned up in your favour.

I think it's fair to refer to someone as a lucky person based on past events, acknowledging that this person is in no way more likely to succeed than others.

People who call you "lucky", thinking that this means you are better at chess, or computer games, or whatever, because "luck" is on your side, are dense.

zico10

Long Term Louth wrote: »

Just wondering lads, who do atheists thank when they have a bit of luck?

The same person they blame when they have a bit of bad luck, nobody.

Turtwig

I don't believe in luck or anything . Stuff just happens there is neither order or disorder to it. I do however believe that one should take precautions to negate the risks of harm to themselves or others e.g wear a seatbelt. You might still die, but you are less likely to.

irishh_bob

Long Term Louth wrote: »

Just wondering lads, who do atheists thank when they have a bit of luck?

a better question might be , why dont believers blame god for bad luck

btw , the concept of luck ( good or bad ) is the sole remaining reason why i might believe in a god , a god i might add who could be evil , i see no reason to believe god is good

liamw

If you play poker or another game based on statistical probabilities you recognise luck, in practical terms, as simply short-term variance.

Generally, if the expected probabilistic outcome of an event is >=50% it isn't luck, if it's <50% it is.

irishh_bob

robindch wrote: »

The effort that made the good luck more likely?

thats dangerously close to the cliche , you make your own luck , if you made your own luck , it would,nt be luck , merley good descision making , good luck is starting a new job and finding that your boss is a star , bad luck is discovering your boss is a nightmare , you done nothing to deserve either , good luck is crashing your car and someone arriving ten minutes later rather than ten hours later , bad luck is being in the wrong place at the wrong time when a bank robbery is in progress , baschically scenarios which you had no influence over one way or another

Zombrex

irishh_bob wrote: »

thats dangerously close to the cliche , you make your own luck , if you made your own luck , it would,nt be luck , merley good descision making , good luck is starting a new job and finding that your boss is a star , bad luck is discovering your boss is a nightmare , you done nothing to deserve either , good luck is crashing your car and someone arriving ten minutes later rather than ten hours later , bad luck is being in the wrong place at the wrong time when a bank robbery is in progress , baschically scenarios which you had no influence over one way or another

All those things can be influenced by your own decision making, you take the time to find out if your boss in a job is a nightmare or not, you drive wearing your seat belt and let people know if you are going somewhere remote.

In general you will find that the people who you think are really lucky tend to be the ones who themselves take the time and make the effort to increase their chances of a good outcome.

And vice versa, consistently unlucky people tend to people who who position themselves poorly.

Dades

There are unpredictable situations that no amount of reasonable research or caution will uncover.

Just thinking about this months news, lucky is working on the 70th floor of the World Trade Center on 11/9/2001, rather than the 90th.

Luck is just a word, not a 'force'.

irishh_bob

Zombrex wrote: »

All those things can be influenced by your own decision making, you take the time to find out if your boss in a job is a nightmare or not, you drive wearing your seat belt and let people know if you are going somewhere remote.

In general you will find that the people who you think are really lucky tend to be the ones who themselves take the time and make the effort to increase their chances of a good outcome.

And vice versa, consistently unlucky people tend to people who who position themselves poorly.

when have you ever heard of anyone making enquires about a bosses personality before taking up employment ?

what if you were wearing a seat belt but got hit by a drunk driver who happened to be on the wrong side of the road

tell me something mr smug , how did those irish female doctors fail to prepare when they found themselves on that doomed flight from brazil to paris a few years ago or that guy from county monaghan who was crushed to death by a collapsed building in christchurch new zealand during the march earthquake ?

irishh_bob

Dades wrote: »

There are unpredictable situations that no amount of reasonable research or caution will uncover.

Just thinking about this months news, lucky is working on the 70th floor of the World Trade Center on 11/9/2001, rather than the 90th.

Luck is just a word, not a 'force'.

luck is most certainly a force and one which often determines peoples lives

Dades

irishh_bob wrote: »

luck is most certainly a force and one which often determines peoples lives

Luck doesn't determine anything.

It's the situation that determines whether we describe it as lucky or unlucky. It's nothing more than a conversational label.

Ickle Magoo

Why would I thank anyone for luck? If it's down to luck then surely by that very definition nobody is responsible? Or I'd pat myself on the back for being lucky, I guess...

irishh_bob

Dades wrote: »

Luck doesn't determine anything.

It's the situation that determines whether we describe it as lucky or unlucky. It's nothing more than a conversational label.

so if someone is born in famine ridden somalia as opposed to bmw ridden beverly hills , is luck still irelevant

irishh_bob

Dades wrote: »

Luck doesn't determine anything.

It's the situation that determines whether we describe it as lucky or unlucky. It's nothing more than a conversational label.

what situation you find yourself in is often down to good luck or bad luck , two people travel home from work one evening , one makes it passed a drunk driver , the next gets hit , what distinguishes either situation other than luck , i.e , the 1st driver was lucky , the second driver , unlucky

good luck = finding yourself the beneficiary of fortune without having done anything to deserve it

bad luck = the exact opposite

Ickle Magoo

irishh_bob wrote: »

so if someone is born in famine ridden somalia as opposed to bmw ridden beverly hills , is luck still irelevant

Yes - unless you believe in a soul that could have gone to either then where you live/are born is not down to luck; it's dependent on who and where the people that donated your genetic code did the wild thing...

irishh_bob

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Why would I thank anyone for luck? If it's down to luck then surely by that very definition nobody is responsible? Or I'd pat myself on the back for being lucky, I guess...

so if a young woman is murdered by a serial killer - rapists while out walking in a park , she has acted irresponsibly rather than having been unlucky

gbee

Jesus Fu***g H Christ, Allah be praised, Buddha loves me.

gbee

irishh_bob wrote: »

rather than having been unlucky

or lucky it lasted ten minutes .... tongue in cheek!

robindch

irishh_bob wrote: »

when have you ever heard of anyone making enquires about a bosses personality before taking up employment?

I have. Quite an obvious thing to do, I'd have thought.

irishh_bob wrote: »

how did those irish female doctors fail to prepare when they found themselves on that doomed flight from brazil to paris a few years ago

A former (Brazilian) employee of mine, plus her husband and three kids were supposed to be on that flight -- she called AF a few days before to request five seats next to each other, SF said not on that flight, but on the next day's, so she changed her tickets. She forgot to tell everybody here in Ireland though, so there a few people were quite worried until she turned her phone back on the day following.

It's just random, though in this case, quite freaky.

irishh_bob wrote: »

tell me something mr smug

<cough>

irishh_bob

robindch wrote: »

I have. Quite an obvious thing to do, I'd have thought.A former (Brazilian) employee of mine, plus her husband and three kids were supposed to be on that flight -- she called AF a few days before to request five seats next to each other, SF said not on that flight, but on the next day's, so she changed her tickets. She forgot to tell everybody here in Ireland though, so there a few people were quite worried until she turned her phone back on the day following.

It's just random, though in this case, quite freaky.<cough>

your ex employee was remarkabley lucky , considering the number of airlines which crash , those young irish doctors were remarkabley unlucky , random is your numbers coming up on the lottery , game of chance etc

Knasher

irishh_bob wrote: »

so if someone is born in famine ridden somalia as opposed to bmw ridden beverly hills , is luck still irelevant

I don't have a problem with describing an event as lucky, as you are using it completely in the descriptive sense, pointing out that a past event was fortuitous.

There is a difference between that and describing a person as lucky. Either you are saying that fortuitous things have happened to this person in the past more often than is normal. Which is okay as you are just making an observation. It is highly lightly to be inaccurate as you have no basis to say what is the normal occurrence of lucky events, but it isn't superstitious. It would be less ambiguous to describe the person as lucky in the past tense though, if you describe the person as being currently lucky then you are probably using the second option.

Or you could mean it in the proscriptive sense and be saying that because something good has happened to this person in the past. There is a high probability that something good will happen to this person in the future. The idea that you find a fiver so you should buy a lotto ticket because it is your lucky day.

So two very different concepts, but as you describe luck as a force am I right in assuming you are talking about the second?

robindch

irishh_bob wrote: »

random

Yes, that's about the height of it for many interactions. But not all.

Ickle Magoo

irishh_bob wrote: »

so if a young woman is murdered by a serial killer - rapists while out walking in a park , she has acted irresponsibly rather than having been unlucky

I wouldn't view being raped & murdered by a serial killer while walking in a park as merely a case of "bad luck" OR irresponsibility - any more than I'd consider getting to the end of the day alive as being very good luck. It hasn't occurred because of any superstitions and no superstitions could prevent that series of events unfolding as they did - it just is what it is: a horrific and random violent crime.

I think there's a deal of muddling between random fortuity & supernatural/superstitious determinism going on...

gbee

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I think there's a deal of muddling between random fortuity & supernatural/superstitious determinism going on...

Politics. In the discussion of the rape of women we must blame politics that allows PC correctness to give mentally ill and minority group criminals free reign.

We, in Ireland are seeing crime like we never saw it before, this is thank's to Bertie Ahern who's multicultural Ireland's dream is manifesting itself into a multicultural nightmare.

In this aspect his actions ensured certain consequences, rape, murder, knife crime escalations were guaranteed to increase in ferocity and volume. It does not undermine a certain randomness, it just assures a random victim WILL be taken.

Ickle Magoo

gbee wrote: »

Politics. In the discussion of the rape of women we must blame politics that allows PC correctness to give mentally ill and minority group criminals free reign.

I dunno if you are being serious - I'm pretty sure that ireland had violent crime prior to immigration...the odd knee-capping, priestly child rape and so on...

gbee wrote: »

We, in Ireland are seeing crime like we never saw it before, this is thank's to Bertie Ahern who's multicultural Ireland's dream is manifesting itself into a multicultural nightmare.

So it's all Bertie's fault? Not the EU, or the voters who voted to sign up to europe, or voted for him, or those that didn't campaign to get him out or fight the policies? Just Bertie?

gbee wrote: »

In this aspect his actions ensured certain consequences, rape, murder, knife crime escalations were guaranteed to increase in ferocity and volume. It does not undermine a certain randomness, it just assures a random victim WILL be taken.

Just his actions? As above, that's a bit tin-foil hattish and certainly a bit simplistic.