Boxing controversial question

cowzerp

Manny Pacqioua has shot up in weight over the last few years mainly from the age of 24-in my eyes to do this in an endurance sport and get so strong and big while staying ripped is extremely unlikely without help, HGH, Steroids etc

The weight gain is not overly strange-it's the fact he's done it in quick bursts while staying ripped and getting much stronger, this would be normal if he was a big guy who had strugggled to stay light and moved up to natural fight weight but he was a little guy at natural weight who now is not at natural weight but still stronger than his opponents.

Reason i ask is on the Boxing forum all his fans just say its normal blah blah but from my years of training boxers and myself, and fitness enthuasists, etc it does not add up-i think there deluded and just backing up there favourite fighter

d'Oracle

You watched that Mayweather press conference too?

SanoVitae

Could it be that Manny was fighting for many years at a much lighter weight than his natural weight, i.e. cutting weight, so that he's have more success in the lower weight classes?

SanoVitae

Maybe he did what Holyfield did when he went from cruiserweight to heavyweight and got big into weight training and strength work....

cowzerp

d'Oracle wrote: »

You watched that Mayweather press conference too?

Actually no but thats what got debate going-i've felt it for a couple of years-he went from been scrawny to huge in comparison, gained no body fat and kept all his speed and strenght!

d'Oracle

I dunno.
But its a valid question in view of the blood test thing.

Brian?

cowzerp wrote: »

d'Oracle wrote: »

You watched that Mayweather press conference too?

Actually no but thats what got debate going-i've felt it for a couple of years-he went from been scrawny to huge in comparison, gained no body fat and kept all his speed and strenght!

Any chance you could throw up a couple pics for a comparison?

Edit: I was always under the impression that the weight gain was gradual. He doesn't look big enough to have needed juice to me, but he might well have used it.

UUJ_Lad

Without making the tread a 'who would win' disaster.

I think that its a tactic designed by Mayweather to hold off fighting Pacquiao as long as possible, there is no way that he is going to be able to keep up the same ferocity that he fights with the longer he waits it out and he ages - Mayweather is Mayweather, he'll be able to hold his style and still be successful for best part of another 6/7 years should he even want to.

I don't buy the Pacqiao's camp arguement however that getting blood taken from him 2 weeks prefight (I think thats what the Olympic testing is) leaves him feeling 'drained' and thats why he won't do it.

To be honest, this is the only real fight that Boxing has to offer with the rise of MMA, and for it to be held up over blood testing leaves me to believe, that despite Mayweather's bravado and inability to be liked he might well have something here.

Just my opinion though.

cowzerp

briankeating wrote: »

Any chance you could throw up a couple pics for a comparison?

Edit: I was always under the impression that the weight gain was gradual. He doesn't look big enough to have needed juice to me, but he might well have used it.

Pic of young Manny and littlearticle on it

http://www.pacquiaovsmayweather.net/steroids-in-boxing-and-those-being-mentioned-or-accused-of-using-them/

in 2008 he gained 13lbs in 9 months-a lot considering he is a boxer and has to train serious cardio etc..and was not naturally big-weights below on his record with dates

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?cat=boxer&human_id=6129

dave80

Here's a link showing other boxers tat hav gained similar weight (not all them stayed lean)

http://ringtv.craveonline.com/blog/124583-manny-pacquiao-and-historys-greatest-weight-climbers

cowzerp

Most of them ended up fat and & wise gained much less than Manny-he went from 105 to 146 and still looked solid and had a low bf%

The weight gain is not amazing but how he done it and how he looked for an endurance athlete is.

john t

High possibility he does or has used some performance enhancing drug, he didnt increase weight and retain speed and power and stamina eating pancit, lechon or adobo...

Brian?

cowzerp wrote: »

Pic of young Manny and littlearticle on it

http://www.pacquiaovsmayweather.net/steroids-in-boxing-and-those-being-mentioned-or-accused-of-using-them/

in 2008 he gained 13lbs in 9 months-a lot considering he is a boxer and has to train serious cardio etc..and was not naturally big-weights below on his record with dates

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?cat=boxer&human_id=6129

I dunno horse, 13 pounds in 9 months is well within the guidlines of what a natural trainee can gain AFAIK. I reckon he could easily have gained that in 6-7 months and spent the rest of the time cutting fat, which he wouldn't have gained that much of. Given that he has nothing to do but eat and train, it's not that improbable.

This is all guesswork from me though.

Brian?

cowzerp wrote: »

The weight gain is not amazing but how he done it and how he looked for an endurance athlete is.

I would never have considered a boxer as an endurance athlete, but I suppose you're right, they are.

Brian?

john t wrote: »

High possibility he does or has used some performance enhancing drug, he didnt increase weight and retain speed and power and stamina eating pancit, lechon or adobo...

Why a high possibility?

TimeToShine

hes definitely on something alright

Frank Bullitt

In my opinion (and the results of all his previous tests) he is clean.

He has gone up in weight, but he is a professional athlete, its his job to put his body through hell to get the results he needs and wants as a fighter.

There is also the other point that we don't see him day in day out, so there is a strong possibility that while he is moving up weights he does get a bit chubby and we don't see it.

Another thing is that he didn't move up in one swoop, he has done it over years and with a gradual increase in calories and a change in weight training this can be achieved.

There are also training techniques that boxers use now to move up weight and stay quicker, this is mainly due to the advances in training that different coaches around the world discover and experiment with.

Barry Maguigan recently talked about this in the paper he writes for, stating that boxers don't do traditional cardio anymore, and opt for more explosive methods like sprints and HIIT circuits.

Hanley

Gintonious wrote: »

Barry Maguigan recently talked about this in the paper he writes for, stating that boxers don't do traditional cardio anymore, and opt for more explosive methods like sprints and HIIT circuits.

Well then that's a big, big mistake.

cowzerp

They do both, boxing training by nature is high intensity cardio anyway skipping, bag work, pads and sparring and with manny doing 3-5 hrs of this a day plus the rest, his dietician must be a genius!!

This type of results is far from the norm in boxing and that's why it's disputed how natural it is.

d'Oracle

Gintonious wrote: »

Barry Maguigan recently talked about this in the paper he writes for, stating that boxers don't do traditional cardio anymore, and opt for more explosive methods like sprints and HIIT circuits.

I remember Mike McGurn saying something similar although the championship pro boxer he coached ran anyway for psychological purposes. But the takehome is that Highly respected international sports Strength and conditioning coach Mike McGurn reckons that boxers don't need traditional cardio.

Hanley

d'Oracle wrote: »

I remember Mike McGurn saying something similar although the championship pro boxer he coached ran anyway for psychological purposes. But the takehome is that Highly respected international sports Strength and conditioning coach Mike McGurn reckons that boxers don't need traditional cardio.

...and I'd say most would disagree.

Barry.Oglesby

Ya gotta love dem booksmarts.

Anyway, is he "on"? Who knows. Yes he's gained, and many of the less common and more tailored PEDs can be either undetectable or masked for testing. The reason people get caught is because they either don't care enough about getting caught (the rewards outweigh the risk), they're on a budget, they don't really know what they're doing, or they're following bad advice.

However! Is it possible to gain that much lean mass naturally in the same period? Absolutely. Particularly if someone was a neophyte in resistance training terms, which I would warrant he was.

People are too quick to point the finger, and you have to remember that it suits Floyd Mayweather's agenda to sully his name for a variety of reasons.

Hanley

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Anyway, is he "on"? Who knows. Yes he's gained, and many of the less common and more tailored PEDs can be either undetectable or masked for testing. The reason people get caught is because they either don't care enough about getting caught (the rewards outweigh the risk), they're on a budget, they don't really know what they're doing, or they're following bad advice.

This.

Aaaaaaand...

However! Is it possible to gain that much lean mass naturally in the same period? Absolutely. Particularly if someone was a neophyte in resistance training terms, which I would warrant he was.

This.

Brian?

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Ya gotta love dem booksmarts.

Anyway, is he "on"? Who knows. Yes he's gained, and many of the less common and more tailored PEDs can be either undetectable or masked for testing. The reason people get caught is because they either don't care enough about getting caught (the rewards outweigh the risk), they're on a budget, they don't really know what they're doing, or they're following bad advice.

However! Is it possible to gain that much lean mass naturally in the same period? Absolutely. Particularly if someone was a neophyte in resistance training terms, which I would warrant he was.

People are too quick to point the finger, and you have to remember that it suits Floyd Mayweather's agenda to sully his name for a variety of reasons.

Agree completely. I reckon Floyd is just throwing the insinuation around as an excuse to duck Manny, he wants to take easier fights and retire undefeated. When he does actually retire for good, unlike his previous retirements.

Mellor

SanoVitae wrote: »

Could it be that Manny was fighting for many years at a much lighter weight than his natural weight, i.e. cutting weight, so that he's have more success in the lower weight classes?

Prob not, for his early fights he had to put weights in his shorts to make weight

cowzerp wrote: »

Actually no but thats what got debate going-i've felt it for a couple of years-he went from been scrawny to huge in comparison, gained no body fat and kept all his speed and strenght!

This is one part i've an issue with. Everyone keeps saying how he keep lean, but they are basing this on one or two fight appearances over a few months.
He could of easily made the small increases and then cut back a little.

in 2008 he gained 13lbs in 9 months-a lot considering he is a boxer and has to train serious cardio etc..and was not naturally big-weights below on his record with dates

And this is the other.
Using is fight weigh-ins as if they were his actual walk around weight is silly.
The two fights you are refering to are the Marquez fight (129) and the DeLa hoya fight. (142)

Befroe the Marquez fight he had been fighting at 130 ish for 4 years. This was his last fight at this weight, his next was 134.5, and then 142. Obviously he was cutting weight for his fights at 129, and it makes sense that be cut the most weight for the last fight. I would also imagine that he cut a lot less weight for his fight at 142.
So there is no way that this 13lb difference on he prefight scales represents a 13lb increase in muscle mass. I'm surprised that you suggested it did seeing as you would be famialr with cutting and fighting around this range.

He's gone from a 112 figher in the late 90s, to a 120 fighter in early 2000s, 130 mid 2000s, and 145 today. To be thats not unreasonable.

mushykeogh

I dont think the doping controls in boxing are too hot anyway. Varies from commission to commission, not working with WADA or their guidelines as far as i know. So no random independent testing in pro boxing.

Didnt James Toney get a 90 day ban for testing positive for stanozolol, and that was his second positive test?

So who knows with Manny, he could have been cutting like bejaysus in his earlier fights and is now at a more natural weight, or he could be paying top dollar for a good chemist!

Ben Johnson admitted his drug use, but always stated that the drug he tested positive for in Soul wasnt a drug he was taking!

Hanley

mushykeogh wrote: »

I dont think the doping controls in boxing are too hot anyway. Varies from commission to commission, not working with WADA or their guidelines as far as i know. So no random independent testing in pro boxing.

Didnt James Toney get a 90 day ban for testing positive for stanozolol, and that was his second positive test?

So who knows with Manny, he could have been cutting like bejaysus in his earlier fights and is now at a more natural weight, or he could be paying top dollar for a good chemist!

Ben Johnson admitted his drug use, but always stated that the drug he tested positive for in Soul wasnt a drug he was taking!

The whole Balco thing only came crashing down when the testers were told what THG was and how to test for it.... Chemists will always be a couple of steps ahead of the testers, and the only people getting caught are those stupid enough not to do it properly.

And that's without bringing blood doping etc into it for endurance athletes.

cowzerp

mushykeogh wrote: »

I dont think the doping controls in boxing are too hot anyway. Varies from commission to commission, not working with WADA or their guidelines as far as i know. So no random independent testing in pro boxing.

So who knows with Manny, he could have been cutting like bejaysus in his earlier fights and is now at a more natural weight, or he could be paying top dollar for a good chemist!

The doping controls in pro boxing are pathetic and anyone who bothers can beat there test's

Manny was not simply cutting! he was a scrawnball-his weight gain is clearly all muscle with the attached water obviously, did people actually look at the picture of him when he was lighter?!

For any lad to gain 40-50% of his weight is amazing, never mind a lad who does Boxing training for hours a day, people here are comparing his results to that of someone who trains purely for muscle gain and would do a very minimum amount of cardio,

From january 95-2000 he'd gained from 106-122 thats a lot of weight for a small boxer but taking into allowance that he was young and naturally could have been growing i've no problem with this, after this would be when weight gain would get quite difficult.

he stayed roughly at that weight till Nov 2003 where he moved up a division for good again 125lbs, no major issue

Below is when he started to get real big looking for a little lad, stayed lean, kept his ko power and stamina

he then did not move up again till 2005 when he moved up to 130lbs

then by 2008 he starts to move up again staying lean-135

2009 144lbs

maxing at 145.75 in 2010

It's the weight and muscle gain that he put on the 2nd half of his career that is strange, he was not young and growing, never gained any fat lb's, he's a famous politician too and always pictured

To a bodybuilder this might not sound like much but how many really small people do we know that get's into weight training and gains 10lbs ever and have done well! All that without Boxing training or staying ripped to the bone.

mushykeogh

It's the weight and muscle gain that he put on the 2nd half of his career that is strange, he was not young and growing, never gained any fat lb's, he's a famous politician too and always pictured

To a bodybuilder this might not sound like much but how many really small people do we know that get's into weight training and gains 10lbs ever and have done well! All that without Boxing training or staying ripped to the bone.

Strange and very difficult to do, yes, but also possible. How long has he trained with freddy roach? Did that coincide with the weight gain?.

Was he just a under fed and over trained with cardio boxer in his early career? Better diet and training in his later career?

An endless argument, he does look quite a beast though!

By the way im a cynical old buzzard and im always willing to blame all sporting success on the Juice!

P.S. I love this "Highly respected international sports Strength and conditioning coach".

Barry.Oglesby

TimeToShine wrote: »

hes definitely on something alright

Take a bow.

Frank Bullitt

Hanley wrote: »

Well then that's a big, big mistake.

How so?

VW 1

Gintonious wrote: »

How so?

Because the OP was looking for backup to an opinion you hold and reasons why you think that, to state that Manny is "definitely on something" or not is a stupid statement as we cannot possibly know.

g'em

VW 1 wrote: »

Because the OP was looking for backup to an opinion you hold and reasons why you think that, to state that Manny is "definitely on something" or not is a stupid statement as we cannot possibly know.

I believe that Hanley was responding to Gintonious quoting Barry McGuigan and the use/ non-use of steady state cardio as a fitness tool for boxers.

Great topic, borderline dodgy with accusations but I'll leave be for now, just a friendly Mod request to please read the posts throughly and keep the heads.

TimeToShine

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Take a bow.

didn't mean to give my inept and worthless opinion there, my bad.

Barry.Oglesby

TimeToShine wrote: »

didn't mean to give my inept and worthless opinion there, my bad.

Well at least you can admit it, but you forgot baseless, slanderous, and idiotic.

d'Oracle

mushykeogh wrote: »

P.S. I love this "Highly respected international sports Strength and conditioning coach".

You love Mike McGurn?

mushykeogh

d'Oracle wrote: »

You love Mike McGurn?

No. Just that phrase.

d'Oracle

mushykeogh wrote: »

No. Just that phrase.

Well its true.
He is highly respected.
He coaches strength and conditioning for sports.
He has been employed at an international level.

So it ticks the boxes and also illustrates the point I was making.

Barry.Oglesby

he gets a pass to talk ****e so.

d'Oracle

He has coached a Bantamweight world champion.
Which further illustrates my point.

Maybe he isn't talking ****e.
Maybe its the guys on the internet forum accusing people who have walked the walk of talking ****e who are talking ****e.

d'Oracle

My point is one respected, successful coach saying something means more than you saying the opposite.

Hanley

d'Oracle wrote: »

My point is one respected, successful coach saying something means more than you saying the opposite.

...and Barry?

...and Paul?

...and the fact what I'm saying comes directly from a UFC S&C coach?

...and that road work is still pretty prevelant in boxing?


But yah, you're right - you're point's valid cos you've one example to disprove a load of other stuff. Good show.

COH

d'Oracle wrote: »

My point is one respected, successful coach saying something means more than you saying the opposite.

He coached a number of my mates to do dangerously heavy quarter squats and call them legit lifts. He can now go and say X,Y and Z (not actual names) increased their squat by 40kgs in 4 weeks, he must be well respected if he can guarantee results like that so who am I to argue

d'Oracle

Hanley wrote: »

...and Barry?

...and Paul?

...and the fact what I'm saying comes directly from a UFC S&C coach?

...and that road work is still pretty prevelant in boxing?


But yah, you're right - you're point's valid cos you've one example to disprove a load of other stuff. Good show.

I'm not talking about their opinion.
And I have not attempted to disprove anything..
Nor have I said anything near it.

You said they are making a "big mistake" by excluding traditional cardio.
Who have YOU trained to make such a huge statement?

mushykeogh

d'Oracle wrote: »

You said they are making a "big mistake" by excluding traditional cardio.

Its physiology, which has changed very little over the last 100 odd years, only how people choose to interpretate it, often to give themselves a unique selling point over the competition.

How the body regenerates ATP during different rates and durations of energy expenditure ultimately dictates the performance potential of the neuromuscular system.

When ATP is regenerated through aerobic processes, energy homeostasis is maintained and a given power output can be sustained for long periods of time.

When anaerobic processes are used, greater acute power output is achieved but only for very short durations before fatigue occurs and power output is reduced.

Its a trade off, but the longer we can last before dipping into the anaerobic processes the better for an event lasting up to 36 mins with very short recovery.

Barry.Oglesby

d'Oracle wrote: »

He has coached a Bantamweight world champion.
Which further illustrates my point.

Maybe he isn't talking ****e.
Maybe its the guys on the internet forum accusing people who have walked the walk of talking ****e who are talking ****e.

Sometimes I'm amazed by people's lack of critical thinking.

Let me break this down, not for you, you will hear what you want to hear, but for people reading this.

Firstly, Mike McGurn did not train a bantamweight champion. Mike McGurn was a strength and conditioning coach for 2 fights to a veteran boxer.

Secondly, McGurn trained Dunne using a variety of high intensity methods, all of which I'm sure he disclosed to The Daily Star and RTE. But we're going to take him at his word and say that he never did any "traditional" cardio with Dunne.

So let's assume all that is true. In that case, Bernard Dunne did no cardio on his way to a title win. All fine so far.

But...

How long was Dunne a boxer again? About 20 years. And how much "traditional" cardio did he do in that time I wonder? I'm going to say a lot. So I think it's safe to assume that Bernard Dunne had an established aerobic foundation upon which to build his tower of power (you can all steal that one).

Couple that with the fact that boxing is of itself an aerobic activity, and I'd say it's also fair to say that during his camp Dunne got plenty of "traditional" style cardio when sparring, hitting the pads, hitting the heavy bag and so on.

Look I know I'm being sarky and you might be offended, so as a peace offering, I have some magic beans for sale on Adverts and I'll discount you by 20%.

g'em

I clearly asked for heads to remain calm in this, there is a serious lack of cop on in here now. Why did this need to get personal?

d'Oracle wind your neck in and quit it with the cheap shots and everyone else stop entertaining it. I'll review and delete stuff if needed shortly

Hanley

Barry and MushyKeogh have pretty much nailed exactly what I wanted to say there, thanks guys