Shatter rules out Las Vegas in Tipperary

Dr Galen

As reported here, it looks the huge casino development in Two-Mile Borris won't be going ahead as the cabinet decided yesterday that any proposals in the new gambling Bill will not allow for such large developments.

From theJournal.ie

In a statement, however, Shatter said the new legislation would not provide for “large resort-style casinos, such as have been proposed by some promoters”.
The laws would create provisions for more medium-sized developments, however.
“The number will be limited and every application will be subjected to vigorous checks, including deep and extensive checks on the promoters.”
“Only those promoters meeting high standards of personal and financial probity will be considered for a licence,” Shatter said.
Larger casino developments would “attract other activities that are not desirable and pose a particular risk to vulnerable people”, leading to an overall negative social impact.

From what I've read casinos will have to have less than 500 tables to even be considered. It looks like really the government don't want any casinos bigger than what we already have, which exist as private members clubs as such.

In two minds about this really. I can certainly see the benefits to a local and even national economy, but then one has to wonder will people really travel to Ireland from abroad for gambling/casino type activities. If they don't then these large scale resorts wouldn't ever take off. I'm not totally convinced on the vulnerable people argument to be honest, and I'm sure we could put stipulations on the licences to allow for supports etc. Say a contributory fund to provide support to those with an addiction.

Fr Tod Umptious

Dr Galen wrote: »

As reported here, it looks the huge casino development in Two-Mile Borris won't be going ahead as the cabinet decided yesterday that any proposals in the new gambling Bill will not allow for such large developments.

From theJournal.ie



From what I've read casinos will have to have less than 500 tables to even be considered. It looks like really the government don't want any casinos bigger than what we already have, which exist as private members clubs as such.

In two minds about this really. I can certainly see the benefits to a local and even national economy, but then one has to wonder will people really travel to Ireland from abroad for gambling/casino type activities. If they don't then these large scale resorts wouldn't ever take off. I'm not totally convinced on the vulnerable people argument to be honest, and I'm sure we could put stipulations on the licences to allow for supports etc. Say a contributory fund to provide support to those with an addiction.

I have only been to a big casino once and that was Mohegan Sun in Connecticut.

The place shocked me, all the poor people tossing their welfare cheques, their disability cheques into slot machines, dragging their kids there at all hours of the day and night cos they just can't stop gambling, so I am actually convinced on the vunerable people argument.

On the actual Two-mile-Borris development, it would be totally unsustainable, who is going to go there on a wet Thursday night in November, apart from the ones mentioned above of course

Riskymove

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

The place shocked me, all the poor people tossing their welfare cheques, their disability cheques into slot machines, dragging their kids there at all hours of the day and night cos they just can't stop gambling, so I am actually convinced on the vunerable people argument.

how different is that to bookies, online gambling etc thats so common in Ireland?

Mr.Micro

TBH I am happy that such a venture will not go ahead. We are down on our luck but we do not need a Vegas trash type den of iniquity built in Ireland to lower the tone completely. With the smirk Lousy behind it is even more pleasing that it has been stopped.

Fr Tod Umptious

Riskymove wrote: »

how different is that to bookies, online gambling etc thats so common in Ireland?

I have no idea and I don't care either.

Maybe it gives people with a problem more of a opportunity to feed their addiction, it's much easier to put money in a slot machine that it is to figure out which horse to pick in the 3.15 at Ballinrobe.

It's just that the place really opened my eyes about these mega casinos, the amount of lower income people there, the amputees, the kids balling their eyes out a 1am cos they were wrecked and had been there all day was truly depressing.

In a place like that you really don't have to scratch too far below the glitzy surface to see the real world.

Dr Galen

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I have only been to a big casino once and that was Mohegan Sun in Connecticut.

The place shocked me, all the poor people tossing their welfare cheques, their disability cheques into slot machines, dragging their kids there at all hours of the day and night cos they just can't stop gambling, so I am actually convinced on the vunerable people argument.

On the actual Two-mile-Borris development, it would be totally unsustainable, who is going to go there on a wet Thursday night in November, apart from the ones mentioned above of course

I've been to the Mohegan Sun as well. Not the classiest place I've ever been to in the world, but not near the worst either. How long were you there for? Also, where did you see the kids? The rules about kids being in the casino are usually pretty strict. Was it just about the resort itself?

Mr.Micro wrote: »

TBH I am happy that such a venture will not go ahead. We are down on our luck but we do not need a Vegas trash type den of iniquity built in Ireland to lower the tone completely. With the smirk Lousy behind it is even more pleasing that it has been stopped.

Have you been to Las Vegas?

Mr.Micro

Dr Galen wrote: »

I've been to the Mohegan Sun as well. Not the classiest place I've ever been to in the world, but not near the worst either. How long were you there for? Also, where did you see the kids? The rules about kids being in the casino are usually pretty strict. Was it just about the resort itself?




Have you been to Las Vegas?

Sure have, boy. Not sure what your question suggests.....?

Fr Tod Umptious

Dr Galen wrote: »

I've been to the Mohegan Sun as well. Not the classiest place I've ever been to in the world, but not near the worst either. How long were you there for? Also, where did you see the kids? The rules about kids being in the casino are usually pretty strict. Was it just about the resort itself?

It was about 10 years ago but I do recall kids being in the foyer area of the place.

I also know a member of the local judiciary in the area that includes Mohegan Sun and Foxwoods and they are none too happy about what has happened to the area since the casino's opened.

Mr.Micro

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

It was about 10 years ago but I do recall kids being in the foyer area of the place.

I also know a member of the local judiciary in the area that includes Mohegan Sun and Foxwoods and they are none too happy about what has happened to the area since the casino's opened.

An awful lot of bad comes with casinos. I think the only upside on the whole is the owners. Employment yes for many but on the whole all the baggage that comes with it makes it IMO depressing.

Dr Galen

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Sure have, boy. Not sure what your question suggests.....?

Nothing at all. An honest question MrM.

I'm just back from there. I have no doubt that under the trashy wonderfulness of huge dancing fountains, volcanoes and Donny Osmond, there is a pretty nasty underbelly. In fact, when tripping around, you just have to look at the how isolated the strip is from pretty much anything else around. Lots and lots of vacant lots, and poor housing in the area.

Head a little farther out into Henderson though, and it's a very different picture.

Mr.Micro

Dr Galen wrote: »

Nothing at all. An honest question MrM.

I'm just back from there. I have no doubt that under the trashy wonderfulness of huge dancing fountains, volcanoes and Donny Osmond, there is a pretty nasty underbelly. In fact, when tripping around, you just have to look at the how isolated the strip is from pretty much anything else around. Lots and lots of vacant lots, and poor housing in the area.

Head a little farther out into Henderson though, and it's a very different picture.

Yes indeed, its the underbelly behind all the glitz and glamour. Unfortunately in the US gambling has always been linked with the mob, money laundering and all the other nefarious activities. One of my fears here in Ireland was that such a casino would generate that underbelly and a negative change in perspective, and being such a small country perhaps we would feel it more.

GSF

At least you can still get a job working for the banks if you have a liking for high stakes gambling.

Dr Galen

It's probably a bit of an unfair comparison, Vegas/US to Ireland. Vegas was more or less built by the mob, mostly the same for Atlantic City as well. The Indian run casinos are pretty unique in a lot of ways. I've only been to two of them, those mentioned above.

Maybe a fairer comparison would be casinos in Europe or even in Asia ( Macao etc) and the things that accompany those types of places.

MadsL

Unfortunately in the US gambling has always been linked with the mob, money laundering and all the other nefarious activities

You've been watching too much Casino. :rolleyes:

Harrah's, MGM, Hyatt, Marriott and other publically quoted corperations like WYNN , Boyd Gaming and Las Vegas Sands wouldn't be impressed being accused of mob and money laundering activities.

Dr Galen

I took it to mean the behind the scenes type of stuff as opposed to the actual running of the casinos, i.e. the activities that go on in areas around casinos

Maybe MrM would clarify

steelcityblues

No Viva Las Borris, then?

thebman

I'm sure the 500 table limit can be bumped up a bit with a few political donations. Maybe FG are just annoyed other parties got the donations and they have been left out so far.

Mr.Micro

MadsL wrote: »

You've been watching too much Casino. :rolleyes:

Harrah's, MGM, Hyatt, Marriott and other publically quoted corperations like WYNN , Boyd Gaming and Las Vegas Sands wouldn't be impressed being accused of mob and money laundering activities.

My mistake, of course not all Casinos. Historically speaking it was the mob who had to find a way to launder its money from its rackets way back including illegal gambling and part of the reasons why Las Vegas exists today. Below is a link to a bit of info re the Las Vegas mob. I am sure all Casinos are mob free now.:rolleyes:

http://onlinenevada.org/las_vegas_mob

MadsL

thebman wrote: »

I'm sure the 500 table limit can be bumped up a bit with a few political donations. Maybe FG are just annoyed other parties got the donations and they have been left out so far.

Most Dublin casinos struggle to keep 4 to 6 tables open; 500 is just pie in the sky nonsense. I'll publically [insert humiliating action] if Ireland ever supports a 500 table casino. The Crown in Melbourne has a 500 table licence and serves a city with a population the size of Ireland.

MOSSAD

Great news! To hell with the gombeen men.

View

Does this mean we have gotten over "Ireland is not Greece" and are now onto "Tipperary is not Nevada" instead?

scholar007

Inda is not Bertie - Bertie would have said, right lads yous can build da auld casino but it has ta have a stadium attached so's I can watch da Dubs playin da culchies and Man U can come over as well- And da Bertie Bowl would have been built - Somehow da Inda Bowl doesn't quite have the same ring to it.

Spread

And there was Billy Maher's cousin's friend, thinking he could turn his outhouses into a kind of Chicken Ranch in Holycross.

dRNk SAnTA

Thank god, I say.

Only big casino I've been to was Crown in Melbourne which I lived beside. The place is depressing, it has a thin layer of glamour but spend 5 minutes there and it opens your eyes to exactly what type of person is in there. The amount of money people throw away is shocking. It's not high rollers flying in for the weekend that these places make money off, it's the absolute suckers who sit all day pushing buttons on a flashing poker machine. I am positive those things are addictive.

Victor

Dr Galen wrote: »

From what I've read casinos will have to have less than 500 tables to even be considered.

Surely that is still quite large?

GSF

This is a very strange project. The only spokesperson talking on radio seems to be Austin Stack who seems incapable of discussion the business model of this project. All he does is go off on some general rant about emigration and says the casino is a very small part of the project.

If the casino is such a small part of the project, why dont they just go ahead without the casino?

murrayp4

For some reason when I thought of this project, Back to the Future Part II- where Hill Valley has been turned into a sleazy casino town by the wealthy Biff Tannen always sprung to mind.

I'm glad it's been torpedoed.

Permabear

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dRNk SAnTA

Permabear wrote: »

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Rubbish

I'm talking about vulnerable people who are pouring what little money they have down a sinkhole. Where is the benefit from this? 100 minimum wage jobs and a massive transfer of wealth from the poorest in society to a single group of investors lucky enough to hold a license.

Large casinos are largely financed by their slot machines rather than their gaming tables. Tipperary Venue developers said that themselves. They were not only looking for changes to the gambling laws to allow the establishment of large casinos, but also a total relaxation of the laws governing fixed odds betting terminals.

If you want to have a gamble on roulette or poker table, go down to the nearest members club. I don't have any issue with that. My post specifically mentioned Poker Machines.

Permabear wrote:

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Apart from that not being my argument, you do already live in a society that practices liberal paternalism. Cigarettes are taxed, carbon is taxed, and one day soon pensions and health insurance will be mandatory for everyone. You don't actually live in a fully liberal society.

abbey2000

GSF wrote: »

This is a very strange project. The only spokesperson talking on radio seems to be Austin Stack who seems incapable of discussion the business model of this project. All he does is go off on some general rant about emigration and says the casino is a very small part of the project.
If the casino is such a small part of the project, why dont they just go ahead without the casino?

i think he was matt cooper yesterday evening, he came across as a tool in my opinion. he is all up for the jobs, and who wouldnt want 1,000 jobs in there area? but they had a casino guy on from dublin, he said they had 8 tables and most nights only use 6 to 7 of them. he thinks it would be closed in 6 months if it ever opened at all.

apparently the proposed casino was going to be around the size and a half of a football pitch? realistically, how would they fill that? the casino guy reckoned you would need at least 25,000 people a week going through the place! i really could not see that happening.

the other issue is funding...from what i understand, the people involved in this are not saying where the money is coming from. if it comes from the banks (our banks) then the state is at risk if the venture fails, which I realistically think it would.

Dr Galen

Victor wrote: »

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God yeah. They were actually looking to put 2000 into the place in Tipp. I can only think that this was a combination of your standard table games, e.g. poker, blackjack, roulette and slot machine type things and they are all getting lumped together.

500 would still be very big IMO, but on further reading it looks like this is far above what the government are going to be allowing.

Permabear wrote: »

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I would tend to agree tbh. If someone invests this much cash, and doesn't do the research to back up their investment, then thats their lookout.

It's really quite simple -- if you don't like "the type of person" who goes to casinos, then don't go to casinos. However, the "I don't like it, so I want to ban anyone else from doing it" line of argument shouldn't hold a lot of water in a liberal society.

Gambling can certainly be addictive, but when you can't throw a stone in your average Irish town without hitting a bookmaker's shop, and when the Irish government actually runs its own gambling enterprise in the National Lottery (€780 million in annual sales), it's a bit silly to outlaw casinos.

I live in a small village just on the outskirts of Dublin. We have two bookies. One is pretty big actually. They are generally both pretty busy, with people of all ages and social backgrounds. If people think that liberalising the laws around casinos are going to lead to an explosion in gambling among the people of Ireland, they've obviously been missing a trick over the years.

Joey the lips

To me this was michael lowrys build it and they will come version of the bertie bowl. The man is dillusional and in serious need of a good slap of reality. no doubt the banking money used to bankroll this will ultimatly come from banks we supported then in a couple of years when all the apartments etc or the rooms etc dont fill the resort will go into nama.

Michael lowry needs to cop seriously. I am beginning to question his voters.

thebman

Permabear wrote: »

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Well we aren't a liberal society last I checked. We were even talking about introducing dress codes for the Dail recently.

We have planning laws for a reason though. If this is just going to become another ghost development in a few years because it is unsustainable for our population then no point in letting it go ahead.

Dr Galen

in fairness bman, it did go through the planning process successfully. That may not say much judging on past record, but it's what we have got in terms of a system.

mikemac

Yes, it did go through the planning process.

And the talk in Tipperary was jobs, jobs, jobs

The big road projects are finished and the subbies are desperate for work

And a councillor who would come out to block or oppose this would be committing career suicide.
So unsurprisingly, it was approved.

It'd be the same in most any rural county, nothing strange here

Lowry is the master, sit back and watch this get spun as Alan Shatter from Dublin South not having a clue or caring what happens outside Co Dublin.
Nothing but politics and playing to the crowd. It'll work too

Pete_Cavan

Permabear wrote: »

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You only have to look around at all the ghost estates, vacant offices and commercial space and empty hotels to see that the FF "let people attempt such ventures, and if they fail, they fail" approach has got us - obviously it is not a good place.

MadsL

Dr Galen wrote: »

in fairness bman, it did go through the planning process successfully. That may not say much judging on past record, but it's what we have got in terms of a system.

The board refused permission for a 15,000-seat music venue at the site.

There are many that felt this was just a stalking horse so that "Dr Quirkey" could convert to a mega-casino on O'Connell street.

thebman

Dr Galen wrote: »

in fairness bman, it did go through the planning process successfully. That may not say much judging on past record, but it's what we have got in terms of a system.

It certainly isn't a good system, it is really what we should be reforming.

Instead we have national politicians trying to introduce legislation for the state to stop a development in Tipperary.

If FG want to fix politics, they should fix it (it was pretty much what they were promising coming into the election was the start of trying to fix the political system and so far nothing done).

rasper

better off without , yes we so need jobs but I don't believe at any cost, in the long run I'd say there would be more negative points than positive , so as a society I think it was a good choice.
Not to mention of the circumstances that Lowry got the "go-ahead" when the country was been sold out, anything that was bought with blood money could not have been for the common good. Not a FG/LAB supporter but welcome the decision

Dr Galen

MadsL wrote: »

The board refused permission for a 15,000-seat music venue at the site.

There are many that felt this was just a stalking horse so that "Dr Quirkey" could convert to a mega-casino on O'Connell street.

Had a similar conversation with some people only a few weeks ago, and the O'Connell St premises came up. Several thought much the same tbh, once one got the go ahead, then it would only be a matter of time for that to happen.

Permabear

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vellocet

Permabear wrote: »

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Where is that line though? Can my venture be selling heroin, being a hitman, processing nuclear waste in my garden shed?

We have casino's. The problem here was the sheer scale of the project

Fr Tod Umptious

Permabear wrote: »

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Not necessarily, as I said before IMO it's much easier for a person with an addiction to feed that addiction by sitting all day and all night at a flashing slot machine in a big casino than at the local bookies trying to figure out the next winner at the Hackney dog track.

MadsL

IMO it's much easier for a person with an addiction to feed that addiction by sitting all day and all night at a flashing slot machine in a big casino than at the local bookies trying to figure out the next winner at the Hackney dog track.

That's like legalising alcohol and banning drugs, oh wait...

Permabear

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nice_guy80

would they not be better off aiming a casino at the people on those luxury liners/cruise ferries that dock in Dublin and Cobh??

Or marketing Shannon airport as the stopover with casinos??

vellocet

Permabear wrote: »

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The parallel is that there are planning laws. Just because something is profitable is grounds in itself to allow it to happen.

Permabear wrote: »

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I have no moral objections to a casino. I just don't think this project was viable or appropriate. The largest hotel in Europe in Two-Mile-Borriss? Seriously? How would people get to the arse end of Tipp? The whole scheme was for the birds.

Mr.Micro

vellocet wrote: »

The parallel is that there are planning laws. Just because something is profitable is grounds in itself to allow it to happen.



I have no moral objections to a casino. I just don't think this project was viable or appropriate. The largest hotel in Europe in Two-Mile-Borriss? Seriously? How would people get to the arse end of Tipp? The whole scheme was for the birds.

I agree, a completely disproportionate venture in the context of our small country. I am sure that a similar but proportional casino can still go ahead, but perhaps it will not be enough for the backers. Mention jobs and some people think they can do what they like.

Permabear

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Fr Tod Umptious

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I have only been to a big casino once and that was Mohegan Sun in Connecticut.

The place shocked me, all the poor people tossing their welfare cheques, their disability cheques into slot machines, dragging their kids there at all hours of the day and night cos they just can't stop gambling, so I am actually convinced on the vunerable people argument.

They could easily go spend it on drink or bookies or whatever, we dont need a giant casino for that

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

You only have to look around at all the ghost estates, vacant offices and commercial space and empty hotels to see that the FF "let people attempt such ventures, and if they fail, they fail" approach has got us - obviously it is not a good place.

I'm amazed to see such a post as it's clearly not the approach that's been taken. More like "if they fail, we'll bail them out".

Pete_Cavan

Permabear wrote: »

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Spending close to half a billion euro and taking c.110 hectares of prime agricultural land and c.220 hectares of commercial forestry, in an archaeologically sensitive area and diverting or culverting parts of the Derheen and Clover Rivers to create;

1. A 500 bedroom 5-star hotel when we already have on oversupply of 15000 hotel rooms with 34 hotels having been taken over by NAMA
2. A golf course when we already have about 450 with 29 either in receivership, being run by banks or in NAMA. The region is already well catered for with nearby courses in Thurles, Clonmel, Dundrum, Cashel and Kilkenny
3. A horse track and greyhound track despite the fact that there are 26 existing racecourses in Ireland representing the highest per capita ratio of racecourse numbers to population in the world. Similar figures apply to greyhound racing courses.
4. 20 retail units ignoring the huge vacancy rates around the country

This is not appropriate. That of course is just my opinion.

Permabear wrote: »

Maybe so, but the viability of private developments should not be for the government to determine.

The government is not determining the viability of the development. An Bord Pleanála granted planning permission for the development (against the recommendation of their own inspector) and that decision still stands. The government is merely introducing new legislation to regulate casinos because the existing legislation is outdated. The new legislation will limit the limit the number of tables/slot machines permitted in any casino in this country. Whether this particular development is viable under the new legislation is for the promoters (or more importantly, their financiers) to determine.