This winter...

CrystalLettuce

Is anyone else worried for how some of these cuts will affect people this winter?

Lately, there's been an increase in the price of gas coupled with a reduction in the fuel allowance.

Hundreds of pensioners die each year from being unable to adequately heat their homes. A lot of this is to do with poor insulation, but that's not something that's easy to fix.

If we have another bad winter(the sun is still at a solar minimum, so likely), it could be really devastating.

I heard there was meant to be some scheme to help people to pay for heating if they really need it, but I haven't heard anything of it? I'd be worried about how effective this is.

ei.sdraob

CrystalLettuce wrote: »

Is anyone else worried for how some of these cuts will affect people this winter?

Lately, there's been an increase in the price of gas coupled with a reduction in the fuel allowance.

Hundreds of pensioners die each year from being unable to adequately heat their homes. A lot of this is to do with poor insulation, but that's not something that's easy to fix.

If we have another bad winter(the sun is still at a solar minimum, so likely), it could be really devastating.

I heard there was meant to be some scheme to help people to pay for heating if they really need it, but I haven't heard anything of it? I'd be worried about how effective this is.

Pensioners are one group that are doing quite well in this recession btw

djpbarry

CrystalLettuce wrote: »

Hundreds of pensioners die each year from being unable to adequately heat their homes.

Really? I'd be genuinely surprised if this were true?

murphaph

djpbarry wrote: »

Really? I'd be genuinely surprised if this were true?

Me too. I would accept figures of a few dozen at face value but the OP is claiming "hundreds" of dead pensioners due to an inability to keep themselves warm. I think I'd need to see some stats on this.

As mentioned already, pensioners have seen no cuts to their basic payments, whilst blind people hav faced cuts in theirs, simply because they form a smaller voting bloc.

Crazy Horse 6

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Pensioners are one group that are doing quite well in this recession btw

You think do you.

murphaph

Crazy Horse 6 wrote: »

You think do you.

What cuts have pensioners seen thusfar exactly?

spank_inferno

Crazy Horse 6 wrote: »

You think do you.

Feel free to list the social welfare restrictions implemented against pensioners to date.

** Edit ** Sorry, I didnt want to seem like an ass.
Obviously it can be an issue for the elderly.

Many former council houses are "back boiler", including my gaff.

I'm ok lugging around bags of coal or wood.... but I imagine its tough when your old.

It matters little if the coal is free if you havent the strength to bring in several buckets of the stuff every day

paul71

murphaph wrote: »

Me too. I would accept figures of a few dozen at face value but the OP is claiming "hundreds" of dead pensioners due to an inability to keep themselves warm. I think I'd need to see some stats on this.

As mentioned already, pensioners have seen no cuts to their basic payments, whilst blind people hav faced cuts in theirs, simply because they form a smaller voting bloc.

I would have difficulty in excepting a figure of 1 or 2, it would be all over the news if an OAP died of the cold and the only thing similar that I recall was an instance of a younger woman dieing in her appartment last year, where a guard entering the appartment said it was freezing.

Welease

spank_inferno wrote: »

Feel free to list the social welfare restrictions implemented against pensioners to date.

I thought gas, electrical and smokeless fuel allowances for pensioners were cut ....

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0910/1224303851598.html

MagicMarker

I heard about a week ago that no one will be cut off this winter for not paying their bills? I can't remember where I heard it tbh.

headmaster

I'm another person who thinks pensioners are doing really well, they're brilliant at pulling the wool over our eyes when they feel like it. I also think that they would be very wise to keep quiet, in fact, very quiet in these times. If the ordinary working person gets to hear "exactly" what pensioners get into their pockets every week, including "all the extras", I think people would very quickly turn against them. If I was an old age pensioner, i'd be inclined to leave well enough alone and count my blessings. If cuts do come their way, they should just accept them in the same manner as everybody else in this country at the moment. We have all heard enough of the ," I agree there should be cuts, but not at the expense of"..la la la la la. Time now for the lot of us to shut up and take whatever pain is coming our way, everyone one of us. We've heard all the excuses at this stage.

RichardAnd

headmaster wrote: »

I think people would very quickly turn against them.

One of the biggest problems with the Irish is that they seem to fixate on what everyone has. During the boom, this meant coveting a neighbor's shiny stuffy, in the bust it seems to be a burning desire to see them become poorer. This is one of the many things we must leave behind if ever we want to become a mature society.

Doinker

MagicMarker wrote: »

I heard about a week ago that no one will be cut off this winter for not paying their bills? I can't remember where I heard it tbh.

As long as they (people in arrears) sign up to a payment plan or have a pay as you go meter installed.

Godge

CrystalLettuce wrote: »

Hundreds of pensioners die each year from being unable to adequately heat their homes. A lot of this is to do with poor insulation, but that's not something that's easy to fix.

.

I am sure hundreds of pensioners die each year but is it really from being unable to adequately heat their homes? Can you provide some evidence or figures or is this a special pleading exercise?

Bannasidhe

Godge wrote: »

I am sure hundreds of pensioners die each year but is it really from being unable to adequately heat their homes? Can you provide some evidence or figures or is this a special pleading exercise?

Well in NI which does not have the same level of support for pensioners in cold weather over 500 deaths were linked to hypothermia in cold spell of 2008/9 (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/cold-kills-over-500-pensioners-a-year-in-northern-ireland-committee-told-14152484.html).

longhalloween

MagicMarker wrote: »

I heard about a week ago that no one will be cut off this winter for not paying their bills? I can't remember where I heard it tbh.

Some TD said it on the radio...

ZYX

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Well in NI which does not have the same level of support for pensioners in cold weather over 500 deaths were linked to hypothermia in cold spell of 2008/9 (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/cold-kills-over-500-pensioners-a-year-in-northern-ireland-committee-told-14152484.html).

The figure is more like 500 for the entire UK.
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/hsq/health-statistics-quarterly/no--2--summer-1999/deaths-from-hypothermia-in-england-and-wales.pdf

irishh_bob

CrystalLettuce wrote: »

Is anyone else worried for how some of these cuts will affect people this winter?

Lately, there's been an increase in the price of gas coupled with a reduction in the fuel allowance.

Hundreds of pensioners die each year from being unable to adequately heat their homes. A lot of this is to do with poor insulation, but that's not something that's easy to fix.

If we have another bad winter(the sun is still at a solar minimum, so likely), it could be really devastating.

I heard there was meant to be some scheme to help people to pay for heating if they really need it, but I haven't heard anything of it? I'd be worried about how effective this is.

so you want to increase the old age pension ? , btw , im not saying i dont believe ( some ) pensioners die from cold , i dont however believe its anything to do with thier rate of pension

irishh_bob

headmaster wrote: »

I'm another person who thinks pensioners are doing really well, they're brilliant at pulling the wool over our eyes when they feel like it. I also think that they would be very wise to keep quiet, in fact, very quiet in these times. If the ordinary working person gets to hear "exactly" what pensioners get into their pockets every week, including "all the extras", I think people would very quickly turn against them. If I was an old age pensioner, i'd be inclined to leave well enough alone and count my blessings. If cuts do come their way, they should just accept them in the same manner as everybody else in this country at the moment. We have all heard enough of the ," I agree there should be cuts, but not at the expense of"..la la la la la. Time now for the lot of us to shut up and take whatever pain is coming our way, everyone one of us. We've heard all the excuses at this stage.

pensioners dont need to pull the wool over anyones eyes , us irish are a sentimental bunch who for the most part , buy into the idea that old = peniless

politicans dont just avoid touching the pension because they fear losing the grey vote , they know that the vast majority of people across the board are opposed to any kind of cuts to pensioners , hell will freeze over before the pension is touched by this goverment in the coming years

dev100

spank_inferno wrote: »

Feel free to list the social welfare restrictions implemented against pensioners to date.

** Edit ** Sorry, I didnt want to seem like an ass.
Obviously it can be an issue for the elderly.

Many former council houses are "back boiler", including my gaff.

I'm ok lugging around bags of coal or wood.... but I imagine its tough when your old.

It matters little if the coal is free if you havent the strength to bring in several buckets of the stuff every day

In my local area the council put in oil burners into the local authority houses a certain group and they werent pensioners either and they gave out stink they didnt want oil central heating wanted to keep their back boilers:)

Ya cant win !!!

murphaph

RichardAnd wrote: »

One of the biggest problems with the Irish is that they seem to fixate on what everyone has. During the boom, this meant coveting a neighbor's shiny stuffy, in the bust it seems to be a burning desire to see them become poorer. This is one of the many things we must leave behind if ever we want to become a mature society.

I don't give a fiddler's fcuk what a person has earned through their own graft. I am delighted that my boss is getting richer as our company gets stronger and expands-I have a measure of job security that I wouldn't have if it was going the other way. I DO care about what my taxes are spent on and this INCLUDES state pensions.

Why do I care? Because I want Ireland to run a balanced budget and not be racking up debt for my kids to pay off. I don't begrudge the pensioners a penny, we just can't afford their current rates.

If the burden was shared equally by all citizens (low earners coming into tax net, sw recipients including pensioners receiving reduced payments, public sector receiving reduced wages, everyone else paying a bit more tax) then the burden on individuals could genuinely be minimised. Excluding certain groups from cuts means other groups have to be affected more than necessary.

I really hate the lame old "begrudger" line that people trot out when expenditure is questioned.

Welease

murphaph wrote: »

I really hate the lame old "begrudger" line that people trot out when expenditure is questioned.

The "begrudger" line has to be used due to the absence of an intelligent counter arguement.

RichardAnd

Welease wrote: »

The "begrudger" line has to be used due to the absence of an intelligent counter arguement.

There is being intelligently critical and there is begrudging for the heck of it. Most of what goes on in here is of the latter.

Now, I never used the word begrudger in my post, I was simply making the point that people should look to their own lives more and to those of their fellows less. The world is a happier place when one stops nitpicking over the vicissitudes of their countrymen.

Welease

RichardAnd wrote: »

There is being intelligently critical and there is begrudging for the heck of it. Most of what goes on in here is of the latter.

Now, I never used the word begrudger in my post, I was simply making the point that people should look to their own lives more and to those of their fellows less. The world is a happier place when one stops nitpicking over the vicissitudes of their countrymen.

Is one to assume then that your previous 1,800 plus posts are about yourself? or have you yourself "nitpicked over the viccissitudes of their countrymen"? /yawn

It is important that everyone questions the governance and spending within this country (using the available facts!).. If that had been done in the previous decade we would not be in the position we currently find ourselves in...

Many of us didnt get ourselves into colossal debt.. Many of us worked hard to earn the life we have.. and continue to pay a large amount of tax to sustain the waste in this country.. In a democratic society I and others have every right to discuss where our taxes get used.

cyberhog

djpbarry wrote: »

Really? I'd be genuinely surprised if this were true?

I don't know how you could be surprised about older people dying from the cold. Have you been abroad the last few winters?

Government urged to reverse fuel cuts for vulnerable older people this winter
Fri, 16/09/2011 - 07:26


Age Action has urged the Minister for Social Protection Joan Burton to reverse cuts to the Household Benefits Package as a matter of urgency in order to avert further suffering and increased fatalities among older people this winter.

Speaking at the Department of Social Protection’s Pre-Budget Forum in Dublin this morning, Age Action’s Head of Advocacy and Communications Eamon Timmins warned that the last available data showed that there were up to 2,000 excess winter deaths in Ireland each year. Many of these are older people dying from cold-related illnesses such as pneumonia, heart attack and stroke.


“Unless the Government intervenes as a matter of urgency the plight of the most vulnerable older people who struggle to heat their homes will worsen,” Mr Timmins said.

http://www.ageaction.ie/government-urged-reverse-fuel-cuts-vulnerable-older-people-winter

murphaph

cyberhog wrote: »

http://www.ageaction.ie/government-urged-reverse-fuel-cuts-vulnerable-older-people-winter

That's biased. It's from Age Action. They will never ever say "old people get enough". Show me independent studies and I will listen! He says heart attacks and strokes are cold related but they are also related to loads of other things and can happen year round.

RichardAnd

Welease wrote: »

Is one to assume then that your previous 1,800 plus posts are about yourself? or have you yourself "nitpicked over the viccissitudes of their countrymen"? /yawn

It is important that everyone questions the governance and spending within this country (using the available facts!).. If that had been done in the previous decade we would not be in the position we currently find ourselves in...

Many of us didnt get ourselves into colossal debt.. Many of us worked hard to earn the life we have.. and continue to pay a large amount of tax to sustain the waste in this country.. In a democratic society I and others have every right to discuss where our taxes get used.

You have every right to discuss where taxes are spent, naturally. That, however was not the point I was making and in future, I would appreciate if you did not voice your disagreement in such a derisive manner. /yawn indeed.

My point was that constantly looking at the faults and boons of others is not a very happy way to live. I read and analyse the news from a variety of sources on a daily basis but always, my primary goal (but not my only goal) is not what others do but how I personally behave by the world. Who am I really to dismiss another's wage as excessive or their welfare payment as spurious. I don't pretend that we do not have a serious problem with money in this country but I, unlike many others here, do not pretend or believe that I have all of the solutions.

murphaph

RichardAnd wrote: »

You have every right to discuss where taxes are spent, naturally. That, however was not the point I was making and in future, I would appreciate if you did not voice your disagreement in such a derisive manner. /yawn indeed.

My point was that constantly looking at the faults and boons of others is not a very happy way to live. I read and analyse the news from a variety of sources on a daily basis but always, my primary goal (but not my only goal) is not what others do but how I personally behave by the world. Who am I really to dismiss another's wage as excessive or their welfare payment as spurious. I don't pretend that we do not have a serious problem with money in this country but I, unlike many others here, do not pretend or believe that I have all of the solutions.

I don't think anyone here has all the answers. From my perspective I just expect that all members of society should be a part of the solution and that includes pensioners.

Welease

RichardAnd wrote: »

You have every right to discuss where taxes are spent, naturally. That, however was not the point I was making and in future, I would appreciate if you did not voice your disagreement in such a derisive manner. /yawn indeed..

The point you were making and continue to make is irrelevant to the discussion on an economics forum.. I am more than willing to stop /yawning when you discuss the topic of the thread, and not what your primary goals in life are..

The topic was valid, the responses from both sides of the spectrum were valid opinions..

RichardAnd wrote: »

My point was that constantly looking at the faults and boons of others is not a very happy way to live. I read and analyse the news from a variety of sources on a daily basis but always, my primary goal (but not my only goal) is not what others do but how I personally behave by the world. Who am I really to dismiss another's wage as excessive or their welfare payment as spurious. I don't pretend that we do not have a serious problem with money in this country but I, unlike many others here, do not pretend or believe that I have all of the solutions.

If you don't want to engage in a debate on wages or welfare payments, then why bother posting on a economics forum in a thread about pension payments and basic requirements for the elderly over winter?

Who here has said they have all of the answers? Many are discussing the problem, which you attempt to reduce to "dismiss another's wages as excessive" and a "burning desires to see them poorer" , "nitpicking" and labelling us as an immature society..

If you have a problem with people debating a topic, then I politely suggest you don't read the threads...

irishh_bob

cyberhog wrote: »

I don't know how you could be surprised about older people dying from the cold. Have you been abroad the last few winters?



http://www.ageaction.ie/government-urged-reverse-fuel-cuts-vulnerable-older-people-winter

age action are a QUANGO who represten a particular interest group, if pensioners were recieving two grand per week , theese people would still be calling for more , they earn thier living from being the elderlys poor mouth

Welease

The problem lies in the aggregation of any sector of socieity into a bucket and attempting to discern their needs based on a single arbitrary scale such as age..

There are many pensioners who will likely go hungry and cold this winter, and there as many pensioners who will continue to live very happy fulfilling retirements. The age profile of the person is not as important as the financial profile of that retired person..

The problem is the one size fits all method of pension (and other welfare payments in this country) payments, which make no attempt to lower costs through the reduction of payments to those who have little need, and the continued extension of payments to those who have most need.

Any abritrary decisions based on the "mass" will continue to benefit a lot beyond their needs, and continue to hurt a lot who needs are not being met.