This winter...

CrystalLettuce

Is anyone else worried for how some of these cuts will affect people this winter?

Lately, there's been an increase in the price of gas coupled with a reduction in the fuel allowance.

Hundreds of pensioners die each year from being unable to adequately heat their homes. A lot of this is to do with poor insulation, but that's not something that's easy to fix.

If we have another bad winter(the sun is still at a solar minimum, so likely), it could be really devastating.

I heard there was meant to be some scheme to help people to pay for heating if they really need it, but I haven't heard anything of it? I'd be worried about how effective this is.

ei.sdraob

CrystalLettuce wrote: »

Is anyone else worried for how some of these cuts will affect people this winter?

Lately, there's been an increase in the price of gas coupled with a reduction in the fuel allowance.

Hundreds of pensioners die each year from being unable to adequately heat their homes. A lot of this is to do with poor insulation, but that's not something that's easy to fix.

If we have another bad winter(the sun is still at a solar minimum, so likely), it could be really devastating.

I heard there was meant to be some scheme to help people to pay for heating if they really need it, but I haven't heard anything of it? I'd be worried about how effective this is.

Pensioners are one group that are doing quite well in this recession btw

djpbarry

CrystalLettuce wrote: »

Hundreds of pensioners die each year from being unable to adequately heat their homes.

Really? I'd be genuinely surprised if this were true?

murphaph

djpbarry wrote: »

Really? I'd be genuinely surprised if this were true?

Me too. I would accept figures of a few dozen at face value but the OP is claiming "hundreds" of dead pensioners due to an inability to keep themselves warm. I think I'd need to see some stats on this.

As mentioned already, pensioners have seen no cuts to their basic payments, whilst blind people hav faced cuts in theirs, simply because they form a smaller voting bloc.

Crazy Horse 6

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Pensioners are one group that are doing quite well in this recession btw

You think do you.

murphaph

Crazy Horse 6 wrote: »

You think do you.

What cuts have pensioners seen thusfar exactly?

spank_inferno

Crazy Horse 6 wrote: »

You think do you.

Feel free to list the social welfare restrictions implemented against pensioners to date.

** Edit ** Sorry, I didnt want to seem like an ass.
Obviously it can be an issue for the elderly.

Many former council houses are "back boiler", including my gaff.

I'm ok lugging around bags of coal or wood.... but I imagine its tough when your old.

It matters little if the coal is free if you havent the strength to bring in several buckets of the stuff every day

paul71

murphaph wrote: »

Me too. I would accept figures of a few dozen at face value but the OP is claiming "hundreds" of dead pensioners due to an inability to keep themselves warm. I think I'd need to see some stats on this.

As mentioned already, pensioners have seen no cuts to their basic payments, whilst blind people hav faced cuts in theirs, simply because they form a smaller voting bloc.

I would have difficulty in excepting a figure of 1 or 2, it would be all over the news if an OAP died of the cold and the only thing similar that I recall was an instance of a younger woman dieing in her appartment last year, where a guard entering the appartment said it was freezing.

Welease

spank_inferno wrote: »

Feel free to list the social welfare restrictions implemented against pensioners to date.

I thought gas, electrical and smokeless fuel allowances for pensioners were cut ....

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0910/1224303851598.html

MagicMarker

I heard about a week ago that no one will be cut off this winter for not paying their bills? I can't remember where I heard it tbh.

headmaster

I'm another person who thinks pensioners are doing really well, they're brilliant at pulling the wool over our eyes when they feel like it. I also think that they would be very wise to keep quiet, in fact, very quiet in these times. If the ordinary working person gets to hear "exactly" what pensioners get into their pockets every week, including "all the extras", I think people would very quickly turn against them. If I was an old age pensioner, i'd be inclined to leave well enough alone and count my blessings. If cuts do come their way, they should just accept them in the same manner as everybody else in this country at the moment. We have all heard enough of the ," I agree there should be cuts, but not at the expense of"..la la la la la. Time now for the lot of us to shut up and take whatever pain is coming our way, everyone one of us. We've heard all the excuses at this stage.

RichardAnd

headmaster wrote: »

I think people would very quickly turn against them.

One of the biggest problems with the Irish is that they seem to fixate on what everyone has. During the boom, this meant coveting a neighbor's shiny stuffy, in the bust it seems to be a burning desire to see them become poorer. This is one of the many things we must leave behind if ever we want to become a mature society.

Doinker

MagicMarker wrote: »

I heard about a week ago that no one will be cut off this winter for not paying their bills? I can't remember where I heard it tbh.

As long as they (people in arrears) sign up to a payment plan or have a pay as you go meter installed.

Godge

CrystalLettuce wrote: »

Hundreds of pensioners die each year from being unable to adequately heat their homes. A lot of this is to do with poor insulation, but that's not something that's easy to fix.

.

I am sure hundreds of pensioners die each year but is it really from being unable to adequately heat their homes? Can you provide some evidence or figures or is this a special pleading exercise?

Bannasidhe

Godge wrote: »

I am sure hundreds of pensioners die each year but is it really from being unable to adequately heat their homes? Can you provide some evidence or figures or is this a special pleading exercise?

Well in NI which does not have the same level of support for pensioners in cold weather over 500 deaths were linked to hypothermia in cold spell of 2008/9 (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/cold-kills-over-500-pensioners-a-year-in-northern-ireland-committee-told-14152484.html).

longhalloween

MagicMarker wrote: »

I heard about a week ago that no one will be cut off this winter for not paying their bills? I can't remember where I heard it tbh.

Some TD said it on the radio...

ZYX

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Well in NI which does not have the same level of support for pensioners in cold weather over 500 deaths were linked to hypothermia in cold spell of 2008/9 (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/cold-kills-over-500-pensioners-a-year-in-northern-ireland-committee-told-14152484.html).

The figure is more like 500 for the entire UK.
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/hsq/health-statistics-quarterly/no--2--summer-1999/deaths-from-hypothermia-in-england-and-wales.pdf

irishh_bob

CrystalLettuce wrote: »

Is anyone else worried for how some of these cuts will affect people this winter?

Lately, there's been an increase in the price of gas coupled with a reduction in the fuel allowance.

Hundreds of pensioners die each year from being unable to adequately heat their homes. A lot of this is to do with poor insulation, but that's not something that's easy to fix.

If we have another bad winter(the sun is still at a solar minimum, so likely), it could be really devastating.

I heard there was meant to be some scheme to help people to pay for heating if they really need it, but I haven't heard anything of it? I'd be worried about how effective this is.

so you want to increase the old age pension ? , btw , im not saying i dont believe ( some ) pensioners die from cold , i dont however believe its anything to do with thier rate of pension

irishh_bob

headmaster wrote: »

I'm another person who thinks pensioners are doing really well, they're brilliant at pulling the wool over our eyes when they feel like it. I also think that they would be very wise to keep quiet, in fact, very quiet in these times. If the ordinary working person gets to hear "exactly" what pensioners get into their pockets every week, including "all the extras", I think people would very quickly turn against them. If I was an old age pensioner, i'd be inclined to leave well enough alone and count my blessings. If cuts do come their way, they should just accept them in the same manner as everybody else in this country at the moment. We have all heard enough of the ," I agree there should be cuts, but not at the expense of"..la la la la la. Time now for the lot of us to shut up and take whatever pain is coming our way, everyone one of us. We've heard all the excuses at this stage.

pensioners dont need to pull the wool over anyones eyes , us irish are a sentimental bunch who for the most part , buy into the idea that old = peniless

politicans dont just avoid touching the pension because they fear losing the grey vote , they know that the vast majority of people across the board are opposed to any kind of cuts to pensioners , hell will freeze over before the pension is touched by this goverment in the coming years

dev100

spank_inferno wrote: »

Feel free to list the social welfare restrictions implemented against pensioners to date.

** Edit ** Sorry, I didnt want to seem like an ass.
Obviously it can be an issue for the elderly.

Many former council houses are "back boiler", including my gaff.

I'm ok lugging around bags of coal or wood.... but I imagine its tough when your old.

It matters little if the coal is free if you havent the strength to bring in several buckets of the stuff every day

In my local area the council put in oil burners into the local authority houses a certain group and they werent pensioners either and they gave out stink they didnt want oil central heating wanted to keep their back boilers:)

Ya cant win !!!

murphaph

RichardAnd wrote: »

One of the biggest problems with the Irish is that they seem to fixate on what everyone has. During the boom, this meant coveting a neighbor's shiny stuffy, in the bust it seems to be a burning desire to see them become poorer. This is one of the many things we must leave behind if ever we want to become a mature society.

I don't give a fiddler's fcuk what a person has earned through their own graft. I am delighted that my boss is getting richer as our company gets stronger and expands-I have a measure of job security that I wouldn't have if it was going the other way. I DO care about what my taxes are spent on and this INCLUDES state pensions.

Why do I care? Because I want Ireland to run a balanced budget and not be racking up debt for my kids to pay off. I don't begrudge the pensioners a penny, we just can't afford their current rates.

If the burden was shared equally by all citizens (low earners coming into tax net, sw recipients including pensioners receiving reduced payments, public sector receiving reduced wages, everyone else paying a bit more tax) then the burden on individuals could genuinely be minimised. Excluding certain groups from cuts means other groups have to be affected more than necessary.

I really hate the lame old "begrudger" line that people trot out when expenditure is questioned.

Welease

murphaph wrote: »

I really hate the lame old "begrudger" line that people trot out when expenditure is questioned.

The "begrudger" line has to be used due to the absence of an intelligent counter arguement.

RichardAnd

Welease wrote: »

The "begrudger" line has to be used due to the absence of an intelligent counter arguement.

There is being intelligently critical and there is begrudging for the heck of it. Most of what goes on in here is of the latter.

Now, I never used the word begrudger in my post, I was simply making the point that people should look to their own lives more and to those of their fellows less. The world is a happier place when one stops nitpicking over the vicissitudes of their countrymen.

Welease

RichardAnd wrote: »

There is being intelligently critical and there is begrudging for the heck of it. Most of what goes on in here is of the latter.

Now, I never used the word begrudger in my post, I was simply making the point that people should look to their own lives more and to those of their fellows less. The world is a happier place when one stops nitpicking over the vicissitudes of their countrymen.

Is one to assume then that your previous 1,800 plus posts are about yourself? or have you yourself "nitpicked over the viccissitudes of their countrymen"? /yawn

It is important that everyone questions the governance and spending within this country (using the available facts!).. If that had been done in the previous decade we would not be in the position we currently find ourselves in...

Many of us didnt get ourselves into colossal debt.. Many of us worked hard to earn the life we have.. and continue to pay a large amount of tax to sustain the waste in this country.. In a democratic society I and others have every right to discuss where our taxes get used.

cyberhog

djpbarry wrote: »

Really? I'd be genuinely surprised if this were true?

I don't know how you could be surprised about older people dying from the cold. Have you been abroad the last few winters?

Government urged to reverse fuel cuts for vulnerable older people this winter
Fri, 16/09/2011 - 07:26


Age Action has urged the Minister for Social Protection Joan Burton to reverse cuts to the Household Benefits Package as a matter of urgency in order to avert further suffering and increased fatalities among older people this winter.

Speaking at the Department of Social Protection’s Pre-Budget Forum in Dublin this morning, Age Action’s Head of Advocacy and Communications Eamon Timmins warned that the last available data showed that there were up to 2,000 excess winter deaths in Ireland each year. Many of these are older people dying from cold-related illnesses such as pneumonia, heart attack and stroke.


“Unless the Government intervenes as a matter of urgency the plight of the most vulnerable older people who struggle to heat their homes will worsen,” Mr Timmins said.

http://www.ageaction.ie/government-urged-reverse-fuel-cuts-vulnerable-older-people-winter

murphaph

cyberhog wrote: »

http://www.ageaction.ie/government-urged-reverse-fuel-cuts-vulnerable-older-people-winter

That's biased. It's from Age Action. They will never ever say "old people get enough". Show me independent studies and I will listen! He says heart attacks and strokes are cold related but they are also related to loads of other things and can happen year round.

RichardAnd

Welease wrote: »

Is one to assume then that your previous 1,800 plus posts are about yourself? or have you yourself "nitpicked over the viccissitudes of their countrymen"? /yawn

It is important that everyone questions the governance and spending within this country (using the available facts!).. If that had been done in the previous decade we would not be in the position we currently find ourselves in...

Many of us didnt get ourselves into colossal debt.. Many of us worked hard to earn the life we have.. and continue to pay a large amount of tax to sustain the waste in this country.. In a democratic society I and others have every right to discuss where our taxes get used.

You have every right to discuss where taxes are spent, naturally. That, however was not the point I was making and in future, I would appreciate if you did not voice your disagreement in such a derisive manner. /yawn indeed.

My point was that constantly looking at the faults and boons of others is not a very happy way to live. I read and analyse the news from a variety of sources on a daily basis but always, my primary goal (but not my only goal) is not what others do but how I personally behave by the world. Who am I really to dismiss another's wage as excessive or their welfare payment as spurious. I don't pretend that we do not have a serious problem with money in this country but I, unlike many others here, do not pretend or believe that I have all of the solutions.

murphaph

RichardAnd wrote: »

You have every right to discuss where taxes are spent, naturally. That, however was not the point I was making and in future, I would appreciate if you did not voice your disagreement in such a derisive manner. /yawn indeed.

My point was that constantly looking at the faults and boons of others is not a very happy way to live. I read and analyse the news from a variety of sources on a daily basis but always, my primary goal (but not my only goal) is not what others do but how I personally behave by the world. Who am I really to dismiss another's wage as excessive or their welfare payment as spurious. I don't pretend that we do not have a serious problem with money in this country but I, unlike many others here, do not pretend or believe that I have all of the solutions.

I don't think anyone here has all the answers. From my perspective I just expect that all members of society should be a part of the solution and that includes pensioners.

Welease

RichardAnd wrote: »

You have every right to discuss where taxes are spent, naturally. That, however was not the point I was making and in future, I would appreciate if you did not voice your disagreement in such a derisive manner. /yawn indeed..

The point you were making and continue to make is irrelevant to the discussion on an economics forum.. I am more than willing to stop /yawning when you discuss the topic of the thread, and not what your primary goals in life are..

The topic was valid, the responses from both sides of the spectrum were valid opinions..

RichardAnd wrote: »

My point was that constantly looking at the faults and boons of others is not a very happy way to live. I read and analyse the news from a variety of sources on a daily basis but always, my primary goal (but not my only goal) is not what others do but how I personally behave by the world. Who am I really to dismiss another's wage as excessive or their welfare payment as spurious. I don't pretend that we do not have a serious problem with money in this country but I, unlike many others here, do not pretend or believe that I have all of the solutions.

If you don't want to engage in a debate on wages or welfare payments, then why bother posting on a economics forum in a thread about pension payments and basic requirements for the elderly over winter?

Who here has said they have all of the answers? Many are discussing the problem, which you attempt to reduce to "dismiss another's wages as excessive" and a "burning desires to see them poorer" , "nitpicking" and labelling us as an immature society..

If you have a problem with people debating a topic, then I politely suggest you don't read the threads...

irishh_bob

cyberhog wrote: »

I don't know how you could be surprised about older people dying from the cold. Have you been abroad the last few winters?



http://www.ageaction.ie/government-urged-reverse-fuel-cuts-vulnerable-older-people-winter

age action are a QUANGO who represten a particular interest group, if pensioners were recieving two grand per week , theese people would still be calling for more , they earn thier living from being the elderlys poor mouth

Welease

The problem lies in the aggregation of any sector of socieity into a bucket and attempting to discern their needs based on a single arbitrary scale such as age..

There are many pensioners who will likely go hungry and cold this winter, and there as many pensioners who will continue to live very happy fulfilling retirements. The age profile of the person is not as important as the financial profile of that retired person..

The problem is the one size fits all method of pension (and other welfare payments in this country) payments, which make no attempt to lower costs through the reduction of payments to those who have little need, and the continued extension of payments to those who have most need.

Any abritrary decisions based on the "mass" will continue to benefit a lot beyond their needs, and continue to hurt a lot who needs are not being met.

Weylin

CrystalLettuce wrote: »

Is anyone else worried for how some of these cuts will affect people this winter?

Lately, there's been an increase in the price of gas coupled with a reduction in the fuel allowance.

Hundreds of pensioners die each year from being unable to adequately heat their homes. A lot of this is to do with poor insulation, but that's not something that's easy to fix.

If we have another bad winter(the sun is still at a solar minimum, so likely), it could be really devastating.

I heard there was meant to be some scheme to help people to pay for heating if they really need it, but I haven't heard anything of it? I'd be worried about how effective this is.

total balderdash! no proof whatsoever to back this up.

Bannasidhe

Am I the only one who is concerned about the perceptible feck the vulnerable tendency in this country (and N0 - I am not talking about so called dole 'scroungers').

We are cutting SNA numbers that enable children with special needs their constitutionally guaranteed rights to an education at a cheaper cost then 'special schools' while still subsidising private schools for the well off.

Now it's the pensioners - as if this were one homogeneous group all claiming non-contributory pensions from the state.

Those who have contributory pensions paid into them. Their taxes built this state and paid for the education, hospitals, infrastructure of all of those who want to see them 'pay their share'. They paid it forward!

Those on private pensions - paid for them and they are taxable.

I would like to see the demographic of those on non-contributory - I imagine a great many of them are like my own mother who was a traditional Irish Mammy and stayed at home to mind the kids while her husband was the 'breadwinner'. I suspect the vast majority contributed to this country by raising its children (that's us folks!) and fulfilling the traditional role assigned to women in Ireland what they didn't do was pay stamps as they had no independent income.

But now we quibble about how many, if any, might die if we have another cold winter - or how many died in previous cold winters - due to fuel poverty and cut backs even as gas and electricity prices rise.

It honestly sickens me.

Godge

Welease wrote: »

The problem lies in the aggregation of any sector of socieity into a bucket and attempting to discern their needs based on a single arbitrary scale such as age..

There are many pensioners who will likely go hungry and cold this winter, and there as many pensioners who will continue to live very happy fulfilling retirements. The age profile of the person is not as important as the financial profile of that retired person..

The problem is the one size fits all method of pension (and other welfare payments in this country) payments, which make no attempt to lower costs through the reduction of payments to those who have little need, and the continued extension of payments to those who have most need.

Any abritrary decisions based on the "mass" will continue to benefit a lot beyond their needs, and continue to hurt a lot who needs are not being met.

Very true, I know a few pensioners who will not feel much of the cold this winter as they will be spending a good part of it in Spain warming themselves. Spending our hard-earned taxes over there too as many of them are public service pensioners.

Godge

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Am I the only one who is concerned about the perceptible feck the vulnerable tendency in this country (and N0 - I am not talking about so called dole 'scroungers').

We are cutting SNA numbers that enable children with special needs their constitutionally guaranteed rights to an education at a cheaper cost then 'special schools' while still subsidising private schools for the well off.

Now it's the pensioners - as if this were one homogeneous group all claiming non-contributory pensions from the state.

Those who have contributory pensions paid into them. Their taxes built this state and paid for the education, hospitals, infrastructure of all of those who want to see them 'pay their share'. They paid it forward!

Those on private pensions - paid for them and they are taxable.

I would like to see the demographic of those on non-contributory - I imagine a great many of them are like my own mother who was a traditional Irish Mammy and stayed at home to mind the kids while her husband was the 'breadwinner'. I suspect the vast majority contributed to this country by raising its children (that's us folks!) and fulfilling the traditional role assigned to women in Ireland what they didn't do was pay stamps as they had no independent income.

But now we quibble about how many, if any, might die if we have another cold winter - or how many died in previous cold winters - due to fuel poverty and cut backs even as gas and electricity prices rise.

It honestly sickens me.

Is there nobody who is getting more than they should? Sure there are kids who are not getting their special needs assistant but there are other parents whose child is being taken out of class to go on several holidays and their SNA is delighted because that means a couple of weeks without hassle. If they can afford to go on three holidays a year, why can't they pay for part of the SNA for their kid? It would mean more money to go around for those who can't afford to pay.

Pensioners who winter abroad, should their pension be cut? As for the mammy who stayed at home, weren't they lucky. Because we are propping up their comfortable retirements, there are plenty of mammys who have to go out to work because they have no choice who won't get to stay at home with their kids and because the country will be broke when they retire, will not get a comfortable pension either.

Who do you mean by "dole" scroungers? The facts are there, many families are better off on social welfare than working. That is wrong. I know plenty of working people who did not go on holiday. I don't know anyone on social welfare who didn't, even if it was only camping for a few days in the rain down the road. Social welfare needs to be cut because livign standards have come down for everyone else. The gap between work and social welfare has closed because pay is down bigtime and taxes are up hugely but social welfare has barely changed. That is reality.

I know about HSE paying for double debs tickets for kids while working parents can't afford to send their kids to debs. I know families on social welfare for a couple of years still driving around in big cars and holidays abroad. I suspect nixers but I have no evidence. I have heard of many other scandals of social welfare but these are the ones I know first-hand. It needs to be tackled much better.

Why can't we just abolish child benefit for everyone except children under one and put some of the money into school books for everyone, school uniforms, pre-school for under-4s and some SNAs as well. Child benefit won't go on holidays, be drunk or smoked or sent to Poland, instead it will go to where it is needed. As well, there should be a billion and a half left over in savings to pay the IMF.

Instead, we have people crying about the old people dying of the cold. Do you not know that old people die every year? I am sure a few die of the cold, but do they die destitute? Do they have money in the bank for the rainy day but aren't willing to spend it on the freezing day? Could their children not buy some fuel for them? It is amazing the way many people expect the state to take care of their parents. People die of the cold every winter but usually they are homeless, living on the street. Keeping fuel allowance won't save their lives as they are not entitled to it. But cutting pensions or getting rid of sweetheart tax deals for over-65s might mean more money for the homeless.

There are lots of ideas out there about how to cut the social welfare but not hurt those who need it most. Sure, SKY will lose a few subscriptions and Ibiza will be a bit quieter next summer but the reality is that the State will continue to look after those who need it the most. There is nobody here calling for the homeless to be abandoned, there is nobody here calling for social welfare to be abolished, there is nobody here calling for the State to stop providing local authority housing. What people are calling for is for the balance between working and social welfare to be adjusted so that there is a real incentive to work and that only those who really need social welfare get it. What is so sickening about that?

Before you call me heartless and cynical, read the post carefully and you will see that I am looking for more money for the homeless, more direct provision for those kids whose parents don't pass on child benefit and BTE payments, more SNAs for those who really need them and can't afford them. What is so sickening about that?

n97 mini

CrystalLettuce wrote: »

Lately, there's been an increase in the price of gas coupled with a reduction in the fuel allowance.

The fuel allowance is extra-ordinarily generous.

It's paid for 8 months of the year and it amounts to €170 per two months.

Our house is 30 years old and we have our heating on for no more than 5 months of the year. In the depths of a minus 12 degree winter like the last two, we hit €170, but only once.

In addition many pensioners have private or other state pensions. A minority would be rely on the state pension alone.

irishh_bob

Welease wrote: »

The problem lies in the aggregation of any sector of socieity into a bucket and attempting to discern their needs based on a single arbitrary scale such as age..

There are many pensioners who will likely go hungry and cold this winter, and there as many pensioners who will continue to live very happy fulfilling retirements. The age profile of the person is not as important as the financial profile of that retired person..

The problem is the one size fits all method of pension (and other welfare payments in this country) payments, which make no attempt to lower costs through the reduction of payments to those who have little need, and the continued extension of payments to those who have most need.

Any abritrary decisions based on the "mass" will continue to benefit a lot beyond their needs, and continue to hurt a lot who needs are not being met.

thier are pensioners who will go hungary this winter as thier are pensioners who have serious alcohol addictions or relatives who have addictions and are thus a drain on thier resources but as they say , hard cases make bad policys , pensioners are extremley well looked after and no pensioner objectivley speaking should be unable to afford food , food is thier only real expense considering all they get for free

irishh_bob

n97 mini wrote: »

The fuel allowance is extra-ordinarily generous.

It's paid for 8 months of the year and it amounts to €170 per two months.

Our house is 30 years old and we have our heating on for no more than 5 months of the year. In the depths of a minus 12 degree winter like the last two, we hit €170, but only once.

In addition many pensioners have private or other state pensions. A minority would be rely on the state pension alone.

the state pension itself is extremley generous , pensioners are spoiled rotten in this country , i really do despair when i read such sentimental clap trap about them being forgotten and left to suffer , they are the most cosseted of all ( officially ) vulnerable groups , a redicolously high threshold is in place for qualifying for a medical card once your over seventy , 699 euro per week and you can still see your doc for free , 1398 for couples over 70 , frankly i believe young couples mortgaged up to thier eyeballs are a lot more vulnerable than elderly people who bar a drop of petrol and groceries , have almost zero outgoings

murphaph

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Am I the only one who is concerned about the perceptible feck the vulnerable tendency in this country

Could you briefly list people who you perceive as vulnerable and those you perceive as not vulnerable during these times?

Welease

irishh_bob wrote: »

thier are pensioners who will go hungary this winter as thier are pensioners who have serious alcohol addictions or relatives who have addictions and are thus a drain on thier resources but as they say , hard cases make bad policys , pensioners are extremley well looked after and no pensioner objectivley speaking should be unable to afford food , food is thier only real expense considering all they get for free

Absolutely true.. I don't for one second believe that pensioners en masse are receiving too little benefit.. there will however be (for various reasons, some of which you outline) pensioners who will suffer over the winter months due to cold etc. (The same issue exists with Child Benefit, Diability Allowances etc.)

The issue is how do you identify those who are the most vulnerable are, especially when Welfare costs need to be radically scaled down, but also radically cut costs where payments really don't need to be paid at all.

I believe (as per my post) part of the solution lies in removing (or at least modifying) our universal benefits system based solely on abritrary scales like age, to a system where financial need is also identified. Cuts in cost can be initially taken from those who have no need for the state pension while those who rely solely on the pension would be left untouched until last, because they will likely need to eventually involved also (but to a lesser scale financially).

Tabnabs

murphaph wrote: »

I DO care about what my taxes are spent on and this INCLUDES state pensions.

Why do I care? Because I want Ireland to run a balanced budget and not be racking up debt for my kids to pay off. I don't begrudge the pensioners a penny, we just can't afford their current rates.

If the burden was shared equally by all citizens (low earners coming into tax net, sw recipients including pensioners receiving reduced payments, public sector receiving reduced wages, everyone else paying a bit more tax) then the burden on individuals could genuinely be minimised. Excluding certain groups from cuts means other groups have to be affected more than necessary.

I really hate the lame old "begrudger" line that people trot out when expenditure is questioned.

The problem I have with this argument is that we are ignoring the public servants, civil servants and semi state employees who are paid many multiples of the average industrial wage. Let's see the ESB workers who have an average salary with benefits in excess of €94000 take a hit, their Bord Gáis colleagues and all other public services employees who earn in excess of (say) €70,000 should see their salaries reduced too.

You and others talk of equal burden sharing but from where I'm sitting there's still plenty of meat left before we start cutting into the bone. €230 a week pensioners or €1350 and above per week state employees, I know which group I would rather see protesting over cuts...

djpbarry

cyberhog wrote: »

I don't know how you could be surprised about older people dying from the cold.

Surprised by people dying from cold? Not really, no. Surprised by hundreds of elderly people in Ireland dying specifically because they cannot heat their homes? Yes, that would be very surprising.

Eamon Timmins warned that the last available data showed that there were up to 2,000 excess winter deaths in Ireland each year. Many of these are older people dying from cold-related illnesses such as pneumonia, heart attack and stroke.

First of all, “Excess Winter Deaths” are defined as the number of deaths during the four winter months (December to March) less the average number of deaths during the preceding autumn (August to November) and the following summer (April to July). It will almost always be a positive number as deaths will almost always be higher in winter compared to any other time of year – it doesn’t necessarily mean anything’s wrong with society. Secondly, Mr. Timmins doesn’t specify (conveniently enough) how many of those 2,000 are in the pensioner age bracket. Thirdly, since when are heart attacks and strokes “cold-related diseases”? And finally (and somewhat related to the previous point), it is not stated how many of those 2,000 deaths result specifically from an inability to heat a home.

djpbarry

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Am I the only one who is concerned about the perceptible feck the vulnerable tendency in this country...

You’re probably not the only one, no. But you’re probably in the minority. And for the record, nobody is suggesting that “the vulnerable” should be forgotten about. What people are objecting to in this specific instance is the labelling of everyone over the age of 65 as “vulnerable” – it’s completely ridiculous.

djpbarry

Tabnabs wrote: »

You and others talk of equal burden sharing but from where I'm sitting there's still plenty of meat left before we start cutting into the bone. €230 a week pensioners or €1350 and above per week state employees, I know which group I would rather see protesting over cuts...

To be fair, the state is drawing up plans to offload the likes of the ESB and it’s likely to be met with fierce resistance from its employees as they know their salaries will take a massive hit if they’re privatised.

the groutch

OAPS have it so much better than people realise
the vast majoirty of them who havent moved to a hospice or nursing home are living in a house has the mortgage long since paid off
they get free medical treatment, free travel, almost all their utilites paid off
food and clothes are about the only things they ever have to pay for
and if things get tough financially they have the support of children/grandchildren, a luxury alot of working class families don't have

so don't try tell us that OAPS are dying because they can't afford heating

RichardAnd

the groutch wrote: »

OAPS have it so much better than people realise
the vast majoirty of them who havent moved to a hospice or nursing home are living in a house has the mortgage long since paid off
they get free medical treatment, free travel, almost all their utilites paid off
food and clothes are about the only things they ever have to pay for
and if things get tough financially they have the support of children/grandchildren, a luxury alot of working class families don't have

so don't try tell us that OAPS are dying because they can't afford heating

Most of them also worked for the better part of their adult lives.

irishh_bob

RichardAnd wrote: »

Most of them also worked for the better part of their adult lives.

do you think the present generation of thirty year olds are going to be able to use that ( banal pull at the heartstrings cliched ) excuse when they hit 66 ? , who doesnt work the bulk of thie adult lives , getting old is a reality , not a spectacular achievement

Bannasidhe

Godge wrote: »

Is there nobody who is getting more than they should? Sure there are kids who are not getting their special needs assistant but there are other parents whose child is being taken out of class to go on several holidays and their SNA is delighted because that means a couple of weeks without hassle. If they can afford to go on three holidays a year, why can't they pay for part of the SNA for their kid? It would mean more money to go around for those who can't afford to pay.

Every student in a private school who is being subsidised by the State while cuts are being made to SNAs and non-private class numbers are increasing are getting more then their share - and I say this as the product of a private education. If parents are taking their children out of school to go on holiday that is down to the parents and has nothing to do with SNA provision.

Pensioners who winter abroad, should their pension be cut?

Their pensions hould be taxable at PAYE rates - if they can afford a holiday after that - that's their business. How many of them do you think are on Non-contributory or the basic contributory?

As for the mammy who stayed at home, weren't they lucky. Because we are propping up their comfortable retirements,

Many Mammys had no choice given the Marriage Ban forced them to leave their jobs - these Mammy's are now pensioners. Other's were under severe societal pressure to conform and stay at home. Or were unpaid workers on the family farm. Are you so sure the non-contributory pension can be described as 'comfortable'?

There are plenty of mammys who have to go out to work because they have no choice who won't get to stay at home with their kids and because the country will be broke when they retire, will not get a comfortable pension either.

The same is true for all those who pay stamps.

Who do you mean by "dole" scroungers? The facts are there, many families are better off on social welfare than working. That is wrong. I know plenty of working people who did not go on holiday. I don't know anyone on social welfare who didn't, even if it was only camping for a few days in the rain down the road. Social welfare needs to be cut because livign standards have come down for everyone else. The gap between work and social welfare has closed because pay is down bigtime and taxes are up hugely but social welfare has barely changed. That is reality.

and there are others who having paid taxes for decades are getting the bare minimum of 188 p.w on SW having lost their jobs in the recent downturn.

I know about HSE paying for double debs tickets for kids while working parents can't afford to send their kids to debs. I know families on social welfare for a couple of years still driving around in big cars and holidays abroad. I suspect nixers but I have no evidence. I have heard of many other scandals of social welfare but these are the ones I know first-hand. It needs to be tackled much better.

If people are committing fraud they should be prosecuted - regardless of whether they are on SW or a banker. Fraud is Fraud. However, one cannot claim ALL SW recipients are committing fraud. Should they be punished too?

Why can't we just abolish child benefit for everyone except children under one and put some of the money into school books for everyone, school uniforms, pre-school for under-4s and some SNAs as well. Child benefit won't go on holidays, be drunk or smoked or sent to Poland, instead it will go to where it is needed. As well, there should be a billion and a half left over in savings to pay the IMF.

I would support child benefit being means tested. As for direct provision of services as an alternative I think it is good in theory but as it would appear that the likes of Dept of Social Protection and the HSE cannot manage their current briefs I doubt any government agency would be capable of actually implementing this. If they were, I would support the idea.

Instead, we have people crying about the old people dying of the cold. Do you not know that old people die every year? I am sure a few die of the cold, but do they die destitute? Do they have money in the bank for the rainy day but aren't willing to spend it on the freezing day? Could their children not buy some fuel for them? It is amazing the way many people expect the state to take care of their parents. People die of the cold every winter but usually they are homeless, living on the street. Keeping fuel allowance won't save their lives as they are not entitled to it. But cutting pensions or getting rid of sweetheart tax deals for over-65s might mean more money for the homeless.

People should take care of their parents - in an ideal world. The State should also fulfil its obligations to protect the vulnerable. No - I do not believe ALL pensioners are vunerable (pensioners Ahern and Cowen and McCarthy are doing quite well), I am talking about those who rely solely on the basic state pension. I do not think ALL pensioners should have a medical health card for example - or free travel. Cut these from those who have private health insurance or the means to pay in in order to preserve it for those who genuinely need it.

There are lots of ideas out there about how to cut the social welfare but not hurt those who need it most. Sure, SKY will lose a few subscriptions and Ibiza will be a bit quieter next summer but the reality is that the State will continue to look after those who need it the most. There is nobody here calling for the homeless to be abandoned, there is nobody here calling for social welfare to be abolished, there is nobody here calling for the State to stop providing local authority housing. What people are calling for is for the balance between working and social welfare to be adjusted so that there is a real incentive to work and that only those who really need social welfare get it. What is so sickening about that?

But Godge - when I suggested in another thread that P.S pensions for top earners be drastically cut you protested loudly. As I said then - if SW need to be cut, it needs to be cut - but to cut the lowest while allowing an overpaid, privileged elite to continue to walk away with pensions well in excess of the average industrial wage - all paid out of public funds is manifestly unfair. I am not getting into the Sky watching dole scrounger debate again. It was amply demonstrated that not all SW recipients are sitting down all day eating sweeties and watching TV.

Before you call me heartless and cynical, read the post carefully and you will see that I am looking for more money for the homeless, more direct provision for those kids whose parents don't pass on child benefit and BTE payments, more SNAs for those who really need them and can't afford them. What is so sickening about that?

I wasn't actually referring to you - we differ politically but I acknowledge you have thought deeply about the things you comment on and are genuinely searching for solutions.

Bannasidhe

Welease wrote: »

Absolutely true.. I don't for one second believe that pensioners en masse are receiving too little benefit.. there will however be (for various reasons, some of which you outline) pensioners who will suffer over the winter months due to cold etc. (The same issue exists with Child Benefit, Diability Allowances etc.)

The issue is how do you identify those who are the most vulnerable are, especially when Welfare costs need to be radically scaled down, but also radically cut costs where payments really don't need to be paid at all.

I believe (as per my post) part of the solution lies in removing (or at least modifying) our universal benefits system based solely on abritrary scales like age, to a system where financial need is also identified. Cuts in cost can be initially taken from those who have no need for the state pension while those who rely solely on the pension would be left untouched until last, because they will likely need to eventually involved also (but to a lesser scale financially).

I agree completely.

Pharaoh1

djpbarry wrote: »

To be fair, the state is drawing up plans to offload the likes of the ESB and it’s likely to be met with fierce resistance from its employees as they know their salaries will take a massive hit if they’re privatised.

Looks to me like the state has drawn up plans to maintain the status quo in the semi states if the plan consists of selling a minority stake in the ESB.
The unions will likely put on a bit of a show of fierce resistance safe in the knowledge that the gravy will continue to flow.

jackiebaron

headmaster wrote: »

I'm another person who thinks pensioners are doing really well, they're brilliant at pulling the wool over our eyes when they feel like it. I also think that they would be very wise to keep quiet, in fact, very quiet in these times. If the ordinary working person gets to hear "exactly" what pensioners get into their pockets every week, including "all the extras", I think people would very quickly turn against them. If I was an old age pensioner, i'd be inclined to leave well enough alone and count my blessings. If cuts do come their way, they should just accept them in the same manner as everybody else in this country at the moment. We have all heard enough of the ," I agree there should be cuts, but not at the expense of"..la la la la la. Time now for the lot of us to shut up and take whatever pain is coming our way, everyone one of us. We've heard all the excuses at this stage.

Ah shut the fcuk up and speak for yourself. Who are you to speak for everyone else?