A Lutheran article on Once Saved, Always Saved.

PatricaMcKay2

I was going to post this in the Catholic/Protestant debate but have decided not to as this article is bound to annoy both the Roman Catholics and Evangelicals. It does though stick to what the Scriptures say and doesnt try to force it into a tight box constructed using some verses "taken to a logical conclusion" to the point that they contradict other ones, which is something I feel that both Roman Catholics and Evangelicals can be guilty of.

http://www.orlutheran.com/html/once.html

"There are two sets of Bible passages that speak of falling away. First, there are those which directly warn against such a thing happening to believers.
One example is Galatians 5:4: 'You are separated from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by Law, you have fallen from grace." Paul had taught the true Gospel to the Galatians. They had joyfully received that Gospel and became Christians, not by appearance but in actuality. They were justified by faith, received the Holy Spirit, and miracles were performed in their midst (See Galatians 3:1-5). They were Christians in every sense of the word. But to these who had once been Christians Paul now says, "You have fallen from grace " and 'you are separated from Christ" if you attempt to be justified by the Law. What else can this mean but that they who had been true believers were in danger of falling away, of no longer being Christians. If falling away permanently is an impossibility then Paul's words have no meaning and his very real concern is misplaced.
A second example is Luke 8:13. In this passage Jesus is explaining the meaning of the Parable of the Sower, specifically the meaning of the second soil. Our Lord says, "But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the Word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away." Here Jesus says, unmistakably, that it is possible for someone to receive the Gospel, truly believe for a while, but then fall away, because of temptation. To those who try to say that such people were never really Christian, Jesus words disagree. He says in clear words, that they 'believe for a while " and then 'fall away ". One cannot fall away (the Greek Word here is "aphistemi") from something that one wasn't truly a part of to begin with.
That you may understand that these passages are not isolated occurrences read also the following passages and the context which surrounds each: I Corinthians 10:12; 1 Timothy 1:18-20; Hebrews 4:11; Hebrews 12:15; 2 Peter 3:17."

PDN

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

I was going to post this in the Catholic/Protestant debate but have decided not to as this article is bound to annoy both the Roman Catholics and Evangelicals. It does though stick to what the Scriptures say and doesnt try to force it into a tight box constructed using some verses "taken to a logical conclusion" to the point that they contradict other ones, which is something I feel that both Roman Catholics and Evangelicals can be guilty of.

http://www.orlutheran.com/html/once.html

"There are two sets of Bible passages that speak of falling away. First, there are those which directly warn against such a thing happening to believers.
One example is Galatians 5:4: 'You are separated from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by Law, you have fallen from grace." Paul had taught the true Gospel to the Galatians. They had joyfully received that Gospel and became Christians, not by appearance but in actuality. They were justified by faith, received the Holy Spirit, and miracles were performed in their midst (See Galatians 3:1-5). They were Christians in every sense of the word. But to these who had once been Christians Paul now says, "You have fallen from grace " and 'you are separated from Christ" if you attempt to be justified by the Law. What else can this mean but that they who had been true believers were in danger of falling away, of no longer being Christians. If falling away permanently is an impossibility then Paul's words have no meaning and his very real concern is misplaced.
A second example is Luke 8:13. In this passage Jesus is explaining the meaning of the Parable of the Sower, specifically the meaning of the second soil. Our Lord says, "But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the Word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away." Here Jesus says, unmistakably, that it is possible for someone to receive the Gospel, truly believe for a while, but then fall away, because of temptation. To those who try to say that such people were never really Christian, Jesus words disagree. He says in clear words, that they 'believe for a while " and then 'fall away ". One cannot fall away (the Greek Word here is "aphistemi") from something that one wasn't truly a part of to begin with.
That you may understand that these passages are not isolated occurrences read also the following passages and the context which surrounds each: I Corinthians 10:12; 1 Timothy 1:18-20; Hebrews 4:11; Hebrews 12:15; 2 Peter 3:17."

I'm not quite sure why you feel it would annoy the evangelicals. Many, possibly most, evangelicals hold to a Wesleyan or Arminian view and do not believe in 'once saved always saved'.

gimmebroadband

We are not Guaranteed Salvation; We Hope For Salvation.

Heb. 9:12 - Christ's sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We
participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God's doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of "once saved, always saved," such a novel theory is not found in Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.


http://www.scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html#salvation-II

And.........

SonOfAdam

gimmebroadband wrote:

Christ's sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation

So Christ secured our redemption but not our salvation ? He bought us back for what then? Did He abandon us to strive for the salvation part ? And if we haven't striven enough for the salvation what about the price paid for the redemption? Is that cancelled against us ? I'm at a loss.

antiskeptic

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

It does though stick to what the Scriptures say and doesnt try to force it into a tight box constructed using some verses "taken to a logical conclusion" to the point that they contradict other ones, which is something I feel that both Roman Catholics and Evangelicals can be guilty of.

I'm not quite sure of the 'not forcing into a tight box'.

One example is Galatians 5:4: 'You are separated from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by Law, you have fallen from grace."

But to these who had once been Christians Paul now says, "You have fallen from grace " and 'you are separated from Christ" if you attempt to be justified by the Law. What else can this mean but that they who had been true believers were in danger of falling away, of no longer being Christians. If falling away permanently is an impossibility then Paul's words have no meaning and his very real concern is misplaced.

This is a poor argumentation in the light of the quantity of doctrine that supports a once off / one directional transaction involved in a person being born again. The doctrine of a persons joining to Christ, their being a new creation, the old man being killed off, there being no condemnation, their having eternal life .. is to be dismantled by a few 'proof' verses??

Questions:

Is "separated from Christ" the only possible translation (the NIV uses alienated)? Or is it possible to be separated from Christ in any way other than in the sense of being lost? What about moving closer to God and he will move closer to you - in reverse: you move away and God moves away and your purposes are at odds. Would you not then be alienated? Separated in the sense the Prodigal Son was?

And this "fallen from grace" term. Can we find that same expression used of the otherwise established lost so as begin to support the notion of the found being lost. Or are we simply laying our doctrine (found men can be lost) onto the term.

Paul can exhort and warn and admonish without it having anything to do with a loss of salvation. Returning to the law is a corruption, it is turning away from that by which we are sustained (grace). It's a travesty because of what it brings about in us and because of what it does to our message. So long as he has one reason to tackle legalism other than it would lead to loss of salvation then it need not mean his reasons have to do with a person losing their salvation.


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A second example is Luke 8:13. In this passage Jesus is explaining the meaning of the Parable of the Sower, specifically the meaning of the second soil. Our Lord says, "But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the Word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away." Here Jesus says, unmistakably, that it is possible for someone to receive the Gospel, truly believe for a while, but then fall away, because of temptation. To those who try to say that such people were never really Christian, Jesus words disagree. He says in clear words, that they 'believe for a while " and then 'fall away ". One cannot fall away (the Greek Word here is "aphistemi") from something that one wasn't truly a part of to begin with.

Again, you've got the doctrine of loss of salvation being imported into the text rather than being derived from the text. Yes there are some loose terms "believe" and "falling away" and Hey Presto! this belief is belief unto salvation and the falling away, falling from salvation. No account is taken of their lack of root (with Jesus being the root/vine into which true believers are grafted)



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That you may understand that these passages are not isolated occurrences read also the following passages and the context which surrounds each: I Corinthians 10:12; 1 Timothy 1:18-20; Hebrews 4:11; Hebrews 12:15; 2 Peter 3:17."

+1

My emphasis.

wolfsbane

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

I was going to post this in the Catholic/Protestant debate but have decided not to as this article is bound to annoy both the Roman Catholics and Evangelicals. It does though stick to what the Scriptures say and doesnt try to force it into a tight box constructed using some verses "taken to a logical conclusion" to the point that they contradict other ones, which is something I feel that both Roman Catholics and Evangelicals can be guilty of.

http://www.orlutheran.com/html/once.html

"There are two sets of Bible passages that speak of falling away. First, there are those which directly warn against such a thing happening to believers.
One example is Galatians 5:4: 'You are separated from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by Law, you have fallen from grace." Paul had taught the true Gospel to the Galatians. They had joyfully received that Gospel and became Christians, not by appearance but in actuality. They were justified by faith, received the Holy Spirit, and miracles were performed in their midst (See Galatians 3:1-5). They were Christians in every sense of the word. But to these who had once been Christians Paul now says, "You have fallen from grace " and 'you are separated from Christ" if you attempt to be justified by the Law. What else can this mean but that they who had been true believers were in danger of falling away, of no longer being Christians. If falling away permanently is an impossibility then Paul's words have no meaning and his very real concern is misplaced.
A second example is Luke 8:13. In this passage Jesus is explaining the meaning of the Parable of the Sower, specifically the meaning of the second soil. Our Lord says, "But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the Word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away." Here Jesus says, unmistakably, that it is possible for someone to receive the Gospel, truly believe for a while, but then fall away, because of temptation. To those who try to say that such people were never really Christian, Jesus words disagree. He says in clear words, that they 'believe for a while " and then 'fall away ". One cannot fall away (the Greek Word here is "aphistemi") from something that one wasn't truly a part of to begin with.
That you may understand that these passages are not isolated occurrences read also the following passages and the context which surrounds each: I Corinthians 10:12; 1 Timothy 1:18-20; Hebrews 4:11; Hebrews 12:15; 2 Peter 3:17."

Jesus and the apostles also told us that there is belief and belief. The belief of demons is not the belief of the true Christian, for example. So too for fair-weather believers - the type of belief is revealed when the cost is presented. Their belief was conditional. The true believer has unconditional faith. The parable points out it is the condition of the heart that determines the nature of the belief. A new heart produces true belief.

When Paul says that those who revert to Judaism have fallen from grace, does he mean they were truly saved and then lost? No, he is just saying their profession of faith/belief has been exposed for what it was - not rooted in grace as they claimed, but a temporary flirtation with the idea and a reversion to their actual status.


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James 3:19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!

alex73

I really Fail to see how the Concept of Salvation in the Protestant Church's is Different to the Catholic Church. I believe in Christ, I accept his commandments and Life a Christian life completely his will and mission in my life? faith is an act of will, if we believe we follow Christ. Is there any other path to Christ?

PatricaMcKay2

wolfsbane wrote: »

When Paul says that those who revert to Judaism have fallen from grace, does he mean they were truly saved and then lost? No, he is just saying their profession of faith/belief has been exposed for what it was - not rooted in grace as they claimed, but a temporary flirtation with the idea and a reversion to their actual status.


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James 3:19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!

How though can you fall from something that you never in? St Paul also speaks very highly of their past conduct and addresses them in a very hopeful manner which is filled with fatherly concern.

antiskeptic

alex73 wrote: »

I really Fail to see how the Concept of Salvation in the Protestant Church's is Different to the Catholic Church.

In the Catholic church, your salvation is centrally dependent on how you perform w.r.t. God's commandments. In the Protestant church your salvation isn't dependent on your performance.

I believe in Christ,

So do the demons. Clearly there is a particular way in which true believers believe in Christ

I accept his commandments

So do the unbelievers - to the extent that they follow his commandments. Not every unbeliever is a murderer afterall.

.. and Life a Christian life completely his will and mission in my life?

You don't live your life completely in his will. You sin. You disobey him every day.

faith is an act of will,

faith is a gift from God. According to the bible at least

if we believe we follow Christ.

Define "follow Christ" in the context of your sin

Is there any other path to Christ?

Other than being in him? I don't suppose so

PatricaMcKay2

antiskeptic wrote: »

Is "separated from Christ" the only possible translation (the NIV uses alienated)? Or is it possible to be separated from Christ in any way other than in the sense of being lost? What about moving closer to God and he will move closer to you - in reverse: you move away and God moves away and your purposes are at odds. Would you not then be alienated? Separated in the sense the Prodigal Son was?
.

I would advise you to steer clear of modern translations. I will start a thread on this in time.

One thing I will credit the Free Ps with is sticking to the KJV. And one thing I will curse the RCC with is abandoning the Douay Rheims.

PatricaMcKay2

antiskeptic wrote: »

In the Catholic church, your salvation is centrally dependent on how you perform w.r.t. God's commandments. In the Protestant church your salvation isn't dependent on your performance.

Some Roman Catholics would rightly say it depends on God's Grace and mercy, and would say so correctly. Thomas Aquinas is not that far removed on this issue from Calvin.

Stop taking gimmebroadband seriously and his spamming of this forum.

gimmebroadband

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

Some Roman Catholics would rightly say it depends on God's Grace and mercy, and would say so correctly. Thomas Aquinas is not that far removed on this issue from Calvin.

Stop taking gimmebroadband seriously and his spamming of this forum.

I take offence that you imply that I'm spamming. Those links I post make a better job of describing what Catholics believe than I can - BTW I am a she!

gimmebroadband

SonOfAdam wrote: »

[/B]

So Christ secured our redemption but not our salvation ? He bought us back for what then? Did He abandon us to strive for the salvation part ? And if we haven't striven enough for the salvation what about the price paid for the redemption? Is that cancelled against us ? I'm at a loss.

Chist redeemed the human race of the sin of Adam and Eve, (original sin). Each person will be held accountable for his own personal sin. We must continue to work out our Salvation with fear and trembling! For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will.



"Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace."

Sixth session of the Council of Trent.

http://history.hanover.edu/early/trent/ct06.html

alex73

@ antiskeptic Post #9.

Ok.. Lets get back to basics.

1. So we both agree that without Christ we can't be saved. Without faith in him. Right?

2. Regarding works... Unless they are what Christ wants they are of no consequence.

Yes Faith is a Gift from God, but like many Gifts it can be lost, we have to work at keeping our faith in Christ.

Works may not save me... But not completely Christ's mission in my life, ignoring is presence that is found in the people I meet, My in-action,my non-Works, will distance me from Christ.

I think it was St. Augustine who said once "Love and do what you like" Meaning if you truly love Christ there is only 1 path to follow and the sets of Choices that are open to you to do what you like are limited to those of a Disciple loving Christ.

So in the same tone I could say.. "Have faith and do what you like"

wolfsbane

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

How though can you fall from something that you never in? St Paul also speaks very highly of their past conduct and addresses them in a very hopeful manner which is filled with fatherly concern.

You can fall from your profession. You can appear to all the world as a true believer, but end up repudiating the faith. Paul's hope for them was based on their past works being evidence of genuine faith - but he knew some may have been shamming, like Judas. None of the other disciples though of Judas when Christ said one of them would betray Him. They even considered it more likely it was themselves.

So Paul is being fatherly toward the genuine among them, without knowing exactly who that included.

*******************************************************************
James 3:19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!

wolfsbane

alex73 wrote: »

I really Fail to see how the Concept of Salvation in the Protestant Church's is Different to the Catholic Church. I believe in Christ, I accept his commandments and Life a Christian life completely his will and mission in my life? faith is an act of will, if we believe we follow Christ. Is there any other path to Christ?

Catholicism and Protestantism agree on the necessity of faith in Christ. But Protestantism says that when one exercises true faith, one is immediately justified before God - saved. Catholicism says justification has merely begun, and that good works add to that to give a total that merits justification. At least that is my reading of the RCC doctrine.

Protestantism says that faith, if it is genuine, will produce good works in a changed life, but that such works do not add to their justification. They prove justification, not produce it.

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Ephesians 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

wolfsbane

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

Some Roman Catholics would rightly say it depends on God's Grace and mercy, and would say so correctly. Thomas Aquinas is not that far removed on this issue from Calvin.

Stop taking gimmebroadband seriously and his spamming of this forum.

I'm glad to hear some Catholics agree with this fundamental of the gospel. I've heard of many myself. But is it the official RCC teaching? Not as far as I can tell.

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Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

alex73

wolfsbane wrote: »

Catholicism and Protestantism agree on the necessity of faith in Christ. But Protestantism says that when one exercises true faith, one is immediately justified before God - saved. Catholicism says justification has merely begun, and that good works add to that to give a total that merits justification. At least that is my reading of the RCC doctrine.

Protestantism says that faith, if it is genuine, will produce good works in a changed life, but that such works do not add to their justification. They prove justification, not produce it.

Sorry I don't understand the Protestant Argument. A Christians on earth on our journey towards God but not yet in the presence of God, Don't we have a mission that God wants us to complete, a mission that we freely choose to accept? His work.

You use the words "Exercises true Faith".. When the Disciples believed in Christ it spurred them to complete his mission.... The works we do born of Faith are needed for our salvation.

Works are not needed for our salvation, but our salvation is contingent on completing that Christ has laid out on the path he has chosen for me in my life. We have faith and walk in his shadow and no in the shadow of the world and its trappings.

So I have Faith in Christ, my Lord, True God, In what he says in the Gospels. And I follow him, only him as best I can.

Are we Catholics/Protestants getting tied up in words? Salvation is a process that begins when a person first becomes a Christian, continues through that person's life, and is completed when one stands before Christ in judgement. How can I appear before God and not have completed the work he gave me to complete on the path he laid out for me?


Is it that in your view the works you do and found inside your faith while you see the works Catholics to as an element of their faith.

No works are going to save anyone... We can't work our way into heaven, not matter how much we do. Its only doing what Christ asked to do, answering his call in Faith that saves us.

Atleast this is what I was Taught.

gimmebroadband

Paul's clear teaching is that all will be judged ACCORDING TO THEIR DEEDS, NOT THEIR "FAITH ALONE IN JESUS"! Romans 2:6

santing

I get the feeling we don't even agree on what Salvation actually means or establishes.... And then we are fighting over the circumstances?

My strawhorse definition (Based on Heb 2, which I preached on yesterday) - Salvation is

• Seeing everything submitted to Christ, starting with my life now, and ultimately everything else at his coming
• Being brought as Sons (and Daughters) into glory - "practicing" sonship, becoming more and more like Christ

Forgiveness of sins is an absolute "must have" in order to participate in any of these two.

antiskeptic

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

I would advise you to steer clear of modern translations. I will start a thread on this in time.

One thing I will credit the Free Ps with is sticking to the KJV. And one thing I will curse the RCC with is abandoning the Douay Rheims.

When it comes to the broad lines of the points raised, I don't think things depend on a specific translated word this way or that.

The doctrine of salvation as a once off / one directional / irreversible event is too firmly and extensively established for it to be dismantled by a proof verse scattered here and there.

When you examine those proof verses you inevitably find reason to query. You inevitably find the loss of salvation notion being imported into the text.

Cybercelesta

I believe that only those who are in Heaven and those who are being purified in Purgatory are the ones that are saved for certain, they can never lose it. OTOH the rest of us must work our way to salvation by keeping the commandments, and availing of the Sacraments that Jesus gave us should we fall into sin.

antiskeptic

Cybercelesta wrote: »

I believe that only those who are in Heaven and those who are being purified in Purgatory are the ones that are saved for certain, they can never lose it. OTOH the rest of us must work our way to salvation by keeping the commandments, and availing of the Sacraments that Jesus gave us should we fall into sin.

Climbing a stairway to heaven as it were..

santing

gimmebroadband wrote: »

Paul's clear teaching is that all will be judged ACCORDING TO THEIR DEEDS, NOT THEIR "FAITH ALONE IN JESUS"! Romans 2:6

Which is further explained in

For God shows no partiality. For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. (Rom 2:11-12 ESV)

and

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (Rom 3:23 ESV)

And compare with the scene of the last judgement:

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. (Rev 20:12 ESV)

If you read this passage carefully you will see that all standing there will be judged (condemned) according to their deeds. The book of life is the "get out of jail free" book here ... but no-one standing before the throne here will have his/her name listed.

gimmebroadband

Salvation is Free. In Revelations, the just are rewarded with ETERNAL LIFE.

Come you blessed of my father etc.. they were rewarded for their faith and good deeds, they fed the hungry, clothed the naked, visited those who were sick and in prison. Matt 25:34

In the final judgement ALL are judged together, and He will then seperate the sheep from the goats!

wolfsbane

alex73 said:

Sorry I don't understand the Protestant Argument. A Christians on earth on our journey towards God but not yet in the presence of God, Don't we have a mission that God wants us to complete, a mission that we freely choose to accept? His work.

True Christians will choose to do His work. They may falter and stumble - but God will pick them up again. They are His sheep and He will not lose any of them:
John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

You use the words "Exercises true Faith".. When the Disciples believed in Christ it spurred them to complete his mission.... The works we do born of Faith are needed for our salvation.

Works are not needed for our salvation, but our salvation is contingent on completing that Christ has laid out on the path he has chosen for me in my life. We have faith and walk in his shadow and no in the shadow of the world and its trappings.

The works do not merit our salvation, they only display it. Yes, if a man lives a life without works following his profession of faith, he will not be saved. Why? Because he did not earn enough merit by his works? No. Because a real Christian has real faith, and real faith always produces good works. The tree is known by its fruit - but the fruit does not make it a good tree, for it is a good tree before it produces good fruit.

So I have Faith in Christ, my Lord, True God, In what he says in the Gospels. And I follow him, only him as best I can.

That's what every true Christian does.

Are we Catholics/Protestants getting tied up in words? Salvation is a process that begins when a person first becomes a Christian, continues through that person's life, and is completed when one stands before Christ in judgement. How can I appear before God and not have completed the work he gave me to complete on the path he laid out for me?

Salvation is both an event and a process. The moment of conversion moves one from the unsaved category to the saved category. Instantly. But the process continues and is completed at the resurrection. It is one whole - cannot change back and forth between saved, unsaved, saved, etc. Once you're saved, you are saved and will stay so.

The confusion comes when we make Justification = Salvation. Salvation includes Justification, but is more than it. So Paul says:
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Each of these is a part of the process of salvation. An unbreakable chain, the one link binding to the next. Justification is just one part of the chain of salvation.

Is it that in your view the works you do and found inside your faith while you see the works Catholics to as an element of their faith.

Not sure what you are saying. I see the works I do as flowing from my new nature, but not being added to Christ's merits that gained my salvation.

No works are going to save anyone... We can't work our way into heaven, not matter how much we do. Its only doing what Christ asked to do, answering his call in Faith that saves us.

This is where the difficulty in understanding lies. If you mean that abiding in the new life of faith and good works ends in salvation - I completely agree.

But if you mean my faith and good works are in fact my bit of the merit that deserves salvation, being added to Christ's bit - then I say that both my faith and good works are not mine at all, but God's gift to me. He chose me, called me, gave me a new heart that was willing to obey His call, justified me, sanctifies me and will eventually glorify me.

All of His grace, none of my merit.

Atleast this is what I was Taught.

Thanks for your efforts to explain your understanding. I think we may be getting a clearer picture of what each other believes. Please continue to probe. It would be good if we can be sure we are not misunderstanding each other - even if we end up disagreeing on what Scripture actually says.

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Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

wolfsbane

gimmebroadband wrote: »

Salvation is Free. In Revelations, the just are rewarded with ETERNAL LIFE.

Come you blessed of my father etc.. they were rewarded for their faith and good deeds, they fed the hungry, clothed the naked, visited those who were sick and in prison. Matt 25:34

In the final judgement ALL are judged together, and He will then seperate the sheep from the goats!

So Christ's atonement is not enough to merit our salvation? We have to add to it our faith and good works?

No, faith and good works merit glorious rewards in heaven - but not salvation. They are the marks of the true believer, how the true believer is separated from the false believer, as well as the open unbeliever.

Only Christ's sufferings merit eternal life for us.

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1 John 5:11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

santing

gimmebroadband wrote: »

Salvation is Free. In Revelations, the just are rewarded with ETERNAL LIFE.

Come you blessed of my father etc.. they were rewarded for their faith and good deeds, they fed the hungry, clothed the naked, visited those who were sick and in prison. Matt 25:34

In the final judgement ALL are judged together, and He will then seperate the sheep from the goats!

Why do you think the picture of "sheep" and "goats" is used, why not one animal type so all are treated equal? The poor "goats" - none of them ever did good! And the sheep, they couldn't help being good! Maybe the sheep have been afraid that they would turn into goats if they didn't enough good works, but we know that that would never happen, would it? Could it be that the "sheep" were already "destined" for eternal life, and did express that with "good works"?

alex73

@ wolfsbane Post 26

I think honest Catholics and Honest Protestants look at Redemption and Salvation from out different points of Theological optics.

No matter how we look at it, being a Christian,, being a follower of Christ, is not a static choice, its a process that involves faith and our will to follow him.

TravelJunkie

alex73 wrote: »

Sorry I don't understand the Protestant Argument. A Christians on earth on our journey towards God but not yet in the presence of God, Don't we have a mission that God wants us to complete, a mission that we freely choose to accept? His work.

You use the words "Exercises true Faith".. When the Disciples believed in Christ it spurred them to complete his mission.... The works we do born of Faith are needed for our salvation.

Works are not needed for our salvation, but our salvation is contingent on completing that Christ has laid out on the path he has chosen for me in my life. We have faith and walk in his shadow and no in the shadow of the world and its trappings.

So I have Faith in Christ, my Lord, True God, In what he says in the Gospels. And I follow him, only him as best I can.

Are we Catholics/Protestants getting tied up in words? Salvation is a process that begins when a person first becomes a Christian, continues through that person's life, and is completed when one stands before Christ in judgement. How can I appear before God and not have completed the work he gave me to complete on the path he laid out for me?


Is it that in your view the works you do and found inside your faith while you see the works Catholics to as an element of their faith.

No works are going to save anyone... We can't work our way into heaven, not matter how much we do. Its only doing what Christ asked to do, answering his call in Faith that saves us.

Atleast this is what I was Taught.

You believe in Jesus and you call him Lord, that is super. I don't think anyone is going to fault you that. We as Christians have to ask ourselves a few things though. Do we have a personal relationship with Christ? Do we talk to him daily and is he our support?

Then, in terms of good works. Remember, say we do serve in the community, do we feel good about it? Because if we feel good about it, and perhaps we have received praise or recognition for it by other church member or whatever, then we have received our reward here. And not in heaven.

Our attitude should be that we are Christs, and we love Christ so much that we can't help but have compassion for others and we want to help them, then it is Christ, not us. But it shouldn't be an effort, more of a result of the love.

We all know the scripture, Matthew 7: 21 - 27 '21
"Not everyone who calls me "Lord, Lord' will enter the Kingdom of heaven, but only those who do what my Father in heaven wants them to do. 22 When the Judgment Day comes, many will say to me, "Lord, Lord! In your name we spoke God's message, by your name we drove out many demons and performed many miracles!' 23 Then I will say to them, "I never knew you. Get away from me, you wicked people!' 24 "So then, anyone who hears these words of mine and obeys them is like a wise man who built his house on rock. 25 The rain poured down, the rivers flooded over, and the wind blew hard against that house. But it did not fall, because it was built on rock. 26 "But anyone who hears these words of mine and does not obey them is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain poured down, the rivers flooded over, the wind blew hard against that house, and it fell. And what a terrible fall that was!"

So we can see that doing works is fine, but knowing Christ personally and keeping up our relationship with him is more important.

Cybercelesta

To me a personal relationship with Jesus, is not only through prayer, but with the Sacraments! I as a Catholic am joined more intimately with Jesus who is present, Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Blessed Eucharist, He in me and I in Him!

hinault

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

I was going to post this in the Catholic/Protestant debate but have decided not to as this article is bound to annoy both the Roman Catholics and Evangelicals. It does though stick to what the Scriptures say and doesnt try to force it into a tight box constructed using some verses "taken to a logical conclusion" to the point that they contradict other ones, which is something I feel that both Roman Catholics and Evangelicals can be guilty of.

http://www.orlutheran.com/html/once.html

"There are two sets of Bible passages that speak of falling away. First, there are those which directly warn against such a thing happening to believers.
One example is Galatians 5:4: 'You are separated from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by Law, you have fallen from grace." Paul had taught the true Gospel to the Galatians. They had joyfully received that Gospel and became Christians, not by appearance but in actuality. They were justified by faith, received the Holy Spirit, and miracles were performed in their midst (See Galatians 3:1-5). They were Christians in every sense of the word. But to these who had once been Christians Paul now says, "You have fallen from grace " and 'you are separated from Christ" if you attempt to be justified by the Law. What else can this mean but that they who had been true believers were in danger of falling away, of no longer being Christians. If falling away permanently is an impossibility then Paul's words have no meaning and his very real concern is misplaced.
A second example is Luke 8:13. In this passage Jesus is explaining the meaning of the Parable of the Sower, specifically the meaning of the second soil. Our Lord says, "But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the Word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away." Here Jesus says, unmistakably, that it is possible for someone to receive the Gospel, truly believe for a while, but then fall away, because of temptation. To those who try to say that such people were never really Christian, Jesus words disagree. He says in clear words, that they 'believe for a while " and then 'fall away ". One cannot fall away (the Greek Word here is "aphistemi") from something that one wasn't truly a part of to begin with.
That you may understand that these passages are not isolated occurrences read also the following passages and the context which surrounds each: I Corinthians 10:12; 1 Timothy 1:18-20; Hebrews 4:11; Hebrews 12:15; 2 Peter 3:17."

Putting it as simply and politely as I can, neither Luther or his denominations doctrine should be of any interest to Roman Catholics.

Luther was a heretic and his denominations doctrine is heresy.

alex73

TravelJunkie wrote: »

You believe in Jesus and you call him Lord, that is super. I don't think anyone is going to fault you that. We as Christians have to ask ourselves a few things though. Do we have a personal relationship with Christ? Do we talk to him daily and is he our support?

Then, in terms of good works. Remember, say we do serve in the community, do we feel good about it? Because if we feel good about it, and perhaps we have received praise or recognition for it by other church member or whatever, then we have received our reward here. And not in heaven.

Our attitude should be that we are Christs, and we love Christ so much that we can't help but have compassion for others and we want to help them, then it is Christ, not us. But it shouldn't be an effort, more of a result of the love.

So we can see that doing works is fine, but knowing Christ personally and keeping up our relationship with him is more important.

You are confusing Christian Works with pride. A Christian, A Catholic is called to follow Christ and is tasked to completing his mission. If I am only doing good works to in flat my pride then its a sin.


Knowing Christ and doing what he wants of us in our life is one and the same thing, Our interaction with Christ is not a solitary personal one, its an ongoing active relationship, We can never really have a true interrelationship with Christ and ignore those around us. I love Christ,,, But I don't have time to spend with my daughter because I have to go to a Match or to the Pub....Our relationship with Christ is manifested in how we follow him.. Our Prayer, Our worship of him in the Real presence in the Eurcharist, our commitment to our family or those who Christ puts in our Path.

If you are really a Christian then acting and working like a Christian will be second Nature, because if we really Love Christ we will do what he wants and this transforms our life.

This is what I as a Catholic have been taught. Doing Christian works and Following Christ, Knowing Christ are all part and parcel, parallel to being a Christian. You can't pray on a Sunday to be Saved and ignore the needy on a Monday because you don't have time.

antiskeptic

alex73 wrote: »

You can't pray on a Sunday to be Saved and ignore the needy on a Monday because you don't have time.

I don't see how that's always avoidable. We're sinners and a characteristic of sin is that we act selfishly at times. And so we will rise on some Mondays and not give a moments thought to the needy - because our focus is on ourselves.

And so the question turns to what occurs on account of our failure to love Christ at all times. In 'Protestantism' we are forgiven these transgressions and our salvation is never tied in with them. In Catholicism, we are forgiven-perhaps: our transgressions may count towards our final salvation.

That's what such discussions boil down to when you strip back the ecumenical language. Work for your salvation or no. Salvation dependent on how much you love/follow/obey Christ .. or not.



(p.s. I'm interested in your/fellow Catholics response to the outstanding query down at the Protestant/Catholic thread)

PatricaMcKay2

wolfsbane wrote: »

I'm glad to hear some Catholics agree with this fundamental of the gospel. I've heard of many myself. But is it the official RCC teaching? Not as far as I can tell.

*******************************************************************
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

I also find the Canons of Council of Trent troubling when compared to the Gospel, however while what I said is not true of the Jesuits and most Roman Catholics here it was true historically of the Dominicians and the Francisicans. Roman Catholicism is far from being as homogenous as a lot of Protestants and indeed Roman Catholics, particularly the worst type of RC believe.

alex73

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

I also find the Canons of Council of Trent troubling when compared to the Gospel, however while what I said is not true of the Jesuits and most Roman Catholics here it was true historically of the Dominicians and the Francisicans. Roman Catholicism is far from being as homogenous as a lot of Protestants and indeed Roman Catholics, particularly the worst type of RC believe.

What is not homogeneous about Catholicism?

wolfsbane

alex73 wrote: »

@ wolfsbane Post 26

I think honest Catholics and Honest Protestants look at Redemption and Salvation from out different points of Theological optics.

No matter how we look at it, being a Christian,, being a follower of Christ, is not a static choice, its a process that involves faith and our will to follow him.

I agree, it is not a static choice, but one that continues forever. I married my wife March 30, 1974 - a deliberate choice to be united to her. That choice continues. I could choose to divorce her today. But it doesn't mean I'm only married to her when one of us dies and can no longer violate our covenant. We are married right now.

The difference for the relationship with God is that HE is able to keep me from divorcing Him, able to keep evil from ruling my heart. In fact, it was He who gave me the heart to love Him in the first place. He won't take that away.

*********************************************************************
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

santing

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

I also find the Canons of Council of Trent troubling

Which non RC wouldn't - we are clearly marked out as "Anathema"
Troubling is that this was the last doctrinal Council of the RC, and seeing it is quoted many times in the "New Catechism" it is still official doctrine.

alex73

wolfsbane wrote: »

The difference for the relationship with God is that HE is able to keep me from divorcing Him, able to keep evil from ruling my heart. In fact, it was He who gave me the heart to love Him in the first place. He won't take that away.

God maybe able to keep you from divorcing him, he may be able to give you the strength to follow him. But our free will is the centre of our love and Faith in Christ. Otherwise are we talking about man being predestined by God to be saved or condemned?

santing

alex73 wrote: »

God maybe able to keep you from divorcing him, he may be able to give you the strength to follow him. But our free will is the centre of our love and Faith in Christ. Otherwise are we talking about man being predestined by God to be saved or condemned?

By becoming a Christian I believe that we acknowledge that our will (even in the best occasions) does not perform God's righteousness. It is God who works in us to will and to act according to His good purpose. (Phil 2:13)

Compare this with following verses:

(Heb 7:24,26 [NIV])
but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. Therefore he is able to save completely [lit: forever] those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. Such a high priest meets our need--one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens.

(Heb 13:20,21 [NIV])
May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

(Jude 1:24,25 [NIV])
To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy-- to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

PatricaMcKay2

santing wrote: »

By becoming a Christian I believe that we acknowledge that our will (even in the best occasions) does not perform God's righteousness. It is God who works in us to will and to act according to His good purpose. (Phil 2:13)

Compare this with following verses:

Santing I know my own nature, and I know God's righteousness, so I fully realize that I am only able to preform anything at all decent in His sight through His Grace. Yet I also know that I am able to resist the Holy Spirit.

PatricaMcKay2

wolfsbane wrote: »

The difference for the relationship with God is that HE is able to keep me from divorcing Him, able to keep evil from ruling my heart. In fact, it was He who gave me the heart to love Him in the first place. He won't take that away.

*********************************************************************
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

By nature like the rest of us you are a child of wrath, and it is only God's unmerited Energy that keeps Faith in your heart, no one deserves to be saved and the glory of salvation belong to Him alone...Yet the righteous man falls seven times a day, is that God's doing? Perish the thought. People can and do commit apostasy. Though He doesnt give everybody the same amount of Grace, He does will that all will be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth, however He is beyond time and space and sees everything that will ever unfold in an eternal Now. Sometimes the withdrawal of Grace is merciful...Trye and Sidon and all that.

santing

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

Santing I know my own nature, and I know God's righteousness, so I fully realize that I am only able to preform anything at all decent in His sight through His Grace. Yet I also know that I am able to resist the Holy Spirit.

I think that matches my own experience although ... the only time we read about "resisting the Holy Spirit" it is said to unbelieving people.
We are admonished not to put out the Spirit's fire (1 Thess 5:19) and

(Eph 4:30 [NIV]) do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

But even when I do grieve the Holy Spirit, it doesn't affect the "seal" that God made on my life. It certainly will affect my Christian walk and the joy (enjoyment) of the Spirit though!

PatricaMcKay2

hinault wrote: »

Putting it as simply and politely as I can, neither Luther or his denominations doctrine should be of any interest to Roman Catholics.

Luther was a heretic and his denominations doctrine is heresy.

So why did you feel a need to comment?

The fact of Luther's importance to western civilization should be ignored by RCs? Great stuff. Lets ignore everything that isnt rubber stamped by the Bishops and we will have a wonderful understand of all and everything.

santing

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

By nature like the rest of us you are a child of wrath, and

No! By nature we were a child of wrath... We are now beloved children of God - through His grace!

(Eph 2:3-5 [NIV]) Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.

PatricaMcKay2

santing wrote: »

No! By nature we were a child of wrath... We are now beloved children of God - through His grace!

You are right, but still it is only through His Grace, and thats something we have no right to and should always be appreciative of.

The Quadratic Equation

antiskeptic wrote: »

In the Catholic church, your salvation is centrally dependent on how you perform w.r.t. God's commandments.

It's not central at all, Christ delivers salvation, not works, but if you truly accept him you will try to keep his commandments and teachings, instead of pretending they can be ignored or circumvented with sophistry.

antiskeptic wrote: »

In the Protestant church your salvation isn't dependent on your performance.

Hence people like Billy Wright claimed to be saved, while they "cleansed" the six counties from Catholics

PatricaMcKay2

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Hence people like Billy Wright claimed to be saved, while they "cleansed" the six counties from Catholics

Link?

A lot of northern Evangelicals are very opposed to alcholol, while Loyalists quaff Buckfast, a lot of northern Evangelicals are militantly apolictical. As much as I disagree with them about a lot northern Evangelicals are often the most sweet and decent people you will find in this country.

PatricaMcKay2

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Hence people like Billy Wright claimed to be saved, while they "cleansed" the six counties from Catholics

The more I think about the more disgusting that comment becomes. Members of my family were murdered by Billy Wright or by his orders. Antiskeptic and Santing are from southern RC backgrounds who have come to believe what they believe because they see it as the truth, and they do believe a lot of truth, its clear from their posts that their is no psuedo-ethnic hatred nonsense going on...But I could see a lot that is sick implied in that post.

It was a stupid, evil comment and you should take it back.

The Quadratic Equation

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

Link?

A lot of northern Evangelicals are very opposed to alcholol, while Loyalists quaff Buckfast, a lot of northern Evangelicals are militantly apolictical. As much as I disagree with them about a lot northern Evangelicals are often the most sweet and decent people you will find in this country.

http://www.irish-association.org/papers/stevebruce11_oct03.asp

Of course most evangenicals are peaceful people (if you ignore the rabid anti-Catholicism which helped fuel the troubles). Wright, a Prodestant preacher, believed he could make peace with God again AFTER he cleansed the place. Sure the commandments of God are all irelevant when your "saved"

PatricaMcKay2

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Of course most evangenicals are peaceful people (if you ignore the rabid anti-Catholicism which helped fuel the troubles). Wright, a Prodestant preacher, believed he could make peace with God again AFTER he cleansed the place. Sure the commandments of God are all irelevant when your "saved"

http://www.irish-association.org/papers/stevebruce11_oct03.asp

There is a difference between religiousity and Religion.

You can spot the difference on both sides in the north a mile off.