Luas ticket machine fault, fare €45

sean29

Hi All,

When I was buying a return ticket the coins got stuck in the machine (3.30) and I had to travel without a ticket. On my way back I got fined 45 euro.

I appealed saying that I lost my money in the machine but my appeal was rejected. It only stated 'the fare stands still as you were unable to produce a valid ticket.

I appealed again saying to check reports/ cameras from that morning. Today I received an e-mail saying:

I am in receipt of your latest email and wish to advise you that our daily reporting system was checked and there was no report recorded for a faulty ticket vending machine (TVM). Also that our Appeals Committee considered your appeal at a recent meeting and it was unanimously decided that your appeal was unsuccessful as you were unable to produce a valid ticket while travelling on Luas. In these circumstances your standard Fare notice remains in place and must be paid within 14 days. This now completes the appeals procedure and no further correspondence on the matter will be entered into

Should I wait for them to bring me to the court or is there some other institution I could go into?

BrianD

I'd stay out of the courts if you can.

You are kind of goosed that you didn't buy another ticket before embarking on your return leg.

You should have done this and then you'd only be bringing up the matter of a 3.30 euro refund for the ticket that wasn't issued. Now you are at 45e with the prospect of going to court.

Write to them again with exact timings and be prepared to pay the 45e to save yourself the grief.

myself69

The best thing you can do is stay out of the courts. Best advice anyone can give you.

schemingbohemia

sean29 wrote: »

Hi All,

When I was buying a return ticket the coins got stuck in the machine (3.30) and I had to travel without a ticket. On my way back I got fined 45 euro.

I appealed saying that I lost my money in the machine but my appeal was rejected. It only stated 'the fare stands still as you were unable to produce a valid ticket.

I appealed again saying to check reports/ cameras from that morning. Today I received an e-mail saying:

I am in receipt of your latest email and wish to advise you that our daily reporting system was checked and there was no report recorded for a faulty ticket vending machine (TVM). Also that our Appeals Committee considered your appeal at a recent meeting and it was unanimously decided that your appeal was unsuccessful as you were unable to produce a valid ticket while travelling on Luas. In these circumstances your standard Fare notice remains in place and must be paid within 14 days. This now completes the appeals procedure and no further correspondence on the matter will be entered into

Should I wait for them to bring me to the court or is there some other institution I could go into?

The part in bold is not correct, you chose to travel without a ticket. There are no stations with only 1 ticket machine.

sean29

Thanks everyone for quick replies. According to them there was no report of that machine being faulty which is true as at the time of buying the ticket the screen was normal, just all the coins were stuck. I asked them to check again reports and times of transactions to see a big gap between my transaction and one after. I'll post their reply as soon as I get it.

@schemingbohemia: what if all the only money I had was 3.30?

myself69

sean29 wrote: »

@schemingbohemia: what if all the only money I had was 3.30?

Before you traveled, you should have rang Luas Customer Care and told them the machine was faulty and your money was stuck.

Losty Dublin

sean29 wrote: »

Thanks everyone for quick replies. According to them there was no report of that machine being faulty which is true as at the time of buying the ticket the screen was normal, just all the coins were stuck. I asked them to check again reports and times of transactions to see a big gap between my transaction and one after. I'll post their reply as soon as I get it.

@schemingbohemia: what if all the only money I had was 3.30?

A few months ago, I went to Superquinn for my weekly shop, went around and loaded up the trolley only to find out at the till that I had left my cash and laser card at home. They didn't let me come back and pay the week after If you have no means to get a ticket and if you chose to travel without one then unforturnately you can't travel on the Luas and you were liable for the charge, sorry to say.

As an aside, did you report the machine ate up your coins after using it?

Run_to_da_hills

I thought that there was always people availible to help you with difficulties with these machines. They usually wear a tracksuit uniform and are more popular along the red line.

sean29

@myself69 & @Losty Dublin:
I tried to report that but it was 5:30 in the morning and the lines are open from 7.

Anyways off to work now (on the luas;))

foggy_lad

sean29 wrote: »

@myself69 & @Losty Dublin:
I tried to report that but it was 5:30 in the morning and the lines are open from 7.

Anyways off to work now (on the luas;))

Use the emergengy button if it happens again. Also that last email sounds like them ignoring you and fobbing you off, they claim to have checked the machine fault reports but did they check CCTV? it is likely that some of the scumbags that plague the luas red line have found a way to block the coin slots and when your coins get stuck and you walk away they come along later and empty the coin chute into their pockets.

BrianD

foggy_lad wrote: »

Use the emergengy button ...

This is not an emergency. It's a ticket machine fault.

@schemingbohemia: what if all the only money I had was 3.30?

You either decide not to travel or travel knowing the risk of receiving a standard fare.

The problem is that you were caught on the return leg of the trip with no ticket. It's very difficult to justify this in an appeal.

Noo

Pay €41.70 for the fine.

charlemont

Pay them sweet f all.

angel01

Surely you had a bank card with you and could have withdrawn money for the return leg. You chose to get on a luas twice without paying and that to me is no excuse.

Del2005

sean29 wrote: »

@myself69 & @Losty Dublin:
I tried to report that but it was 5:30 in the morning and the lines are open from 7.

You could have mentioned it to the driver. They could have then contacted the correct people.

Or you could have called them at 7:01 and said that the machine at xxxx stop ate my money, can I go home for free? And they would have said no. So you needed to pay to go home or you could have worn a tracksuit with a bag of cans and got away with it.

Losty Dublin

Del2005 wrote: »

You could have mentioned it to the driver. They could have then contacted the correct people.

Luas drivers don't have any contact with passengers so that's a non option.

n97 mini

OP paid for a ticket and the machine refused to give him one.

Who's in the wrong here?

n97 mini

Losty Dublin wrote: »

A few months ago, I went to Superquinn for my weekly shop, went around and loaded up the trolley only to find out at the till that I had left my cash and laser card at home.

What's that got to do with anything?

Jehuty42

n97 mini wrote: »

OP paid for a ticket and the machine refused to give him one.

Who's in the wrong here?

OP, for not trying to get a ticket for his return journey.

I have no problem with clemency in the situation described above, since it's not really his fault. But in the evening he did not have a ticket when he could have gotten one(the machine wasn't faulty). That deserves a fine, not what happened in the morning.

n97 mini

Jehuty42 wrote: »

OP, for not trying to get a ticket for his return journey.

I have no problem with clemency in the situation described above, since it's not really his fault. But in the evening he did not have a ticket when he could have gotten one(the machine wasn't faulty). That deserves a fine, not what happened in the morning.

Considering the machine took his money for a return ticket, I think it's fair enough that he made a return journey.

JustAddWater

n97 mini wrote: »

What's that got to do with anything?

Nothing! ... When you take it out of context....

Losty Dublin wrote: »

A few months ago, I went to Superquinn for my weekly shop, went around and loaded up the trolley only to find out at the till that I had left my cash and laser card at home. They didn't let me come back and pay the week after

You don't need me to tell you what THAT means! It means, if you don't have money to pay for something, you can't just take it or use a service and then claim afterwards that it wasn't your fault. Maybe an explanation of the situation beforehand may gain some sympathy

Sorry to be harsh OP but if you had called them as early as physically possible they might have helped but if you only tell them there's a problem once you're caught without a fare, they can't really believe your story and you won't min any appeals. The first leg of your trip, it could be said there's an argument for that but definitely not the return trip and definitely not without prior calls to the luas offices to advise

I know the machine was taking coins but like others have said, that may not have thrown up any faults. It's a pain but live and learn

And definitely avoid the courts....

Jehuty42

n97 mini wrote: »

Considering the machine took his money for a return ticket, I think it's fair enough that he made a return journey.

I don't.

CiaranC

angel01 wrote: »

You chose to get on a luas twice without paying and that to me is no excuse.

OP did pay.

Jehuty42

CiaranC wrote: »

OP did pay.

His ticket is the proof of that, and seeing as he doesn't have one.. to play devil's advocate.

I'm frankly inclined to believe that the machine was fine(as Veolia themselves are apparently saying, and they'd know infinitely better than any of us possibly could).

Aard

As others have said, avoid going to court at absolutely all costs. It's just not worth it. Pay the fine, and if you're still inclined to recoup the dosh then do it after that. At least you won't have them chasing you -- you'll be chasing them.

But tbh OP, you didn't buy a €1.70 fare on the way home. You also made no attempt to rectify the situation until the ticket-checker found you. It looks bad for you. Seeing as you're going all legal on this one, you would be advised that "legally" you don't really have a leg to stand on. You can't exactly twist Veolia's arm into going into *their* CCTV footage to prove that *you* don't owe them money. You don't have any proof whatsoever to back up your claim, and they aren't gonna shoot themselves in the foot by giving it to you. The law does not always mean justice.

the groutch

OP doesnt even have a toe to stand on, on the return journey he chose not to pay for a ticket, despite the ticket machine(s) being fully operational.

n97 mini

Jehuty42 wrote: »

I'm frankly inclined to believe that the machine was fine(as Veolia themselves are apparently saying, and they'd know infinitely better than any of us possibly could).

Why do you think it was fine when the OP said it wasn't? He was there at the time. You weren't and neither was anyone from Veolia.

n97 mini

JustAddWater wrote: »

Nothing! ... When you take it out of context....

The story is out of context. OP had the machine take his money. The irrelevant story is about leaving money and cards at home. Not comparable.

Losty Dublin

n97 mini wrote: »

Why do you think it was fine when the OP said it wasn't? He was there at the time. You weren't and neither was anyone from Veolia.

What about the second unticketed journey OP took?

n97 mini

Losty Dublin wrote: »

What about the second unticketed journey OP took?

Return or not it doesn't change the fact that he paid for the journey and the machine refused to issue a ticket.

OP paid for return, it doesn't matter what direction he was going in.

Losty Dublin

n97 mini wrote: »

The story is out of context. OP had the machine take his money. The irrelevant story is about leaving money and cards at home. Not comparable.

The story wasn't out of context except maybe to your eyes and interest. OP asked what would happen on the Luas if he hadn't any money. I gave you a practical example of what a business renowned for customer service dealt with a customer who hadn't means to pay a bill at the time of asking

Losty Dublin

n97 mini wrote: »

Return or not it doesn't change the fact that he paid for the journey and the machine refused to issue a ticket.

OP paid for return, it doesn't matter what direction he was going in.

OP hadn't got a ticket to cover his journey regardless of if he paid for it or not.

Your ticket is your proof that a journey was paid for. Had OP got a ticket and as such proof he paid, yes or no?:)

n97 mini

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The story wasn't out of context

No, it was out of context. Forgetting your wallet in Superquinn is not the same as the Luas ticket machine stealing your money.

Losty Dublin wrote:

Your ticket is your proof that a journey was paid for.

You are absolutely right. However, not having a ticket is not proof you didn't pay, is it?:)

PseudoFamous

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Had OP got a ticket and as such proof he paid, yes or no?:)

He did not have a ticket, but I would consider CCTV footage as proof enough that he paid. People seldom go up to the ticket machine and put things other than money into the machine, ysee.

Keith186

Pay the €45 fine but make sure you get €45 of unpaid journeys afterwards.

Try get a free journey once a week you'll have your unjust fine paid for in 4 months or so.

Get a fake ID too and something with a fake address on it so if you do get caught you won't get fined.

If you honestly did pay for the ticket then its a matter of principle that you make sure you get even.

Losty Dublin

n97 mini wrote: »

No, it was out of context. Forgetting your wallet in Superquinn is not the same as the Luas ticket machine stealing your money.

Yes, the machine went out to steal his money :rolleyes:

n97 mini wrote: »

You are absolutely right. However, not having a ticket is not proof you didn't pay, is it?:)

Whatever idea you are trying to come up with here (And I doubt if you even know yourself), it doesn't escape the fact that OP hadn't got a ticket for either journey and deserved the fine levied onto him.

Losty Dublin

PseudoFamous wrote: »

He did not have a ticket, but I would consider CCTV footage as proof enough that he paid. People seldom go up to the ticket machine and put things other than money into the machine, ysee.

All the CCTV will show is somebody at the machine pressing buttons. Assuming the footage is kept by the time it comes to appeal, that is.

Losty Dublin

Keith186 wrote: »

Get a fake ID too and something with a fake address on it so if you do get caught you won't get fined..

What happens you when they ask for proper ID and not the ones they sell in head shops or Viz?:D

Keith186

Losty D he didn't have a ticket because the machine didn't give him one.

Look at it from the customers POV, no way in hell I'd go and pay for another ticket I've already paid for!

If you paid for shopping and didn't get a receipt and security stopped you leaving the store and accused you of stealing how would you feel?

N97 is correct with his/her point about no ticket doesn't prove that he didn't pay for one.

PseudoFamous

Losty Dublin wrote: »

What happens you when they ask for proper ID and not the ones they sell in head shops or Viz?:D

You beat feet, that's what you do.

Losty Dublin

Keith186 wrote: »

Losty D he didn't have a ticket because the machine didn't give him one.

Look at it from the customers POV, no way in hell I'd go and pay for another ticket I've already paid for!

If you paid for shopping and didn't get a receipt and security stopped you leaving the store and accused you of stealing how would you feel?

N97 is correct with his/her point about no ticket doesn't prove that he didn't pay for one.

Keith, nobody is disputing that the machine wasn't able to give him a ticket. However you can't travel without a ticket, he didn't go to the other machine (All stations have at least two, some more) and he took his chances and was caught later in the day when he could have bought a ticket or contacted Luas to get his money back. The only proof the inspectors have that you paid your fare and that you have the right to travel is by you having a ticket; it's not onus for passenger to meet in all honesty, is it?

n97 mini

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Yes, the machine went out to steal his money :rolleyes:

Don't be silly.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Whatever idea you are trying to come up with here (And I doubt if you even know yourself), it doesn't escape the fact that OP hadn't got a ticket for either journey and deserved the fine levied onto him.

Hadn't got a ticket, sure. But he paid for them, so why should he be fined? Is this about justice or a "told you so" attitude from you?

Keith186

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Keith, nobody is disputing that the machine wasn't able to give him a ticket. However you can't travel without a ticket

The machine can't take his money and not give him a ticket and then the inspector fine him for the privilege to top it off!

He's looking for anyway to correct the situation now, not to be told put up or shut up.

If his story is true then it's completely unjust that he has to pay the fine, no matter what way you look at it.

Victor

Keith186 wrote: »

Pay the €45 fine but make sure you get €45 of unpaid journeys afterwards.

Try get a free journey once a week you'll have your unjust fine paid for in 4 months or so.

Get a fake ID too and something with a fake address on it so if you do get caught you won't get fined.

If you honestly did pay for the ticket then its a matter of principle that you make sure you get even.

Its 0715 and my sarcasm detector isn't working at the moment. However, advising people to take a legally perilous route is unacceptable.

d1975

there are 4 ticket machines at the Luas stop you could have used the other ones

the inspectors can be hearing your type of story every day "I did this" "I put Money in" "Nothing came out" etc...


Sorry for your troubles better pay the fine

BrianD

n97 mini wrote: »

Considering the machine took his money for a return ticket, I think it's fair enough that he made a return journey.

It's not because he hasn't got a valid ticket to travel and he knows that. By extension, I could apply the same logic if I lost my ticket or it was stolen. I have still paid for the travel even though I no longer have the ticket.

There has to be rules otherwise it is impossible to run public transport. The OP had two options - buy another ticket or travel with the possibility of receiving a standard fare.

There was also ample opportunity for him to avail of LUAS customer service by contacting them.

Keith186 wrote:

Pay the €45 fine but make sure you get €45 of unpaid journeys afterwards.

€45 is the standard fare unless you buy a ticket from a machine.

In all fairness, the OP was well aware of the risks when he boarded a tram for a second time without a ticket.

Instead of writing to Veolia for a refund of €3.30 he is now paying €45 and a possible court appearance.

Del2005

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Luas drivers don't have any contact with passengers so that's a non option.

They are not robots.

The OP was getting on a early morning tram, they could have entered at front and told the driver as they got on. It's a glass door and a conversation with a customer would be better then some stuff that gets in.

Or they could have called customer care as soon as it opened.

Losty Dublin

Del2005 wrote: »

They are not robots.

The OP was getting on a early morning tram, they could have entered at front and told the driver as they got on. It's a glass door and a conversation with a customer would be better then some stuff that gets in.

Or they could have called customer care as soon as it opened.

The driver is ther to do just that; drive. As it is, isn't there a sign on Luas cabs asking people not to contact the driver?

n97 mini

BrianD wrote: »

By extension, I could apply the same logic if I lost my ticket or it was stolen.

You couldn't as Veolia aren't responsible for you or for thieves.

Losty Dublin

n97 mini wrote: »

You couldn't as Veolia aren't responsible for you or for thieves.

\Well it's exactly the same principle that you are making; one of sure it's paid for and you just have to take me at my word on it

sean29

Thanks everyone for replies.

foggy_lad wrote: »

It is likely that some of the scumbags that plague the luas red line have found a way to block the coin slots and when your coins get stuck and you walk away they come along later and empty the coin chute into their pockets.

I thought that was not possible until this morning! I took the luas at 5.30 again and I overheard the driver talking on his 'walkie talkie' that the machine ate some bloke's money a second ago! How about that?

In the meantime still no answer for my 3rd e-mail.