Private Estate / Public place

Farmlife

Can my private housing estate that I pay private management fees for be covered on a summons as "a public place within the said district court area of Dublin metropolitan district" for the purpose of a car not having an nct?

TylerIE

rgugliel wrote: »

Can my private housing estate that I pay private management fees for be covered on a summons as "a public place within the said district court area of Dublin metropolitan district" for the purpose of a car not having an nct?

Road Traffic Act 1961

“public place” means any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge;

Is the housing estate behind coded gates, e.g. electric gates or are other people (non residents) able to just drive in ad lib?

coylemj

Not sure which act the NCT is covered under, can you quote the law you're alleged to be in breach of? It should be on the summons.

For example, if the local authority doesn't maintain the road then it is not a public road for the purposes of the Finance Acts so you couldn't be done for non-display of a tax disc but if the public have access with vehicles then it is a public place for the purposes of the Road Traffic Act 1961 so you could be done for driving licence and insurance.

ANSI

coylemj wrote: »

Not sure which act the NCT is covered under, can you quote the law you're alleged to be in breach of? It should be on the summons.

For example, if the local authority doesn't maintain the road then it is not a public road for the purposes of the Finance Acts so you couldn't be done for non-display of a tax disc but if the public have access with vehicles then it is a public place for the purposes of the Road Traffic Act 1961 so you could be done for driving licence and insurance.

could you not be done for no tax under road traffic act?

coylemj

ANSI wrote: »

could you not be done for no tax under road traffic act?

In the OP's case no. Paying your tax and displaying the disc both come under the Finance Act 1976 and the road has to be a public road meaning it has to be a road the maintenance for which is the responsibility of the local authority.

Same applies to parking your car in a shopping centre, the cops can do you for licence, insurance and drunk driving but not non-display of a tax disc.

Farmlife

no gates on the estate, management company maintain the estate. was stopped before i drove out, made general polite comment to gardai that the speed camera placed on the road of the estate was dangerously located.

She didn't like this comment, end result is

not displaying an NCT disc
not producing a NCT cert
not producing Insurance cert (i had insurance, disc in window)
not having insurance (as i didn't produce it they assume i don't have it)
driving with a phone in hand (wasn't driving, was talking to her)

Milk & Honey

Do members of the public drive into the estate? Are non residents with vehicles ordered out? Is there any commercial use in the estate whatsoever?

TylerIE

rgugliel wrote: »

no gates on the estate, management company maintain the estate. was stopped before i drove out, made general polite comment to gardai that the speed camera placed on the road of the estate was dangerously located.

She didn't like this comment, end result is

not displaying an NCT disc
not producing a NCT cert
not producing Insurance cert (i had insurance, disc in window)
not having insurance (as i didn't produce it they assume i don't have it)
driving with a phone in hand (wasn't driving, was talking to her)

The Garda obviously thought that a vehicle which was being driven without a Valid NCT was also unsafe.

I assume she asked you to produce your documents and you failed or refused.

Its an offence to hold a mobile phone while driving. Its rather odd that just at the moment when you stopped to speak to her you happened to have your phone just in your hand.

Im afraid kind sir that you need more than this forum, a solicitor would be in order.

0O7

Yes... its a public place under the road traffic act.

(iv) by the substitution for the definition of “public place” of the following definition:
“‘public place’ means—
(a) any public road, and
(b) any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge

Farmlife

No commercial use to the estate, there's parking for residents but its open up for the public to walk in

coylemj

rgugliel wrote: »

driving with a phone in hand (wasn't driving, was talking to her)

TylerIE wrote: »

Its an offence to hold a mobile phone while driving. Its rather odd that just at the moment when you stopped to speak to her you happened to have your phone just in your hand.

Wasn't going to make an issue of the phone but I agree with TylerIE, either you were driving while on the phone or were careless enough to lift the phone out of the cradle or off the passenger seat while talking to the Garda.

Or did it ring while you were talking to her and you answered it?

What you're telling us is that at no stage were you driving a moving car while on the phone so I'm surprised that she has summonsed you for that one.

Can you look at the summons for the NCT offences and tell us which law you're supposedly in breach of?

source

rgugliel wrote: »

no gates on the estate, management company maintain the estate. was stopped before i drove out, made general polite comment to gardai that the speed camera placed on the road of the estate was dangerously located.

She didn't like this comment, end result is

not displaying an NCT disc
not producing a NCT cert
not producing Insurance cert (i had insurance, disc in window)
not having insurance (as i didn't produce it they assume i don't have it)
driving with a phone in hand (wasn't driving, was talking to her)

So what you're saying is if you minded your own business and weren't trying to be smart you wouldn't have been stopped and would have gotten away with all of the above offences.

Not displaying a valid NCT disc, and not displaying a valid NCT cert is an offence.

Not producing an insurance cert is also an offence, the disc on the window simply says the end date of the policy, the policy number and the insurance company. The cert gives information on who is permitted to drive and under what circumstances. This is why you're asked to produce the cert.

The offence isn't driving while talking on the phone, it's driving while holding a mobile phone. You drove up to the Garda and had the mobile phone in your hand when you got there, some simple deduction says your were holding your phone while driving.

TylerIE

rgugliel wrote: »

no gates on the estate, management company maintain the estate. was stopped before i drove out, made general polite comment to gardai that the speed camera placed on the road of the estate was dangerously located.

She didn't like this comment, end result is

not displaying an NCT disc
not producing a NCT cert
not producing Insurance cert (i had insurance, disc in window)
not having insurance (as i didn't produce it they assume i don't have it)
driving with a phone in hand (wasn't driving, was talking to her)

Also you seem to be just worried about the NCT issue, your failure to produce insurance is itself an offence, even if you are fully insured.

If your engine was running, while talking to the Garda and you were simultaneously holding the phone, while the car was on the road, its not unforeseeable that the judge will uphold the summons.

I can also imagine some judges being particularly impressed with the circumstances in which the offences were detected if it arises in court, so a solicitor would be highly advised!

0O7

rgugliel wrote: »

No commercial use to the estate, there's parking for residents but its open up for the public to walk in

if there is no gates or is not a private dwelling / company then it is a public place in the view of the road traffic Act (more or less)

Go to your solicitor, tell him you want to contest the fact you had no NCT and were stopped in a house estate and you dont feel its a public place... he may just laugh at you tho

coylemj

0O7 wrote: »

Yes... its a public place under the road traffic act.

(iv) by the substitution for the definition of “public place” of the following definition:
“‘public place’ means—
(a) any public road, and
(b) any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge

I think given that there are no gates that it is a public place under the RTA.

Milk & Honey

The right of access by the public, must be the public at large. It is not sufficient that a section only of the public can access the car park. In a shopping centre for example any member of the public can drive in for the purpose of visiting the shops. It may be possible to argue that only residents and their invitees can drive in and park in the estate. In that case it would not be a public place.
It appears that the o/p had driven up to the exit from the estate and was stopped by the garda. He was probably stopped with the engine running, and so was driving. If the public place defence was to hold up he would be in the clear. There might be a chance with an easygoing judge.

0O7

coylemj wrote: »

I think given that there are no gates that it is a public place under the RTA.

public car parks - multi story etc have gate sand are a public place....

0O7

Milk & Honey wrote: »

The right of access by the public, must be the public at large. It is not sufficient that a section only of the public can access the car park. In a shopping centre for example any member of the public can drive in for the purpose of visiting the shops. It may be possible to argue that only residents and their invitees can drive in and park in the estate. In that case it would not be a public place.
It appears that the o/p had driven up to the exit from the estate and was stopped by the garda. He was probably stopped with the engine running, and so was driving. If the public place defence was to hold up he would be in the clear. There might be a chance with an easygoing judge.

No. its 100% a public place...

TylerIE

Milk & Honey wrote: »

The right of access by the public, must be the public at large. It is not sufficient that a section only of the public can access the car park. In a shopping centre for example any member of the public can drive in for the purpose of visiting the shops. It may be possible to argue that only residents and their invitees can drive in and park in the estate. In that case it would not be a public place.
It appears that the o/p had driven up to the exit from the estate and was stopped by the garda. He was probably stopped with the engine running, and so was driving. If the public place defence was to hold up he would be in the clear. There might be a chance with an easygoing judge.

OP if you choose to pursue this defense then please put your court date up. Id love to see it or at least read the newspapers report! I imagine utilizing such a defense would just seriously annoy a busy judge!

The OP wasnt stopped by the Garda either, it was the other way around, he approached the Garda.

coylemj

0O7 wrote: »

public car parks - multi story etc have gate sand are a public place....

That's not really relevant, we are talking about a private housing estate which if it had gates that restricted entry to cardholders or people with a entry code could not be considered a public place under the RTA while clearly a public car park (with or without a barrier) is a public place.

There isn't anybody claiming that his estate is not a public place under the RTA so I really don't see why we've gone off on this tangent.

Farmlife

i didn't say it in a rude way, but where the tripod was was dangerous and i just had to say something, paying for it now i know.

when i said it she let off a roar and asked for my driving licence, i saw the "road she was going down" so i got out of my car took a photo of where the tripod was on the road, with my phone, and when i was getting back in the car i was holding the phone

source

Milk & Honey wrote: »

The right of access by the public, must be the public at large. It is not sufficient that a section only of the public can access the car park. In a shopping centre for example any member of the public can drive in for the purpose of visiting the shops. It may be possible to argue that only residents and their invitees can drive in and park in the estate. In that case it would not be a public place.
It appears that the o/p had driven up to the exit from the estate and was stopped by the garda. He was probably stopped with the engine running, and so was driving. If the public place defence was to hold up he would be in the clear. There might be a chance with an easygoing judge.

A public place under the RTA is any place that a member of the public has access to with a vehicle whether by right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge.

Meaning that everything you posted above is completely wrong.

coylemj

rgugliel wrote: »

i didn't say it in a rude way, but where the tripod was was dangerous and i just had to say something, paying for it now i know.

when i said it she let off a roar and asked for my driving licence, i saw the "road she was going down" so i got out of my car took a photo of where the tripod was on the road, with my phone, and when i was getting back in the car i was holding the phone

Was the speed camera pointing in the opposite direction to you when you were driving out of the estate? You could report her for malicious prosecution because it sounds to me like she was looking for speeding cars and she flipped when you challenged her on the position of the camera so she threw the book at you.

You could either report her to the local Super and ask to have the charges withdrawn or take it up with the Garda Ombudsman.

PCPhoto

rgugliel wrote: »

no gates on the estate, management company maintain the estate. was stopped before i drove out, made general polite comment to gardai that the speed camera placed on the road of the estate was dangerously located.

She didn't like this comment, end result is

not displaying an NCT disc
not producing a NCT cert
not producing Insurance cert (i had insurance, disc in window)
not having insurance (as i didn't produce it they assume i don't have it)
driving with a phone in hand (wasn't driving, was talking to her)

when you encountered the Garda did she tell you that you had to produce documentation ? or did you get the court summons before you knew what was going on ?

My understanding of the law regarding mobile phones is that if its in your hand and the engine is on you are open to prosecution - but its simply the case of the word of a Garda versus your own.

if you goto court - make sure you get a solicitor - if possible take photos of the area to indicate where the Garda Camera was positioned (its possible they were on private grounds and thus making everything illegal - hugely embarrasing for them if they were - and the media got wind of it ahead of time...I can assist there if you need)

MagicSean

PCPhoto wrote: »

when you encountered the Garda did she tell you that you had to produce documentation ? or did you get the court summons before you knew what was going on ?

My understanding of the law regarding mobile phones is that if its in your hand and the engine is on you are open to prosecution - but its simply the case of the word of a Garda versus your own.

if you goto court - make sure you get a solicitor - if possible take photos of the area to indicate where the Garda Camera was positioned (its possible they were on private grounds and thus making everything illegal - hugely embarrasing for them if they were - and the media got wind of it ahead of time...I can assist there if you need)

How would it make everything illegal?

0O7

coylemj wrote: »

That's not really relevant, we are talking about a private housing estate which if it had gates that restricted entry to cardholders or people with a entry code could not be considered a public place under the RTA while clearly a public car park (with or without a barrier) is a public place.

There isn't anybody claiming that his estate is not a public place under the RTA so I really don't see why we've gone off on this tangent.

Sorry, you said that if it had no gates then its a public place....

public places can have gates too is all i was stating.

TylerIE

coylemj wrote: »

Was the speed camera pointing in the opposite direction to you when you were driving out of the estate? You could report her for malicious prosecution because it sounds to me like she was looking for speeding cars and she flipped when you challenged her on the position of the camera so she threw the book at you.

You could either report her to the local Super and ask to have the charges withdrawn or take it up with the Garda Ombudsman.

Coylemj I value your contribution to the boards so dont get me wrong but the OP engaged with a Garda who then detected offences involving the OPs vehicle. The OP helped antagonise the situation by getting out and taking a photo. The Gardai have a difficult job to do, making a frivolous complaint to the GSOC or super over a simple road traffic offence isnt really helping anybody, especially when the OP is guilty.

If the super drops the charges its a bit like the African thing of "I got charged because I didnt pay my bribe, Il blackmail the police to drop the charge or I'l complain".

The OP may be best speaking to a solicitor and possibly following it up with an apology to the Garda in question, along with producing his insurance certificate that covered him that day.

coylemj

0O7 wrote: »

Sorry, you said that if it had no gates then its a public place....

public places can have gates too is all i was stating.

I think we're in agreement but just to clarify, what I meant was that in the case of a housing estate the presence of locked gates would rule out the place being considered a public place under the RTA.

Even if there was gates, if they were open at the time it would probably be considered a public place, similar to a hotel or shopping centre during opening hours.

McCrack

coylemj wrote: »

Was the speed camera pointing in the opposite direction to you when you were driving out of the estate? You could report her for malicious prosecution because it sounds to me like she was looking for speeding cars and she flipped when you challenged her on the position of the camera so she threw the book at you.

You could either report her to the local Super and ask to have the charges withdrawn or take it up with the Garda Ombudsman.

That's just entirely off the wall.

Farmlife

TylerIE wrote: »

Coylemj I value your contribution to the boards so dont get me wrong but the OP engaged with a Garda who then detected offences involving the OPs vehicle. The OP helped antagonise the situation by getting out and taking a photo. The Gardai have a difficult job to do, making a frivolous complaint to the GSOC or super over a simple road traffic offence isnt really helping anybody, especially when the OP is guilty.

I understand the garda have a hard job, but when operating speed detection checks the priority is safety, and when they place equipment in a dangerous position it make all further actions pointless.

i think i'll speak to the garda first as the process of making a complaint about her will just waist time for me and for her, thanks for all the help, at least im clear now on the private estate thing

MagicSean

How exactly was the speed gun located dangerously?