Accuracy: .22lr -v- .223

demonloop

Mod note: Split out from the proofing thread as we were so far off-topic and the idea was (in the abstract at least) interesting...

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

With the borescope I could see the magnified lands and rifling of my barrel, and see the uniformity and lack of burrs and other common tooling scratches.

If you ever looked down a factory "proofed" barrel with a bore scope (I have) one would wonder how it even fired a projectile straight.

My Main point is the Steel is of a much higher grade, and simply more of it than the previous barrel.

So why in the name of belelzebob would I want to hand it over to some guy to ruin it :eek:

I have a Bleiker, with a Lilja barrel. As with your barrel, the quality of the rifling is superb.

There's 4 other Bleikers in the 'circle' I shoot with regularly.

They were all proofed in Germany.

They all shoot 11/12mm 10 shot groups at 50m, so to suggest the proofing somehow ruins the barrel/accuracy is a bit, well, wrong.

Tackleberrywho

demonloop wrote: »

I have a Bleiker, with a Lilja barrel. As with your barrel, the quality of the rifling is superb.

There's 4 other Bleikers in the 'circle' I shoot with regularly.

They were all proofed in Germany.

They all shoot 11/12mm 10 shot groups at 50m, so to suggest the proofing somehow ruins the barrel/accuracy is a bit, well, wrong.

With the greatest of respect, a .22lr and a centrefire rifle SAAMI pressures are chalk and cheese.

Did you ever consider your Lilja may do 6mm groups had it not been proofed

The real accuracy of a rifle is not tested until after 50 metres. Several rifles can 1 hole @50 metres, infact my .223 can shoot consistently better groups than your Lilja at the same distance. Should I get that proofed to prove otherwise?
Custom centrefires are 600-1200 yard Rifles depending on calibre, things only get tricky after 50m;)




@ Tac Foley.
I'm not insulting any guy in London or Birmingham. They are only doing their job, as outlined by their laws........
I'm glad I don't live in England and don't need there help all the same.

Sparks

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

The real accuracy of a rifle is not tested until after 50 metres.

That's just plain wrong Tack.

Several rifles can 1 hole @50 metres

Yeah, but they have to make larger holes with far more kinetic energy behind the round than demonloop's do in order to hold that 1 hole group...

Honestly, you can't compare demonloop's bleiker to your .223; in any fair, accuracy-based metric, you'll lose. They don't cost five grand and up per rifle just for the nametag...

demonloop

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Thats where you and I will differ on opinion.
I have a vernier calipers that says I can put 10 rounds into a smaller hole than 7mm....

I was half taking you seriously up to this point

My groups are measured by Meyton.

Comparing your verniers to Meyton is comparing an F1 car to a...... oh, wait

Here, just had a thought. 7mm? Well the round is 5.66, give or take. So you have 10 shots showing variation of 0.67mm to either side of 'centre' to arrive at a 7mm hole, and you're shooting outside I imagine, and from a bipod as opposed to clamped in a vice?

I'd really need to see that!

Tackleberrywho

demonloop wrote: »

Over-pressure is over-pressure though.

No, because I have the test group from BEFORE it was proofed too. Its 12mm.
Any measured groups you can post on here? I have loads...
I shoot with my elbows 1m behind the line so must be just as tricky then?

I have loads of groups posted here.
If I was not away from home now I'd go out to shoot you a fresh one, I love a challenge.

I shoot with my elbows on gravel and the odd nettle for extra fun

Tackleberrywho

demonloop wrote: »

I was half taking you seriously up to this point

My groups are measured by Meyton.

Comparing your verniers to Meyton is comparing an F1 car to a...... oh, wait

I can also use Image recognition software from a SEM if you prefer.
I use F1 Technology all the time

Sparks

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Thats where you and I will differ on opinion.
I have a vernier calipers that says I can put 10 rounds into a smaller hole than 7mm....

I'm sure you do.
Now, get out your ballistic calculator, figure out where your rounds have 120 joules of kinetic energy in them, and tell us the group size at that range in MoA, and compare that to demonloop's beiker.
You'll still be comparing apples and oranges, but since they're both spherical hand-held tree fruit of similar weights, it'll be better than what you're doing now, which is comparing chalk and cheese.

When your €5k .224 calibre rifle can shoot under an inch at 200 yards I'll take my hat off.

Not my €5k .22lr calibre rifle.
And when it's designed to shoot at 50m, it'd be silly to look at its performance at 200 yards. It'd be seeing how fast a ferrari could tow a caravan.

It's like comparing high quality go-carts with F1 cars

I think you'd find better shooters than you (like say, Tubbs) would disagree with that assessment.

demonloop

Here, just had a thought. 7mm? Well the round is 5.66, give or take. So you have 10 shots showing variation of 0.67mm to either side of 'centre' to arrive at a 7mm hole, and you're shooting outside I imagine, and from a bipod as opposed to clamped in a vice?

I'd really need to see that!

Tackleberrywho

You don't need to be a better shooter than me Or you to appreciate .22lrs have there place.....................
At 50m :rolleyes:

a .17hmr will shoot smaller groups again at the same range with more kenetic energy, and Duffy in Galway sells them for under €500

Tackleberrywho

demonloop wrote: »

Here, just had a thought. 7mm? Well the round is 5.66, give or take. So you have 10 shots showing variation of 0.67mm to either side of 'centre' to arrive at a 7mm hole, and you're shooting outside I imagine, and from a bipod as opposed to clamped in a vice?

I'd really need to see that!

Any time yee Nordies wanna call down South yee can, I've a spare room
Or if you prefer I'll go North. Tell Sam to have the spare room ready!

Sparks

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

You don't need to be a better shooter than me Or you to appreciate .22lrs have there place.....................
At 50m :rolleyes:
a .17hmr will shoot smaller groups again at the same range with more kenetic energy, and Duffy in Galway sells them for under €500

You miss the point Tack.
Needing a larger round, or more kinetic energy, to hold a similar group size, means your rifle is (on some abstract level) less accurate than the one you're comparing it to, not more so...

Tackleberrywho

Sparks wrote: »

You miss the point Tack.
Needing a larger round, or more kinetic energy, to hold a similar group size, means your rifle is (on some abstract level) less accurate than the one you're comparing it to, not more so...

when my bullet is travelling at 729 fps it is 120 Joules which I reckon would be around 1100 yards, buy my spec (kill zone) is not 1100 yards but 50-600 and 50-250 on foxes. At 300 yards my rifle is ~Demonloops accuracy levels @50

My rifle was not designed to be a paper puncher, but a Varminter. I know, I designed it and proved it in the field.

If some guy in Birmingham or London has a problem with that, it's his problem.

Vegeta

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

At 300 yards my rifle is ~Demonloops accuracy levels @50

Hang on, hang on.

You're saying you can put 10 rounds into under half an inch at 300 yards?

demonloop

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Any time yee Nordies wanna call down South yee can, I've a spare room
Or if you prefer I'll go North. Tell Sam to have the spare room ready!

We're there most weekends in the summer!

Sam always has great cake too!

Tackleberrywho

Vegeta wrote: »

Hang on, hang on.

You're saying you can put 10 rounds into under half an inch at 300 yards?

Weather permitting and not suffering Jet lag, I have shot 1/2-3/4 @300 with Match grade ammo.

I saw Paulo do similar with a .243 Trueflite recently.
Unproofed :eek:

Sparks

Vegeta wrote: »

Hang on, hang on.
You're saying you can put 10 rounds into under half an inch at 300 yards?

Well, be fair - you'd want to show the same accuracy in MoA at 300 yards, rather than the same accuracy in edge-to-edge group size. 11mm edge-to-edge groups at 50m with a .22lr translates to about 0.37 MoA.

Tackleberrywho

demonloop wrote: »

We're there most weekends in the summer!

Sam always has great cake too!

That his wife does!
I want to see Sam in a Kilt too!

Sparks

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Weather permitting and not suffering Jet lag, I have shot 1/2-3/4 @300 with Match grade ammo.
I saw Paulo do similar with a .243 Trueflite recently.
Unproofed :eek:

Edge-to-edge or center to center? (And we're talking about 10 shot groups here, right?)

demonloop

Vegeta wrote: »

Hang on, hang on.

You're saying you can put 10 rounds into under half an inch at 300 yards?

"Under 7mm" at 50m would be equal to about 34mm at 300 yards. Thats edge to edge.

The F Class 300yd target has a v-bull diamater of 57.15mm

Tackleberrywho

demonloop wrote: »

"Under 7mm" at 50m would be equal to about 34mm at 300 yards. Thats edge to edge.

The F Class 300yd target has a v-bull diamater of 57.15mm

Does that mean I win as an inch is 25.4mm?? :cool:

Vegeta

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Weather permitting and not suffering Jet lag, I have shot 1/2-3/4 @300 with Match grade ammo.

I saw Paulo do similar with a .243 Trueflite recently.
Unproofed :eek:

Any chance you took photos of these 10 shot groups?

Cause it's funny, benchrest shooters are barely capable of that accuracy with only 5 rounds. A world record (might have been broken since) at 300 yards for a 5 shot group is like 1.19 cm or something.

Oh here it is:
http://www.odt.co.nz/your-town/dunedin/120522/marksmans-aim-right-world-record

So yeah I don't believe you at all I'm afraid.

demonloop

Vegeta wrote: »

Any chance you took photos of these 10 shot groups?

Cause it's funny, benchrest shooters are barely capable of that accuracy with only 5 rounds. A world record (might have been broken since) at 300 yards for a 5 shot group is like 1.19 cm or something.

Oh here it is:
http://www.odt.co.nz/your-town/dunedin/120522/marksmans-aim-right-world-record

So yeah I don't believe you at all I'm afraid.

Feet up, popcorn in hand.

Tackleberrywho

Vegeta wrote: »

Any chance you took photos of these 10 shot groups?

Cause it's funny, benchrest shooters are barely capable of that accuracy with only 5 rounds. A world record (might have been broken since) at 300 yards for a 5 shot group is like 1.19 cm or something.

Oh here it is:
http://www.odt.co.nz/your-town/dunedin/120522/marksmans-aim-right-world-record

So yeah I don't believe you at all I'm afraid.

11.9mm Vs 12.7-19.05mm 1/2-3/4"

He does shoot in a very similar way to me though, one eyed and all:eek:

And I quote "It's been a lot of fun so far. It's a real challenge doing something where a fraction of an inch can take you from hero to zero."
1/2-3/4 at 300 is no world record

Vegeta

demonloop wrote: »

Feet up, popcorn in hand.

Ah now, I don't mean it in a bitchy way.

I have seen the photos of Tacks groups and he can put 3-4 rounds in a tight group with that rifle.

Just not 10 rounds in close to 11-12mm. That's world record stuff for feck sake.

Vegeta

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

11.9mm Vs 12.7-19.05mm 1/2-3/4"

He does shoot in a very similar way to me though, one eyed and all:eek:

And I quote "It's been a lot of fun so far. It's a real challenge doing something where a fraction of an inch can take you from hero to zero."
1/2-3/4 at 300 is no world record

So you still claim to put twice as many rounds as these guys into a hole only 1mm bigger?

I think you're going to hurt your reputation with claims like that Tack

Sparks

Tack, saying you can put in a group that's within 0.8mm of the world record in benchrest (shot from a very solid rest) when shooting from a bipod, well, we're into Carl Sagan territory here (as in "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence").

Tackleberrywho

Vegeta wrote: »

So you still claim to put twice as many rounds as these guys into a hole only 1mm bigger?

I think you're going to hurt your reputation with claims like that Tack

I said between 1/2 and 3/4:eek: (mostly closer 3/4 or the odd time I can miss by a mile )
And probably 5 not ten at 300.
But at 50 against Demonloop Game on!
And I have none of that ammo available to me that he has all batch tested an everything!

After extensive chronoing recently, my faith in factory ammo has been severely tested.

I do know that the guys who were under the Pilot scheme shot out of their skins Vs the Yanks. Especially a Blonde Bomshell from Wickla who was a Virgin Target shooter
Had they been handed all UMC the comp was anybodies.

To get sub MOA is the bar we all strive for, to get well below MOA we all need everything tuned to the last and singing

Tackleberrywho

Sparks wrote: »

Tack, saying you can put in a group that's within 0.8mm of the world record in benchrest (shot from a very solid rest) when shooting from a bipod, well, we're into Carl Sagan territory here (as in "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence").

You obviously misread my post.
1/2-3/4" 13-19 (6mm) being a mile bigger than 11.9 in record terms

Sparks

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

And probably 5 not ten at 300.

Okay, so shoot a ten-shot group, make it your best, shoot it from a rest if you want, and show us what group size you get.

But at 50 against Demonloop Game on!
And I have none of that ammo available to me that he has all batch tested an everything!

Nor would you need it, if your round is larger and has literally more than ten times the kinetic energy behind it...

To get sub MOA is the bar we all strive for, to get well below MOA we all need everything tuned to the last and singing

Actually, for the shooting demonloop does, shooting 0.40 MOA would mean he couldn't even get up to par; he needs to be down around the 0.37 MOA level just to be competitive.

Sparks

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

You obviously misread my post.

No, I don't think so...

Tackleberrywho, earlier wrote:

I have shot 1/2-3/4 @300

1/2-3/4" 13-19 (6mm) being a mile bigger than 11.9 in record terms

1/2" = 12.7mm = world record for benchrest + 0.8mm.
If you're saying you've never shot 1/2" groups, okay, but you need to be more exact about group sizes for this thread I think Tack...

Tackleberrywho

Below MOA@ 100yards is a basic yard stick accepted in general consensus

If the rain holds of long enough when I am off I will shoot a few groups.

I really wanted to shoot a Sika or Fallow too this week for my hecklers on the hunting thread, but I'll try to squeeze you all in.:D

So hard keep all yee guys happy.

Sparks

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Below MOA@ 100yards is a basic yard stick accepted in general consensus

Except in ISSF, where you use edge-to-edge group sizes as they're a better metric to use (identical range, identical target size, and a direct translation to how many points the rifle/ammunition systems can potentially lose you).

So hard keep all yee guys happy.

It is always hard to keep people happy when you imply that you're better than they are at something without proving it

Tackleberrywho

Sparks wrote: »

Except in ISSF, where you use edge-to-edge group sizes as they're a better metric to use (identical range, identical target size, and a direct translation to how many points the rifle/ammunition systems can potentially lose you).


It is always hard to keep people happy when you imply that you're better than they are at something without proving it

The only thing I ever implied is that I have courage of conviction.

I'll prove the groups this week weather permitting.

clivej

I've just got into reading this thread and it's a good read.

Tack ................
Put up or shut up would seem to be what's need from you now. You'v been raving on over the Hornaday superformance for months and how they are shooting for ya, in fact a little to much for some people IMO.

When your digging a hole it's knowing when to stop that's the skill.

Tackleberrywho

clivej wrote: »

I've just got into reading this thread and it's a good read.

Tack ................
Put up or shut up would seem to be what's need from you now. You'v been raving on over the Hornaday superformance for months and how they are shooting for ya, in fact a little to much for some people IMO.

When your digging a hole it's knowing when to stop that's the skill.

Your entitled to your opinion.

Dusty87

Your talent is being wasted tack, imagine the trophys!

dev110

Lads I think I need to clear this up for Tack.

He is talking out his ass!!

Here is a group he shot with the old barrel at 300 yards with a 5mph wind



That doesn't look like 7mm. I know that he hasn't grouped the new barrel @ 300 yards.

Here is a pic of a group when he was breaking in the barrel



I believe he was saying this was shot at 100 yards. It was shot @ 25 yards.

I would love to see him get 10 shots into 7mm at 300 yards :rolleyes:
Only way I see that happening is if he shot once at the paper and missed the rest

Sorry for the rant but I can't take this bulls***e any more.

tomcat220t

I believe 1/2"-3/4" 5 shot groups can be done with the right setup @300 yards .I might not agree with all of tacks comments on this subject but some replys are from guys who have not got a custom built rifle and maybe dont understand just how accurate they can be in the right hands .

Dusty87

tomcat220t wrote: »

I believe 1/2"-3/4" 5 shot groups can be done with the right setup @300 yards .I might not agree with all of tacks comments on this subject but some replys are from guys who have not got a custom built rifle and maybe dont understand just how accurate they can be in the right hands .

and some are from lads who know him, and have met him a few times.

dev110

tomcat220t wrote: »

I believe 1/2"-3/4" 5 shot groups can be done with the right setup @300 yards .I might not agree with all of tacks comments on this subject but some replys are from guys who have not got a custom built rifle and maybe dont understand just how accurate they can be in the right hands .

I know what custom rifles can do in the right hands.
But the way he is going on is that his rifle will out beat everything out there and even beat a world record by reducing the group size and doubling the number of shots @ 300 yards.
There is a limit to how much you live in a fantasy world

stick shooter

@ Dev110 - Taking on board what you say and all that, but that is pretty good grouping @300 yards with a factory barrel .

tomcat220t

dev110 wrote: »

I know what custom rifles can do in the right hands.
But the way he is going on is that his rifle will out beat everything out there and even beat a world record by reducing the group size and doubling the number of shots @ 300 yards.
There is a limit to how much you live in a fantasy world

Judging for his 300 yard group with his old barrel ,the chap can shoot .....yes or no?Ive seen groups of one or two guys who replyed :rolleyes:

Cass

stick shooter wrote: »

......., but that is pretty good grouping @300 yards with a factory barrel .

Okay this has been annoying me for a while, and its possible i've ranted on about this before. I rant so often its hard to keep track.

For a proper group there must be a minimum of 5 shots, and this must be done a few times. A fluke or 3 shot "group" is NOT a group. Many times i've seen lads posting about how they got a 1/2" group, etc at a set distance when infact they zoom in and omit the stray round or show it and call it a sighting shot.

Fact is on most other forums and to be recognised as an "Official" group there is usually 4 sets of 5 shots, with the tightest being used as the best/average. The entire target is shown, with close ups of the individual groups leaving no room for misunderstandings. This is a group. Not 2 shots, 3 shots, etc, and not at stepped out distances, or done with friends around. On a range with a measured distance and independant witnesses. So even if i see a group at X distance i never believe it unless all or at least the majority of the above are shown and proven.


To that end a 1/2" group at 300 yards is possible. I have shot such groups before. However the 14.9mm group i got was the best of about 10 shot. The largest going to 1.5" because of a flyer, pulled shot, etc. Whether you want to count it or not is irrelevant. If its shot as a string of 5 it counts. The difference being i'm using a 32", select barrel, trued action, custom stock, F-Class bipod, solid rear bag, with tailor made ammo designed specifically for my rifle.

I don't doubt that there are lads capable of shooting excellent groups, but i've yet to see any in Ireland. So using a factory rifle even with a custom barrel, harris bipod, and factory ammo, and then claiming that it/you can shoot better or as good a group as the top benchrest shooter(s) in the world is simply not believeable. Benchrest shooters have given us pretty much every advancement in shooting, reloading, accuracy, etc that we have today.

@ TBW - If you can shoot this then be sure to contact me, i'll meet you on the range and would be happy to validate your ability.

stick shooter

Now thats a proper rant :D

Cass

I have my moments.

Dusty87

It is great shooting, at 25yards in fairness.

Longranger

I don't want to stir the proverbial,but this sounds like a target shooting conversation. I know shot placement is crucial in hunting,but jesus lads, if I shoot a rabbit, it won't matter of I'm .5 MOA out @150 yards. Maybe I'm over-stepping the mark, but is the whole"I'm better than you"thing a bit much here. Sorry if I pissed anyone off, but hey, just my two cents.

Cass

Look, don't get me wrong. I'm a sceptic. Always have been, and most likely always will. I don't take anything at face value until i see it for myself (within reason obviously. I mean i've never seen a baby pigeon, but i have no doubt they exist)

I've always said that the thing that keeps me true on this site is i wouldn't be allowed get away with spoofing. I couldn't meet the lads on the range next week after claiming i could do 1 inch groups at 1,000 yards on here. They would make a laughing stock out of me and quite rightly so.

Saying that i'd give anyone a chance. If someone wants to meet me and do a bit of shooting and they prove they can do what they claim i'll shake their hand and say well done. If not i will mock.

To tie in with my points in the last post people i have met before tell me they only shoot 2 or 3 shots for a group and never do anymore than 2 sets. Thats not a group. Anyone thats tried a proper group testing of mulitple shots, with mulitple rounds especially with factory ammo will tell you that there is always a stray that irrespective of the shooters ability or rifle ability will mess up your group. If the ammo is of good quality then there are no excuses.

I find it funny that in previously posted groups people dismiss the 3rd/4th/5th shot that wasn't in with the others as a "pulled shot" or "the wind caught it". Well newsflash thats still a shot and still counts towards the group size. Shooting tight groups is not about how the rifle does only, but also about the ability of the shooter to judge conditions.

Cass

Longranger wrote: »

I don't want to stir the proverbial,but this sounds like a target shooting conversation.

Fundamentally it probably is, but as its a general shooting topic rather than a specific target discipline its left here.

bazza888

whats the proper official way to measure a group?

Longranger

Ezridax wrote: »

Fundamentally it probably is, but as its a general shooting topic rather than a specific target discipline its left here.

Sorry, thought it was hunting. I'm digging a hole now, so I'll see ye when I get out:embarrassed: