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Teens laws and human rights

  • 18-09-2011 3:42am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 41


    Is there anywhere I can find The irish laws and rights On garda stopping teens or adults (over 18). Telling them to move from a specific location (public property) and Taking certain objects from the owner(both over and under 18. Thanks guys.


«1

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 41 Kenlfc


    Can the garda search my school bag if im walking down the road on my own? or can I refuse?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,935 Mod ✭✭✭✭Turner


    Yes and yes, but expect to be arrested.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 480 ✭✭not even wrong


    http://iccl.ie/know-your-rights-criminal-justice-and-garda-powers.html
    If a Garda believes that you have alcohol or drugs and that you may interfere with the public peace, the Garda can demand an explanation, seize the container or ask you to leave the area,


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    Very protective of your school books?

    Chief would you have to arrest or could you simply detain for the purpose of searching?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Section 4 and 8 of the public order act 1994


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 93 ✭✭The_Snapper


    Kenlfc wrote: »
    Can the garda search my school bag if im walking down the road on my own? or can I refuse?

    OP,

    Police need reasonable grounds to search yourself or your property. They cannot just search you at random as you have described. If you are a minor, tell your parents what happened.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    You can be searched with consent. Otherwise it depends what they're looking for.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,077 ✭✭✭Finnbar01


    OP,

    Police need reasonable grounds to search yourself or your property. They cannot just search you at random as you have described. If you are a minor, tell your parents what happened.


    They can search you when they want to and they don't have to give you a reason there and then why they are doing it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    Zey are not ze SS


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    Finnbar01 wrote: »
    They can search you when they want to and they don't have to give you a reason there and then why they are doing it.

    Incorrect, Garda can only search you with warrant, or if permitted by Statute, i.e. Section 23 Of the misuse of drugs act 1977, if a Garda does not tell you he is searching you under that act and section and tells you he with "reasonable cause suspects that a person is in possession in contravention of this Act of a controlled drug," any search and detention would be illegal. The problem will be that usually a guards word against a civilian, the guard will say he said what was required.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Incorrect, Garda can only search you with warrant, or if permitted by Statute, i.e. Section 23 Of the misuse of drugs act 1977, if a Garda does not tell you he is searching you under that act and section and tells you he with "reasonable cause suspects that a person is in possession in contravention of this Act of a controlled drug," any search and detention would be illegal. The problem will be that usually a guards word against a civilian, the guard will say he said what was required.

    They don't have to quote section and verse. Simpy saying under which act is enough.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    Seanbeag1 wrote: »
    They don't have to quote section and verse. Simpy saying under which act is enough.

    They usually only say the act is true, but when they give evidence they say they had reasonable grounds, and informed the person that they wished to search under section 23 of the misuse of drugs act 1977. The Garda is invoking a serious power to legally detain and search you, he should do it correctly.

    See the case of Farrelly v. Devally [1998] 4 IR 76
    Criminal law - Power of detention and search - Right of accused to be informed of nature and description of statute being invoked - Whether An Garda Siochana required to adhere strictly to statutory requirements of legislation.

    It was held that the accused had a right to be informed Of the nature of the description of the statutory powers about to be invoked.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    They usually only say the act is true, but when they give evidence they say they had reasonable grounds, and informed the person that they wished to search under section 23 of the misuse of drugs act 1977. The Garda is invoking a serious power to legally detain and search you, he should do it correctly.

    See the case of Farrelly v. Devally [1998] 4 IR 76
    Criminal law - Power of detention and search - Right of accused to be informed of nature and description of statute being invoked - Whether An Garda Siochana required to adhere strictly to statutory requirements of legislation.

    It was held that the accused had a right to be informed Of the nature of the description of the statutory powers about to be invoked.

    The description is in the name of the act. Misuse of drugs act = search for drugs. Firearms and offensive weapons act = firearms and offensive weapons. The exception would be Offences against the State but that is rarely used as a power of search.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    Seanbeag1 wrote: »
    The description is in the name of the act. Misuse of drugs act = search for drugs. Firearms and offensive weapons act = firearms and offensive weapons. The exception would be Offences against the State but that is rarely used as a power of search.

    The report of the case states that the Garda identified themselves, and informed the suspect he was to be detained for the purpose of a search under section 23 of the Misuse of drugs act 1977. In my opinion if a Garda does not clearly state the section he is invoking then there may be an issue with any find and arrest.

    See DPP v Rooney 1992 the accused is entitled to be informed of the statutory power being invoked the power is in section 23 not the act therefore he must be informed of the section. Rooney was a case involving a search in relation to theft, the court clearly said the person must be told the section and act, this case was followed in Farrelly.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 206 ✭✭THENORTHSIDER


    If you have nothing to hide then why worry about it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    If you have nothing to hide then why worry about it.

    While that sounds reasonable, the reality is that the police do not nor should they have an open ended right to detain and search.

    There are a lot of legal things that could be in any persons bag, that the person may not want anyone else seeing, private letters, gimp mask etc. Just because a person has noting illegal to hide should not take away from requirement of the police to use the wide powers given to them correctly.

    In fact as a citizen I believe you should at all times make sure your rights are not violated, so as to protect society as a whole,


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,635 ✭✭✭TylerIE


    OP There may be bye-laws in place regarding consumption of alcohol in a public place which may also need to be considered.

    Link to S4 Public Order Act. Section 8 details the powers of Gardai with regard to directing you to leave an area.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,077 ✭✭✭Finnbar01


    If you have nothing to hide then why worry about it.


    You wouldn't mind public CCTV being installed in your home so? After all, I take it you have nothing to hide, so nothing to fear than.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 41 Kenlfc


    Thanks guys all your information really helped. But im still unsure about two questions,

    Q1. If Im walking down the road on my own with a bag can the garda stop me (yes they can) and search me and my bag?

    Q2. If im carrying on me or in my bag not drugs, harmfull objects or alcohol can they take them from me?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Kenlfc wrote: »
    Thanks guys all your information really helped. But im still unsure about two questions,

    Q1. If Im walking down the road on my own with a bag can the garda stop me (yes they can) and search me and my bag?

    Q2.

    A Garda can stop anyone and ask them anything. They can ask to search you and if you decline they will have to invoke a statutory power or arrest you if they want to search you.

    They can take anything they believe to be evidence of a crime. They can also take any alcohol or possible weapons.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,635 ✭✭✭TylerIE


    Kenlfc wrote: »
    Thanks guys all your information really helped. But im still unsure about two questions,

    Q1. If Im walking down the road on my own with a bag can the garda stop me (yes they can) and search me and my bag?

    Q2. If im carrying on me or in my bag not drugs, harmfull objects or alcohol can they take them from me?

    The search question has been answered in your other thread here.

    If you mean your carrying other materials in your bag, and these items are not drugs alcohol or weapons, then they may be able to take them from you depending on circumstances, e.g. if its evidence of a crime. You'll need to elaborate really.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 41 Kenlfc


    Seanbeag1 wrote: »
    A Garda can stop anyone and ask them anything. They can ask to search you and if you decline they will have to invoke a statutory power or arrest you if they want to search you.
    So if I refuse to be searched I will get arrested? Can you link me a list of the statutory powers?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Kenlfc wrote: »
    So if I refuse to be searched I will get arrested? Can you link me a list of the statutory powers?

    No. There are loads of powers of search. You will only be arrested if they believe you have committed a crime and will not cooperate.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,635 ✭✭✭TylerIE


    Kenlfc wrote: »
    So if I refuse to be searched I will get arrested? Can you link me a list of the statutory powers?

    www.irishstatutebook.ie

    There is different powers of search under different acts.

    You will need to elaborate in order to get some specific advice.

    Its better to co-operate at the time of the search, and if your innocent nothing will be found, and you can follow it up afterwards. If your not innocent, and the Gardai have acted outside their powers, then a solicitor will probably get it thrown out if a prosecution follows. If your not innocent, and the Gardai have acted within their powers, then you may stop breaking the law!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    Kenlfc wrote: »
    Thanks guys all your information really helped. But im still unsure about two questions,

    Q1. If Im walking down the road on my own with a bag can the garda stop me (yes they can) and search me and my bag?

    Q2. If im carrying on me or in my bag not drugs, harmfull objects or alcohol can they take them from me?

    The answer to Q1 should be found here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=2056393038,

    In relation to Q2 without knowing what was taken and the reasons claimed by the Garda for the the object, it would be difficult to answer.

    Section 22 Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994, only applies to crowd control situations. I'm trying to think of any other legislation that would allow a Garda to take alcohol from any person even a minor, if the said bottle was in a bag and not being consumed in public. If anyone can enlighten me otherwise I am interested.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 41 Kenlfc


    TylerIE wrote: »
    The search question has been answered in your other thread here.

    If you mean your carrying other materials in your bag, and these items are not drugs alcohol or weapons, then they may be able to take them from you depending on circumstances, e.g. if its evidence of a crime. You'll need to elaborate really.
    Ok, lets say I'm walking down the road on my own I have a school bag, with lets say spray paint in it. The garda stop ask me a few questions "whats in the bag" I respond with "spray paint" They get out and what can they do?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 41 Kenlfc


    OP,

    Police need reasonable grounds to search yourself or your property. They cannot just search you at random as you have described. If you are a minor, tell your parents what happened.
    If i refuse searchs will I be arrested? Or can I ask If I'm being detained and carry on walking?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,635 ✭✭✭TylerIE


    Kenlfc wrote: »
    Ok, lets say I'm walking down the road on my own I have a school bag, with lets say spray paint in it. The garda stop ask me a few questions "whats in the bag" I respond with "spray paint" They get out and what can they do?



    Il pass that to the floor... If there has been graffiti in the area they have cause to talk to you to investigate further.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 41 Kenlfc


    TylerIE wrote: »
    Il pass that to the floor... If there has been graffiti in the area they have cause to talk to you to investigate further.
    But if they get No calls nor see me commit any crimes can they?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Kenlfc wrote: »
    Ok, lets say I'm walking down the road on my own I have a school bag, with lets say spray paint in it. The garda stop ask me a few questions "whats in the bag" I respond with "spray paint" They get out and what can they do?

    Ask you why you have it. Ask to search your bag. If you don't cooperate then arrest you on suspicion of criminal damage. Seize the cans as evidence of suspected criminal damage.

    There may also be a case for searching you under the firearms and offensive weapons act but it would be unlikely.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Kenlfc wrote: »
    But if they get No calls nor see me commit any crimes can they?

    Yes if there is a problem with grafitti in the area.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Kenlfc wrote: »
    If i refuse searchs will I be arrested? Or can I ask If I'm being detained and carry on walking?

    You could be arrested yes. It depends on the situation though. The Garda needs only to believe you may have committed a crime.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 41 Kenlfc


    Seanbeag1 wrote: »
    You could be arrested yes. It depends on the situation though. The Garda needs only to believe you may have committed a crime.
    So its a loose loose situation?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 41 Kenlfc


    Seanbeag1 wrote: »
    Yes if there is a problem with grafitti in the area.
    Say if its my route home?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,381 ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    Kenlfc wrote: »
    But if they get No calls nor see me commit any crimes can they?

    They obviously have a clear reason to suspect you, or are they stopping and searching every person in the area??


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 41 Kenlfc


    Seanbeag1 wrote: »
    Ask you why you have it. Ask to search your bag. If you don't cooperate then arrest you on suspicion of criminal damage. Seize the cans as evidence of suspected criminal damage.

    There may also be a case for searching you under the firearms and offensive weapons act but it would be unlikely.
    So I will get arrested If I tell them its for legal activites and refuse a search?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,635 ✭✭✭TylerIE


    Kenlfc wrote: »
    But if they get No calls nor see me commit any crimes can they?

    Of course they can talk to you... They dont need calls or reports to be allowed to say hello, how are you.

    Its also reasonable for them to be suspicious - what is a teenager doing with a can of spray paint? This can also be influenced by the location they seen you in, the time of the day or night, if you are known to them etc.

    I cant find any specific rights with regard to search at the moment, so will leave it to someone who knows a lot more than me to answer.

    When I was in my late teens my car was stopped and searched on a monthly basis as I drove a lot at night in Dublin. On one occasion I was stopped twice in 5 minutes. It annoyed me a lot at the time, but co-operation goes a long way. I never had anything illegal, nor did my passengers, so I got over it. Im not saying its right and that I was happy but perhaps its a necessary evil when living in a civilized society.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Kenlfc wrote: »
    So I will get arrested If I tell them its for legal activites and refuse a search?

    That depends on wether the Garda believes you.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,381 ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    Kenlfc wrote: »
    So its a loose loose situation?

    Only if you have committed a crime. Otherwise, a quick investigation will clear you.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,635 ✭✭✭TylerIE


    Kenlfc wrote: »
    So I will get arrested If I tell them its for legal activites and refuse a search?


    If you refuse a search quite possibly. If you allow a search, and they confiscate it, its possible they may allow your parents or similar to pick it up later from the Garda station if its for a legitimate household purpose.

    However not many 14-18 year olds need spray paint for household DIY on their way home from school


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 41 Kenlfc


    TylerIE wrote: »
    Of course they can talk to you... They dont need calls or reports to be allowed to say hello, how are you.

    Its also reasonable for them to be suspicious - what is a teenager doing with a can of spray paint? This can also be influenced by the location they seen you in, the time of the day or night, if you are known to them etc.

    I cant find any specific rights with regard to search at the moment, so will leave it to someone who knows a lot more than me to answer.

    When I was in my late teens my car was stopped and searched on a monthly basis as I drove a lot at night in Dublin. On one occasion I was stopped twice in 5 minutes. It annoyed me a lot at the time, but co-operation goes a long way. I never had anything illegal, nor did my passengers, so I got over it. Im not saying its right and that I was happy but perhaps its a necessary evil when living in a civilized society.
    I dont mind them stopping and talking to me its the searching part. If I talk to them and refuse searches will they arrest me?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Paulw wrote: »
    Only if you have committed a crime. Otherwise, a quick investigation will clear you.

    And if you're stupid enough to tag you "art" then a quick investigation will bury you.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,381 ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    Kenlfc wrote: »
    If I talk to them and refuse searches will they arrest me?

    They have the power to arrest you, if they suspect you have committed a crime and/or if you have items in your possession that may relate to a crime.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,077 ✭✭✭Finnbar01


    Kenlfc wrote: »
    If i refuse searchs will I be arrested? Or can I ask If I'm being detained and carry on walking?


    AFAIK, when a garda stops and searches you, he will ask you for personal information which he will then put on the PULSE system. So if you refuse to be searched or refuse to give him the information he requires, yes, I'd say you would be arrested.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 41 Kenlfc


    TylerIE wrote: »
    If you refuse a search quite possibly. If you allow a search, and they confiscate it, its possible they may allow your parents or similar to pick it up later from the Garda station if its for a legitimate household purpose.

    However not many 14-18 year olds need spray paint for household DIY on their way home from school
    Id rather not have to get my mam and dad envolved, its just a waste of time and is annoying


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    Kenlfc wrote: »
    Ok, lets say I'm walking down the road on my own I have a school bag, with lets say spray paint in it. The garda stop ask me a few questions "whats in the bag" I respond with "spray paint" They get out and what can they do?

    Well, it seems to be you just gave the Garda the information, to form the opinion that a person has committed a crime or about to commit a crime under the Criminal Damage Act 1991. You have the right to silence, use it. I believe but am open to correction that a Garda can only demand you give name and address under certain statutory powers.

    Unless the Garda can prove beyond a doubt that the can of spray paint in your possession was the same as used to do criminal damage, then he has nothing to go on.

    But if he is aware of recent activity, involving the same colour paint, he may have enough to arrest without warrant, and investigate the matter.

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/arrests/questioning_and_surveillance.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,635 ✭✭✭TylerIE


    Kenlfc wrote: »
    Id rather not have to get my mam and dad envolved, its just a waste of time and is annoying

    When young people graffiti its a waste of taxpayers time and money. Hence why the Gardai will take a pro-active approach when there is a possibility that an offence may be committed. Not saying you were planning an offence, but as a productive member of society perhaps you should be thanking the Gardai for keeping your path home from school clear of graffiti, meaning you have a nice neighbourhood.

    If the paint is not for your household DIY whats it for?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 41 Kenlfc


    Well, it seems to be you just gave the Garda the information, to form the opinion that a person has committed a crime or about to commit a crime under the Criminal Damage Act 1991. You have the right to silence, use it. I believe but am open to correction that a Garda can only demand you give name and address under certain statutory powers.

    Unless the Garda can prove beyond a doubt that the can of spray paint in your possession was the same as used to do criminal damage, then he has nothing to go on.

    But if he is aware of recent activity, involving the same colour paint, he may have enough to arrest without warrant, and investigate the matter.

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/arrests/questioning_and_surveillance.html
    Thanks that answer was brilliant.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 41 Kenlfc


    TylerIE wrote: »
    When young people graffiti its a waste of taxpayers time and money. Hence why the Gardai will take a pro-active approach when there is a possibility that an offence may be committed. Not saying you were planning an offence, but as a productive member of society perhaps you should be thanking the Gardai for keeping your path home from school clear of graffiti, meaning you have a nice neighbourhood.

    If the paint is not for your household DIY whats it for?
    There is a legal wall in my local park.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 41 Kenlfc


    Well, it seems to be you just gave the Garda the information, to form the opinion that a person has committed a crime or about to commit a crime under the Criminal Damage Act 1991. You have the right to silence, use it. I believe but am open to correction that a Garda can only demand you give name and address under certain statutory powers.

    Unless the Garda can prove beyond a doubt that the can of spray paint in your possession was the same as used to do criminal damage, then he has nothing to go on.

    But if he is aware of recent activity, involving the same colour paint, he may have enough to arrest without warrant, and investigate the matter.

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/arrests/questioning_and_surveillance.html
    So instead of answering what is in my bag what should I say?


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