Lady and Ladette

LeeHoffmann

Hi ladies and gentlemen,
A brief discussion I had with someone on tgc got me thinking about perceptions of women. The old madonna/whore complex is, I think, thankfully gone by now. However, I feel that there could be a new dichotomy of 'lady' and 'ladette'. A lady being a polite woman who is gentle and dignified, not aggressive or argumentative, who takes care of her appearance but is still down to Earth and isn't vain or arrogant. A ladette (within my circles of friends) means a woman who is loud and boisterous, lacks class, starts fights (often when p1ssed), is vulgar and pushy, can be domineering and has unattractive personality traits in general. A lady is the definition of femininity, while 'ladette' is a derogatory term for a woman with no class.

I feel that I don't fit into either of these categories. I can only hope I'm not the latter!! And yet, I am argumentative (but in a good way I think) and can unfortunately be aggressive at times. I also would not describe myself as 'gentle' or patient and don't feel like I fit into the traditional description of 'feminine'. I feel that what is considered 'feminine' is just too restrictive for me.

I was wondering whether other loungers feel that they don't fit into the category of feminine. Do any of you feel that these categories don't describe you?

Secondly, the discussion in tgc came up because I said that a lot of men give me 'preferential' treatment when I'm the only woman in a group of men, such as they'll offer to give up their seat for me for no reason, they often try to pay for me if we get coffee, they tend to soften their language (i.e. less vulgar, less cursing) or just won't talk about certain things around me (e.g. sex). This tends to happen at the start of the friendship - once they get to know me, they usually stop acting this way. I was wondering whether other women have come across this kind of treatment? Obviously not all men do it but it's common enough in my experience.

Do you give men preferential treatment if they're the only man in a group of women? Do men have a similar dichotomy - e.g. 'gentleman' and 'jack the lad'?

Fremen

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

Secondly, the discussion in tgc came up because I said that a lot of men give me 'preferential' treatment when I'm the only woman in a group of men, such as they'll offer to give up their seat for me for no reason, they often try to pay for me if we get coffee, they tend to soften their language (i.e. less vulgar, less cursing) or just won't talk about certain things around me (e.g. sex).

If there was one girl I didn't know well among a bunch of lads, that's definitely how I'd behave around her (well, maybe not going so far as giving up my seat). It's just basic manners, really. Most guys would realise that some women could easily be offended or intimidated by a bunch of lads sitting around making dick jokes, so they'd tone it down until they knew the lay of the land.

It's just down to differences between the way guys and girls communicate.

Dudess

Generic and stereotypical male/female preferences alert!

I'm a mixture.

I burp like every several months, and it's always silent or barely emits a sound.
I swear like a mofo though (can't see a problem with the c-word - it's great I think! :pac:) and can be vulgar and crude in my turn of phrase. At the same time, I'm not shouty, and I would never discuss my sex life, apart from in private to one or two close friends - not for prudish reasons, I just think it's obnoxious and showy to be blabbing about it to e.g. people in the pub.

I drink "girlie" drinks but only because I don't react well to beer (even one or two pints so it's not that I drink too much of it - wheat intolerance I'd say) - I'd much prefer to drink beer tbh.

I love old-skool glamour and adore dressing up and wearing make-up, doing my hair etc, but I don't own many handbags or pairs of shoes or fake tan or a hair straightener. Then again, my hair is straight and fake tan looks stoopid on me.

I do think a lot about my figure and what I'm eating - and I try to be active. But I generally have no interest in sport. I love cooking and I make a kick-ass sandwich.

I like chivalry and a bit of blokeyness. I'm not into girlie TV or film or lit or music... I'd have more "masculine" tastes when it comes to all of the former.

I come across as very argumentative on Boards, but only because there are people who write truly hateful stuff here and you wouldn't encounter that crap in real life much, hence me being nowhere near as argumentative in real life. I wouldn't be a stereotypical feisty, ball-breaking woman at all - and wouldn't want to be. I can actually be a right softie at times - I'd cry at ads.

At the same time though, I'm well able to look out/speak out for myself.

Lady Chuckles

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

Secondly, the discussion in tgc came up because I said that a lot of men give me 'preferential' treatment when I'm the only woman in a group of men, such as they'll offer to give up their seat for me for no reason, they often try to pay for me if we get coffee, they tend to soften their language (i.e. less vulgar, less cursing) or just won't talk about certain things around me (e.g. sex).

Fremen wrote: »

If there was one girl I didn't know well among a bunch of lads, that's definitely how I'd behave around her (well, maybe not going so far as giving up my seat). It's just basic manners, really. Most guys would realise that some women could easily be offended or intimidated by a bunch of lads sitting around making dick jokes, so they'd tone it down until they knew the lay of the land.

These are gentleman examples
I really appreciate that type of behavior when I'm around men. Men can be a little frightening at times, when they talk to me like they'd talk to their group of lads.

Maybe I feel that way because I'm a lady

Teyla Emmagan

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

a lot of men give me 'preferential' treatment when I'm the only woman in a group of men, such as they'll offer to give up their seat for me for no reason, they often try to pay for me if we get coffee, they tend to soften their language (i.e. less vulgar, less cursing) or just won't talk about certain things around me (e.g. sex).

Am reading John Lonergan's book about being the Governor of Mountjoy at the moment. Anyway, he talks about the effect that female prison wardens have on male inmates - that they will basically all use less bad language, behave less agressively etc. That overall having a woman there has a really positive effect and the guys like having them around. Interesting.

baby and crumble

Well I definitely don't fit into either of those categories. I identify very much as a woman, and as female, but my behaviour and manners tend to err on the side on gentlemanly behaviour, which is a bit odd for some people. I'll give up my seat, hold doors open, that kind of thing. (Don't offer to pay for much since I'm skint, ut that's another issue!)

Then again I am a giant lesbian, so that might explain it!

:pac::pac::pac:

Azureus

I do notice that guys tend to initially act differently if there is a girl new to the group, and I really like that tbh. When I first started hanging around with my friends (predominantly lads) they were more polite, offered seats up, would always offer to buy a drink/coffee. Now, they would retain a bit of that but to a much lesser extent because im one of the lads in their eyes. Some of them got rid of the 'gentlemanliness completely and theyd be the ones Im most comfortable around so Im guessing theyre just comfortable around me aswell.
I love old school chivalry-I like a man to pay on the first date/do the asking out, all that stuff. But im not a total girlie girl either-Im fairly tomboyish in my likes/dislikes a lot of the time. I think the majority of people are the middle ground to be honest, but I can definately be a lady when its required.

RedXIV

If I may, I think there is definitely a difference between guys behaviour around new girls and ones they are comfortable with, but on the same token, the girl's personality will also come into it. I used to know this girl in school (where we all would have been a very easy-going, take-the-mick crowd) and everyone was just that little bit calmer and nicer around her because she was that .....delicate for want of a better term. It wasn't that guys fancied her, just that she wasn't capable of dealing with the slagging we would traditionally hand out to each other and that never changed over the years we knew her. The majority of girls though, we would get more comfortable around and as a result, get used to not pulling our punches so to speak.

But! there is definitely a different atmosphere around when its only guys. Even if a girl is adamant that she's one of the lads and everyone is used to her etc, there is something more relaxed about being in a group of just lads.....or maybe that's just me

Malari

Lady Chuckles wrote: »

These are gentleman examples
I really appreciate that type of behavior when I'm around men. Men can be a little frightening at times, when they talk to me like they'd talk to their group of lads.

Maybe I feel that way because I'm a lady

Sometimes I feel that way about women I have a fear of small talk with women, whereas I'd usually get on with men on a superficial level when I first meet them. Maybe it's sport. I can talk about most sport (unless they start about GAA ).

When I was in my early 20s I used to hang around with mostly lads and drink pints of beer and was heavily involved in sport, as well as watching a lot of it. Now I'm a bit more refined and I do love dressing up, and have a growing collection of fab shoes, and love to do cocktails/wine & tapas nights with my girlie friends.

Still, I'd be 10 times more comfortable if I was going out with my boyfriend and a few of his male mates I'd never met, rather than a female friend and several of her female friends I'd never met. Maybe, as Lady Chuckles commented, it's because of the difference in behaviour. I do tend to be a bit coarse, swear, am upfront about things, make smart comments and take the pi$$ a bit, make jokes that aren't always...eh, PC It seems to me that boys are more often ok with that than girls are. Does that make me a ladette? Don't know.... The fact that I look like a lady probably makes it all the more incongruous!

Das Kitty

Well, I wouldn't fall into either category, I'd go as far as to say that there are very few women who fit exactly in one or the other. I don't think they're opposites either.

I don't see the value of labeling people like this. Whether it be a jock, a nerd, an emo etc, or a Ladette / Lady. It's a blunt instrument.

As for the preferential treatment thing, I have a few male friends who would be very chivalrous, it doesn't offend me, nor does it offend me when other friends rob my chair or treat me like one of the guys.

Malari

Das Kitty wrote: »

Well, I wouldn't fall into either category, I'd go as far as to say that there are very few women who fit exactly in one or the other. I don't think they're opposites either.

I don't see the value of labeling people like this. Whether it be a jock, a nerd, an emo etc, or a Ladette / Lady. It's a blunt instrument.

Yes, I agree with this too. Meant to say something similar, but lost the run of myself

But having said that, labelling is a very human thing to do. Even if things don't fit into categories, we like to arrange things (even people) in a very general way. It's the way our brains work! But then again, it's fun to see someone place you a little box with a certain label on it and enjoy their reaction when you don't fit in quite right

LeeHoffmann

Thanks for the replies everyone. I'd empathise with a lot of what you said there Malari. I grew up with only men and boys in the family so i think that's why I'm more comfortable around men than I am around women (particularly strangers). I'm just more used to them.

However, I think most men would agree with what Red said - i.e. men prefer when women aren't part of the group because it's more relaxed etc. If this thread is anything to go by, it seems men give the preferential treatment because most women like it! (Hard for me to understand tbh - I'd be the complete opposite). Maybe men feel they can relax more if it's just other men there because women expect or want the preferential treatment.

For me, all this means that I find it hard to fit in with either gender!

RedXIV

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

However, I think most men would agree with what Red said - i.e. men prefer when women aren't part of the group because it's more relaxed etc. If this thread is anything to go by, it seems men give the preferential treatment because most women like it! (Hard for me to understand tbh - I'd be the complete opposite). Maybe men feel they can relax more if it's just other men there because women expect or want the preferential treatment.

For me, all this means that I find it hard to fit in with either gender!

Wouldn't say we PREFER it...but it is definitely a different atmosphere. There are nights when all I want to do is sit in a pub with my girlfriend and chat I don't care who and what gender is there, and then, every now and again, I'll want to get away from all women so we can have a lads night where you can be guaranteed no one is going to take anything the wrong way or throw a hissy fit because you didn't notice their shoes

I think you summed it up quite well at the end, it is more relaxed when its only men because every man out there, whether he realises it or not, has a tiny, or in some cases a massive, bit of restraint on what you say to check that its not going to offend anyone, ruin someones night, make some cry etc.

.......No wonder women like hanging out with us, I imagine a women's only night is fraught with danger of misunderstanding and delicate phrasing

LeeHoffmann

make some cry etc.

you're going a little overboard there. :rolleyes:

This thread makes me despair! Here I am trying to dispel the myth that women are delicate little flowers that need preferential treatment and here are all the ladies saying they want to be treated that way! :pac: :eek:

I don't have many women only nights out, but the few I've had...there's nearly always been a very supportive friendly atmosphere.

Maple

This labelling nonsense gets my goat. It drives me absolutely bonkers. Society is so determined to stick men/women into identifiable, easy to cope with boxes, rendering those who don't easily slot into the categories feeling like giant aliens.

The only box/category I want to fit into is that of human.

/end of rant

No, these categories do not describe me. I'm a mix of both.

In terms of treating men differently and how they treat me, it depends on how well I know the man in question.

LeeHoffmann

those who don't easily slot into the categories feeling like giant aliens.

The only box/category I want to fit into is that of human.

I agree with everything you said there Maple, particularly the quote above. Exactly my feeling on it.

Logical Fallacy

I have to say...nothing changes in my group of friends...no matter who is there. It does get a bit interesting when a new person arrives on the scene, male or female...you can actually see them struggling to understand what is happening around them.

Insulting each other is like a sport among my friends...and we will all say some pretty horrible stuff to each other and everyone will have a good laugh. A couple of times new girlfriends of friends haven't really figured it out and get a bit pissed off when a room full of people are slagging their fella but it's kind of a baptism of fire. If she sits there and broods she will probably not get on well with our friend anyway in the long run, if she gets pissed off then it's definitely not going to work. If she jumps in and starts slagging and having the laugh with us then it's gonna win her the seal of approval from all of us and it won't be long until she stops being X's girlfriend and starts being considered our friend and one of the group.

LeeHoffmann

It's kind of a baptism of fire...If she jumps in and starts slagging and having the laugh with us then it's gonna win her the seal of approval from all of us and it won't be long until she stops being X's girlfriend and starts being considered our friend and one of the group.

Sounds very like my group tbh. I remember telling the OH when he first met them ''if they slag you, that means they like you''. Slagging = acceptance
You can't get to know people really if you're tip-toeing around them

Storminateacup

Give and take I guess! My boyfriend holds doors open, will order for me at restaurants, carrys bags/heavy things, but also let's me do "boy things" too, such as be the big spoon , pay for dinner/drinks or whatever. It's a good mix.

He's also trying to teach me how to burp properly because my burps are like hiccups

Annasopra

I was at an equality conference last month and the Thursday panel discussion was a discussion on women and equality and had a panel of a Female TD, an NWCI rep, an AKIDWA rep and a Ruhama rep. There was also a discussion on an important female historical figure - The director of the conference opened and referred to this day of the conference as "ladies day" - My friends and I attending the conference were quite shocked that an equality event would use the term lady rather woman as we found that the term "lady" to be representative of various things - Deference to men, delicate, polite, reserved, gentle, small, very feminine - one person in our group saw the term lady as referring to a person of strength

Giselle

mango salsa wrote: »

- My friends and I attending the conference were quite shocked that an equality event would use the term lady rather woman as we found that the term "lady" to be representative of various things - Deference to men, delicate, polite, reserved, gentle, small, very feminine - one person in our group saw the term lady as referring to a person of strength

The women I think of as ladies are all independent, strong, self contained and opinionated. And yes, feminine too.

I've never seen it as a derogatory term, or inferred weakness from it.

Morag

I am not a lady, I refuse to be held hostage to what is considered Ladylike behaviour which imposes a double standard on me as a person.

dfx-

mango salsa wrote: »

My friends and I attending the conference were quite shocked that an equality event would use the term lady rather woman as we found that the term "lady" to be representative of various things - Deference to men, delicate, polite, reserved, gentle, small, very feminine - one person in our group saw the term lady as referring to a person of strength

Delicate, polite, reserved, gentle, small, feminine - all strong positive characteristics. Much easier to be irreverent, overbearing or do-it-your-own-way than be a lady or indeed gentleman.

fatmammycat

dfx- wrote: »

Delicate, polite, reserved, gentle, small, feminine - all strong positive characteristics. Much easier to be irreverent, overbearing or do-it-your-own-way than be a lady or indeed gentleman.

What's positive about being delicate, small or feminine?

You can be a decent human being with needing to fall into age old gender based claptrap. Being tall, strong, focused and determined does not suddenly make you less of a woman. Overbearing people, both men and women, are tiresome.

Giselle

fatmammycat wrote: »

What's positive about being delicate, small or feminine?

Whats negative about it though? In assigning negative connotations to words like feminine, surely we're playing into reactionary gender stereotypes too?

Small isn't a positive or negative comment on a woman, its just a state of being.

Women should feel as free to be feminine as they should be to be opinionated or assertive or strong or creative or any other quality, without being judged for it by either men or other women.

Delicate isn't something I'd like to be described as though, as it really does imply weakness.

fatmammycat

Giselle wrote: »

Whats negative about it though? In assigning negative connotations to words like feminine, surely we're playing into reactionary gender stereotypes too?

Small isn't a positive or negative comment on a woman, its just a state of being.

Women should feel as free to be feminine as they should be to be opinionated or assertive or strong or creative or any other quality, without being judged for it by either men or other women.

Delicate isn't something I'd like to be described as though, as it really does imply weakness.

I didn't say there was anything negative about it either. I agree being small is a state of being, being delicate to me = weakness, fragility. Being feminine, what's positive about that? I've no problem with a woman being feminine, but I'm at a loss as to see it as a positive thing, just a trait some women have and other don't.

LeeHoffmann

Whats negative about it though? In assigning negative connotations to words like feminine, surely we're playing into reactionary gender stereotypes too?

I think the negative connotations are there already. I think we need to redefine 'feminine'. To answer your question (what's negative about being small, delicate, feminine?) - they all suggest weakness.

Giselle

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

I think the negative connotations are there already. I think we need to redefine 'feminine'. To answer your question (what's negative about being small, delicate, feminine?) - they all suggest weakness.

But thats a pity really (except delicate, theres no way that can be positive).

There really shouldn't be anything negative about being small or feminine, as neither of them are equal to weakness, they're just a persons size or trait.

I think we're just used to more traditional female descriptives being used in a negative way, and its time we reclaimed them as part of the positive experience of being female. Theres more than one way to be a woman.

LeeHoffmann

The word 'small' is not negative in itself but when it occurs as part of a set of 'weak' traits, it doesn't seem so neutral.

The thing is, I think, femininity generally means weakness. When somebody describes another person as 'feminine', what traits are they suggesting? Doesn't 'feminine' refer to traits like gentleness, politeness, passivity, submission, weakness, 'delicateness' (as well as beauty)?

Giselle

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

The word 'small' is not negative in itself but when it occurs as part of a set of 'weak' traits, it doesn't seem so neutral.

The thing is, I think, femininity generally means weakness. When somebody describes another person as 'feminine', what traits are they suggesting? Doesn't 'feminine' refer to traits like gentleness, politeness, passivity, submission, weakness, 'delicateness' (as well as beauty)?

I can't say I ever inferred that from feminine.

I think its time we reclaimed the word as a positive thing, instead of continuing to see 'female' words as insults. ''You throw like a girl'' is used as an insult, but ''you throw like a man'' is a compliment. Its time we changed that. The way to start is from the inside out, and refuse to see the words as derogatory. I suppose I'm thinking of how the gay community claimed the word 'queer' and took the barb out.

I'm a feminine woman, and I'm proud of it. I'm definitely NOT weak

LeeHoffmann

I suppose I'm thinking of how the gay community claimed the word 'queer' and took the barb out

...unsuccessfully. It may not be offensive if a gay guy calls another gay guy queer, but it would be if a straight guy did. Likewise with the 'n' word.

Your posts confuse me...you say that you don't have negative connotations with the word feminine but you also say that female descriptives are used in a negative/derogatory way and that we need to re-claim the word 'feminine'. Why do you feel a need to reclaim a word if you have no negative connotations with it?

You said you don't infer those traits from the word feminine, but it seems like dictionary.com does (see the second definition of each):
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/feminine
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/masculine

Edit: Just want to say, I admire your attempt to turn the description into a positive

dfx-

fatmammycat wrote: »

What's positive about being delicate, small or feminine?

Being tall, strong, focused and determined does not suddenly make you less of a woman.

Neither does small or especially feminine and even delicate.

In my experience, a delicate person knows what to say and more importantly when not to say it. A good positive trait in the right circumstances as any other characteristic.

Ickle Magoo

dfx- wrote: »

Neither does small or especially feminine and even delicate.

In my experience, a delicate person knows what to say and more importantly when not to say it. A good positive trait in the right circumstances as any other characteristic.

I guess that depends on your definition of delicate - it can mean both frail/dainty or having tact...

Giselle

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

.

Your posts confuse me...you say that you don't have negative connotations with the word feminine but you also say that female descriptives are used in a negative/derogatory way and that we need to re-claim the word 'feminine'. Why do you feel a need to reclaim a word if you have no negative connotations with it?

I personally have never thought of those words as being derogatory, however its very clear others do.

I use 'we' in the wider sense.

fatmammycat

dfx- wrote: »

Neither does small or especially feminine and even delicate.

In my experience, a delicate person knows what to say and more importantly when not to say it. A good positive trait in the right circumstances as any other characteristic.

A mannerly person knows what to say and when not to say it. Delicate, when mixed with small and feminine, seems to have a very different slant.

fatmammycat

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I guess that depends on your definition of delicate - it can mean both frail/dainty or having tact...

Indeed, discussing a delicate matter is not the same as describing a delicate person.

x Purple Pawprints x

baby and crumble wrote: »

Well I definitely don't fit into either of those categories. I identify very much as a woman, and as female, but my behaviour and manners tend to err on the side on gentlemanly behaviour, which is a bit odd for some people. I'll give up my seat, hold doors open, that kind of thing. (Don't offer to pay for much since I'm skint, ut that's another issue!)

Then again I am a giant lesbian, so that might explain it!

:pac::pac::pac:

This sounds a lot like me except I'm not, to use baby and crumble's phrase, a giant lesbian. :pac:

I think I'm basically a mixture of a lady and a ladette if that's possible but I'd also like to think I'm more of a lady than a ladette if you get what I'm trying to say.

I met this idiot at the pub last Friday who called me a ladette because I was drinking a pint and laughed at a dirty joke. I was really taken aback because I've never been judged for anything like that before. It wouldn't occur to me that I had to behave in a certain way because I'm a woman. I could understand if someone was offended by me fighting or being loud and yobby (although only if they applied the same standard to men), but I was standing there minding my own business, talking to my boss and my colleagues. This moron implied I was drinking beer to fit in with the lads. Quite hilarious seeing as I'm actually usually referred to as a girly girl, I hate football/all sports, I wear only dresses and always have painted nails. I just happen to enjoy the taste of beer and a pint is a convenient measure when it takes about half an hour to get served at the bar. What a stupid thing to judge someone for. Why can't people just be people?

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Carolyn Wrong Wildflower wrote: »

I met this idiot at the pub last Friday who called me a ladette because I was drinking a pint and laughed at a dirty joke. I was really taken aback because I've never been judged for anything like that before. It wouldn't occur to me that I had to behave in a certain way because I'm a woman. I could understand if someone was offended by me fighting or being loud and yobby (although only if they applied the same standard to men), but I was standing there minding my own business, talking to my boss and my colleagues. This moron implied I was drinking beer to fit in with the lads. Quite hilarious seeing as I'm actually usually referred to as a girly girl, I hate football/all sports, I wear only dresses and always have painted nails. I just happen to enjoy the taste of beer and a pint is a convenient measure when it takes about half an hour to get served at the bar. What a stupid thing to judge someone for. Why can't people just be people?

It took me a loooong time to figure out ladies don't drink pints, I've always had them. If someone thinks I'm less of a lady for drinking a pint...well first of all they can piss off, second of all they should see how much of a lady I am after a night on shorts :pac:

I don't really think I fit in with either "lady" or "ladette", and I definitely can identify with the people who said they don't fit in with either gender. Being a person who sleeps with people of both genders doesn't help with that either.

In terms of dress and appearance, I'm equally comfortable wearing dresses or jeans, I enjoy spending time over getting dressed and putting on make-up but I certainly wouldn't feel exposed or unfeminine on the days where I just don't have the time/inclination/clean tights. And when I do wear dresses and stuff it's still not particularly "girly"-dark colours, straight lines, no frills and flowers or anything. I take care of my skin, watch what I eat, paint my nails, wear jewellery, but I don't wear fake tan, get high-lights, go for leg-waxes or do many other things which some women regard as basic essentials.

As for how I behave...I've always had plenty male friends, and I've always had a pretty filthy sense of humour. Some of my friends are "girly girls" and much as I love them I am generally holding back around them. But I'd say I'm more comfortable in general around non-girly girls than around men, though obviously it depends on the specific man. I'm extremely uncomfortable with confrontation or aggression, and tend to gloss over an argument rather than pursue it, especially if I don't know the person very well. That said, as far as general slagging goes I give and take with the best of them, but in my experience argument for the sake of enjoying a good auld argument does seem to be a fairly male thing, and it's not my cup of tea at all. I'm also very shy when I first meet people, and fairly quiet in group situations, I prefer to sit back and let other people talk until I get the measure of them, and I know that this has given people the wrong impression of me (reserved, "delicate" or just a downright bitch) which they've then drastically revised when they talk to me in a one-on-one situation.

So I don't know what, if any, category people would put me in. But really I'm not that bothered. As for men giving me preferential treatment, I wouldn't ever think to expect it, but I wouldn't be offended by it or anything. Except for ordering for me in a restaurant, that would be strange. It's not something I've had too much experience with, definitely more common with rural men though I think.

MissFlitworth

The only person I know who fell neatly into either a lady or a ladette category would be my grannies who were very ladylike. I do think if they'd grown up in a different time though they'd have straddled the lady-ladette fence a lot more. Couldn't think of anyone amongst my friends who would be either a lady or a ladette, we're all ladyettes to one degress or another! (which sounds like a sanitary towel)