ROTR......what are they :confused:

celticbest

Driving along the M50 this morning I spotted a Mobile Speed Van cruising along in Lane 2 even though Lane 1 was empty, if this is an example to other people of how to follow the rules of the road ( keep left on a Motorway) then it a clear example of those enforcing Laws not obeying them.



I have to say one of my pet hate is people not obeying the kept left rule and then to see those enforing roads laws not obeying them themselves just take the biscuit.

THAT'S MY RANT OVER.........

PS. before anyone comes back on above, I was in lane three overtaking and also my camera is dash mounted so I only have to press a button to take a picture, same as hands free on a Mobile.......

BrianD

But you must have from Lane 2 then as well if you had just performed an over taking manoeuver?

Personally I'm a keep left unless overtaking man but on a 3-laner I will use lane 2 as well but never 3 unless over taking

corktina

BrianD wrote: »

But you must have from Lane 2 then as well if you had just performed an over taking manoeuver?

Personally I'm a keep left unless overtaking man but on a 3-laner I will use lane 2 as well but never 3 unless over taking

if you are a "keep left man" why do you block lane 2 ? You force REAL keep left men using lane 1 and catching you up to move right out to lane 3 to pass you. I cant understand doing that. Keep left means the leftmost available lane and as that photo clearly shows that is usually lane 1. Lanes 2 and 3 are both for overtaking, lane 1 is the driving lane.

celticbest

BrianD wrote: »

But you must have from Lane 2 then as well if you had just performed an over taking manoeuver?

Personally I'm a keep left unless overtaking man but on a 3-laner I will use lane 2 as well but never 3 unless over taking

I agree that you should keep left if possible, but after previous discussions on boards I was informed that it is illegal to undertake on a Motorway. So I had to go from Lane 1 to 3 and back to 1 in order to overtake.

Use of Lanes two and three are for the same purpose, Lane 2 should only be used to overtake slower moving traffic in Lane 1 & lane 3 is to be used only for overtaking slower moving traffic in Lanes 1 & 2, if more people drove our Motorways correctly then the traffic would move far better.

Cookie_Monster

sure that guy is just another numpty working for a money printing firm, nothing to do with AGS or anyone else in a place of responsibility

AlekSmart

celticbest wrote: »

I agree that you should keep left if possible, but after previous discussions on boards I was informed that it is illegal to undertake on a Motorway. So I had to go from Lane 1 to 3 and back to 1 in order to overtake.

Use of Lanes two and three are for the same purpose, Lane 2 should only be used to overtake slower moving traffic in Lane 1 & lane 3 is to be used only for overtaking slower moving traffic in Lanes 1 & 2, if more people drove our Motorways correctly then the traffic would move far better.

Hi Celticbest,could you elaborate on the bolded bit ?

As expected the Irish RoTR are suitably vague in the exact areas which need to be clear....

http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/motorways/on-the-motorway.html

Lane 2

On a two-lane motorway, use this for overtaking only and move back into lane 1 when you have finished. You may also use this lane to accommodate traffic merging from the left.

On a three-lane motorway, you may stay in this centre lane while there is slower moving traffic in lane 1.

A lot can hinge on defining "Slower Moving".....

Overtaking

Overtake only on the right, unless traffic is travelling in slow moving queues and the traffic queue on your right is travelling more slowly than you are.

I would imagine that our Legal Proffessionals would expend much time,energy and money on arguing what constitutes "slow moving" or "more slowly" (OT,but am I getting a bad grammar vibe from someplace...?)

Just realized that the word "Queue" is also up for grabs here.....

Am I correct in thinking that the pictured location is adjacent to the Ikea on-ramp ?

I'd be surprised if the revenue-gatherer did'nt argue that he was positioning to facilitate other mororists joining the Motorway ?

It's a good point though and one which has worsened since the triple-laning of the M50,an event which proceeded without any attempt at mass-marketing the very important change on-site,so a substantial number of regular M50 users still haven't noticed that other lane yet.....:rolleyes:

Stark

I think you're really grasping for straws if you're trying to make out that free-flowing traffic constitutes a "queue". It's clear enough from the rules of the road that overtaking on the left is illegal. A queue of traffic would be where you were waiting for the lights at Newland's cross for instance. That said, from a practical point of view it is often easier to overtake on the left. Especially as I've noticed a lot of aggression from middle lane morons if you do the "cross two lanes behind, cross two lanes in front" manoeuvre to get past them.

slowly means slowly, not 2 kph slower than you
don't undertake on a motorway

corktina

im a bit lost...he said it was ILLEGAL not LEGAL...

Aard

I can't remember seeing any lately, but I'd hope that the RSA air 'infomercials' on how to do two specific things on a motorway:

1. Keep left -- perhaps highlighting that if you don't you're pretty much forcing other drivers to make an illegal manoeuvre

2. Zip merging -- not sure if there are any laws on merging apart from priority, but so many people sail into lane 2 (even when there's ample room for the merging car) and often into the path of a 120km car that would catch up fast.

etchyed

n97 mini wrote: »

Your photograph says it was taken with a Samsung Omnia 7 GT-I8700 mobile phone. (It's in the EXIF data for all to see)

Either your camera is telling lies or you are!

lol

n97 mini

celticbest wrote: »

PS. before anyone comes back on above, I was in lane three overtaking and also my camera is dash mounted so I only have to press a button to take a picture, same as hands free on a Mobile.......

The EXIF data in your photograph says it was taken with a Samsung Omnia 7 GT-I8700 mobile phone.

Either your camera is telling lies or you are!

AlekSmart

Stark wrote: »

I think you're really grasping for straws if you're trying to make out that free-flowing traffic constitutes a "queue". It's clear enough from the rules of the road that overtaking on the left is illegal. A queue of traffic would be where you were waiting for the lights at Newland's cross for instance. That said, from a practical point of view it is often easier to overtake on the left. Especially as I've noticed a lot of aggression from middle lane morons if you do the "cross two lanes behind, cross two lanes in front" manoeuvre to get past them.

Agreed Stark,however such straws will be grasped,not by myself but for sure by somebody needing to avoid a 12 pointer.

That said I'd agree 100% with the bolded comment which I see in action each and every day along the M50.....Anger Management please Q here !! :eek:

BrianD

corktina wrote: »

if you are a "keep left man" why do you block lane 2 ? You force REAL keep left men using lane 1 and catching you up to move right out to lane 3 to pass you. I cant understand doing that. Keep left means the leftmost available lane and as that photo clearly shows that is usually lane 1. Lanes 2 and 3 are both for overtaking, lane 1 is the driving lane.

You are wrong in all your assumptions. The ROTR states that:
"On a three-lane motorway, you may stay in this centre lane while there is slower moving traffic in lane 1." Use of Lane 2 does not imply blocking it. So please don't make ridiculous assumptions.

On the M50 the speed limit on the 3 lane section is 100k, slow moving traffic in lane 1 so invariably you'll end in lane 2 if you want to make progress. You can quickly establish when you are driving if this traffic is slower moving as you'll have to weave continuously in and out of it. There's also common sense within the rules of the road,

The OP claims that lane 1 was empty and the photo shows that it is. What we don't see is what was behind him. It's quite possible that Mr. Camera Van had moved into Lane 2 to pass slow moving traffic. Or something that can happen to most of us, just forgot to move back in. He also claims that the pic was taken with a dash mounted camera which has shown to be incorrect - also if you look at the pic, I can see a big chunk of the dash.

corktina

BrianD wrote: »

You are wrong in all your assumptions. The ROTR states that:
"On a three-lane motorway, you may stay in this centre lane while there is slower moving traffic in lane 1." Use of Lane 2 does not imply blocking it. So please don't make ridiculous assumptions.

.

you said "will use lane 2 as well but never 3 unless over taking " when surely you should have said "never lane 2 OR 3 unless overtaking" Ive no issue with you using lane 2 if theres slower traffic in lane 1 to be overtaken, but thats not what you said initially.

Hogzy

n97 mini wrote: »

The EXIF data in your photograph says it was taken with a Samsung Omnia 7 GT-I8700 mobile phone.

Either your camera is telling lies or you are!

Have you ever heard of a dash mount? :rolleyes:

schemingbohemia

BrianD wrote: »

You are wrong in all your assumptions. The ROTR states that:
"On a three-lane motorway, you may stay in this centre lane while there is slower moving traffic in lane 1." Use of Lane 2 does not imply blocking it. So please don't make ridiculous assumptions.

On the M50 the speed limit on the 3 lane section is 100k, slow moving traffic in lane 1 so invariably you'll end in lane 2 if you want to make progress. You can quickly establish when you are driving if this traffic is slower moving as you'll have to weave continuously in and out of it. There's also common sense within the rules of the road,

The OP claims that lane 1 was empty and the photo shows that it is. What we don't see is what was behind him. It's quite possible that Mr. Camera Van had moved into Lane 2 to pass slow moving traffic. Or something that can happen to most of us, just forgot to move back in. He also claims that the pic was taken with a dash mounted camera which has shown to be incorrect - also if you look at the pic, I can see a big chunk of the dash.

I'm not sure that constitutes a defence!

How many times have you seen people meandering in the middle lane not having overtaken anyone in living memory*? I see it all the time.

OT but I nearly collided into the back of a middle lane driver on the way down to the electric picnic who thought it would be a good idea to slam on the brakes to try and get into the petrol station he had just spotted even though it was obvious to anyone with a brain a mile beforehand.

AlekSmart

schemingbohemia wrote: »

I'm not sure that constitutes a defence!

How many times have you seen people meandering in the middle lane not having overtaken anyone in living memory*? I see it all the time.

OT but I nearly collided into the back of a middle lane driver on the way down to the electric picnic who thought it would be a good idea to slam on the brakes to try and get into the petrol station he had just spotted even though it was obvious to anyone with a brain a mile beforehand.

Well if it suited your scheme of things sBohemia,make it your business to hover about,what purports to be,the M50-M4 interchange,particularly when travelling Southbound on the M50.....I can guarantee you a Phil Lynott Afro each and every trip.....In fact I think we need a live web-cam erected there just to keep us focused.....

foggy_lad

Aard wrote: »

I can't remember seeing any lately, but I'd hope that the RSA air 'infomercials' on how to do two specific things on a motorway:

1. Keep left -- perhaps highlighting that if you don't you're pretty much forcing other drivers to make an illegal manoeuvre

2. Zip merging -- not sure if there are any laws on merging apart from priority, but so many people sail into lane 2 (even when there's ample room for the merging car) and often into the path of a 120km car that would catch up fast.

Many people when entering a motorway or carriageway using slip roads and merging lanes will slow down instead of speeding up to match the speed of traffic they want to join:eek:

Hilly Bill

From where the pic is taken, the middle lane is the safer place to be seeing that the on ramp is just ahead and with it the possibility of having to move into the middle lane to allow cars to enter the M50.
Personally i think the OP should have paid more attention to their driving and not be taking pictures in the fast lane. The OP is over reacting just because its a speed van seeing that they said nothing about the car in front.
I cant see an issue with anyone travelling in the middle lane when the slow lane is free because i can overtake on either side, its no big deal.
Did the OP think that maybe the Van was passing a car in the slow lane?

AlekSmart

foggy_lad wrote: »

Many people when entering a motorway or carriageway using slip roads and merging lanes will slow down instead of speeding up to match the speed of traffic they want to join:eek:

Very true indeed Foggy_Lad,however the essential problem is not the actual velocities involved,but the attitudes prevailing.

There appears to be a very definite streak of aggression surrounding the average Irish driver,which is racked up to the Nth degree when they are expected to interact with other road users.

This is most obvious at locations such as Slip Roads,Junctions or Traffic Lights.

I well remember my first visit to the UK as a motorcyclist left me wondering if I was doing something wrong,as I found making progress so much easier due to a far greater level of cooperative awareness being displayed by car drivers.

It's not generally a good idea to generalize (:D),but now after many years of to'ing and fro'ing across the Irish Sea I still have to mentally prepare myself for the,sometimes brutal realization that I'm home,as I bounce and weave up along the North Wall.......:)

markpb

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I cant see an issue with anyone travelling in the middle lane when the slow lane is free because i can overtake on either side, its no big deal.

You know that overtaking on the left is illegal and potentially dangerous?

slimjimmc

Hilly Bill wrote: »

From where the pic is taken, the middle lane is the safer place to be seeing that the on ramp is just ahead and with it the possibility of having to move into the middle lane to allow cars to enter the M50.

How is keeping in the leftmost driving lane (no such thing as slow lane) any more dangerous? If you've got your eyes open you'll see if anyone is coming down the on-ramp and adjust your speed and/or position accordingly in a safe manner, it's a basic driving skill.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Personally i think the OP should have paid more attention to their driving and not be taking pictures in the fast lane. The OP is over reacting just because its a speed van seeing that they said nothing about the car in front.

Perhaps all the cars in the picture are using the lanes correctly, i.e. to overtake. Perhaps the car in lane 2 had just completed it's overtake of the van and is about to progress to lane 1 safely (you don't swing straight across 3 lanes). In other words you're making an assumption, only the OP can confirm.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I cant see an issue with anyone travelling in the middle lane when the slow lane is free because i can overtake on either side, its no big deal.
Did the OP think that maybe the Van was passing a car in the slow lane?

First sentence already covered by markpb.
Second sentence already covered in the OP :

celticbest wrote: »

even though Lane 1 was empty

AlekSmart

Aard wrote: »

I can't remember seeing any lately, but I'd hope that the RSA air 'infomercials' on how to do two specific things on a motorway:

If it does anything,this thread should be appearing on the RSA radar to inform them of a substantial,and potentially fatal,gap in their ability to disseminate correct information.

It also,if anything,confirms our comfort with the less complex thinghs in life....;)

Hilly Bill

markpb wrote: »

You know that overtaking on the left is illegal and potentially dangerous?

no its not, if the lane is clear and the other 2 lanes are going slower and you stay in the slow lane.

it's not the slow lane it's the driving lane, and it's dangerous.

Hilly Bill

slimjimmc wrote: »

How is keeping in the leftmost driving lane (no such thing as slow lane) any more dangerous? If you've got your eyes open you'll see if anyone is coming down the on-ramp and adjust your speed and/or position accordingly in a safe manner, it's a basic driving skill.


Perhaps all the cars in the picture are using the lanes correctly, i.e. to overtake. Perhaps the car in lane 2 had just completed it's overtake of the van and is about to progress to lane 1 safely (you don't swing straight across 3 lanes). In other words you're making an assumption, only the OP can confirm.


First sentence already covered by markpb.
Second sentence already covered in the OP :

Adjusting your postition means moving over a lane so that a car can enter the motorway, a lot of cars just pull out regardless if a car is already in that lane so moving over a lane is safer . who said anything about swinging across 3 lanes?

Hilly Bill

bluewolf wrote: »

it's not the slow lane it's the driving lane, and it's dangerous.

What does it matter what its called, they are all driving lanes with the first one being for the slower moving vehicles .

BrianD

corktina wrote: »

you said "will use lane 2 as well but never 3 unless over taking " when surely you should have said "never lane 2 OR 3 unless overtaking" Ive no issue with you using lane 2 if theres slower traffic in lane 1 to be overtaken, but thats not what you said initially.

Will allow me to clarify this for you. I will use lane 2 if through situational awareness I deem lane 1 to be slower moving and would result in continuous overtaking. Happy now?

Going back to the OP. Really we have a snapshot that the OP has put commentary on. I really think that there is "nothing to see here".

I do find the pace of lane 1 great for setting up all my onboard photography equipment!

slimjimmc

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Adjusting your postition means moving over a lane so that a car can enter the motorway, a lot of cars just pull out regardless if a car is already in that lane so moving over a lane is safer . who said anything about swinging across 3 lanes?

Of course adjusting position includes changing lane but it also includes changing your position within the lane by slowing/speeding up in advance to allow the other car merge safely. All can be done safely, it just means you have to be aware of your surroundings which shouldn't be a problem.

Moving over to allow merging traffic enter the road unhindered is good practice but not when done too early.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

no its not, if the lane is clear and the other 2 lanes are going slower and you stay in the slow lane.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

What does it matter what its called, they are all driving lanes with the first one being for the slower moving vehicles .

You can overtake on the left when the traffic on the right is moving in slow (not slower) moving queues, not simply when they are going slower than you. That does not give you carte blanc to overtake on the left because your doing 120 km/h and the guy on your right is doing 100km/h. All vehicles regardless of speed are required to stay left (lane #1) and only move out to overtake and move back. If lane #1 is busy you may stay in lane #2 but you're required to return to lane #1 when it frees up again. Lane #3 is an overtaking lane only and not a driving lane.


I can't believe all drivers don't know this already, it's basic RoR.

the groutch

that photo is taken from lane 3, the ironing is delicious

Cookie_Monster

the groutch wrote: »

that photo is taken from lane 3, the ironing is delicious

how, he was overtaking the guy in lane 2...

Guy:Incognito

Hilly Bill wrote: »

From where the pic is taken, the middle lane is the safer place to be seeing that the on ramp is just ahead and with it the possibility of having to move into the middle lane to allow cars to enter the M50.

Doesnt matter how heavy the traffic is, if everyone keeps a proper gap theres no need to move anywhere to allow cars to merge, they should simpel slip in between the cars and everyone can then readjust the gaps.


Problems emerge when idiots do things like all try get in to the right lane of the on ramps that ends abruptly with a small gap instead of staying in the left one and having the whoel distance to the next junction to merge on to the cariageway. Every junction, without fail, a group of cars all try to merge out on to the main carriageway in the 20 m gap. Gob****es. Half them are even braking and divign in to lanes of traffic just to get in to the right hand lane of the slip. What do these peopel think will happen if they continue in the left lane? Fall off the edge of the world? Most of the time I end up ahead of the whole lot of them by staying in the left and mergeing further up with loads of space.

Plus I've yet to be on the M50 (I use it everyday, mostly just to go Tallght - Clondalkin) without there being cars going well under the speed limit int he middle lane. More idiots.

slimjimmc wrote: »

How is keeping in the leftmost driving lane (no such thing as slow lane) any more dangerous? If you've got your eyes open you'll see if anyone is coming down the on-ramp and adjust your speed and/or position accordingly in a safe manner, it's a basic driving skill.
:

Its them that should be adjusting their speed for the traffic thats on the motorway, not the other way round.(asuming your actually doing the proper speed of course)

murphaph

AlekSmart wrote: »

Hi Celticbest,could you elaborate on the bolded bit ?

As expected the Irish RoTR are suitably vague in the exact areas which need to be clear....

Compare and contrast to Germany where as many explicit cases are mentioned and laid down in cold hard law.

On a German Autobahn you may only pass vehicles on the right (note: NOT overtake) when the queue to your left is moving at a maximum of 60km/h and your queue is moving no more than 20km/h faster than their queue, otherwise you must change lanes and actually overtake to the left.

You may also overtake on the right in some limited cases (the acceleration lane when entering the Autobahn, for example).

BrianD

On a tangent - I've only ever seen one of these vans in operation. However, I'm seeing more "official" Garda vans doing this work. Some are marked as Garda vans others are unmarked.

Have some of these vehicles been "rebranded"?

Hilly Bill

slimjimmc wrote: »

Of course adjusting position includes changing lane but it also includes changing your position within the lane by slowing/speeding up in advance to allow the other car merge safely. All can be done safely, it just means you have to be aware of your surroundings which shouldn't be a problem.

Moving over to allow merging traffic enter the road unhindered is good practice but not when done too early.







You can overtake on the left when the traffic on the right is moving in slow (not slower) moving queues, not simply when they are going slower than you. That does not give you carte blanc to overtake on the left because your doing 120 km/h and the guy on your right is doing 100km/h. All vehicles regardless of speed are required to stay left (lane #1) and only move out to overtake and move back. If lane #1 is busy you may stay in lane #2 but you're required to return to lane #1 when it frees up again. Lane #3 is an overtaking lane only and not a driving lane.


I can't believe all drivers don't know this already, it's basic RoR.

What do you mean its not a driving lane? do i have to overtake on foot?
Most drivers know the rules but choose to ignore them plus not many have driver etiquette .
If im in the middle lane and come up to a car going slower and the second overtaking lane is busy. Do you expect me to just drive along behind the slow moving car or use my head and move into the first lane if it is free?

Hilly Bill

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Doesnt matter how heavy the traffic is, if everyone keeps a proper gap theres no need to move anywhere to allow cars to merge, they should simpel slip in between the cars and everyone can then readjust the gaps.

Its easier said than done. You could leave a proper gap and someone will move into it from the second lane or by the time you reach the slip road a car would be side by side with you and you wont know what it will do next. To slow down wouldnt be enough to let it in and breaking could cause an accident depending on whats behind you. Gain speed and the car on the slip road could do the same and it could plough into you so moving over to the middle lane is the safer bet if its free. If its busy the you might not be able to move over and you just hope that the cars merging have seen you and merge safely.

AlekSmart

murphaph wrote: »

Compare and contrast to Germany where as many explicit cases are mentioned and laid down in cold hard law.

On a German Autobahn you may only pass vehicles on the right (note: NOT overtake) when the queue to your left is moving at a maximum of 60km/h and your queue is moving no more than 20km/h faster than their queue, otherwise you must change lanes and actually overtake to the left.

You may also overtake on the right in some limited cases (the acceleration lane when entering the Autobahn, for example).

Oh Dear Murphaph....not again...;)

Have these Teutonic types no imagination ?

Gosh,but their lives must be so dull what with not being able to have "the craic" on the oul motorway like we do...?

I'll bet the Greeks have a better way of doin it....:)

slimjimmc

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

:
:
Its them that should be adjusting their speed for the traffic thats on the motorway, not the other way round.(asuming your actually doing the proper speed of course)

Indeed, traffic already on the road has right of way and joining traffic must yield, however if a little bit of defensive awareness and common sense is all that is needed avoid getting yourself into a sticky situation, why not apply it?

Hilly Bill wrote: »

What do you mean its not a driving lane? do i have to overtake on foot?
Most drivers know the rules but choose to ignore them plus not many have driver etiquette .

LOL. and yes plenty do ignore the rules. Doesn't change the rules though

Hilly Bill wrote: »

If im in the middle lane and come up to a car going slower and the second overtaking lane is busy. Do you expect me to just drive along behind the slow moving car or use my head and move into the first lane if it is free?

The law expects you to do exactly that... only overtake on the right.

Hilly Bill

So you would stay behind a slow moving car for miles in the middle instead of moving into the first lane if there is room to do so safely and the fast lane is busy ?

MadsL

Incredible patience on the part of the OP. I must admit I'm of the flash once from 150m away, flash again if they haven't moved over from 50m and then (if I'm feeling cranky) prelonged flash up the arse as I move over to lane 3, I then immediately move back to lane 1 and hit the hazards once to say "This fking lane you moron" :eek:

But then I learnt to drive in the UK where this is accepted behaviour when encountering a twonk who can't figure out which lane is appropriate (or more likely is having the craic on his mobile)

Drive with utmost courtesy at all time kids!! :P

murphaph

MadsL wrote: »

Incredible patience on the part of the OP. I must admit I'm of the flash once from 150m away, flash again if they haven't moved over from 50m and then (if I'm feeling cranky) prelonged flash up the arse as I move over to lane 3, I then immediately move back to lane 1 and hit the hazards once to say "This fking lane you moron" :eek:

But then I learnt to drive in the UK where this is accepted behaviour when encountering a twonk who can't figure out which lane is appropriate (or more likely is having the craic on his mobile)

Drive with utmost courtesy at all time kids!! :P

I understand your pain, but in Germany flashing the headlights to get someone to move over is 3 points and a possible 1 month ban! Is it not points in the UK too?

ongarboy

Hilly Bill wrote: »

What do you mean its not a driving lane? do i have to overtake on foot?
Most drivers know the rules but choose to ignore them plus not many have driver etiquette .
If im in the middle lane and come up to a car going slower and the second overtaking lane is busy. Do you expect me to just drive along behind the slow moving car or use my head and move into the first lane if it is free?

Hilly Bill, you seem to be missing the point as to why it is incorrect and dangerous to undertake on Lane 1. Rules are not made up just to annoy people in a hurry – they are devised to save lives and prevent injury. Lane 1 is used by all those joining the motorway from slip roads or as in the case of the Naas Road, petrol stations/other access points. Some of those motorists are entering the Mway at low speeds ( Ideally, they should have built up the speeds to mirror existing traffic before joining the lane but if you are stuck behind someone entering an Mway at 50kph, you will also be forced to merge at that same slow speed. If most drivers used your logic of using that lane to undertake at 120kph just because lane 2 drivers were only doing 110kph and lane 3 was only doing 118kph, you are creating scenarios for lethal collisions with such slower moving traffic merging from said merging lanes/petrol stations/other access points.

You might argue that they shouldn’t merge unless it’s safe to do so but if you have 30 plus slow cars coming off a slip road at 30kph caused by one slow lead car, you can have situations where such merging motorists run out of slip road (eg Mways that do not have auxiliary lanes) and will be forced to merge at slow speeds. I’ve often seen such flying along under-takers having to slam the breaks in these scenarios. This would not happen on the outer (correct) overtaking lane (as often) as you are not encountering such access/merging traffic.

You also say it’s fine to undertake as long as it’s safe/clear but if you are speeding by at 120kph on Lane 1 and there is a merging lane around the corner, often you will not see traffic coming off the slip road until the last few seconds. If you have to jam the breaks, what about the dozen undertaking drivers behind you also driving faster than lane 2/3 drivers who also would be using your logic of it’s ok to undertake at maximum Mway speeds? Would they share the same instant brake jam reflex as you in such a scenario? Would they all even adhere to the speed limit on the inner lane?

We all have our own perceived “safest” way of driving which sometimes may be at odds with the ROTR but if international best practice rules dictate through proven results, the safest way to drive, this is what we need to adhere to even if it conflicts with how we think the safest way is. By following the ROTR, you are reducing the chance of death or injury to yourself and other road users. By ignoring the ROTR, you are increasing those chances…simple as!

Stark

ongarboy wrote:

Hilly Bill, you seem to be missing the point as to why it is incorrect and dangerous to undertake on Lane 1. Rules are not made up just to annoy people in a hurry – they are devised to save lives and prevent injury. Lane 1 is used by all those joining the motorway from slip roads or as in the case of the Naas Road, petrol stations/other access points. Some of those motorists are entering the Mway at low speeds ( Ideally, they should have built up the speeds to mirror existing traffic before joining the lane but if you are stuck behind someone entering an Mway at 50kph, you will also be forced to merge at that same slow speed. If most drivers used your logic of using that lane to undertake at 120kph just because lane 2 drivers were only doing 110kph and lane 3 was only doing 118kph, you are creating scenarios for lethal collisions with such slower moving traffic merging from said merging lanes/petrol stations/other access points.

The rules of the road say to keep in lane 1 unless overtaking. If everyone followed your logic, then no-one would ever drive in lane 1, thus disobeying the ROTR. (Oh wait, they don't).

ongarboy wrote:

You might argue that they shouldn’t merge unless it’s safe to do so but if you have 30 plus slow cars coming off a slip road at 30kph caused by one slow lead car, you can have situations where such merging motorists run out of slip road (eg Mways that do not have auxiliary lanes) and will be forced to merge at slow speeds. I’ve often seen such flying along under-takers having to slam the breaks in these scenarios. This would not happen on the outer (correct) overtaking lane (as often) as you are not encountering such access/merging traffic.

Those drivers entering the motorway should obey the mighty ROTR and give way to traffic already on the motorway.

ongarboy wrote:

You also say it’s fine to undertake as long as it’s safe/clear but if you are speeding by at 120kph on Lane 1 and there is a merging lane around the corner, often you will not see traffic coming off the slip road until the last few seconds. If you have to jam the breaks, what about the dozen undertaking drivers behind you also driving faster than lane 2/3 drivers who also would be using your logic of it’s ok to undertake at maximum Mway speeds? Would they share the same instant brake jam reflex as you in such a scenario? Would they all even adhere to the speed limit on the inner lane?

Pretty much every motorway including the M50 is designed so that you can see traffic entering the motorway in advance enough to stop from 120km/hr if necessary. (The Naas road isn't motorway due to the petrol stations and private accesses).

ongarboy wrote:

We all have our own perceived “safest” way of driving which sometimes may be at odds with the ROTR but if international best practice rules dictate through proven results, the safest way to drive, this is what we need to adhere to even if it conflicts with how we think the safest way is. By following the ROTR, you are reducing the chance of death or injury to yourself and other road users. By ignoring the ROTR, you are increasing those chances…simple as!

If people followed the RotR in the first place and drove in lane 1 when it was clear, other drivers wouldn't be forced into bending the rules to work around those drivers.

Hilly Bill

ongarboy wrote: »

Hilly Bill, you seem to be missing the point as to why it is incorrect and dangerous to undertake on Lane 1. Rules are not made up just to annoy people in a hurry – they are devised to save lives and prevent injury. Lane 1 is used by all those joining the motorway from slip roads or as in the case of the Naas Road, petrol stations/other access points. Some of those motorists are entering the Mway at low speeds ( Ideally, they should have built up the speeds to mirror existing traffic before joining the lane but if you are stuck behind someone entering an Mway at 50kph, you will also be forced to merge at that same slow speed. If most drivers used your logic of using that lane to undertake at 120kph just because lane 2 drivers were only doing 110kph and lane 3 was only doing 118kph, you are creating scenarios for lethal collisions with such slower moving traffic merging from said merging lanes/petrol stations/other access points.

You might argue that they shouldn’t merge unless it’s safe to do so but if you have 30 plus slow cars coming off a slip road at 30kph caused by one slow lead car, you can have situations where such merging motorists run out of slip road (eg Mways that do not have auxiliary lanes) and will be forced to merge at slow speeds. I’ve often seen such flying along under-takers having to slam the breaks in these scenarios. This would not happen on the outer (correct) overtaking lane (as often) as you are not encountering such access/merging traffic.

You also say it’s fine to undertake as long as it’s safe/clear but if you are speeding by at 120kph on Lane 1 and there is a merging lane around the corner, often you will not see traffic coming off the slip road until the last few seconds. If you have to jam the breaks, what about the dozen undertaking drivers behind you also driving faster than lane 2/3 drivers who also would be using your logic of it’s ok to undertake at maximum Mway speeds? Would they share the same instant brake jam reflex as you in such a scenario? Would they all even adhere to the speed limit on the inner lane?

We all have our own perceived “safest” way of driving which sometimes may be at odds with the ROTR but if international best practice rules dictate through proven results, the safest way to drive, this is what we need to adhere to even if it conflicts with how we think the safest way is. By following the ROTR, you are reducing the chance of death or injury to yourself and other road users. By ignoring the ROTR, you are increasing those chances…simple as!

Nice rant ongarboy . I havent missed any point but im confused to where you came up with my logic from seeing that i havent said anything about undertaking at the max speed.
Is it illegal to move from the middle lane into the first? No its not. Is there a slower speed limit for driving in the first lane? no there isnt. Is it illegal to drive faster in the first lane than a vehicle in the middle lane? no its not .
I havent mentioned anything about flying in and out of traffic on both sides at high speed which is just plain stupid along with taking pictures with a phone in the fast lane whilst overtaking.

markpb

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Is it illegal to move from the middle lane into the first? No its not.

Yes. You're undertaking\overtaking on the left which is illegal in most circumstances. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

Grolschevik

markpb wrote: »

Yes. You're undertaking\overtaking on the left which is illegal in most circumstances. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

I think you meant to quote this bit:
"Is it illegal to drive faster in the first lane than a vehicle in the middle lane?"

Hilly Bill

Mark ,What are you on about? there is a load of posts on here saying that you should drive in the first lane when possible yet you say its illegal to do so. Its the motorway we are taking about not some main road.
So let me get this straight, if i was in the middle lane and want to move into the first lane i can only do so if i dont pass any cars in the middle lane for the rest of my journey ?
Can you understand how silly that is?

Grolschevik

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Mark ,What are you on about? there is a load of posts on here saying that you should drive in the first lane when possible yet you say its illegal to do so. Its the motorway we are taking about not some main road.
So let me get this straight, if i was in the middle lane and want to move into the first lane i can only do so if i dont pass any cars in the middle lane for the rest of my journey ?
Can you understand how silly that is?

I agree that it's a ridiculous situation that all three lanes of a motorway can be effectively limited (in the absence of illegal undertaking) to the 60km/h that Willie Joe McFudgeon is tootling along at in Lane 3. However, that appears to be the law as outlined in the ROTR: Undertaking at anything more than a slow crawling queue is illegal.

What this effectively means is that, if you're in Lane 1 and come up to a Lane 2 hogger who is going slower than you, to pass legally, you must move from Lane 1 into Lane 2 behind the hogger, then from Lane 2 to Lane 3 to pass the hogger, then back to Lane 2 and then to Lane 1. Only when it is safe to do so, of course.

There may be situations where there's a slow Lane 3 hogger as well, of course. The Rules are silent on this scenario, except for the explicit "no undertaking" one. Threads in the Motors forum suggest that the only solution is to move into Lane 3 and wait behind that hogger (keeping a safe distance, of course!) until he realises the error of his ways...

Hilly Bill

Grolschevik wrote: »

I agree that it's a ridiculous situation that all three lanes of a motorway can be effectively limited (in the absence of illegal undertaking) to the 60km/h that Willie Joe McFudgeon is tootling along at in Lane 3. However, that appears to be the law as outlined in the ROTR: Undertaking at anything more than a slow crawling queue is illegal.

What this effectively means is that, if you're in Lane 1 and come up to a Lane 2 hogger who is going slower than you, to pass legally, you must move from Lane 1 into Lane 2 behind the hogger, then from Lane 2 to Lane 3 to pass the hogger, then back to Lane 2 and then to Lane 1. Only when it is safe to do so, of course.

There may be situations where there's a slow Lane 3 hogger as well, of course. The Rules are silent on this scenario, except for the explicit "no undertaking" one. Threads in the Motors forum suggest that the only solution is to move into Lane 3 and wait behind that hogger (keeping a safe distance, of course!) until he realises the error of his ways...

To be fair, to make that movement the driver would have to be pretty dumb or a stickler for the rules when the lane he/she was was already free and safer than crossing 2 lanes to overtake and 2 lanes to get back to where they were .
As for keeping a safe distance , its hard to do so on the multi-laned roads in Ireland. Once you leave a safe gap then someone will move into it from another lane , leave another gap and another car will move in and you will get nowhere . This happens when the road conditions are bad as well.

Grolschevik

Hilly Bill wrote: »

To be fair, to make that movement the driver would have to be pretty dumb or a stickler for the rules when the lane he/she was was already free and safer than crossing 2 lanes to overtake and 2 lanes to get back to where they were .
As for keeping a safe distance , its hard to do so on the multi-laned roads in Ireland. Once you leave a safe gap then someone will move into it from another lane , leave another gap and another car will move in and you will get nowhere . This happens when the road conditions are bad as well.

I agree, and I'd say it's a rare person who follows that procedure, but -- apparently -- that's what you should do.

Of course, given that the hoggers shouldn't be tootling along in 3 or 2, you could argue that all bets are off, as it's a situation that the ROTR envisages shouldn't happen... Not sure who a guard would pull over: you for undertaking, or Willie Joe for tootling.

As to safe distance, it depends a lot on road and time of day.