What Should Ireland aspire to be as a country?

mike65

Don't forget Lego and insulin Denmark is the sort of country Ireland should have aspired to be rather than something between New Zealand and Scotland.

matthew8

mike65 wrote: »

Don't forget Lego and insulin Denmark is the sort of country Ireland should have aspired to be rather than something between New Zealand and Scotland.

New Zealand's south island is pretty much Scotland so being inbetween New Zealand and Scotland would pretty much be no different to New Zealand. Why don't we just aspire to be a country that has a strong manufacturing industry AND farmers who can send their lamb around the world without subsidies?

Can anyone fill me in these parties' stances on the issues? It's also strange that BNP-lite count as conservative in Denmark, considering the BNP are labour-lite.

Dr Galen

So.....

the two posts that I have copied in from the Denmark elections thread got me thinking. What sort of country should Ireland be aspiring to be? Seeing as we are pretty much back to scratch again, you would think that now would be a great time to see past the "knowledge" economy crapola, and seek to redefine what we stand for, the types of businesses we look to foster and grow and the type of society that we would wish to become.

I see a lot of people talk about the Nordic countries, their public services and such. Personally I'd feel that for that to work it would require a huge cultural shift, not only one of government and it's priorities. I also think that a lot of people talk about the Nordic way, as some sort of panacea to all our ills, without knowing a huge amount about how those countries operate, i.e. high taxes.

So what do people think?

laoch na mona

a champion for international justice and an equal society

anymore

Dr Galen wrote: »

So.....

the two posts that I have copied in from the Denmark elections thread got me thinking. What sort of country should Ireland be aspiring to be? Seeing as we are pretty much back to scratch again, you would think that now would be a great time to see past the "knowledge" economy crapola, and seek to redefine what we stand for, the types of businesses we look to foster and grow and the type of society that we would wish to become.

I see a lot of people talk about the Nordic countries, their public services and such. Personally I'd feel that for that to work it would require a huge cultural shift, not only one of government and it's priorities. I also think that a lot of people talk about the Nordic way, as some sort of panacea to all our ills, without knowing a huge amount about how those countries operate, i.e. high taxes.

So what do people think?

Don't worry, they are talking about the Nordic Way just as they used to talk about Zero Tolerance. In a couple of months a new buzz word/phrase will have come along.

irishh_bob

laoch na mona wrote: »

a champion for international justice and an equal society

bar the irish times reading middle class liberals of D4, us irish dont do high mindedness

junder

Dr Galen wrote: »

So.....

the two posts that I have copied in from the Denmark elections thread got me thinking. What sort of country should Ireland be aspiring to be? Seeing as we are pretty much back to scratch again, you would think that now would be a great time to see past the "knowledge" economy crapola, and seek to redefine what we stand for, the types of businesses we look to foster and grow and the type of society that we would wish to become.

I see a lot of people talk about the Nordic countries, their public services and such. Personally I'd feel that for that to work it would require a huge cultural shift, not only one of government and it's priorities. I also think that a lot of people talk about the Nordic way, as some sort of panacea to all our ills, without knowing a huge amount about how those countries operate, i.e. high taxes.

So what do people think?

A 26 county republic

Foghladh

I've spent a large amount of time in Sweden and I must say I love the country and I do like certain aspects of their system but have found others a little cloying. Two of my kids were born within their health system and it is second to none. My last child was 10 weeks premature and the care was amazing, not only the medical care for the child but for me as a dad as well. Neo-natal units of 4 incubators, with 4 double rooms off each unit where the parents stayed for the term of care, all with full board included. And free of charge to Swedish citizens although Paddy here got charged the excessive price of 20 euro per night Public transport is fantastic and efficient. Roads are superb. It even snows at christmas. But...

I've always felt it a little claustophobic.

As mentioned the tax rate can be high for middle income earners. I can't remember the exact figures but if I recall it can be up to 50% for anything over 40,000 euro (exchange rate dependant). Higher income earners will pay up to around 55% and the lower band was about 30%. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on those, it has been a year or two since I last lived there. Regulation and department cross referencing is everywhere! We may call for more regulation here but they could export the stuff. A missed payment on your electricity bill can have implications on your hiring a car at the airport as my girlfriend discovered The nanny state mentality is there to the extent that you can't buy a bottle of wine in a shop or off-licence, because well, off-licences don't exist only the System Bolaget, the state run chain. Pharmacies were only privatised from the state Apoteket chain 2 years ago after EU monopolies pressure. Alcohol is kept artificially high in bars (approx 6 euro a pint in my local in Stockholm) and god forbid you'd want an alco-pop like a Smirnoff Ice, that'll set you back about 9 quid. All bars have to provide a hot food menu with at least 3 dishes up until half an hour before closing, which wouldn't help very many small businesses here. To be honest I've found the everyday costs of living such as food and clothing to be on a par with here. Cigarettes are a lot cheaper, at about a fiver a pack.

So there's my synopsis of Nordic living in a nutshell. If you're of the need to access the public services and you don't mind the direct intervention of the state everywhere you'll be thankful. If you don't you'll spend your time looking at your pay packet wondering where the hell it went.

Dr Galen is correct in my opinion about the cultural shift. I just felt like it was a slightly imposing way of life and a little less friendly than what I was used to at home.

Nodin

mike65 wrote: »

Don't forget Lego and insulin Denmark is the sort of country Ireland should have aspired to be rather than something between New Zealand and Scotland.

...with economics between Washington and London......Personally, I only voted for the EU because I thought we'd see a shift towards the German, French or Nordic models.

Cork boy 55

A rogue state

Society should be organised on a tribal bias


The econmy will be based on
Slavery
piracy of shipping lanes
Smuggling into europe(guns, drugs, slaves, priated goods, etc)
money laundering on a global scale
safe haven for fallen leaders and others scum with cash
arms and drugs manufacturing
terrorism training camps
extreme hedonism (everything and anything once we can make a buck out of it think Hostel the movie)
cyber warfare and internet fraud

yoshytoshy

We should be without AIB.

blahfckingblah

plain and simply we should be functional.

mike65

I know my memory is shot to bits but even I can remember what threads I start on a given day. :pac:

As for the question I inadvertently raised, competent is the answer. And built on genuine "post-industrial" foundations.
Which requires high levels of hard sciences, maths, the ability to organise a piss up in a brewery i.e. spot markets, invest without waste, develop truly international commercial links rather than just firing about 70% of everything at the UK/US markets.

The creation of a genuinely civic society, which does not operate on who one knows and/or how much someone costs to pay off.

GSF

solvent asap

Dr Galen

See thats the thing about trying to impose a Nordic style society, thats exactly what it would be.....an imposition. To my mind we don't have the same level of civic awareness and duty that those countries have. Without that, it would be doomed to being a high tax nightmare. Not that I am calling for such a thing, that level of government intervention and nanny statism would have me on a plane out of here tbh.

anymore

Grown up ?

Dr Galen

In what way?

anymore

Dr Galen wrote: »

In what way?

Do I reaaly need to explain ?

oscarBravo

I agree that we would need a major cultural shift in order for a Nordic model to work. Danish people (I have less experience of Sweden and none of Norway) expect a lot from society, but they also give a lot; they are a very civic-minded people. People obey laws not merely because the penalties are fairly sharp if they don't, but because that's what's expected of them. To an Irishman, it looks strange when you see pedestrians standing patiently at a red man when there isn't a car in sight, but that's just par for the course over here.

As for bureaucracy, they can sometimes take it to the point of bloody-mindedness. Anecdote: the girlfriend bought her mother a subscription to an English-language magazine that's posted monthly from England. The last line of every address here is the postcode followed by the city name; in this case it's "8700 Horsens". (Frankly, that's completely redundant as 8700 is simply the postcode for Horsens, but that's how they roll.) The publisher printed the address label with the postcode after the village name, so it was addressed to "<street address>/Hatting 8700/Horsens/Denmark".

The post office refused to deliver them, and sent them back. After three returned copies, the publisher cancelled the subscription, until we established what the problem was and got them to tweak their label printing system to keep the Danish post office happy.

What should Ireland aspire to be? Better than we are. I've long wondered why we can't cherry-pick the best of everything that every other country does. There seems to be a certain level of in-built fecklessness, however, combined with a stubborn refusal to accept that there's any reason why we should change. We expect better government, but we don't want the burden of being better citizens.

mikemac

The services of Norway and the taxes of Texas

That line has been going around for years, might have been Mary Harney who said it, I'm not sure

Anyway, that's what I want

oscarBravo

mikemac wrote: »

The services of Norway and the taxes of Texas

Wanting that is all very well - the problem seems to be the number of people who believe we can have it, and will vote for a party that promises it.

Monty Burnz

mikemac wrote: »

The services of Norway and the taxes of Texas

That line has been going around for years, might have been Mary Harney who said it, I'm not sure

Anyway, that's what I want

The services of a left-wing nation that can afford to pay for its services due to massive oil wealth, but paid for by a low tax regime?

While we're at it, I'd like to be able to fly...

Monty Burnz

oscarBravo wrote: »

Wanting that is all very well - the problem seems to be the number of people who believe we can have it, and will vote for a party that promises it.

Part of me often wants one of the hard-left groups, or even Sinn Fein, to win an election just to see the faces of the supporters as the country descends into chaos. But my better nature prevails.

Bannasidhe

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Part of me often wants one of the hard-left groups, or even Sinn Fein, to win an election just to see the faces of the supporters as the country descends into chaos. But my better nature prevails.

In what way would hard left chaos differ from our current right of centre chaos? Same meat - different gravy train I suspect.

Monty Burnz

Bannasidhe wrote: »

In what way would hard left chaos differ from our current chaos right of centre chaos? Same meat - different gravy train I suspect.

Well, the chaos we see today was brought about by corruption and incompetence, rather than the system. We were doing it wrong.

The far-left chaos is inevitable even without corruption or incompetence. In fact, the more competent you are at it, the more your country will end up like East Germany...

Dr Galen

anymore wrote: »

Do I reaaly need to explain ?

Yes actually, mostly because this is a discussion board, so without you clarifying what you meant you could mean close 4652 things when the past sins of this country are counted.

anymore

oscarBravo wrote: »

I agree that we would need a major cultural shift in order for a Nordic model to work. Danish people (I have less experience of Sweden and none of Norway) expect a lot from society, but they also give a lot; they are a very civic-minded people. People obey laws not merely because the penalties are fairly sharp if they don't, but because that's what's expected of them. To an Irishman, it looks strange when you see pedestrians standing patiently at a red man when there isn't a car in sight, but that's just par for the course over here.

As for bureaucracy, they can sometimes take it to the point of bloody-mindedness. Anecdote: the girlfriend bought her mother a subscription to an English-language magazine that's posted monthly from England. The last line of every address here is the postcode followed by the city name; in this case it's "8700 Horsens". (Frankly, that's completely redundant as 8700 is simply the postcode for Horsens, but that's how they roll.) The publisher printed the address label with the postcode after the village name, so it was addressed to "<street address>/Hatting 8700/Horsens/Denmark".

The post office refused to deliver them, and sent them back. After three returned copies, the publisher cancelled the subscription, until we established what the problem was and got them to tweak their label printing system to keep the Danish post office happy.

What should Ireland aspire to be? Better than we are. I've long wondered why we can't cherry-pick the best of everything that every other country does. There seems to be a certain level of in-built fecklessness, however, combined with a stubborn refusal to accept that there's any reason why we should change. We expect better government, but we don't want the burden of being better citizens.

Interesting comment.
If Irish politicians only showed an interest in seeing that the laws they pass are actually enforced, then we would have taken a big step forwards. Instead, once passed thier interest seems to end. I have found this to to be the case, especially in the are of the environment. For example whilst the Litter and Planning acts give ample powers to deal the plethora of illegal and unauthorised advertising signs and advertising trailers, many Local Authorities will take no action at all until forced to be civic minded citizens. Some LAs are better than others in this respect.

Bannasidhe

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Well, the chaos we see today was brought about by corruption and incompetence, rather than the system. We were doing it wrong.

The far-left chaos is inevitable even without corruption or incompetence. In fact, the more competent you are at it, the more your country will end up like East Germany...

Equally - the Far-Right didn't exactly create utopia. Corruption was also rife, civil liberties suspended - not exactly dissimilar from Far-left countries. Go to the right and we can have Hitler's Germany, Pinochet's Chile, Franco's Spain. Péron's Argentina or Mussolini's Italy.

I would question your proposition that SF are hard-left - they are the further to the left then most of our 'soft' left parties granted, but hardly hard-line Marxist-Stalinist.

anymore

Dr Galen wrote: »

Yes actually, mostly because this is a discussion board, so without you clarifying what you meant you could mean close 4652 things when the past sins of this country are counted.

Well you asked, what about the fact that a man who withdrew from the Presidential race several months ago can now book himself a prime spot on a flagship programme on the State's Television and Radio Broadcaster without having to make himself available for normal interview by this country's media ? Without, it seems making himself for comprehensive interview by RTE's news journalists ? Would you regard that as a sign of an immature country/democracy ?
That fact that RTE has in the past done this for Taoiseach Bertie Ahern shows that this is not an aberration but in fact is standard practice.
It has also been mentioned on so many threads that political correctness in general has distorted normal political debate in this country - again another sign of immaturity.

Monty Burnz

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Equally - the Far-Right didn't exactly create utopia. Corruption was also rife, civil liberties suspended - not exactly dissimilar from Far-left countries. Go to the right and we can have Hitler's Germany, Pinochet's Chile, Franco's Spain. Péron's Argentina or Mussolini's Italy.

Indeed - I doubt anyone needs reminding about the horrors of the far right. But of course we don't have any far-right parties in Ireland, so it's not really a threat of any sort at the moment. We do have the ULA.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I would question your proposition that SF are hard-left - they are the further to the left then most of our 'soft' left parties granted, but hardly hard-line Marxist-Stalinist.

I'm not proposing that SF are hard-left (they make noises along those lines, but look at their acts in government in NI) - I just think that their economic policies are a bit deluded. Well no, a lot deluded.

LordSutch

All this talk of the Nordic countries is not realistic, its just not us, we should aspire to fit in where we belong 'in this group of islands', and yes I know that's a painful thought for many to even contemplate, but this is where we belong, no need to look to New Zealand or Norway.

mikemac

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Mussolini's Italy.

At least CIE would be kicked into shape and the trains would run on time

Dr Galen

I'd like to see a return to the "real" Celtic tiger days. You know back in the late 90's when we made stuff and sold it. Before we decided the best idea was just to build house and sell em to each other.

I don't believe that the government should be doing much more other than creating the environment to foster this. For example, I've recently become much more exposed to the operations side of the business I work in. The sheer amount if nonsensical paperwork that need to be completed for various government depts is crazy. Forms, surveys and all sorts of crazy stuff. Takes forever and is time I could be devoting to much more productive things.

invinciblePRSTV

The idea of a civic society and civic pride ever existing with the best intentions of the general public being put to the fore in Ireland is laughable. It's all about what you can you can sponge off the state for your road/parish/county, feck everyone else. That's what most Irish people's idea of what constitutes civic society is.

Dr Galen

I'd suggest that's most likely a consequence of the age of our nation. Centralised government is still a relatively new idea for us. We still have a very pariochial and localised view of the world. You could suggest loads and loads of sociological reasons for this, none of which would be solvable in a short time period.

schemingbohemia

Dr Galen wrote: »

I'd suggest that's most likely a consequence of the age of our nation. Centralised government is still a relatively new idea for us. We still have a very pariochial and localised view of the world. You could suggest loads and loads of sociological reasons for this, none of which would be solvable in a short time period.

Sure we're only children?!! We're coming up on a century of independance and we're still giving ourselves excuses.:rolleyes:

We're a totally childish nation (different thing) selfish beyond belief with no sense of civic society - shown by the muppets talking about the services of Norway with the taxes of Texas, how are those services to be paid for?

We keep on getting idiots elected to protect the local shrine/hospital/turf bog etc and then complain if there's any tax increase. You have economic illiterates like Joe Higgins defending people on 200k a year getting child benefit without tax? That's the freedom fighter for the working class??

We don't respect any laws, we don't enforce most of them and then we want people to bail us out for having invested in a ponzi scheme.

Bannasidhe

mikemac wrote: »

At least CIE would be kicked into shape and the trains would run on time

Except that the Italian trains didn't really run on time - people were just too afraid to complain .

One thing I would like to see is greater (or any) decentralisation.

At the moment far too many 'local' issues are decided from Dublin and local politics dominate the national agenda far too much. My proposal is we adopt a quasi-federal system based on the provinces - with the 3 counties of Ulster joining with Connacht.

Each province to have elected representatives with responsibility for infrastructure, education provision, health care etc.

Reduce the number of TDs - with the State responsible for the 'big' issues - foreign policy, defence etc.

Taxes would be clearly defined as Local and National - with local staying within the provinces.

Dr Galen

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Sure we're only children?!! We're coming up on a century of independance .

Considering most of us posting here are likely to only be the third or fourth generation since then, that's not really that long tbh. Not compared to many of our European neighbours.

invinciblePRSTV

Dr Galen wrote: »

I'd suggest that's most likely a consequence of the age of our nation. Centralised government is still a relatively new idea for us. We still have a very pariochial and localised view of the world. You could suggest loads and loads of sociological reasons for this, none of which would be solvable in a short time period.

Perhaps there is a grain of truth in what you say but I think it's a lot simpler then that. Ireland is a classic example of a banana republic, complete with endemic levels of political corruption, graft, nepotism and the like. What we consider normal behaviours and indeed expect from our politicians would be looked upon as distasteful and possibly illegal in many other western European countries.

Let's recall out of our last 7 taosigh, 2 have been definitely corrupt, 1 has a questionable relationship with one of the banks and 3 are products of political nepotism, eg their father was a great man.

What we do have is a population used to suckling on the teath of public money and resources, paid for my someone else, with the local politician being the man who brings home the bacon. A characteristic of irish people's voting behaviour is electing politicians who will do that, and, just as importantly, will not do other things. Any attempts at breaking the status quo means reform is carried out at a glacial pace, or most likely not at all. It's why we have broken health, education and welfare systems, and a shambolic public regulatory regime. They're left limp, toothless and outdated, because they're generally paralyzed by self interest, parasitic stakeholders exercising far too much influence and local concern overriding the national interest.

Civic pride just doesn't exist in this country, never has, probably never will.

schemingbohemia

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Civic pride just doesn't exist in this country, never has, probably never will.

It's so sad but true.

Before we were independant the Government was Them Brits, then it was Them Blueshirts then Them Fianna Failers.

Then it was Them Dubs/D4 etc

It's never been US! Which is what it is.

Foghladh

To my mind there are a few factors that militate against any idea that Ireland could or should attempt to replicate a Nordic model. I can only refer to my experiences of Sweden in this.

One thing to bear in mind about the Swedish model is that it's the evolution of something completely different to our own experiences. Historically Sweden was an expansionist, colonial power rich in resources and coupled with a strong tradition of heavy industry, mining and manufacturing that reaches back to the mid-1800. Prior to the instigation of the welfare state in the 1950’s Sweden had nearly 100 years of economic growth and a solid industrial basis. Particularly, in the years before the ‘Swedish Model’ was introduced it had an accelerated pattern of growth.

From speaking to people on the ground (notably the in-laws!) I gather that there did appear to be an appetite at the time for greater social awareness but also an element of ‘because we can afford it’. There were increases in education, health care, social protection and pensions provisions. The emphasis on free childcare in particular seems to have been dual purpose. Firstly because it was right to do and secondly because it was evident that all the social initiatives were going to need taxpayers of the future in the face of declining birth rates. The state needed women in the workforce but they also needed to remove barriers to having more children. Ironically this doesn’t seem to have happened there. Immigration seems to have been the main factor contributing to population growth and this in itself has thrown up a few problems regarding integration and the role of the welfare state.

At the time there was corresponding labour regulation to complement the new model. This was basically the notion of equal pay for equal work, regardless of the individual companies ability to pay. Essentially there was an attempt to compress the gap between pay differences across the economy, an admirable intent. Unfortunately when the s*** hit the fan in the 80’s that labour regulation was amongst the first to go because it was seen to have been an inhibitor to flexibility. Basically there was no individual need to innovate if everyone was the same and there was no reward.

A lot of the social initiatives, like the ‘Collective Houses’ which practised a communal type living, have died away although there are still a few around. In recent years the government started to sell off its interests in big companies to pay down it’s national debt and seems to be moving away from a lot of the ideals of the 60’s and 70’s. To many Swedes the concepts of free childcare, education and health are sacred but there’s a growing feeling that it’s not sustainable. Nor among the middle class people that I know, that it’s fair. One could draw a comparison with debt forgiveness on mortgages here, a lot of people might be in favour of it but there will be others who won’t want to subsidise the unlucky. The recent trend in the elections where the leftist Social Democrats were sidelined and the more conservative Moderates have come into power speaks volumes to my mind.

I don’t know what an Irish model would be but I’m certain it’s not along Swedish lines. Even given their strong economic base they still have the need to level income taxes at huge rates. What rates would we need to employ I wonder to sustain a comparable system? And is there the same appetite to level the playing field?

RMD

A nation of lazy, spineless alcoholics. Those people are great craic.

CrystalLettuce

Monty Burnz wrote: »

The services of a left-wing nation that can afford to pay for its services due to massive oil wealth, but paid for by a low tax regime?

While we're at it, I'd like to be able to fly...

Not all the Nordic countries have massive oil wealth.

anymore

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Perhaps there is a grain of truth in what you say but I think it's a lot simpler then that. Ireland is a classic example of a banana republic, complete with endemic levels of political corruption, graft, nepotism and the like. What we consider normal behaviours and indeed expect from our politicians would be looked upon as distasteful and possibly illegal in many other western European countries.

Let's recall out of our last 7 taosigh, 2 have been definitely corrupt, 1 has a questionable relationship with one of the banks and 3 are products of political nepotism, eg their father was a great man.

What we do have is a population used to suckling on the teath of public money and resources, paid for my someone else, with the local politician being the man who brings home the bacon. A characteristic of irish people's voting behaviour is electing politicians who will do that, and, just as importantly, will not do other things. Any attempts at breaking the status quo means reform is carried out at a glacial pace, or most likely not at all. It's why we have broken health, education and welfare systems, and a shambolic public regulatory regime. They're left limp, toothless and outdated, because they're generally paralyzed by self interest, parasitic stakeholders exercising far too much influence and local concern overriding the national interest.

Civic pride just doesn't exist in this country, never has, probably never will.

One of our past Taoiseachs was told of an attempt offer of corruption and like Pontus Pilate washed his hands of the affair. He also seemed to have had to reconsider his evidence to one of the Tribunals.

Cork boy 55

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

The idea of a civic society and civic pride ever existing with the best intentions of the general public being put to the fore in Ireland is laughable. It's all about what you can you can sponge off the state for your road/parish/county, feck everyone else. That's what most Irish people's idea of what constitutes civic society is.

Define civic society and civic pride
Show using international stats/data how Ireland is less than other countries in this regard.


Otherwise just retract your anti-irish drivel

Cork boy 55

Nordic model FFS

What happened in Sweden and Finland in the early 90's
A currency, banking and property bubble collaspe
NAMA is based on a swedish model

How are Denmarks banks doing the last couple of years?

Norway is freak state due to it's oil wealth.

Don't get me started on Sweden's immigration trends.

oscarBravo

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Define civic society and civic pride
Show using international stats/data how Ireland is less than other countries in this regard.


Otherwise just retract your anti-irish drivel

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Nordic model FFS

What happened in Sweden and Finland in the early 90's
A currency, banking and property bubble collaspe
NAMA is based on a swedish model

How are Denmarks banks doing the last couple of years?

Norway is freak state due to it's oil wealth.

Don't get me started on Sweden's immigration trends.

These posts define for me what's wrong with Ireland. The very idea that we could possibly be a better country or a better people in any way is met with hostility and, frankly arrogance; the idea that we could learn from other countries is responded to with cherry-picking of anything that could remotely be criticised about those countries.

In the end, it doesn't matter what Ireland should aspire to be. We'll always be what we are, because we refuse to accept the idea that there's anything wrong with us.

Cork boy 55

oscarBravo wrote: »

These posts define for me what's wrong with Ireland. The very idea that we could possibly be a better country or a better people in any way is met with hostility and, frankly arrogance; the idea that we could learn from other countries is responded to with cherry-picking of anything that could remotely be criticised about those countries.

In the end, it doesn't matter what Ireland should aspire to be. We'll always be what we are, because we refuse to accept the idea that there's anything wrong with us.

no no no

I just want to point out that the Nordic model is far from perfect
they had a banking and property bubble in the 90s FFS

I also want the poster to point out what he means by
civic xxx and show me how Ireland is better or worse
Show me the money back it up ...

oscarBravo

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

I just want to point out that the Nordic model is far from perfect
they had a banking and property bubble in the 90s FFS

And they've learned from it. They're not going to have another property bubble, because Nordic people will think back thirty years and say to themselves "we're not making those mistakes again"; Irish people will say "this time it's different".

I also want the poster to point out what he means by
civic xxx and show me how Ireland is better or worse
Show me the money back it up ...

You can't measure civic pride. You certainly can't put a monetary value on it. It's a qualitative thing, not a quantitative one. Nordic people have it; Irish people don't.

I've never seen a Danish person drop a piece of litter on the street. You don't see fag butts ankle deep outside workplaces. Granted, a lot of Irish people don't litter, but the fact that so many Irish people do is a piss-poor reflection on our attitude to civic responsibility.

Son Of A Vidic

oscarBravo wrote: »

In the end, it doesn't matter what Ireland should aspire to be. We'll always be what we are, because we refuse to accept the idea that there's anything wrong with us.

Amen to that!

Foghladh

Maybe it might be an idea to list what we're actually good at as a people and build on that?