Would a man do this for the same reason as a woman would?

I purchased a house recently anyway got talking to a female solicitor who in the course of conversation told me she use to work for a large firm of solicitors in Dublin, but she had given it up and was now working flexible for small one man practices doing the grunt work of the law conveyancing probate ect

Why the change... because she had children and with the other job she wasn't getting home till 8 some nights and she was missing out on her children's lives.

Now that is a well educated woman choosing to give up a very well paid prestigious job to do a lower paid less prestigious job not because she couldn't afford childcare but because she wanted to spend time with her children.

Do you think a man would give up a prestigious well paid job for a less prestigious lower paid one solely to spend time with his children.

If I had kids and could afford to do so I would no problem, who wants to be messing about at work 'till 8pm. Work to live and all that

CucaFace

Some men would, some wouldn't.

Same as some women wouldn't have done this also.

Everybody is different and have different priorities in life and i don't think you can really make this a sex issue.

Fair play to that woman by the way as ,IMO, she has the right principles.

Hail 2 Da Thief

One of my best mates is a stay at home dad. He gave up work to allow his wife to pursue her career which pays better than his ever did.

I think lots of men would give up work and become the main carer of the children if they could thats not what I am asking though.

um7y1h83ge06nx

As a man, if I was in that situation I would do the same thing.

Work to live rather than live to work and all that.

Logical Fallacy

mariaalice wrote: »

I think lots of men would give up work and become the main carer of the children if they could thats not what I am asking though.

Some men would switch to a lower paid job to spend more time with their kids, some men wouldn't.

Not really seeing the point of the thread i must confess.

krudler

depends, if it was an office job yes. If my work involved high explosives or access to some sort of death ray then no, thats what nannies are for.

Ickle Magoo

Yes - I know lots of guys who have given up well paid jobs for a better quality of life, whether that be spending more time with their kids or just for their own mental health.

atila

Very much depends on whether the family are prepared to lower their consumption levels to match the reduced income. In other words it would be a family decision rather then mine alone.

MagicMarker

I wouldn't even need kids to do that, work to live, not live to work.

reprazant

Can't help but get the feeling that people saying that some men would do that is not really the answer the OP is looking for.

A Primal Nut

I would. Even now I dont have kids and I wouldnt change to a job where I had to work till 8 even for extra money. Dont see the point and not worth the stress. I dont ever wanna turn into one of them people who stay late to impress the boss

Scanlas The 2nd

3 or 4 times a month I get home at about 8 not getting to see my 11 month old since she's in bed by then, no way I'd stay in a job where I was getting home at that time every day if I had the choice.

Wantobe

Of course men would and do all the time. That's what becoming a father does to them!

My husband completely retrained to work in a different career when we had children because in his old, very well paid, job he was constantly on call and often had to go to work in the middle of the night and weekends and still go into work the next morning. He wasn't seeing enough of our children and he couldn't bear it.

Maguined

My current manager did, he used to work in a much higher position in a previous role and his wife had a similar position in another company, when they decided to have children the wife wanted to give up work completely and be a stay at home mother and the husband supported her decision and they both agreed they could afford the drop in income to have her stay at home.

After a couple of years the husband then decided that he was not happy with the extremely long hours his high position demanded and how little time he got to spend with his children, effectively weekends only so he spoke with his wife and they both mutually agreed they could afford another drop in lifestyle in order for the husband to get a lower scaled job.

Okay fair enough the families current lifestyle is still well above average and is most certainly comfortable but they did drop the family income by a significant amount to enjoy a better quality of life with their children.

MoodeRator

YES

I was in a similar position, gave up my job AND moved country. This is not a sex issue IMO. Why have children and then miss them growing up?

gargleblaster

It's interesting to see so many people saying it isn't a sex issue.

Because of course, this is one of the reasons that's trotted out anytime anyone says anything about the gender pay gap. Either it doesn't exist at all, or things like this (men being more willing to work longer hours vs women being less willing to do so for familial reasons) make it justifiable and reasonable.

Ash.J.Williams

I say any man would, if it's ok with the missus.

Malari

I don't even think it's a children issue I don't think I could sustain a job where I frequently worked till 8pm. Unless I was only starting at 11.30am. Life's too short.

Ickle Magoo

gargleblaster wrote: »

It's interesting to see so many people saying it isn't a sex issue.

Because of course, this is one of the reasons that's trotted out anytime anyone says anything about the gender pay gap. Either it doesn't exist at all, or things like this (men being more willing to work longer hours vs women being less willing to do so for familial reasons) make it justifiable and reasonable.

It's not so much that it isn't a sex issue - by asking "would a man do this..", the OP is in effect questioning would ANY man do that - which would be a ridiculous assumption to make and the one that I think most posters are responding to.

Of course, that doesn't mean that there aren't equally plenty men who wouldn't consider giving up a good job to spend more time with their kids - or men who's higher wage means their partners don't have to work or can spend more time at home...everyone's situation is different but I've certainly found more & more of the other dads working from home, flexi-timing, job sharing, working a 3 or 4 day week in order to be more involved in their child's lives and do the school run and take them to the park or whatever when none of those options were either available or would have been considered by my father.

gargleblaster

Oh definitely, the OP is easily answered. Of course men would do it for the same reasons - men love their children too and don't want to miss seeing them grow up. Not everyone is so inclined but I'd like to think most are. I'd hazard a guess that in fact many of those people who do end up missing out on family time due to their jobs may resent it, but feel obligated because they're the breadwinners and that's what's expected. Or perhaps out of fear that they won't be able to provide for their loved ones.

I just couldn't help but be struck by the conflict with the popular claim that most women get paid less because on average they take time off or take less demanding jobs due to having a family, whereas most men don't.

Max Powers

mariaalice wrote: »

I purchased a house recently anyway got talking to a female solicitor who in the course of conversation told me she use to work for a large firm of solicitors in Dublin, but she had given it up and was now working flexible for small one man practices doing the grunt work of the law conveyancing probate ect

Why the change... because she had children and with the other job she wasn't getting home till 8 some nights and she was missing out on her children's lives.

Now that is a well educated woman choosing to give up a very well paid prestigious job to do a lower paid less prestigious job not because she couldn't afford childcare but because she wanted to spend time with her children.

Do you think a man would give up a prestigious well paid job for a less prestigious lower paid one solely to spend time with his children.

I would in an instant

LeeHoffmann

I guess it comes down to money a lot of the time. If you can afford to do so, I think most people (male or female) would do so.

I think there's been a shift in focus since the recession, i.e. people are focusing more on quality of life than on personal financial success.

um7y1h83ge06nx

I would make compromises and sacrifices for anyone I love deeply. My GF and I have already decided that we would make sacrifices for our relationship in the future if need be, mainly in one or both or us relocating so we could live together.

No point in making loads of money if I go home after work to an empty house. No point making loads of money if I wouldn't have much opportunity to see my kids (if I had kids).

LeeHoffmann

Well said Super Sonic. Can I add...no point making loads of money if you have no time to spend it...and nobody to spend it on

Joey the lips

I am a carer for my child. He has sever intellectual disability. I gave up my job because me and my wife sat down and worked out that my job was more at risk...

I would do anything for my family because tbh once i am just getting by i am a very happy person.

So yes. After achieving 2 no 3rd level diplomas and working quite hard i did give up work....Because it made sense.

The only thing i hate is my wife is now the main provider. I am not sexist. I just hate the fact that i have to rely on her rather than have her rely on me.

I dont imagine many men would do what i have done... But i consider myself very very lucky. I get to stay at home and see my kids grow up.

I was looking at more form the cultural aspect of the expectation that men provide for their family and the fact that for a lot of men ( not all ) their self-esteem is often tied to how successful they are at work.

Any man I know that has assumed a lot or all the caring for their children is doing it because, they lost their job, they earn less than their wives, they were stressed and unhappy with their job, they work in creative industries or they have careers that allows they to bow out for a year two, or their wives are not well, I am sure they love their children as well and are happy to be able to care for them.

The point is it struck me that I have never heard of a man who had give up a very well paid prestiges job ( I don't know what a solicitor or partner in a top firm earns maybe 200k? ) solely to have more time with his children ( not saying it never happens ) To me it seemed culturally its easier for woman to make that choice because of cultural exceptions that the woman will do most of the child care.

Ickle Magoo

gargleblaster wrote: »

...I just couldn't help but be struck by the conflict with the popular claim that most women get paid less because on average they take time off or take less demanding jobs due to having a family, whereas most men don't.

Well, on average, I would imagine that is still the case for "most" - but I think the tide is (at long last!) turning re men being expected to work a 70-80hr week in a job they hate to fund their wife being a stay-at-home mum "for the sake of the children"/because that's what "men" do.

There are so many people out of work, having to juggle, be more creative about working/living arrangements that seeing more men than women doing the school run isn't unusual any more. This recession is doing wonders for breaking down the old taboos and social norms.

LeeHoffmann

To me it seemed culturally its easier for woman to make that choice because of cultural exceptions expectations? that the woman will do most of the child care.

I see what you mean. I agree that there is more of an expectation for women to do the child care bit, but I think that's changing now. I think not many younger people (20's, early 30's) have the kind of prestigious jobs you're talking about. Maybe in 10/20 years we'll see a more even split. However, I see evidence of that split now.

Edit: oops hadn't seen your post Ickle. Pretty much your echo here!

Catari Jaguar

Job snobbery... Nice. I think being happy trumps everything. When the time comes my fiancé said he'll be a stay at home Dad until our child is school aged.

Stheno

gargleblaster wrote: »

It's interesting to see so many people saying it isn't a sex issue.

Because of course, this is one of the reasons that's trotted out anytime anyone says anything about the gender pay gap. Either it doesn't exist at all, or things like this (men being more willing to work longer hours vs women being less willing to do so for familial reasons) make it justifiable and reasonable.

Eh, maternity leave, and missing out on 9 months of professional development every time you have a child might have an influence there if you are female, given that there are no choice as to who (male/female) takes that leave?

mariaalice wrote: »

I was looking at more form the cultural aspect of the expectation that men provide for their family and the fact that for a lot of men ( not all ) their self-esteem is often tied to how successful they are at work.

Any man I know that has assumed a lot or all the caring for their children is doing it because, they lost their job, they earn less than their wives, they were stressed and unhappy with their job, they work in creative industries or they have careers that allows they to bow out for a year two, or their wives are not well, I am sure they love their children as well and are happy to be able to care for them.

The point is it struck me that I have never heard of a man who had give up a very well paid prestiges job ( I don't know what a solicitor or partner in a top firm earns maybe 200k? ) solely to have more time with his children ( not saying it never happens ) To me it seemed culturally its easier for woman to make that choice because of cultural exceptions that the woman will do most of the child care.

I work in a job that involves travel, frequent out of hours work, and requires a fair bit of flexibility. On my team are people who have young children, older (teenage +) and people without children. When we are considering who is the best person for a particular role (I work in consulting) we always consider family situations first to try to ensure that those with young children are not expected to put their work ahead of their family commitments, regardless of gender. There are five guys and one woman on the team

gargleblaster

Stheno wrote: »

Eh, maternity leave, and missing out on 9 months of professional development every time

I always forget that in other countries women are allowed to take a lot of time off.

Nevertheless, women face gender pay gaps no matter If they have children or not so its a meaningless rationalization anyway.

Buceph

My mother was faced with a similar decision, I think. I've never really talked to her about it because she made her choice and the whole family supports her (until it comes to holidays.) She's quite succesful in her legal profession. Growing up I remember her going to get a train to Dublin at 5am and not being back until midnight. I remember her on other days leaving the house at 8am and not being home until 10pm, quite often. She often spent six or seven hours working on Sundays. I also remember her driving around in a tiny, old Fiat Panda. Now she drives around in an expensive (relatively) car.


My father also worked fairly hard, but he turned down moving the family to Dublin or commuting to Dublin (being away from home for four nights a week,) basically capping his promotion opportunities because he didn't want us to grow up in, or himself to have to live in Dublin. He eventually moved his office to our house and worked from home. We'd find him dictating letters at midnight so he could pick us up from school during the day and drop us to the child-minders. In has later years he's focused on looking after my parent's retirement, doing up houses and looking after renters so my parents have something when they both finish work.

My mother still works long hours, not as long as she used to but she works extremely hard. She still did the around-the-house stuff, cleaning bathrooms, mopping floors and giving out to us for not pitching in (something which continues to this day.) They still made time for us. Any help that was needed with our homework was given, school sports days were attended, as were school plays. We got to go to nature parks and to our grandmother's down the country quite often. And we were often taken out of school for holidays in Spain, because that was the only time they both could get off work (with our teachers blessing, seeing as we were basically homeschooled in the apartments we stayed in on holidays, with our teachers setting us tasks to achieve with out parents.)

My mother has risen to the highest she could go within her profession here. She spent a lot of time doing so (and fought a lot of battles along the way.) In theory she probably sacrificed in parts of her life, and we probably didn't have the same experiences as other kids. To this day my parents don't go out very often, they don't go on holidays as often as other people, they don't really have hobbies or pastimes. I doubt either would have it any other way though, especially my mother. She was destined for big things and always extremely driven, moreso than my father. I don't know why she's like that. It's not like she didn't care for us, or let us suffer in any way, she just wanted to work hard and she seems to enjoy what she does.

She has all the same concerns as anyone else, the health of her children (me and my siblings,) our successes, her own retirement, money issues, whether she can get to the cinema as often as she'd like, even how clean the house is. But I think some people will simply make sacrifices for the success they get from their achievements in their profession, they want to be their best, and they're driven that way. Those sacrifices if done correctly will be minimal. It will take a lot of hard work, absolutely. Some people could spend ten or more years being tired permanently, but if that gets you what you want, success for yourself, security for your family, the ability to take your daughter to the cinema without concern or your son to a graduation dinner as well as the pride in simply achieving what you could, then I don't see the problem with it.

Some people will work non-stop, some will want some downtime. Everyone's different. It seems there was a disparity in this before, a dividing line where women were simply incapable of anything more than familial affairs. Every day women are proving that to be incorrect. I think it's more societies attitude to giving your all in every way, to the point of exhausation that's the problem. Society shirks hard work (I know I do anyway,) some people don't. And they shouldn't be insulted for that. Hopefully they do get rewarded.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the women in the OP letting her family take priority. Nor do I think there's anything wrong with a women who forgoes a family to let her career take priority. Some people will be able to balance the two. While others will find it a nightmare to do both and crash and burn. We shouldn't look at either or any way as being lessor than the other, or even set it up to be the goal for everyone. People, if given the opportunity will succeed. We all like success and I'm sure we can agree that most will take their opportunities if given the right encouragement, so just make sure that happens. If you want a career have it, if you want a family have that too. If you want both then accept that sacrifices will be made all round, but make sure that you know that going into the situation and make it work for you.

And as my father encountered as the only man picking his kids every day from school, some people will insult and try and cut you down, most will ignore you, but you will get some support from the most unlikely places. And that'll see you through.

dsmythy

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

There are so many people out of work, having to juggle, be more creative about working/living arrangements that seeing more men than women doing the school run isn't unusual any more. This recession is doing wonders for breaking down the old taboos and social norms.

I don't think it's breaking down anything. If jobs suddenly appeared it might just revert back to how it was before.

QuiteInterestin

Stheno wrote: »

I work in a job that involves travel, frequent out of hours work, and requires a fair bit of flexibility. On my team are people who have young children, older (teenage +) and people without children. When we are considering who is the best person for a particular role (I work in consulting) we always consider family situations first to try to ensure that those with young children are not expected to put their work ahead of their family commitments, regardless of gender. There are five guys and one woman on the team

While it's commendable that you consider family situation when deciding who should take on what role, it can be a bit frustrating from the other side of the situation. Not having children doesn't mean you don't have family/other commitments outside of work, nor that your personal life is less important then that of a parents. I'm lucky in that our hours at work are divided evenly without regard to family situation, yet there are still the occasional times where we may be required to stay a bit late to complete our work. In these situations, it is nearly always those without children that are expected to stay on, as it is assumed that people with children have to get home/collect the children etc while those of us without children don't have any commitments.

Ickle Magoo

dsmythy wrote: »

I don't think it's breaking down anything. If jobs suddenly appeared it might just revert back to how it was before.

Well, not really. As I said earlier:

Ickle wrote:

...everyone's situation is different but I've certainly found more & more of the other dads working from home, flexi-timing, job sharing, working a 3 or 4 day week in order to be more involved in their child's lives and do the school run and take them to the park or whatever when none of those options were either available or would have been considered by my father.

Now, that's just personal anecdote on my part from our own experience, chatting to friends who are parents and other parents at our children's school but I can't imagine dad's doing the school run or being the parent who does the majority of the child care are ever going to be viewed as the novelty they were when I was a child.

Iompair

My Dad made that decision 29 years ago when I came along. He didn't leave a very high paid/powered job, but one he'd been working at/ apprenticing since 16. My mum had a more promising career and they decided that my Dad could set up his own workshop near home and have time to look after me (and my sister once she came along).

Just to say I think its a slow cultural shift that men are getting the opportunity to raise their kids, its been seen as the woman's role for the last few hundred years and men were viewed as odd if they wanted to sacrifice career for family.

dammitjanet

My dad left a very good job in Russia after I was born to move back to living in Ireland full time to help raise me. My Mom was very ill and couldn't manage by herself.
He always put the family first and took a lot of time off work to raise me.