Should Ireland support the Palestinian statehood bid?

dlofnep · 14-09-2011 4:06pm #1

In lieu of the pending statehood bid by the head of the Palestinian Authority - Should Ireland support the bid by Palestinians for UN recognition? Those arguing against the motion (Israel, US and Canada) cite that the only way forward is through talks. Those that argue for the UN bid cite that the only way forward is through this bid, as Israel continues to build illegal settlements and has not come close to making any sort of reasonable agreement.

I personally feel we should support it. If the UN was good enough for Israel, then surely it's good enough for Palestine. Jack Straw over in Britain is urging Britain to get onboard.

What say AH? Recognise the right of a Palestinian state, or object? AFAIK - The Irish Government has yet to comment.

Floodric · 14-09-2011 4:08pm

No - We should oppose the UN bid.

big suprise Israel and the US are against it. And "talks"? More like murdering more inoccent civilians. Israel need to cop on.

Helix · 14-09-2011 4:08pm

No - We should oppose the UN bid.

damn right palestine should be recognised. the fact that isreal is and it isnt is ridiculous

Saila · 14-09-2011 4:08pm

should ireland care is the question

dlofnep · 14-09-2011 4:10pm

No - We should oppose the UN bid.

Saila wrote: »

should ireland care is the question

Yes - We should care whether or not a people have a right to statehood.

Riamfada · 14-09-2011 4:12pm

I think we all learned lessons from Peteoria.

Chuck Stone · 14-09-2011 4:13pm

Will recognition of statehood benefit the Palestinians?

johngalway · 14-09-2011 4:13pm

No, there's two sides to each coin but some people are too blinkered to see it. All the lefties on this site harp on about this issue and purposely forget what the likes of Hamas do. So no, until the Palestinians get their own house in order we should not support them.

Alopex · 14-09-2011 4:15pm

They definitely should. If I recall correctly, the two-state solution worked out really well Ireland, with no enduring bitterness lasting to the present day.

Celly Smunt · 14-09-2011 4:15pm

No - We should oppose the UN bid.

as long as supporting it doesn't mean hanging up Palestinian flags everywhere and having republicans ramming it down peoples throats.

Temptamperu · 14-09-2011 4:15pm

No - We should oppose the UN bid.

johngalway wrote: »

No, there's two sides to each coin but some people are too blinkered to see it. All the lefties on this site harp on about this issue and purposely forget what the likes of Hamas do. So no, until the Palestinians get their own house in order we should not support them.

But hamas are only fighting back the only way they can. Meanwhile isreal is free to starve children and fire rockets in as much as it wants.

sdanseo · 14-09-2011 4:16pm

No - We should oppose the UN bid.

johngalway wrote: »

No, there's two sides to each coin but some people are too blinkered to see it. All the lefties on this site harp on about this issue and purposely forget what the likes of Hamas do. So no, until the Palestinians get their own house in order we should not support them.

Not so long ago the Irish resorted to guerilla warfare because we had little to no hope of defeating Britain in conventional battle. We brought that empire to its knees in about five years flat.

The only difference is that with Hamas civilians seem to be legitimate targets, something they are not.

Israel is the personification of what is wrong with the world.

Make a nation that everyone will resent just to make up for WWII and make a rake of jewish voters happy. The stupidity of it. Obama needs to suck it up and call of every morsel of support for Israel - no funding, no guns, nothing. Their crimes are as bad as Libya or Syria and nothing is being done. It makes the US hypocrites, and further proves that Iraq and Libya were solely about oil. I'm ashamed that Ireland is associated with the "western world" - the powers that be in that hemisphere are a pile of selfish blithering bastards.

donvito99 · 14-09-2011 4:17pm

Why would be get on the wrong side of a short sighted US?

dlofnep · 14-09-2011 4:17pm

No - We should oppose the UN bid.

johngalway wrote: »

No, there's two sides to each coin but some people are too blinkered to see it. All the lefties on this site harp on about this issue and purposely forget what the likes of Hamas do. So no, until the Palestinians get their own house in order we should not support them.

The Palestinians will never have their 'house in order' until they have state recognition, and their territorial boundaries are categorically defined and respected. Violence exists in the area as a response to Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory.

The best way forward therefore is to surely define the State and take it from there.

hairy sailor · 14-09-2011 4:19pm

No - We should oppose the UN bid.

Saila wrote: »

should ireland care is the question

should the world have cared when the irish state was looking for recognition?

Morlar · 14-09-2011 4:20pm

No - We should oppose the UN bid.

I don't understand how anyone with a conscience would vote no.

dlofnep · 14-09-2011 4:20pm

No - We should oppose the UN bid.

It's also worth noting that Israel were offered talks by Palestinian representatives - But refused to pre-conditions of freezing illegal settlements. So on that basis, I can absolutely see why Palestinians would not want to pursue talks any longer if Israel refused to halt it's settlements (Which are really a sly attempt to annex East Jerusalem and other parts of the West Bank).

Chuck Stone · 14-09-2011 4:24pm

johngalway wrote: »

All the lefties on this site harp on about this issue.

What do you mean by lefties?

KeithAFC · 14-09-2011 4:25pm

If I was from the Republic, I would not support it. Not everyone has dropped the gun for starters and Israel is surrounded by hostile countries.

sdanseo · 14-09-2011 4:25pm

No - We should oppose the UN bid.

donvito99 wrote: »

Why would be get on the wrong side of a short sighted US?

I'm sick of people suggesting we continue to sing to America's tune just because they provide a huge number of jobs here.

We'll let the troops continue trundling through Shannon, or they'll make the multinationals pull out.

We'll let them continue to to tell us how to vote in UN mandates now, too?

Bull****. I say we do our own thing and do what is right as we see it and that goes for the EU too. I'm sick of our hard-and-long-earned sovereignty being diluted by schemes that are meant to improve life but thus far have only resulted in a beaurocratic mess.

/rant

FlutterinBantam · 14-09-2011 4:27pm

KeithAFC wrote: »

If I was from the Republic, I would not support it. Not everyone has dropped the gun for starters and Israel is surrounded by hostile countries.

Don't bother these idealists with logic, Keith.

Lads can't handle it.;)

dlofnep · 14-09-2011 4:28pm

No - We should oppose the UN bid.

KeithAFC wrote: »

If I was from the Republic, I would not support it. Not everyone has dropped the gun for starters and Israel is surrounded by hostile countries.

So how does opposing a statehood bid make Israel safer?

Temptamperu · 14-09-2011 4:29pm

No - We should oppose the UN bid.

sdeire wrote: »

I'm sick of people suggesting we continue to sing to America's tune just because they provide a huge number of jobs here.

We'll let the troops continue trundling through Shannon, or they'll make the multinationals pull out.

We'll let them continue to to tell us how to vote in UN mandates now, too?

Bull****. I say we do our own thing and do what is right as we see it and that goes for the EU too. I'm sick of our hard-and-long-earned sovereignty being diluted by schemes that are meant to improve life but thus far have only resulted in a beaurocratic mess.

/rant

AND the only reason the US supports isreal is becasue "gods" very own "special people" need to be in place for the rapture :rolleyes:

dlofnep · 14-09-2011 4:29pm

No - We should oppose the UN bid.

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Don't bother these idealists with logic, Keith.

Lads can't handle it.;)

I'm afraid you don't get to determine who's view is 'logical' and who's isn't. Ad hominem attacks against those who support this bid will not win you the debate I'm afraid. How about you grow up and engage in dialogue for once, instead of posting your usual rhetoric about 'idealists' and 'kerb-painters'?

hatrickpatrick · 14-09-2011 4:31pm

No - We should oppose the UN bid.

Who makes the decision on how Ireland votes at the UN?
Is it decided by a general Dail vote or by the Dept of Foreign Affairs alone?
Who do I lobby if I want us to vote yes? TDs or the minister? Or someone else entirely?

FlutterinBantam · 14-09-2011 4:31pm

sdeire wrote: »

I'm sick of people suggesting we continue to sing to America's tune just because they provide a huge number of jobs here.

We'll let the troops continue trundling through Shannon, or they'll make the multinationals pull out.

We'll let them continue to to tell us how to vote in UN mandates now, too?

Bull****. I say we do our own thing and do what is right as we see it and that goes for the EU too. I'm sick of our hard-and-long-earned sovereignty being diluted by schemes that are meant to improve life but thus far have only resulted in a beaurocratic mess.

/rant

Tell that bull to the people who work, or whose employment is dependent on US multis.Declare your interest, pal

Or those who think that the US is protecting us from the mad mullahs who ,quite frankly ,don't give a fcuk what the outcome of their terrorist activities is.

johngalway · 14-09-2011 4:32pm

Temptamperu wrote: »

But hamas are only fighting back the only way they can. Meanwhile isreal is free to starve children and fire rockets in as much as it wants.

Oh well, that's alright then :rolleyes: We can't be upsetting the poor terrorists now, can we.

sdeire wrote: »

Not so long ago the Irish resorted to guerilla warfare because we had little to no hope of defeating Britain in conventional battle. We brought that empire to its knees in about five years flat.

The only difference is that with Hamas civilians seem to be legitimate targets, something they are not.

If you're talking about the "Troubles", save it, I could care less about either side, what they want, or don't want. They're a collective bunch of nutjobs best left to each others company. They killed plenty of civilians between them, intentionally and unintentionally.

dlofnep wrote: »

The Palestinians will never have their 'house in order' until they have state recognition, and their territorial boundaries are categorically defined and respected. Violence exists in the area as a response to Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory.

The best way forward therefore is to surely define the State and take it from there.

Violence exists there to suit Irans agenda. They have armed Hamas to such an extent that Hamas are more powerful than a lot of armies. Iran's policy line is destroy Israel, I can fully appreciate Israels view on self preservation and defense. I have no problem with terrorists, or those who harbour them paying the price.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

What do you mean by lefties?

It's quite obvious.

wes · 14-09-2011 4:32pm

No - We should oppose the UN bid.

Yes, we should. The peace process has been an utter failure, and has actually resulted in the 2 state solution being less likely due to Israels continued violent expansion of there illegal settlements.

The Palestinians only other option was to have more and more of the West Bank and East Jerusalem colonized, as the peace process seems to be designed by the US to go no where.

dlofnep · 14-09-2011 4:35pm

No - We should oppose the UN bid.

johngalway wrote: »

Violence exists there to suit Irans agenda. They have armed Hamas to such an extent that Hamas are more powerful than a lot of armies. Iran's policy line is destroy Israel, I can fully appreciate Israels view on self preservation and defense. I have no problem with terrorists, or those who harbour them paying the price.

Ah lad - time to get real. The US provides military funds to the tune of 3 billion annually. The Palestinians are basically armed with sticks, stones and a few fire-crackers. Israel has nuclear war-heads, tanks, f-16 fighter planes, and top of the range military equipment. Bit of perspective is in order.

If Israel is unwilling to agree to freeze it's illegal settlements as a pre-condition to talks - then the Palestinians have no alternative but to go through the UN.

wes · 14-09-2011 4:36pm

No - We should oppose the UN bid.

johngalway wrote: »

Violence exists there to suit Irans agenda. They have armed Hamas to such an extent that Hamas are more powerful than a lot of armies. Iran's policy line is destroy Israel, I can fully appreciate Israels view on self preservation and defense. I have no problem with terrorists, or those who harbour them paying the price.

You mean like the settlers funded and protected by Israel (and also with funding from the USl), who are armed to the teeth and engaged in constant violent colonial expansion in the West Bank? Then there is the US billions Israel uses to fund there whole violent colonial expansion.

KeithAFC · 14-09-2011 4:36pm

dlofnep wrote: »

So how does opposing a statehood bid make Israel safer?

There is many problems like the Islamic groups with guns and bombs who will still be trying to blow Israel up even if they get a state. The situation will not just improve because they get a state. It will just be a better chance for armed Islamic groups to use the state to launch attacks into Israel and a war will certainly happen.

hatrickpatrick · 14-09-2011 4:36pm

No - We should oppose the UN bid.

johngalway wrote: »

It's quite obvious.

No it's not. How do you define the left, and do you have any proposed theories on why the left supports the Palestinians?

Biggins · 14-09-2011 4:38pm

I assume the Palestinian's have a case for statehood (fair enough) so I have a genuine question - if someone would be willing to inform this person with an answer:

Regardless of Irelands position - why should the Palestinian's NOT get a state if they have a good case?

Thats the question for as I am thinking (and this is coming from one that is admittedly NOT fully aware of the whole topic) that if they are deserving of being awarded a statehood - why not should we then support them?
I always have done things on the principle that "its the right thing to do". Sometimes not easy - but life is never easy anyway.

FlutterinBantam · 14-09-2011 4:39pm

KeithAFC wrote: »

There is many problems like the Islamic groups with guns and bombs who will still be trying to blow Israel up even if they get a state. The situation will not just improve because they get a state. It will just be a better chance for armed Islamic groups to use the state to launch attacks into Israel and a war will certainly happen.

Steady on K, you are being logical here, doesn't compute with a lot of these lads.;)

sdanseo · 14-09-2011 4:40pm

No - We should oppose the UN bid.

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Tell that bull to the people who work, or whose employment is dependent on US multis.Declare your interest, pal

Or those who think that the US is protecting us from the mad mullahs who ,quite frankly ,don't give a fcuk what the outcome of their terrorist activities is.

I think I have declared my intrest, but although I do work for a multinational, it's not US based.

Regardless, I don't believe we should be held to ransom by a foreign government over jobs here. On a point of principle, we should find the investment needed elsewhere if it came to it. We didn't found a nation just to have it bullied about by the big boys.

alastair · 14-09-2011 4:44pm

No - We should oppose the UN bid.

johngalway wrote: »

Violence exists there to suit Irans agenda. They have armed Hamas to such an extent that Hamas are more powerful than a lot of armies. Iran's policy line is destroy Israel, I can fully appreciate Israels view on self preservation and defense. I have no problem with terrorists, or those who harbour them paying the price.

Not a Hamas apologist, but Hamas have nothing like the military capability of any army. Maybe you're confusing them with Hezbullah? Hamas are the lads with the AK47's and improvised rockets.

Secondly - Hamas and the IDF had a working ceasefire, until the IDF decided to enter Gaza, kill some Hamas people (again - who had been adhering to the ceasefire), and proceed to flatten Gaza and kill many civilians. Kind of hard to make the case for 'preservation and defence' with those sort of actions.

Chuck Stone · 14-09-2011 4:44pm

johngalway wrote: »

It's quite obvious.

You avoided answering my question.

If it's obvious tell me what you mean by it.

Alopex · 14-09-2011 4:45pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Ah lad - time to get real. The US provides military funds to the tune of 3 billion annually. The Palestinians are basically armed with sticks, stones and a few fire-crackers. Israel has nuclear war-heads, tanks, f-16 fighter planes, and top of the range military equipment. Bit of perspective is in order.

If Israel is unwilling to agree to freeze it's illegal settlements as a pre-condition to talks - then the Palestinians have no alternative but to go through the UN.

What so RPGs grow on trees now?

FlutterinBantam · 14-09-2011 4:48pm

sdeire wrote: »

I think I have declared my intrest, but although I do work for a multinational, it's not US based.

Regardless, I don't believe we should be held to ransom by a foreign government over jobs here. On a point of principle, we should find the investment needed elsewhere if it came to it. We didn't found a nation just to have it bullied about by the big boys.

Who is being bullied ?

Punters like you quite frankly boil my piss.

We are not being bullied by anybody.

Where is this 'elsewhere' you bleat about, name these people?

What 'ransom' are you talking about?

If we could survive without outside help and intercourse I would agree but we can't.

So get your leftie shirt off your back and face facts.

johngalway · 14-09-2011 4:48pm

dlofnep wrote: »

The Palestinians are basically armed with sticks, stones and a few fire-crackers.

That is an utter lie, and you know it to be so. Hamas has bragged that is has 40,000+ rockets and it has time and again demonstrated it's will to use them.

wes wrote: »

You mean like the settlers funded and protected by Israel (and also with funding from the USl), who are armed to the teeth and engaged in constant violent colonial expansion in the West Bank? Then there is the US billions Israel uses to fund there whole violent colonial expansion.

I don't agree with the settlements. I do agree with Israel trying to guarantee it's own security. Geographically it's a very narrow state, with an obvious strategic flaw, it can be physically cut in half by hostile armies without those guarentees.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

No it's not. How do you define the left, and do you have any proposed theories on why the left supports the Palestinians?

Yes it is, check 99% of these threads and follow the politics of those most ardent Palestinian defenders.

alastair · 14-09-2011 4:49pm

No - We should oppose the UN bid.

KeithAFC wrote: »

There is many problems like the Islamic groups with guns and bombs who will still be trying to blow Israel up even if they get a state. The situation will not just improve because they get a state. It will just be a better chance for armed Islamic groups to use the state to launch attacks into Israel and a war will certainly happen.

Blow Israel up? How does that work?

Statehood for Palestine doesn't impact on the security of Israel one way or another - if someone wants to get a bomb into Israel they are still met by the same security measures.

johngalway · 14-09-2011 4:50pm

alastair wrote: »

Not a Hamas apologist, but Hamas have nothing like the military capability of any army. Maybe you're confusing them with Hezbullah? Hamas are the lads with the AK47's and improvised rockets.

Secondly - Hamas and the IDF had a working ceasefire, until the IDF decided to enter Gaza, kill some Hamas people (again - who had been adhering to the ceasefire), and proceed to flatten Gaza and kill many civilians. Kind of hard to make the case for 'preservation and defence' with those sort of actions.

Possibly so!

But, they're both terrorist organizations out to murder people so they go in the same category in my book.

hatrickpatrick · 14-09-2011 4:50pm

No - We should oppose the UN bid.

johngalway wrote: »

Yes it is, check 99% of these threads and follow the politics of those most ardent Palestinian defenders.

You didn't answer my question though. How do you define "The left"?
And why do you think "the left" supports Palestine? What reason or motivation do you think they have for doing so?

johngalway · 14-09-2011 4:53pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

You didn't answer my question though. How do you define "The left"?
And why do you think "the left" supports Palestine? What reason or motivation do you think they have for doing so?

I did answer your question, in relation to the point I was making. Just not to your satisfaction, there's a difference.

wes · 14-09-2011 4:54pm

No - We should oppose the UN bid.

johngalway wrote: »

I don't agree with the settlements. I do agree with Israel trying to guarantee it's own security. Geographically it's a very narrow state, with an obvious strategic flaw, it can be physically cut in half by hostile armies without those guarentees.

So you say you don't agree with settlements and then in the next sentence you essentially defend them..... That some proper double speak right there.

Sorry, but calling Israel violence "self defence" is utter bull. Its a clear double standard, where one group is accorded more rights then the other. What about Palestinians right to security from fanatical settlers (a bunch of terrorist who are openly funded by groups in the West, and not to mention complete support from the Israeli government for most of them) and the IDF, who want kick them off there land, and make them live in tiny Bantustans? Why do there rights not matter?

Also, I think only crazy people, think colonizing more land (not to mention putting Israeli's in danger amongst a population who will hate settlers for stealing there land and the constant terrorism the settlers visit on Palestinians), in a conflict about land will make you safer. All it will lead to is continuing conflict, and not security. Also, you ignore the whole point of Israel ideology of Zionism, which has always been about creating a Jewish state in all of historic Palestine, which shows me that it isn't about security, but about land and some stuff written in the Bible, to justify the land claim.

FlutterinBantam · 14-09-2011 4:56pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

You didn't answer my question though. How do you define "The left"?
And why do you think "the left" supports Palestine? What reason or motivation do you think they have for doing so?

They like to oppose the right.

They like to support anti-establishment views.

They like to wallow in a sea of 'entitlement' culture which opposes any attempt at self advancement and risk.

There are a core of smug people who like to sit back from a safe environment and shunt out propaganda without having ang physical connection with the cause.

Put bluntly, they can operate from behind a keyboard, but not with hot lead whizzing around them;)

Who do you think you are fooling?

KeithAFC · 14-09-2011 4:57pm

alastair wrote: »

Blow Israel up? How does that work?

Statehood for Palestine doesn't impact on the security of Israel one way or another - if someone wants to get a bomb into Israel they are still met by the same security measures.

How does it not? If they get a state, it would be much easier for armed Islamic groups from all over to enter Palestine and use it and its boarders as a launch pad to attack Israel.

Israel is well within its right to defend itself and hopefully they do just that.

johngalway · 14-09-2011 4:58pm

wes wrote: »

So you say you don't agree with settlements and then in the next sentence you essentially defend them..... That some proper double speak right there.

Sorry, but calling Israel violence "self defence" is utter bull. Its a clear double standard, where one group is accorded more rights then the other. What about Palestinians right to security from fanatical settlers (a bunch of terrorist who are openly funded by groups in the West, and not to mention complete support from the Israeli government for most of them) who want kick them off there land? Why do there rights not matter?

Also, I think only crazy people, think colonizing more land (not to mention putting Israeli's in danger amongst a population who will hate settlers for stealing there land and the constant terrorism the settlers visit on Palestinians), in a conflict about land will make you safer. All it will lead to is continuing conflict.

Really, is it? You might want to do some checking on Israels history and see that other neighbouring states have in the past attacked it with the intent of destroying it. And might I add that on one of those occasions Israel WERE a nuclear power and didn't use their mega firecrackers. So, they're obviously a bunch of unreasonable hotheads.

Now, settlements and state defense can be easily separated. If you don't understand that, well ,I can't help you. An Israeli house in the West Bank isn't going to stop a hostile tank. However, territory, geographical space, gives Israel a buffer to soak up any future attack, that is important and it's not something that should be left go softly.

wes · 14-09-2011 4:59pm

No - We should oppose the UN bid.

KeithAFC wrote: »

How does it not? If they get a state, it would be much easier for armed Islamic groups from all over to enter Palestine and use it and its boarders as a launch pad to attack Israel.

Armed settler groups are doing that as we speak, on a regular basis in the West Bank. Strange how you fail to mention that......

KeithAFC wrote: »

Israel is well within its right to defend itself and hopefully they do just that.

I fail to see how stealing Palestinian land in the West Bank and East Jerusalem can be seen as self defence, and in fact it is called colonialism.

dulpit · 14-09-2011 4:59pm

No - We should oppose the UN bid.

Nice debate here, good to see everybody's opinion is wrong. :rolleyes:

Personally speaking I think they should be recognised as a nation, as should Taiwan and Tibet to name 2 others... However, will we support it as a country? Probably not, we were very late to the show with regards to supporting the Libyan transitional council...

alastair · 14-09-2011 5:00pm

No - We should oppose the UN bid.

johngalway wrote: »

Possibly so!

But, they're both terrorist organizations out to murder people so they go in the same category in my book.

No concerns about the terrorism of the IDF, the collective punishment policy, the use of white phosphorous shells on built- up civilian areas, the habitual lies about the legitimacy of military action, the massively one-sided nature of civilian casualties in the conflict? Hamas aren't very palatable, but look at the context - there's a lot of terror going about on both sides.

Should Ireland support the Palestinian statehood bid?

Should Ireland support the Palestinian statehood bid? 238 votes

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