Former Derry bishop criticises compulsory celibacy for priests

Alopex

COMPULSORY CELIBACY for the Catholic priesthood and criteria employed in selecting bishops are criticised in a new book by former bishop of Derry Edward Daly, published today.

“I ask myself, more and more, why celibacy should be the great sacred and unyielding arbiter, the paradigm of diocesan priesthood?

“Why not prayerfulness, conviction in the faith, knowledge of the faith, ability to communicate in the modern age, honesty, integrity, humility, a commitment to social justice, a work ethic, respect for others, compassion and caring”, he asks in A Troubled See: Memoirs of a Derry Bishop.

“Surely many of these qualities are at least as important in a diocesan priest as celibacy – yet celibacy seems to be perceived as the predominant obligation, the sine qua non,” he continued. Celibacy was “an obligation that has caused many wonderful potential candidates to turn away from a vocation, and other fine men to resign their priesthood at great loss to the church,” he says.

“If things continue as they are, a lot of parish communities will not have a priest in a few years’ time, and those that they have will be older, weary and greatly overworked,” he said. “Something needs to be done and done urgently and I hope that senior members of the clergy and laity make their views more forcefully known, views that are often expressed privately but seldom publicly.”

He added that “there is certainly an important and enduring place for celibate priesthood. But I believe that there should also be a place in the modern Catholic Church for a married priesthood and for men who do not wish to commit themselves to celibacy.”

He felt that if more Irish bishops were drawn from among parish clergy it would be “a positive development”. He also felt the powers in Rome always considered “teaching and orthodoxy were primary and that parish pastoral experience was secondary”.

I'm friends with a few RCs who are of the same opinion. Should this happen? Seeing as they let Anglican priests who have families become RC priests I don't see why not.

Would probably give a new life to the church

Snickers Man

Good old Ned. One of the nicer guys!

prinz

They'd have to up the wages paid to priests but in the long run I don't see why celibacy could be optional rather than obligatory. That said, I can see the benefits of being celibate/single too.

JimiTime

Obligatory celibacy is completely against Christian teaching. One can of course voluntarily be celibate, but it is against biblical teaching to demand one be celibate in order to oversee a congregation.

1 Timothy 4

Then again though, a Christian priesthood is also against biblical teaching so.....

Cybercelesta

JimiTime wrote: »

Obligatory celibacy is completely against Christian teaching. One can of course voluntarily be celibate, but it is against biblical teaching to demand one be celibate in order to oversee a congregation.

1 Timothy 4

Then again though, a Christian priesthood is also against biblical teaching so.....

“YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK.”

http://nasb.scripturetext.com/hebrews/5.htm

Jesus as Priest and Victim set an example, He celebrated the very first Mass at the Last Supper, and he was celibate!

super_furry

That's something I've never understood, is there any call for priests to be celibate in the bible?

philologos

super_furry wrote: »

That's something I've never understood, is there any call for priests to be celibate in the bible?

Not that I can recall. This was neither true of the Old Testament Jewish priesthood or about ministers in the New Testament church. It was largely why it was re-evaluated during the Reformation.

georgieporgy

Every now and then along comes someone who wished they were the pope. It is soon evident why they are not.

soterpisc

super_furry wrote: »

That's something I've never understood, is there any call for priests to be celibate in the bible?

Nope... its not part of Faith and its not part of original tradition.

However Celibacy has an important role in the Church, Christ was celibate.

Its not just ex-Anglicans who are married and ordained, but also in the Church there are many others, Eastern Catholic and Maronite Churches also Catholic.

However in the Orthodox church not in Communion with Rome there is also a Strong Celibate tradition and many Monks who live that life.

Personally I think there should be a case made for Married Catholic Men who have lived their faith and worked in the Parish to be given the option to be ordained. Problem is how this is administered as priests are not really paid that much and certainly it would not support a family. Its hard enough being a priest without having to juggle wife and kids in the mix.. Certainly celibacy has its practical side.

Anyway its a complex area, I don't think a Blanket ban in the Roman rite helps, Local bishops should have the power to ordain some married men on a case by case basis, lay deacons who have served the church for years or Catholic men of good standing...In the early church there were many married priests.. its a historical fact.

Spacedog

Obviously all priests have some form of sexuality, Basic male physiology means that they have to shoot one off somehow, on a regular basis, Either through excited dreams for the most staunch observers of the Lords word, to manual tension relief for those more liberal interpretation of scripture.

It might be hard for people to think about it, but even cardinals and yes, the Pope himself have working genitalia while will ejaculate many hundreds of litres of ejaculate in their lifetimes.

Once you consider this, the only points that remain in this discussion is:

-Where that ejaculate should and should not go?
-What is acceptable for a member of the clergy to be thinking about at the point of no return.
-Does it matter?

Keaton

Who's going to pay for these married priests, their kept wives, nice house, two cars, plus a university education for each of their five kids? Oh, and a pedigree dog for the children. Plus foreign holidays every year. We've not thought this through, have we?

alex73

Keaton wrote: »

Who's going to pay for these married priests, their kept wives, nice house, two cars, plus a university education for each of their five kids? Oh, and a pedigree dog for the children. Plus foreign holidays every year. We've not thought this through, have we?

Nope, it hasn't./.. But if a mans Kids are grown and he wants to dedicate his life to church would it be possible then? Are there not grounds for the Local Bishop to look at it case by case?

Keaton

alex73 wrote: »

Nope, it hasn't./.. But if a mans Kids are grown and he wants to dedicate his life to church would it be possible then? Are there not grounds for the Local Bishop to look at it case by case?

My objections to married priests are thus:

1. Cost - who will pay for it???

2. Availability - married priests must be committed to family so.... Father, is there time for confession now or do I have to go to a monastery 50 miles away because you have no time?

3. Chancers and messers - a married priesthood could be a very cushy number for a chancer or a messer. Young fella? Get married, say a couple Masses Sunday, rest of the week off! Sweet!!!! What's not to like? We don't need messers or chancers as Catholic priests. We need good men who are prepared to sacrifice everything they have (the possibility of wife and family included) for the Church, which becomes their Bride.

Of course, there are exceptions - Anglican converts, and maybe even older, proven men. But as a rule, celibacy must remain the norm, I think.

alex73

Keaton wrote: »

My objections to married priests are thus:

1. Cost - who will pay for it???

2. Availability - married priests must be committed to family so.... Father, is there time for confession now or do I have to go to a monastery 50 miles away because you have no time?

3. Chancers and messers - a married priesthood could be a very cushy number for a chancer or a messer. Young fella? Get married, say a couple Masses Sunday, rest of the week off! Sweet!!!! What's not to like? We don't need messers or chancers as Catholic priests. We need good men who are prepared to sacrifice everything they have (the possibility of wife and family included) for the Church, which becomes their Bride.

Of course, there are exceptions - Anglican converts, and maybe even older, proven men. But as a rule, celibacy must remain the norm, I think.

I have a married priest who is a friend. He is Catholic, (greek catholic), his wife is a teacher, no kids yet. They support each other in the faith. Its a matter of working over the logisitics of married life and priesthood. Church needs to set guidelines. Reality is there are married priests in the Catholic church, there always has been, its a normative law from a era when church land was being passed to priests kids.

However in the Orthodox church they see celibate priests and Monks as holiest and most dedicated part of the church, so there is a lot to be said for a person who dedicates they life only to christ.

Keaton

alex73 wrote: »

I have a married priest who is a friend. He is Catholic, (greek catholic), his wife is a teacher, no kids yet. They support each other in the faith. Its a matter of working over the logisitics of married life and priesthood. Church needs to set guidelines. Reality is there are married priests in the Catholic church, there always has been, its a normative law from a era when church land was being passed to priests kids.

It's about more than merely land. Pope BXVI has spoken very strongly in recent years about the meaning of a celibate priesthood and how this relates to Christ.

alex73

Keaton wrote: »

It's about more than merely land. Pope BXVI has spoken very strongly in recent years about the meaning of a celibate priesthood and how this relates to Christ.

Yeap... And its part of the church, but there is place for both in the church. I suppose the holy spirit will guide the church in the right direction.

But the question that needs to be answered, are the few Catholic married priests in the church any less dedicated, faithful, commited than the celibate ones? If not then its a area that should be reviewed under certain circumstances.

Fanny Cradock

Spacedog wrote: »

Obviously all priests have some form of sexuality, Basic male physiology means that they have to shoot one off somehow, on a regular basis, Either through excited dreams for the most staunch observers of the Lords word, to manual tension relief for those more liberal interpretation of scripture.

It might be hard for people to think about it, but even cardinals and yes, the Pope himself have working genitalia while will ejaculate many hundreds of litres of ejaculate in their lifetimes.

Once you consider this, the only points that remain in this discussion is:

-Where that ejaculate should and should not go?
-What is acceptable for a member of the clergy to be thinking about at the point of no return.
-Does it matter?

This thread is about the prerequisite for celibacy amongst the Catholic clery. It's not about whether the Pope has nocturnal emissions or not.

Now stay on topic and stop acting the maggot.

Keaton

alex73 wrote: »

Yeap... And its part of the church, but there is place for both in the church. I suppose the holy spirit will guide the church in the right direction.

But the question that needs to be answered, are the few Catholic married priests in the church any less dedicated, faithful, commited than the celibate ones? If not then its a area that should be reviewed under certain circumstances.

Married priest: 'Single clergy better placed to serve God'

A married Roman Catholic priest from Burnley has said he believes the church is correct to prefer single celibate clergy in their parishes.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-14558165

hotmail.com

How many priests are actually celebate? I'd imagine it's very few. It's healthy, natural and normal to want to be sexual. It's unhealthy, unnatural and abnormal to be celebate.

Fanny Cradock

Are you suggesting that the decision to abstain from sex is in and of itself a damaging pursuit? Evidence plz.

Monty.

Celibacy is discipline in the Latin rite of the church, not a teaching, the church can change it and make it optional if they wish, perhaps they should consider it, but as the Vatican rightly thinks in terms of centuries and not years, it won't be changing any time soon.

On the other hand, if celibacy was good enough for Jesus, it should be a good enough example for his apostles. A Catholic Priest has a 24/7/365 commitment to his parish, and has a lot of extra sacraments and ministering to do compared to a Protestant minister. I'm not sure such a commitment would be either fair or easy on the family of any Priest. The apostles had to leave their families to follow Jesus.

hotmail.com

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Are you suggesting that the decision to abstain from sex is in and of itself a damaging pursuit? Evidence plz.

Not sex, just being sexual. Can anyone say with certainty that priests don't masterbate? Because I bet they all do.

Have people forgotten about the former famous bishops?

hotmail.com

Monty. wrote: »

Celibacy is discipline in the Latin rite of the church, not a teaching, the church can change it and make it optional if they wish, perhaps they should consider it, but as the Vatican rightly thinks in terms of centuries and not years, it won't be changing any time soon.

On the other hand, if celibacy was good enough for Jesus, it should be a good enough example for his apostles. A Catholic Priest has a 24/7/365 commitment to his parish, and has a lot of extra sacraments and ministering to do compared to a Protestant minister. I'm not sure such a commitment would be either fair or easy on the family of any Priest. The apostles had to leave their families to follow Jesus.

Please some Dublin priests do very little. They are hardly rushed off their feets.

DjFlin

I dont see why priests should have to be celibate. Given the decline in people becoming priests, I think getting rid of celibacy could only help the Church.

soterpisc wrote: »

However Celibacy has an important role in the Church, Christ was celibate.

No, he was just awkward around women.

Monty.

hotmail.com wrote: »

Please some Dublin priests do very little. They are hardly rushed off their feets.

Can you back this up with any proof/facts please ?

Keaton

Realistically speaking, married priests would probably have to have a main job, and do priesting in their spare time.

This may have been what Cardinal Ratzinger had in mind when he made his famous German radio prophecy.

"From today's crisis, a church will emerge tomorrow that will have lost a great deal," he said on German radio. "She will be small and, to a large extent, will have to start from the beginning. She will no longer be able to fill many of the buildings created in her period of great splendor. Because of the smaller number of her followers, she will lose many of her privileges in society. Contrary to what has happened until now, she will present herself much more as a community of volunteers ... As a small community, she will demand much more from the initiative of each of her members and she will certainly also acknowledge new forms of ministry and will raise up to the priesthood proven Christians who have other jobs ... It will make her poor and a church of the little people ... All this will require time. The process will be slow and painful."

I dunno. I think the main issue is the good of souls, the highest law of the Church. If having married priests is for the true good of the Church, then so be it. It is up to the Church to decide. I'm not convinced it would be a good idea to drop celibacy, but then I don't get to make these decisions. In any case, if there were married priests, I think it would be on a very restricted basis. I think a lot of safeguards would have to be put in place to discern that men were spiritually and psychologically suitable and not just looking for a cushy number. The celibacy requirement at least means that those looking for a cushy number need not apply. It also means the person may be totally dedicated to God and His Church.

Cybercelesta

The 'main' job would help with supporting the priest's family, no?

hotmail.com

Monty. wrote: »

Can you back this up with any proof/facts please ?

Have you any evidence to say that priests don't masterbate?

Cybercelesta

hotmail.com wrote: »

Have you any evidence to say that priests don't masterbate?

But you said you bet they ALL did, have you any evidence to support that assumption?

Keaton

Cybercelesta wrote: »

The 'main' job would help with supporting the priest's family, no?

Yeah but then will there be time to look after the wife and family, and do priesting? Something will have to come to the wall, and I suggest it will be priesting.

''You never spend time with me!'' - priest's wife.

''Daddy you never spend time with us!'' - priest's children.

''Father you're never there for us!'' - spiritual children aka lay faithful.

Cybercelesta

Keaton wrote: »

Yeah but then will there be time to look after the wife and family, and do priesting? Something will have to come to the wall, and I suggest it will be priesting.

''You never spend time with me!'' - priest's wife.

''Daddy you never spend time with us!'' - priest's children.

''Father you're never there for us!'' - spiritual children aka lay faithful.

Like you I will go with whatever the Chruch decides, I don't think celibacy will be abolished any time soon!

PDN

Posters, please avoid feeding the troll by responding to hotmail.com. He/she won't be able to respond anyway until their ban is expired.

gent9662

Monty. wrote: »

Celibacy is discipline in the Latin rite of the church, not a teaching, the church can change it and make it optional if they wish, perhaps they should consider it, but as the Vatican rightly thinks in terms of centuries and not years, it won't be changing any time soon.

On the other hand, if celibacy was good enough for Jesus, it should be a good enough example for his apostles. A Catholic Priest has a 24/7/365 commitment to his parish, and has a lot of extra sacraments and ministering to do compared to a Protestant minister. I'm not sure such a commitment would be either fair or easy on the family of any Priest. The apostles had to leave their families to follow Jesus.

Why then are they often unavailable? I know a number of priests that regularly attend Croke Park, Concerts and many many other activities unrelated to anything in their parish.

Monty.

dclane wrote: »

Why then are they often unavailable? I know a number of priests that regularly attend Croke Park, Concerts and many many other activities unrelated to anything in their parish.

The scandal of it !
Why do you think they are not entitled to attend a sporting/community event like anyone else in the community, and why do you think another Priest is not covering for them ?
Why do you think they could not perform the last rights if called to at such an event ?
Why do you think they could not be called away from such an event if they were needed ?

alex73

dclane wrote: »

Why then are they often unavailable? I know a number of priests that regularly attend Croke Park, Concerts and many many other activities unrelated to anything in their parish.

As well they are supposed to have a healthy balance!!. The parish has to be covered and when one priest is away he has to get someone to cover.

alex73

Cybercelesta wrote: »

Like you I will go with whatever the Chruch decides, I don't think celibacy will be abolished any time soon!

http://www.catholic.org/hf/faith/story.php?id=33005

Interesting article about a married Catholic priest and his family. I am not pushing the Church to change its rule,,, just to look at each married man in particular to see if he is right to be ordained or not.

Keaton

alex73 wrote: »

http://www.catholic.org/hf/faith/story.php?id=33005

Interesting article about a married Catholic priest and his family. I am not pushing the Church to change its rule,,, just to look at each married man in particular to see if he is right to be ordained or not.

I think there are some serious spiritual issues to be aware of.

St. Paul reminds us that the person who is single is able to be entirely devoted to God, whereas the married are having to devote themselves to their spouse, so they are not fully able to serve God.

Not only that, but Paul encourages those who are single to remain so, for it is a better state.

Let me put it like this: it is one thing to strive for priestly holiness as a celibate; to do the same with a wife and children is even more demanding. The man who is single is not involved in the carnal aspect of marriage. I would say he is better placed to pursue holy purity.

In marriage, there are all sorts of danger, from a spiritual point of view, that the single person does not, assuming he has mastered himself, and I would say that that is easier for the single than the married.

Remember also that a married priest must be the model par excellence of married life - that means no contraception, full stop. The couple must be a sterling example for the lay-faithful, who are looking on.

I don't really buy this idea that a married priest understands better the needs of his people; this is like a heresy you might call experientialism, whereby only those who have direct felt experience, have anything useful to contribute. That is false.

I also wonder about priests in the early Church who were married. I understand that they were required to forego relations with their wives, whether permanently, or before they served at the altar. I am not sure about this though.

I had a joke piece about married priests, but due to the limitations of Google, I can't quite locate it. If I do, I would like to share it with you all.

I dunno. These are only my thoughts on the matter. I could be accused of many things, including being wrong.

Keaton

Retired Irish bishop: Latin Mass ‘lifeless and somewhat meaningless’
September 14, 2011
Bishop Edward Daly, the retired Irish bishop who is calling for a change in the discipline of clerical celibacy, “was ‘deeply disappointed’ by an experience of celebration of the Mass in Latin some years ago, which he found ‘lifeless and somewhat meaningless,’” according to an Irish Times report on his newly published memoirs. Bishop Daly added that he is “very happy with the liturgy and language of the Mass as we now have it.”

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=11745


-- The holy sacrifice of the Mass is meaningless???? And these men... were in charge of our Church for how long???

alex73

Keaton wrote: »

Retired Irish bishop: Latin Mass ‘lifeless and somewhat meaningless’
September 14, 2011
Bishop Edward Daly, the retired Irish bishop who is calling for a change in the discipline of clerical celibacy, “was ‘deeply disappointed’ by an experience of celebration of the Mass in Latin some years ago, which he found ‘lifeless and somewhat meaningless,’” according to an Irish Times report on his newly published memoirs. Bishop Daly added that he is “very happy with the liturgy and language of the Mass as we now have it.”

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=11745


-- The holy sacrifice of the Mass is meaningless???? And these men... were in charge of our Church for how long???

Sad.. One thing i do love was the latin mass.. Not that language is important as such, but it gave a certain weight to me.

alex73

@keaton post 37, on celibacy we can agree its obviously not a dogma of the church. Some apostles were probably married. When they preached and formed communities in greece married men (or men who had families) were made priests.. celibacy was not a requirement for the priesthood in early church.

I know the scripture references on celibacy, but i believe there is a place for both in the church.

However since i actually have married catholic and orthodox friends how are priests and also firends who are celibate priests there is a strong spritual tendancy for faithful towards those who are celibate.

Christ was celibate.. If you REALLY want to imitate him, then follow him.

But since there is no teaching forbidding a married man being ordained.. Then the option should remain open

Monty.

Keaton wrote: »

Retired Irish bishop: Latin Mass ‘lifeless and somewhat meaningless’
September 14, 2011
Bishop Edward Daly, the retired Irish bishop who is calling for a change in the discipline of clerical celibacy, “was ‘deeply disappointed’ by an experience of celebration of the Mass in Latin some years ago, which he found ‘lifeless and somewhat meaningless,’” according to an Irish Times report on his newly published memoirs. Bishop Daly added that he is “very happy with the liturgy and language of the Mass as we now have it.”

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=11745


-- The holy sacrifice of the Mass is meaningless???? And these men... were in charge of our Church for how long???

I'm very careful about forming an opinion on mis-quotes, but I would really hope Bishop Daly could do better than try bow out as Mr. Popular.

Keaton

Can anyone help me find my priest humour?

It was a piece about the things people would say if the priest was married. It was a list of things like this:

If Father is in the Church, he never spends time with his family.
If Father is seen at a football game with his kids, he never spends time hearing confessions in church.
If Father's marriage is perfect, the people say he's too lofty an example for us.
If Father has marital difficulties, the people will say 'some example he is for us!''
Etc...

And so on. It was very well written. Anyone help me locate it? See, Google's good, but it's not that good. :pac:

alex73

Keaton wrote: »

Can anyone help me find my priest humour?

It was a piece about the things people would say if the priest was married. It was a list of things like this:

If Father is in the Church, he never spends time with his family.What if his family has grown and moved out?
If Father is seen at a football game with his kids, he never spends time hearing confessions in church.Same as above
If Father's marriage is perfect, the people say he's too lofty an example for us.He shows example
If Father has marital difficulties, the people will say 'some example he is for us!''He is human
Etc...

Comments in red above
And so on. It was very well written. Anyone help me locate it? See, Google's good, but it's not that good. :pac:

Keaton

alex73 wrote: »

Keaton wrote: »

Can anyone help me find my priest humour?

It was a piece about the things people would say if the priest was married. It was a list of things like this:

If Father is in the Church, he never spends time with his family.What if his family has grown and moved out?
If Father is seen at a football game with his kids, he never spends time hearing confessions in church.Same as above
If Father's marriage is perfect, the people say he's too lofty an example for us.He shows example
If Father has marital difficulties, the people will say 'some example he is for us!''He is human
Etc...

No, it's meant to be a joke. I can't find it anywhere on the interweb!

ISAW

In order to understand why it is not allowed you have to understand what effect marriage has.

Although marriage was discouraged at a much earlier date, the first Lateran Council (ninth Ecumenical Council, 1123), the first in the West, held during the reign of Pope Calixtus 2nd; for which no acts or contemporary accounts survive made the practice outlawed.
http://www.abelard.org/councils/councils.htm#ec11

Various other canons were reiterated such as condemnation of simony, that is, the buying or selling of ecclesiastical privileges such as pardons and benefices. Laymen were prohibited from disposing of church property, clerics in major orders were forbidden to marry, and ‘uncanonical’ consecration of bishops was forbidden. There were edicts on crusading, the truce of god and the Peace of god.

Abelard married Heloise in 1117.
Where does all this fit into the clerical celibacy issue?

We are currently, probably because of the coming 2066 date seeing in the media a lot about the Normans. The Norsemen were basically wandering viking warriors who occupied part of France, and after a few centuries became knights built castles settled and became Normans. The "King" of Paris made a deal with them to leave them alone in their duchy "Normandy " if they stopped raiding Paris and burning it to the ground. The successful Norman invasion of England prompted the rise of the West

This invasion

consolidates the integration of Norman power with the power of the Roman Church. This merger of interests was a major advance in Norman and Roman influence and power. A major industrial revolution was underway in northern Europe, founded on the great increase of agricultural productivity and leading to a considerable population growth

Well so what?
Well William "The conqueror" was also know as "the Bastard".

Marriage became important as a means of legitimising the transmission of power, thus lowering the levels of internecine disputes. Marriage has many political advantages. It contains competition for females. It generates sexual shortages, which can be exploited by the authorities. It helps females to control at least the meagre resources of one man. It leaves males with more time available for production and war. It slows the spread of disease. The male authorities, of course, very rarely obey the rules, but by such ‘rules’ they benefit from much reduced competition for women. Henry 1st is known to have produced over twenty ‘bastards’ whom he raised up to help him administer the kingdom’s growing complexities.

So much for the State what about the clergy? Well practically

The clerical administrator class could concentrate upon their tasks without the irritation of squalling brats, in the meanwhile having easy entry into every house while the men were out tilling the land.

so this "corruption" of body ( personal and of the church as a whole and spirit came to a head)

The supposedly unmarried clergy tended to keep concubines, often under the guise of housekeepers and so on, while avoiding legal entanglement. With the Manichean thread running through Christianism, allied to the clever monkey’s confusions with sex as they struggle to rise above their animal roots, the rationalisations and romanticisation of ‘marriage’ become rather attractive. Authority has therefore been both able and inclined to endow avowed ‘celibacy’ with a PR cachet. Marriage tends to isolate people into couples, thus lowering the ability to facilitate undesirable group action. All in all, marriage makes a very attractive package for any ruling class

the Next council in 1139 , the second Lateran Council, declared invalid all marriages of those in major orders and of professed monks, canons, lay brothers, and nuns.

So you have to put the Normans, rise of the West and power of Knights, crusades, Schims heresies (e.g. Manichaeanism; Nicolaism) into the pot before you examine what emerges.

Even much later by the time of the Council of Constance (sixteenth Ecumenical Council, 1414 – 1418) was prompted by Holy Roman Emperor Sigismund to solve the "Three Popes" problem. constance also surpressed Hus

Hus studied Wycliffe's works and later his theological writings, which were brought into Prague in 1401. Hus was influenced by Wycliffe's proposals for reform of the Roman clergy. The clerical estates owned about one-half of all the land in Bohemia, and the great wealth and simoniacal [18] practices of the higher clergy aroused jealousy and resentment among the poor priests. The Bohemian peasantry, too, resented the church as one of the heaviest land taxers. There was, thus, a large potential base of support for any church reform movement at a time when the authority of the papacy itself was discredited by the Great Schism.

I remember some time ago reading a list of supplies for constance. It included things like 10,000 loaves of bread 200 carpenters and then somewhere in the list is 1,000 courtizans and concubines
This prompts
http://www.biblioteca-tercer-milenio.com/biblioteca/ingles/History-of-the-Popes/Creighton-A-HISTORY-OF-THE-PAPACY/b2-1-COUNCIL-OF-CONSTANCE-AND-JOHN_XXIII.html

he ordinary machinery of Church government, which had been weakened by the constant interference of the Pope, must be again restored. The clergy, whose knowledge, morality and zeal had all declined, must be brought back to discipline, so that their waning influence over earnest men might be re-established.

From Dietrich Vrie, a German monk who went to Constance,

Now is the reign of Simon Magus, and the riches of this world prevent just judgment. The Papal Court nourishes every kind of scandal, and turns God’s houses into a market

Vrie wrote a history of the council. At the beginning he says

“What shall I say of their luxury when the facts themselves cry out most openly on the shameless life of prelates and priests! They spare neither condition nor sex; maidens and married men and those living in the world are all alike to them”.

Clerical celibacy has to been viewed in the context of addressing these problems.

owenc

Finally they see the light.. this will be better for them because more people will become priests, but i think before this happens i think that woman should be aloud to become priests because that is discrimination and i'm surprised the catholic church hasn't been taken to court yet. But i doubt any of this will take hold because rome is so old fashioned and they like to control everyone. Just as a matter of interest do you think that an independent catholic church should be formed for the british isles independent of rome but with catholic rules? I think that would be better because then yous could make your rules whatever you want?

owenc

JimiTime wrote: »

Obligatory celibacy is completely against Christian teaching. One can of course voluntarily be celibate, but it is against biblical teaching to demand one be celibate in order to oversee a congregation.

1 Timothy 4

Then again though, a Christian priesthood is also against biblical teaching so.....

Really. :rolleyes: Why are protestant ministers getting married then if its against christian teachings?

owenc

Keaton wrote: »

Who's going to pay for these married priests, their kept wives, nice house, two cars, plus a university education for each of their five kids? Oh, and a pedigree dog for the children. Plus foreign holidays every year. We've not thought this through, have we?

The catholic church, look at all the money they have.

owenc

Monty. wrote: »

Celibacy is discipline in the Latin rite of the church, not a teaching, the church can change it and make it optional if they wish, perhaps they should consider it, but as the Vatican rightly thinks in terms of centuries and not years, it won't be changing any time soon.

On the other hand, if celibacy was good enough for Jesus, it should be a good enough example for his apostles. A Catholic Priest has a 24/7/365 commitment to his parish, and has a lot of extra sacraments and ministering to do compared to a Protestant minister. I'm not sure such a commitment would be either fair or easy on the family of any Priest. The apostles had to leave their families to follow Jesus.

I'm sorry but this really irritates me. Discipline from who? The catholic church? Why do they think they have the right to tell people what to do? I don't see the church of ireland doing that, or any other christian denomination of that matter so why do they? And how are you so sure about that, the HIGH church of ireland nearly has the exact same "sacrements" as the catholic church so how are the catholic church any different, in fact they are literally the same i've heard that they even say the hail marry.

Cybercelesta

owenc wrote: »

I'm sorry but this really irritates me. Discipline from who? The catholic church? Why do they think they have the right to tell people what to do? I don't see the church of ireland doing that, or any other christian denomination of that matter so why do they? And how are you so sure about that, the HIGH church of ireland nearly has the exact same "sacrements" as the catholic church so how are the catholic church any different, in fact they are literally the same i've heard that they even say the hail marry.

?????????????????

owenc

Cybercelesta wrote: »

?????????????????

What i asked a simple question and that question was: Discipline from who and if its the catholic church why do they think they are aloud to discipline people.