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Leopard Trek

  • 13-09-2011 1:35pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 546 ✭✭✭


    Just curious to know the thoughts of those that follow procycling on the Leopard Trek team and the year they've had.

    Personally I can't stand them and will be glad to see the back of them. The reasons being that, firstly the whole team was quite obviously set up around the bros which made their participation in all events that neither bro was partaking in, a little pointless. We'll never know how they might have fared in the Giro had tragedy not beset them, but possibly it might have gone something along the lines of the Vuelta (a chance in the TT and a sprinter who might win when all the better sprinters have dropped out of the race).

    What I dislike most is that they've subdued most of their riders, be they stars or be they emerging talent. Fuglsang and Gerdemans were both pretty awful this year. We saw none of the heroics of Cancellara or Voight (arguably excepting flashes in P-R and Flanders in the former case), which personally I think is criminal.

    I'd be a fan of a lot of their riders (not the bros) but I think this team has deprived cycling fans of seeing some potential greatness by insisting the team be about the bros and the bros only.

    And don't even get me started on the scarves in the team presentation.

    Heres hoping Bruyneel (like him or loathe him) will be a little more level-headed when it comes to planning tactics for the combined team in 2012. Word has it that Fabian will move on. The US sponsors will need to see Levi and Horner feature in some of the big races, so I reckon next year will promise more.

    Good riddance to Leopard Trek though, I reckon. They contributed little to much of anything (other than the tour) this year.


«1

Comments

  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Indeed. Just because the Shlecks weren't racing any of the spring classics meant the team didn't take them seriously at all. ;) If only they'd had some sort of classics superstud who could have been a serious contender for the win and put the frighteners on all the other teams.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 546 ✭✭✭elduggo


    Indeed. Just because the Shlecks weren't racing any of the spring classics meant the team didn't take them seriously at all. ;) If only they'd had some sort of classics superstud who could have been a serious contender for the win and put the frighteners on all the other teams.

    on the face of it Fabian was given the freedom to ride 2 races for himself. After that it was all or nothing for the brothers. With Tony Martin getting the better of him in TTs this year, the one remaining hope for some Fabian heroics was in breakaways or other smaller races, but he wasn't allowed do so. Instead he was reduced to the role of super-domestique.

    If you are happy enough to only get to see Fabian at his best 2 days in the whole year, then fine, but personally I think its criminal.

    I'm hoping he'll let loose in the worlds next week, similar to how he did in the Olympics last time when he chased down his 'boss'.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Eh, Cancellara was a protected rider for the entire spring, not just two races.

    And he's always acted as a domestic for his team in stage races. Was the same when he was with CSC/Saxo Bank.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 546 ✭✭✭elduggo


    Indeed. Just because the Shlecks weren't racing any of the spring classics meant the team didn't take them seriously at all. ;) If only they'd had some sort of classics superstud who could have been a serious contender for the win and put the frighteners on all the other teams.

    oh and the brothers did race in the (Ardennes) classics. Just not very well.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 546 ✭✭✭elduggo


    Eh, Cancellara was a protected rider for the entire spring, not just two races.

    And he's always acted as a domestic for his team in stage races. Was the same when he was with CSC/Saxo Bank.

    which other races? He didn't ride ardennes.

    Also, what about Jens? How many breakaways did we see him in?

    My feeling is that we would have seen more of these riders had they been in other teams. I also get the impression Fabian is more than a bit p*ssed off with that team and the setup there, hence the rumours about his imminent departure (fueled no doubt by his un-Fabian-like early Vuelta exit).

    And can you honest say Fuglsang and Gerdeman improved this year on last?


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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    elduggo wrote: »
    oh and the brothers did race in the (Ardennes) classics. Just not very well.

    2nd and 3rd in Liege - Bastogne - Liege was a very poor alright.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    elduggo wrote: »
    which other races? He didn't ride ardennes.

    He was second in Milan - San Remo. He won, and destroyed the field in the process, at E3. Also won the TT in Tirreno Adriactico and was 5th at the Montepashi Strade Bianchi.

    And while he has expressed an interest in one day winning LBL, he'd need to base his spring around it and lose more weight.
    elduggo wrote: »
    Also, what about Jens? How many breakaways did we see him in?

    He's 39. He's got to slow down some time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 546 ✭✭✭elduggo


    2nd and 3rd in Liege - Bastogne - Liege was a very poor alright.

    I absolutely agree. It was a complete capitulation. They couldn't have dreamed of a better outcome in the final kms, having Gilbert where they wanted him. Then what happened?

    And 2nd and 3rd in the Tour was also a complete failure in my opinion. I think it needs to be put into context that their entire year was based around that race, they had 2 of the strongest riders on the planet, yet still failed to win it. And not only failed to win it, but how.....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 546 ✭✭✭elduggo


    He's 39. He's got to slow down some time.

    sorry, are we talking about the same Jens here? Jens will go forever.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,318 ✭✭✭✭Raam


    elduggo wrote: »
    I absolutely agree. It was a complete capitulation. They couldn't have dreamed of a better outcome in the final kms, having Gilbert where they wanted him. Then what happened?

    I doubt that is where they wanted Gilbert.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 546 ✭✭✭elduggo


    Raam wrote: »
    I doubt that is where they wanted Gilbert.

    I'm sure they'd have rathered he wasn't in the race at all, but all things considered it wasn't a bad situation. 2 on 1, potentially taking turns to attack until they cracked him. And it mightn't have worked, but then again they didn't even try so who knows?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,318 ✭✭✭✭Raam


    elduggo wrote: »
    I'm sure they'd have rathered he wasn't in the race at all, but all things considered it wasn't a bad situation. 2 on 1, potentially taking turns to attack until they cracked him. And it mightn't have worked, but then again they didn't even try so who knows?

    I think that it was a very bad situation for them, as evidenced by the result. That pair have no chance of cracking Gilbert on an uphill sprint finish. If they could have attacked, then we must assume that they would have.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 546 ✭✭✭elduggo


    Raam wrote: »
    I think that it was a very bad situation for them, as evidenced by the result. That pair have no chance of cracking Gilbert on an uphill sprint finish. If they could have attacked, then we must assume that they would have.

    maybe, but if we're going to surmise, then one could also surmise that they seem to lack a winning mentality (which Gilbert certainly doesn't), which would then make one wonder why a whole team should have to spend the year working for them.

    Though I know the answer to that too - money, sponsors, etc. But that takes me back to the original point - good riddance to them!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 485 ✭✭biker_joe


    3 guys coming to the line ...2 from one team .... in most cases ... .the rider on his own will lose !! this is tactics that are learnt from a young age !!! the brothers are racing with each other years, should know hjow to finish using this tatic blind folded !!!! Goes to prove they have n't got a racing brain between them !!! Another reason why I hate radios ...... racing was less predictable before them ...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,318 ✭✭✭✭Raam


    It's an uphill sprint finish, they haven't a prayer against Gilbert. Look what he did in Amstel Gold. He brought back the break and then went on to win.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 405 ✭✭goldencleric


    elduggo wrote: »

    Good riddance to Leopard Trek though, I reckon. They contributed little to much of anything (other than the tour) this year.
    Velonews wrote:
    Leopard-Trek has been the long-term leader of the UCI WorldTour team ranking but Omega Pharma-Lotto now tops the ranking thanks to Gilbert’s success in Canada. The Belgian team has a total of 1,079 points, 61 more than Leopard-Trek.

    Right so there goes your main point. Personally I'll be sorry to see the team change into Radioschleck - I really liked the riders, the kit and the scarves (I must get my hands on one half price ;)).


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    elduggo wrote: »
    which would then make one wonder why a whole team should have to spend the year working for them.

    But the whole team didn't spend the year working for them, did they?

    I'm no fan of the Schlecks, but they were credible contenders in the races they targetted. It wasn't like they were completely off the pace.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 546 ✭✭✭elduggo


    Raam wrote: »
    It's an uphill sprint finish, they haven't a prayer against Gilbert. Look what he did in Amstel Gold. He brought back the break and then went on to win.


    I agree. I didn't feel they were going to crack him. But, it looked like they didn't even try. I agree with the point about the tactics - did they really make any attempt to employ any? Wasn't Frank even a little up the road at one point and he sat up to wait on Andy?

    Having 2 on 1 in that situation, not to win must be considered as nothing else but a failure IMO.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 546 ✭✭✭elduggo


    Right so there goes your main point. Personally I'll be sorry to see the team change into Radioschleck - I really liked the riders, the kit and the scarves (I must get my hands on one half price ;)).

    out of curiousity how many wins have they had this year (since you're on velonews like)?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 485 ✭✭biker_joe


    Gilbert does have a back wheel does n't he ?????


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 405 ✭✭goldencleric


    Raam wrote: »
    It's an uphill sprint finish, they haven't a prayer against Gilbert. Look what he did in Amstel Gold. He brought back the break and then went on to win.

    I totally agree with Raam. The Schlecks had a great tactic of isolating Gilbert but they simply could not do anything more to drop one of the greatest one day racers of all time. Andy himself was dropped by the pace they were making at one stage, there was no way they could have done anymore against Phillipe in the form he was in.

    As for Fabian, he did ride Amstel this year for the first time in quite a while. Hopefully this is a sign of things to come - my absolutely favourite rider in the peloton (well except for Pippo perhaps, but only because he looks so damn good on a bicycle)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,318 ✭✭✭✭Raam


    biker_joe wrote: »
    Gilbert does have a back wheel does n't he ?????

    Yes, he shows it to all the other riders as he sprints away from them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 546 ✭✭✭elduggo


    I totally agree with Raam. The Schlecks had a great tactic of isolating Gilbert but they simply could not do anything more to drop one of the greatest one day racers of all time.

    I thought he said that wasn't a good position for them to be in?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,573 ✭✭✭✭ednwireland


    anyway i think what leopard trek Proved (and sky last season) is that no matter how well a team is organised it takes a while to bed in the organisation (seems like a year looking at sky). i cant remeber when a new team came in and started winning (and i mean completely new not change of sponsors). its probably why you can trace back teams like movistar back to reynolds


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 405 ✭✭goldencleric


    elduggo wrote: »
    out of curiousity how many wins have they had this year (since you're on velonews like)?

    Here you go, anything else you'd like?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 485 ✭✭biker_joe


    yea the brothers lost fair and square ... Gilbert IMO is only the finished article this year ... he used to go far to early in his finishes .. .and blow up ... he has learned from his mistakes well .. the brothers don't seem to learn a thing !!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 546 ✭✭✭elduggo


    anyway i think what leopard trek Proved (and sky last season) is that no matter how well a team is organised it takes a while to bed in the organisation (seems like a year looking at sky). i cant remeber when a new team came in and started winning (and i mean completely new not change of sponsors). its probably why you can trace back teams like movistar back to reynolds

    I agree with this. I was even trying to think of the last time a team came and went in a single year, from almost nothing. Like, even Bianca (who Jan Ullrich rode for for that year) contained most of the previous Team Coast lineup. Other teams like Linda McCartney or Unibet weren't really significant enough players in the first place before their eventual demise.

    I think it is a unique case and that could possibly account for how subdued a lot of their riders seemed to be. I just always had that sense that riders were almost afraid to do anything for themselves for fear of upsetting the brothers.

    Theres a definite anti-brothers bias in my opinion, but I also feel slightly cheated out of seeing the best of Fabian and Jens.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 546 ✭✭✭elduggo


    Here you go, anything else you'd like?

    ha ha


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 546 ✭✭✭elduggo


    I count 11 wins this year, ranging in significance (I'm looking at their wikipedia page which doesn't count benatti's win on saturday, which I've added on).

    So, since we're in the mood for Gilbert comparisons, hasn't he something like 17 wins this year by himself? Wikipedia only lists 15 but I'm sure it was more than that.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,318 ✭✭✭✭Raam


    Wasn't there a rumour that Fabian wants out?


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    elduggo wrote: »
    Other teams like Linda McCartney or Unibet weren't really significant enough players in the first place before their eventual demise.

    Unibet were around for a lot longer than one year. And their successor team is still racing today (Vacansoleil)
    elduggo wrote: »
    Theres a definite anti-brothers bias in my opinion, but I also feel slightly cheated out of seeing the best of Fabian and Jens.

    What races do you think Cancellara couldn't target as a result of his supporting the Schlecks? Because from where I was standing, he was a rider who went full bore after everything between Tirreno and Paris - Roubaix.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    elduggo wrote: »
    I count 11 wins this year, ranging in significance (I'm looking at their wikipedia page which doesn't count benatti's win on saturday, which I've added on).

    So, since we're in the mood for Gilbert comparisons, hasn't he something like 17 wins this year by himself? Wikipedia only lists 15 but I'm sure it was more than that.

    They've won 22 races.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 546 ✭✭✭elduggo


    Raam wrote: »
    Wasn't there a rumour that Fabian wants out?

    yes, the rumour mentioned Sky. I have it on good authority he won't be going there though.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 546 ✭✭✭elduggo


    They've won 22 races.

    ah, so they do have more than Philip Gilbert. My/wikipedia bad


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,318 ✭✭✭✭Raam


    elduggo wrote: »
    yes, the rumour mentioned Sky. I have it on good authority he won't be going there though.

    C'mon, you can't leave it at that...


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 546 ✭✭✭elduggo


    Unibet were around for a lot longer than one year. And their successor team is still racing today (Vacansoleil)

    the Unibet situation was a disaster. They were almost a non-team given how they were treated. They first introduced me to the canyon though, so not all bad.
    What races do you think Cancellara couldn't target as a result of his supporting the Schlecks? Because from where I was standing, he was a rider who went full bore after everything between Tirreno and Paris - Roubaix.

    I'd love to have seen him have free reign in the Tour de Suisse or the Dauphine, at a time of year he has a proven record in.

    But its not even that he was supporting the Schlecks. Like, in the Vuelta for example, they weren't riding yet he was still assuming that roll of road captain/super-domestique or whatever you want to call it. It was particularly galling in the Vuelta because he was by far their best rider.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,318 ✭✭✭✭Raam


    The year Fab won the Swiss Tour it was mostly flat. This year was too lumpy for him.

    Edit: or maybe it had lots of TTs when he won it. Memory hazy now.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 546 ✭✭✭elduggo


    Raam wrote: »
    C'mon, you can't leave it at that...


    I don't know any more than that. I was talking to someone in Sky who confirmed it wasn't them he was going to. But they didn't know where he was going, only that he was more than likely going.

    But sure it'll probably be BMC like everyone else!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 485 ✭✭biker_joe


    it's funny how everyone has lose lips at the Vuelta !!!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 546 ✭✭✭elduggo


    Raam wrote: »
    The year Fab won the Swiss Tour it was mostly flat. This year was too lumpy for him.

    Edit: or maybe it had lots of TTs when he won it. Memory hazy now.

    There was plenty of hills in it. Do you not remember him being Sean Kelly's favourite for the tour de France that year?!!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 546 ✭✭✭elduggo


    biker_joe wrote: »
    it's funny how everyone has lose lips at the Vuelta !!!!

    quiet you


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    elduggo wrote: »
    I'd love to have seen him have free reign in the Tour de Suisse or the Dauphine, at a time of year he has a proven record in.

    He didn't target the Tour de Suisse this year because it was too mountainous for him. He wouldn't have had a hope in this year's Dauphine either.

    Can you imagine Cancellara holding onto a jersey on this stage?
    http://www.letour.fr/2011/CDD/COURSE/us/600/etape_par_etape.html

    So you're arguing that Leopard Trek let him down because he didn't go for two stage races he had no hope of winning?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 546 ✭✭✭elduggo


    So you're arguing that Leopard Trek let him down because he didn't go for two stage races he had no hope of winning?

    I'm arguing that they let me down.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 546 ✭✭✭elduggo


    as a cycling fan I'd like to have seen him ride with abandon a bit more. I feel with another team he'd have done that. With LT there was no scope for him to do that.

    I don't get the impression he was too pleased about it either.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,318 ✭✭✭✭Raam


    elduggo wrote: »
    I don't know any more than that. I was talking to someone in Sky who confirmed it wasn't them he was going to. But they didn't know where he was going, only that he was more than likely going.

    But sure it'll probably be BMC like everyone else!!

    GODDAMMIT, WHO TOLD YOU?!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,318 ✭✭✭✭Raam


    elduggo wrote: »
    There was plenty of hills in it. Do you not remember him being Sean Kelly's favourite for the tour de France that year?!!

    I remember the general consensus being that the route was tailor made for Fab.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,573 ✭✭✭✭ednwireland


    Unibet were around for a lot longer than one year. And their successor team is still racing today (Vacansoleil)

    i think a lot of the riders went to vacansoleil but wikipedia says
    Vacansoleil-DCM Pro Cycling Team is a Dutch professional road race cycling team. They are a UCI ProTeam and compete in the UCI World Tour. The team was established in 2008, as the successor of P3 Transfer-Batavus,[1] while also taking over many of the riders and staff of Cycle Collstrop, the former team of manager Van der Schueren
    /pedant


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,831 ✭✭✭ROK ON


    One of the issues that I would have thought on the Gilbert vs Cancellara thing early on this year, is that for much of the races that Gilbert targets and one he had the support of 1 or 2 team mates driving an insane pace at the business end of the race. IIRC for many o the classic Jelle VanDenert & sometimes Van Denbroek.
    For PR and RVV Cancellara was isolated very early on. Now he was isolated last year as well - but thats because he doesnt seem to like cycling in a bunch (TT mentality I suppose:rolleyes:).
    However as for the 2011 versions PR and RVV the tactics had to be different if FC was to prosper. He and his coaches were either very arrogant, or his team mates didt have the wherewithall to support him, the way Gilbert was supported in Ardennes week and the way Hushovd was supported at PR (only for his support to grind out the victory).
    Either way it was not great tactics from Leopard Trek.

    I dont think that you can compare Leopard to Sky - I mean yes they had poor first seasons in that they didnt achieve their main goals.
    But Sky is it seems can do tactics - Leopard (Nygard) cant.
    Hog will make a pretty significant difference.

    Next years disaster in waiting has to be BMC. Huge fan of Gilbert, Hushovd and Evans. I really like Van Avermet. I think there is too much potential for stepping on toes in that team. I also dont like how a team of reputedly clean riders at the helm is being managed by guys that have a really really dodgy past.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 546 ✭✭✭elduggo


    ROK ON wrote: »
    Next years disaster in waiting has to be BMC. Huge fan of Gilbert, Hushovd and Evans. I really like Van Avermet. I think there is too much potential for stepping on toes in that team. I also dont like how a team of reputedly clean riders at the helm is being managed by guys that have a really really dodgy past.


    theres a lot of ego massaging will be needed at BMC for sure. I'm tempted to think that surely the new signings will have discussed this at signing time and it wasn't all about the $$$. Look at this year's TdeF. There was absolutely no scope for any rider other than Evans to do anything, but that was fine - their riders weren't the kind to have had ambitions beyond helping their man win. Fast forward to next year with Thor and Gilbert in the team - sorry, but theres not a hope in hell either of those will be told they can't compete for stage victories. If this year is anything to go by they won't even be allowed go in a break.

    Agreed on the dodgyness of their management too. Its the same guys who were over Phonak and they were about the dodgiest team ever. One wonders what the future holds for Allesandro Ballan. I'd imagine he will be surplus to requirements for next year.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 669 ✭✭✭Fr D Maugire


    elduggo wrote: »
    Just curious to know the thoughts of those that follow procycling on the Leopard Trek team and the year they've had.

    Personally I can't stand them and will be glad to see the back of them. The reasons being that, firstly the whole team was quite obviously set up around the bros which made their participation in all events that neither bro was partaking in, a little pointless. We'll never know how they might have fared in the Giro had tragedy not beset them, but possibly it might have gone something along the lines of the Vuelta (a chance in the TT and a sprinter who might win when all the better sprinters have dropped out of the race).

    What I dislike most is that they've subdued most of their riders, be they stars or be they emerging talent. Fuglsang and Gerdemans were both pretty awful this year. We saw none of the heroics of Cancellara or Voight (arguably excepting flashes in P-R and Flanders in the former case), which personally I think is criminal.

    I'd be a fan of a lot of their riders (not the bros) but I think this team has deprived cycling fans of seeing some potential greatness by insisting the team be about the bros and the bros only.

    And don't even get me started on the scarves in the team presentation.

    Heres hoping Bruyneel (like him or loathe him) will be a little more level-headed when it comes to planning tactics for the combined team in 2012. Word has it that Fabian will move on. The US sponsors will need to see Levi and Horner feature in some of the big races, so I reckon next year will promise more.

    Good riddance to Leopard Trek though, I reckon. They contributed little to much of anything (other than the tour) this year.

    Not sure why you are expecting Bruyneel to widen the horizons of the Schlecks or indeed Leopard. If anything he will quite probably make them ever more Tour focused(if thats possible). With Bruyneel its about one thing only "Le Tour". Why do you think he ditched over half his own team so he could get his hands on the Schlecks, he realised he didnt have a realistic Tour winner in his own team so just screwed most of his own team including our own Philip Deignan.

    This is a guy who had four good GC riders, Kloden, Leipheimer, Horner, Brajkovic this year but instead of sending any of them to the Giro, focused completely on the Tour where they flopped completely. Apart from Le Tour and US races, Johan didnt give a crap, classics riders, nope. Other Grand Tours, not really. Despite focusing on the Tour, their best performance was Horner 10th at the 2010 Tour and Paulinho taking a stage.

    I think Levi is leaving regardless, despite being the most successful RadioShack rider this year. Brian Holm has already said he has signed for Quick Step although that has to be confirmed. There is a rumour that Levi told all to the Federal investigation in the US which is why he was booted.


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