Finances of The Catholic Church

Spacedog

Hi

A friend of mine had access to some of the records of the Catholic Churches investment portfolio some time ago. he didn't go into details, but he said it was shocking the investments held by the RCC. the funds being optimised for profit optimisation rather than social, charitable, or even ethical causes. He said some of the investments were directly opposing to basic tenants of the church.

Of course I was not surprised one bit, as some of you know I am none to impressed by the agreement between the Irish Government and the RCC that effectively limits all present and future financial liability of RCC at the expense of the tax payer. So you can imagine my cynicism and lack of surprise when i heard this.

I would understand a multinational organisation behaving in this way, as their goal is to make maximum profit for their investors. but you can see how hearing stuff like this would add to my cynicism.

I have other genuine examples of this but people can lose their jobs for discussing details of this nature and I would not like to endanger them by posting them publicly.

Would you not be disappointed to discover this behaviour or do you believe that the church has the right to maximise their funding by whatever means, sacrificing short term morality for the 'greater good'.

alex73

Who, where, when.. Names? Easily to post allegations, harder to provide proof.

Amateurish

alex73 wrote: »

Who, where, when.. Names? Easily to post allegations, harder to provide proof.

Well in the Godfather they were involved with the mafia. And OP ever heard of wikileaks? Or principles? If you friend had evidence then make it public. Would you say the same about a private company or person without proof?

Spacedog

My friend told me this before wikileaks existed. I did however advise him to copy and keep the evidence as it may be useful in the future. but several other friends who work in the financial business I told this story too were not surprised, and had similar stories from their perspectives.

I'm not making accusations here, just saying what i heard from people whose word i trust. this is a discussion board, not a court of law. I'm not a lawyer and I'm not presenting a case.

I believe it is true and you should respect my faith in my friends word as you would me to respect your faith in God.

JimiTime

Spacedog wrote: »

My friend told me this before wikileaks existed. I did however advise him to copy and keep the evidence as it may be useful in the future. but several other friends who work in the financial business I told this story too were not surprised, and had similar stories from their perspectives.

I'm not making accusations here, just saying what i heard from people whose word i trust. this is a discussion board, not a court of law. I'm not a lawyer and I'm not presenting a case.

I believe it is true and you should respect my faith in my friends word as you would me to respect your faith in God.

While I wouldn't be surprised with the allegations, you surely can't expect people to just accept some faceless guy on the internet saying that a mate told him as gospel? As i said, I wouldn't be surprised, but I'm not going to talk as if its true because you said it is. Surely you'd take the same approach?

Amateurish

Spacedog wrote: »

My friend told me this before wikileaks existed. I did however advise him to copy and keep the evidence as it may be useful in the future. but several other friends who work in the financial business I told this story too were not surprised, and had similar stories from their perspectives.

I'm not making accusations here, just saying what i heard from people whose word i trust. this is a discussion board, not a court of law. I'm not a lawyer and I'm not presenting a case.

I believe it is true and you should respect my faith in my friends word as you would me to respect your faith in God.

I believe a court would call it slander unless its backed up.

ISAW

Spacedog wrote: »

My friend told me this before wikileaks existed. I did however advise him to copy and keep the evidence as it may be useful in the future. but several other friends who work in the financial business I told this story too were not surprised, and had similar stories from their perspectives.

I'm not making accusations here, just saying what i heard from people whose word i trust. this is a discussion board, not a court of law. I'm not a lawyer and I'm not presenting a case.

I believe it is true and you should respect my faith in my friends word as you would me to respect your faith in God.

It is a conspiracy theory!
If you say that space aliens are influencing world economics I also respect that belief but please don't expect anyone to just believe it without any reason to do so or without supporting evidence. All Urban Myths and legends are "a friend of a friend who knows about these things..." rumors.


Also, you don't have to be a lawyer to know " i heard from people whose word i trust" is called hearsay evidence.

Monty.

Spacedog wrote: »

Hi

A friend of mine had access to some of the records of the Catholic Churches investment portfolio some time ago. he didn't go into details, but he said it was shocking the investments held by the RCC. the funds being optimised for profit optimisation rather than social, charitable, or even ethical causes. He said some of the investments were directly opposing to basic tenants of the church.

Of course I was not surprised one bit, as some of you know I am none to impressed by the agreement between the Irish Government and the RCC that effectively limits all present and future financial liability of RCC at the expense of the tax payer. So you can imagine my cynicism and lack of surprise when i heard this.

I would understand a multinational organisation behaving in this way, as their goal is to make maximum profit for their investors. but you can see how hearing stuff like this would add to my cynicism.

I have other genuine examples of this but people can lose their jobs for discussing details of this nature and I would not like to endanger them by posting them publicly.

Would you not be disappointed to discover this behaviour or do you believe that the church has the right to maximise their funding by whatever means, sacrificing short term morality for the 'greater good'.

It's a fact of life money must be held on deposit or invested until it is required for use.
Our local Parish has several hundred thousand on deposit while saving for a €750,000 church structural renovation and restoration. The local Protestant Church /GAA club would be no different.

If your allegations are true, they are hardly original or surprising. Financial scandals in the Church started with Judas. At least 10 Popes out of the 265 since Peter have been financially corrupt. That does not mean the Catholic faith is in any way corrupt.

The Catholic Church consists of 1 billion people, like any institution of that size, you will find a % minority within it, that fail to live up to that institutions docterine and teachings, and abuse their position, whether that be money, power, authority etc. That's human nature and the lures of Satan for you. Greed, Envy, Pride, The love of money is the root of all evil.

Research Cardinal Sodano, current dean of the College of Cardinals.

The problem arises when anti-Catholics with their own ulterior agenda, refuse to distinguish between the majority of law abiding Catholics and the minority of pseudo Catholics in the Church.
No mention of course of the billions Catholic Charities worldwide spend on the poor and in need.

It's a bit like trying to say "Ireland" is corrupt, hence the financial crisis in the Irish state.

Cybercelesta

It could be that the company/bank/whomever, who looked after the church's money/interests, weren't scrupulous as to where it was being invested.

prinz

There have been some shady dealings in the past with various RCC affiliated groups and institutions.These are readily available for further research. There's no need to go trying to tar the entire RCC with a brush based on some cloak and dagger nonsense when authors etc (including some notable Roman Catholic writers) have been delving into it for years decades.

Spacedog

Take for example the case of the Irish State limiting liability for the RCC in cases of child sexual abuse. as it is something that is commonly understand to be true as it is a matter of public record and law.

The fact that the church has since been found to have known about the real number of cases they were liable for, and omitted this information when agreeing a figure meant that they saved hundreds of millions of euro at the Irish Tax Payers expense.

This to me is clearly a case of fraud against the state. No here-say, no speculation, no conspiracy theories.

I accept that the State share responsibility by not acting to prevent these crimes. but is it a 50/50 share of the responsibility? More? less? and shouldn't the financial liability fall on those responsible in the correct proportion. It seems anyone with a shred of moral decency would not grieve me on this point.

dermo64

ISAW wrote: »

Also, you don't have to be a lawyer to know " i heard from people whose word i trust" is called hearsay evidence.

Agreed. You can't take someone's word as gospel.

soterpisc

Spacedog wrote: »

Take for example the case of the Irish State limiting liability for the RCC in cases of child sexual abuse. as it is something that is commonly understand to be true as it is a matter of public record and law.

The fact that the church has since been found to have known about the real number of cases they were liable for, and omitted this information when agreeing a figure meant that they saved hundreds of millions of euro at the Irish Tax Payers expense.

This to me is clearly a case of fraud against the state. No here-say, no speculation, no conspiracy theories.

I accept that the State share responsibility by not acting to prevent these crimes. but is it a 50/50 share of the responsibility? More? less? and shouldn't the financial liability fall on those responsible in the correct proportion. It seems anyone with a shred of moral decency would not grieve me on this point.

The Church is not an unified financial organisation. For example the Jesuits have their own funds from works. They are independent. Same with Sisters of Mercy, Christian Brothers. So if a particular groups is guilty they should pay... Its what has happened in the USA where diocesis have gone backrupt. But there is no central financial system. (Its not the ECB)

Monty.

Spacedog wrote: »

I accept that the State share responsibility by not acting to prevent these crimes. but is it a 50/50 share of the responsibility? More? less? and shouldn't the financial liability fall on those responsible in the correct proportion. It seems anyone with a shred of moral decency would not grieve me on this point.

So this is your real agenda. So tell me, what makes you think you know better than the state ?

Fanny Cradock

There is a thread given over to discussion of sexual abuse. Use it, please.

Onesimus

Spacedog wrote: »

Hi

A friend of mine had access to some of the records of the Catholic Churches investment portfolio some time ago. he didn't go into details, but he said it was shocking the investments held by the RCC. the funds being optimised for profit optimisation rather than social, charitable, or even ethical causes. He said some of the investments were directly opposing to basic tenants of the church.

Of course I was not surprised one bit, as some of you know I am none to impressed by the agreement between the Irish Government and the RCC that effectively limits all present and future financial liability of RCC at the expense of the tax payer. So you can imagine my cynicism and lack of surprise when i heard this.

I would understand a multinational organisation behaving in this way, as their goal is to make maximum profit for their investors. but you can see how hearing stuff like this would add to my cynicism.

I have other genuine examples of this but people can lose their jobs for discussing details of this nature and I would not like to endanger them by posting them publicly.

Would you not be disappointed to discover this behaviour or do you believe that the church has the right to maximise their funding by whatever means, sacrificing short term morality for the 'greater good'.

Been watching too much of the Catholic conspiracy movies like Da vinci code lately have we? hmmm *stroking his beard*

Spacedog

Monty. wrote: »

So this is your real agenda. So tell me, what makes you think you know better than the state ?

My agenda is only to discuss openly the finances of the RCC. You will find the truth in any organised structure, not by what they say, preach, or release in PR statements. but by following the money. There you can see a picture of their true intentions.

Your defensiveness saddens me TBH.

I eager that this thread should stay on topic, and invite others to speak with people who work an any speciality area about their dealings with the church, see what comes up.

Onesimus wrote: »

Been watching too much of the Catholic conspiracy movies like Da vinci code lately have we? hmmm *stroking his beard*

LOL, Dan Brown is boring, read the angels and demons, was a snore fest. not my cup of tea.

I just talk to friends buddy. several regulars in this thread said they wouldn't be surprised, yet others are straining to label me an anti-catholic or a conspiracy wack job. for telling you the kind of thing I hear from several sources from people whose opinions i trust. I have good bull**** detection (cant bull**** a bull****er afterall) nothing more.

take it or leave it i guess.

ISAW

Spacedog wrote: »

My agenda is only to discuss openly the finances of the RCC.

Parishes publish them annually. What church wide conspiracy do you suggest has money hidden?

You will find the truth in any organised structure, not by what they say, preach, or release in PR statements. but by following the money. There you can see a picture of their true intentions.

Parishes publish them annually. What church wide conspiracy do you suggest has money hidden?

Your defensiveness saddens me TBH.

You have unsupported claims and when that is pointed out to you are saddened?

I eager that this thread should stay on topic, and invite others to speak with people who work an any speciality area about their dealings with the church, see what comes up.

Let me guess. More hearsay?

I just talk to friends buddy. several regulars in this thread said they wouldn't be surprised,

LOL! Your friends happen to agree with you. and that means you are right?... how exactly?

yet others are straining to label me an anti-catholic or a conspiracy wack job.

Do you mean me?

for telling you the kind of thing I hear from several sources from people whose opinions i trust.

So what ? just because you believe your friends it is not evidence.

I have good bull**** detection (cant bull**** a bull****er afterall) nothing more.

take it or leave it i guess.

If you cant actually produce evidence it is BS.
Ill leave it!

gent9662

ISAW wrote: »

Parishes publish them annually. What church wide conspiracy do you suggest has money hidden?



Parishes publish them annually. What church wide conspiracy do you suggest has money hidden?




You have unsupported claims and when that is pointed out to you are saddened?


Let me guess. More hearsay?



LOL! Your friends happen to agree with you. and that means you are right?... how exactly?



Do you mean me?


So what ? just because you believe your friends it is not evidence.



If you cant actually produce evidence it is BS.
Ill leave it!

Some Proof:

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2010/0922/Vatican-bank-probe-revives-Catholic-Church-s-past-financial-scandals

Cybercelesta

...under investigation for alleged breaches of money laundering laws.

Monty.

Spacedog wrote: »

My agenda is only to discuss openly the finances of the RCC. You will find the truth in any organised structure, not by what they say, preach, or release in PR statements. but by following the money. There you can see a picture of their true intentions. Your defensiveness saddens me TBH.

As I've already said, corruption has been present in the Church since the time of Judas. Asking someone to provide facts for their yarn is not defensiveness. So have you got any facts about your OP ?

Spacedog wrote: »

I eager that this thread should stay on topic, and invite others to speak with people who work an any speciality area about their dealings with the church, see what comes up.

Now, back to the OP, any facts for us yet ?

Spacedog wrote: »

A friend of mine had access to some of the records of the Catholic Churches investment portfolio some time ago. he didn't go into details, but he said it was shocking the investments held by the RCC.

Was your "friend" delving into the records of one Parish, one Diocese, or the entire Catholic Church ?

What investments were "shocking" ?

ISAW

dclane wrote: »

Some Proof:

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2010/0922/Vatican-bank-probe-revives-Catholic-Church-s-past-financial-scandals

That was a year ago!
Wher is the actual judgement?
And it is $30 million. While that is significant it is hardly a "worldwide conspiracy. And what Vatican official was involved? What actual member of the Clergy?

Look a Director of FÁS is in court tomorrow. That does not mean all Irish people or the state are corrupt does it? Even the Hierarchy i.e. the government or senior people in civil service departments?

gent9662

Some further finance irregularities:


From 06/14/2010 Source: Spiegel Online (German Newspaper)

The Catholic Church in Germany, already struggling to cope with the sex abuse scandal, has been hit by revelations of theft, opaque accounting and extravagance. While the grassroots faithful are being forced to make cutbacks, some bishops enjoy the trappings of the church's considerable hidden wealth.

Shortly before Pentecost, Pastor S. received an unexpected early morning visit, not from the Holy Ghost, but from the police.

For the authorities, the words of the Gospel of Luke came true on that morning: He who seeks finds. More than €131,000 ($158,000) were hidden in various places in the rooms of the Catholic priest, tucked in between his laundry or attached to the bottom of drawers. The reverend was arrested on the spot. After several weeks in custody, Hans S., 76, is now back at the monastery, waiting for his trial.
And lo and behold, the proliferation of cash may have been even more miraculous than initially assumed. The public prosecutor's office in the southern city of Würzburg now estimates that S. embezzled up to €1.5 million from collections and other church funds. The members of his flock in a wine-growing village in the northern Bavarian region of Franconia are stunned. They had blindly trusted their shepherd, who always seemed so humble and modest.

The Catholic Church is currently being shaken by a number of financial scandals, not only in Franconia but also in Augsburg, another Bavarian city, where Bishop Walter Mixa's dip into funds from a foundation that runs children's homes recently made headlines.

More than €40 million have gone missing in the Diocese of Magdeburg in eastern Germany, €5 million have disappeared in Limburg near Frankfurt, and it was recently discovered that a senior priest in the Diocese of Münster had 30 secret bank accounts. And while parishes throughout Germany are cutting jobs and funds for community work, many bishops are still living on the high horse. A brand-new residence? An ostentatious home for their retirement? Restoration of a Marian column to the tune of €120,000? None of these expenditures presents a problem to high-ranking church officials from Trier in the west to Passau in the southeastern corner of Bavaria, whose coffers are brimming with cash.

In many places, this blatant disparity, along with reports of mismanagement, misappropriation and pomposity have prompted the faithful to challenge church officials. They are accusing many bishops of just covering up the problem, as they did in the sex abuse scandal. They are determined not to allow anyone to see behind the curtain into their parallel world of bulging bank accounts and hidden assets, which, in some cases, have buttressed their power for centuries. The only aspect of church finances that is public is the diocesan budget, which derives its funding from the church tax -- but the church's true assets remain in the shadows.

Growing Questions About Church Funding

Now all of this wealth is becoming a political issue, however. The unemployed, recipients of housing assistance, families, communities, businesses, the military -- in the coming years, the federal government plans to deprive them all of billions of euros. But the church, of all things, is being spared, and hardly anyone questions the generous support it receives from the government.

Financially speaking, Germany's dioceses are in excellent shape. "The Catholic Church claims that it's poor, but the truth is that it hides its wealth," says Carsten Frerk, a Berlin political scientist who, after years of research, is publishing "Violettbuch Kirchenfinanzen" (The Violet Book of Church Finances) this fall. Frerk estimates the cash assets of the church's legal entities at about €50 billion. The Catholics, who are not releasing their own figures, accuse Frerk of being a prejudiced, atheistic critic of the church.

The assets, accumulated over the centuries, are invested in many areas, including real estate, church-owned banks, academies, breweries, vineyards, media companies and hospitals. The church also derives income from stock holdings, foundations and bequests. As a rule, all of this money flows into the accounts of the so-called bishop's see. Only a bishop and his closest associates are familiar with this shadow budget, which tax authorities are not required to review. The public budgets of dioceses consist of far less than their total finances.

This complicated web is handled with such secrecy that not even the financial department heads of all dioceses openly discuss their finances with one another. Seemingly baroque structures make these finances even more difficult to fathom. Depending on the diocese, the administrators of the church's funds can be members of a church tax council, a diocesan tax panel, a financial board or an administrative board. Sometimes assets are also spun off into foundations.

Of Germany's 27 Catholic dioceses, 25 refused to provide information in response to a SPIEGEL survey, noting that this information "is not made public." Only two dioceses, Magdeburg and the Archdiocese of Berlin, which was on the verge of bankruptcy a few years ago, were somewhat more accommodating, probably because they have so few assets to hide in the first place.

Secret Assets

The vicar general of a well-heeled diocese, on the other hand, said: "Yes, the assets in the bishop's see are secret. But perhaps it would be better if you wrote: confidential." When asked to explain this secretiveness, a spokeswoman of the Diocese of Limburg responded: "That's just the way it is." Finally, a representative of the German Bishops' Conference said: "I don't want to talk to you about this."

Elected lay representatives at the base are hardly more successful. They face a wall of silence, even when they are responsible for financial supervision in their diocese. One of them is Herbert Steffen, whose congregation appointed him to the diocesan council in Trier. Steffen, 75, is not exactly a fierce critic. A former furniture manufacturer, he comes from an arch-Catholic family of entrepreneurs in the Moselle River region. His concern was as straightforward as it was conservative: He wanted to make sure that his diocese was in solid financial shape.
The businessman was irritated by his experiences in the diocesan council. "I was surprised by the small size of the budget. It was something I thought we ought to look at," he says. At a council meeting, he asked a confidant of the bishop whether this was the entire budget. "There is also the budget of the bishop's see. But it isn't intended for the public," the official replied. When Steffen asked, "are you telling me that we can't see it, either?" the official said: "No!"

Trier, Germany's oldest diocese, is a good example of the Catholic divide between rich and poor. Bishop Stephan Ackermann, who also oversees sex abuse cases for the German Bishops' Conference, can be quite generous in financial matters, particularly when they involve prestigious projects adjacent to his bishop's palace. For example, the diocese currently has €1 million earmarked for a planned renovation of the square behind Trier Cathedral. Local church authorities want to make sure that the area looks its best, just in case the pope decides to lead an annual pilgrimage to the "holy robe" in 2012, joining the faithful in worshipping a robe that supposedly contains scraps from the robe Jesus wore.

Monty.

dclane wrote: »

Some further finance irregularities:

Your post contains nothing but assumptions and speculations, no facts, no evidence, nada.

If you looked up Cardinal Sodano's dealings, you might find something worthwhile to cut and paste instead of wishy washy speculative trash.

Now, separately, no one is denying individual fraudsters cannot exist in an organisation of 1 billion people. As I said, Judas Iscariot was the first one, but he won't be the last.

Now, do you have anything about the OP's claim about the investments his "friend" was delving into ?

JoeB-

Monty. wrote: »

So this is your real agenda. So tell me, what makes you think you know better than the state ?

The Catholic Church deliberately defrauded the irish taxpayer.

They with-held very important information... they did not enter into any agreements in good faith, and so any agreements should be nullified, and the 'false utterers' (who uttered false statements) should face criminal prosecution.


The state wasn't aware of any of this, and the State assumed that the RC Catholic church would also be acting in good faith. The revelation is that the RC church was always covering up, and continue to do so.

Our government has no backbone, and it seems we have no ability to prevent the private RC church from dictating to us as a country.

Any protection given to the sacrement of confession should be removed. My opinion is that the Pope should be charged with criminal offences, and the Papal Nuncio should be in jail currently, for lying to our government, and for being instrumental in the continued cover up of horrendous crimes.

Finally, Catholism and all cults or religions should be banned,.. in the sense they should be held to be false, and teaching them as if true should be a crime, similar to denying the holocaust.

Just my two cents.

Fanny Cradock

That the State was in the dark is, of course, nonsense. It's also off topic.

I'm not sure what the RCC did you you Joe but I can only assume it was something terrible if you are seriously promoting your ideology. However, you must realise that banning the free expression of religious belief and imposing your own materialistic world view stands opposed to the democratic constitution this country is founded upon.

We can talk about what role the RCC and any other faith should have in education - but your desire goes well beyond this and into scary territory.

If you want to see religion taught as fact to be a criminal offence then you should do something about it. Perhaps you should pick up some brownshirts and jackboots and take to the streets.

sellerbarry

alex73 wrote: »

Who, where, when.. Names? Easily to post allegations, harder to provide proof.

Exactly what i think when i'm told about the bible.

Fanny Cradock

But this thread isn't about your incredulity. Now stay on topic, please.

gent9662

I'm sure the RCC pays the state a hefty amount of tax on all those donations it gets from it's parishes.

Manach

Because the state can like make so much more and better use of the money, for instance of the 10K raised last month for the African famine.

Fanny Cradock

I would imagine that at least some of this money is tax deductible if the donation is given to a registered charitable wing of the church. If you've ever been chugged on the street you know that there is a magic figure of €21 a month (just over the magic €250 PA required for tax deductions) to avail of this. Perhaps general parish donations can in some way be included in these deductions

ISAW

dclane wrote: »

I'm sure the RCC pays the state a hefty amount of tax on all those donations it gets from it's parishes.

In fact for a donation on which tax is paid the church can later claim the tax paid on the donations back.

there are quite a few catholic and other religious charities here:
http://www.revenue.ie/en/business/authorised-charities.html
http://www.revenue.ie/en/business/charities.html

Just fill out a CHY2

PDN

ISAW wrote: »

In fact for a donation on which tax is paid the church can later claim the tax paid on the donations back.

there are quite a few catholic and other religious charities here:
http://www.revenue.ie/en/business/authorised-charities.html
http://www.revenue.ie/en/business/charities.html

Just fill out a CHY2

Where donors to a charity are self-employed, the donors can claim tax relief on gifts to charities. Where donors are PAYE employeees, and when the total given in a year exceeds €250, the charity itself can claim the tax relief direct from the Revenue.

Registered charities do not pay tax on donations received (this applies to churches, donkey sanctuaries and to the Humanist Association of Ireland). Nor do they pay stamp duty when purchasing property. They are also usually exempt from rates. However they still have to pay VAT on all purchases, and their employees pay tax and PRSI just like anyone else.

It can be a contentious subject - and I would personally much prefer it if the Revenue dropped the whole subjective definition of what constituites charitable purposes (at present in encompasses education, the relief of poverty and advancement of religion). We would do better to follow the American system of designating non-profit companies.