Joan Burton announces further crackdown on social welfare fraud

JP Liz V1

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/600-inspectors-track-benefit-cheats-520248.html

Social welfare cheats will be tracked down by a group of 600 inspectors in a bid to save the exchequer €625m next year.
Minister for Social Protection Joan Burton revealed a clampdown on fraudsters who abuse the system will involve getting investigators back on the streets to quiz claimants and rogue employers.
Higher penalties for people caught working in the black economy, more inter-agency co-operation and a new photographic card are also among the measures being introduced to catch cheats.
Ms Burton said social welfare fraud is often perceived as a victimless crime but undermines public confidence.
“You need to target the areas that are most at risk and you need to send out a message that fraud is taken absolutely seriously in this country, that it is not tolerated,” said Ms Burton.
"There is no such thing as an acceptable level of fraud.
“Any euro of fraud taken out of this Department is at the cost of somebody like an old age pensioner and that is not acceptable.”
Some 1.4 million people receive a range of social welfare payments each week, including 600,000 families getting child benefit. The country’s social welfare bill is €21bn – 40% of Government expenditure.
Ms Burton said there had been no decision on whether payments would be slashed in the upcoming Budget.
The minister revealed that as unemployment soared in recent years, inspectors were moved in to processing claims. They will now be back on the street visiting claimants at home, she said.
The fraud control plan aims to save €625m in 2011, up €85m on 2010.
It will involve sharing data with key agencies, including gardaí, Revenue, the Taxi Regulator, HSE, the Prison Service and British customs officers.
Elsewhere the new Public Service Card, that will feature a biometric photograph and signature of a claimant, will target fraudsters claiming on multiple identities.
Ms Burton said more than 200 serious fraud cases were referred to the courts last year, while over 100 people have had their benefits cut by up to 44% for not engaging in the system.
The Department’s special investigations unit also saved €3.2m in 2010 by terminating claims of 308 people who lived outside the State.
Elsewhere a cleaning firm was discovered to have a number of employees with false identities, and €1m was saved by quizzing workers on more than 400 construction sites.
Ms Burton said her Department would continue to focus on employers as well as individuals.
“The provisional target for the number of employer inspections in 2012 and 2013 is in the region of 2,500 to 3,500 each year,” she added.


:rolleyes:

syklops

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Why the rolleyes?

She has already saved 350 Million in fraud alone, and estimates a Further 650M can be saved. Thats a billion in fraud alone! This is what they mean when they talk about wasteful spending.

Jarren

how about the Big Fish???

wolfpawnat

By stating that they have targets, it seems to me that they are not going to be genuine and will just attack anyone they can.

Welfare fraud HAS to be tackled, but that will mean actually going after the long term abusers, which they never seem to do! :rolleyes:

syklops

wolfpawnat wrote: »

By stating that they have targets, it seems to me that they are not going to be genuine and will just attack anyone they can.

Welfare fraud HAS to be tackled, but that will mean actually going after the long term abusers, which they never seem to do! :rolleyes:

Thats exactly what they are doing.

wolfpawnat

syklops wrote: »

Thats exactly what they are doing.

I know, but with "targets" as I have stated they will be more set on getting the targets rather than actually catching out the long term abusers and preventing them from re offending

padraig.od

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I know, but with "targets" as I have stated they will be more set on getting the targets rather than actually catching out the long term abusers and preventing them from re offending

Surely every frauster should be targeted, long term or not.

wolfpawnat

padraig.od wrote: »

Surely every frauster should be targeted, long term or not.

Yes, I suppose I am not getting my point across accurately, my apologies. All fraud should be addressed of course, but there are those whom the powers that be tend to overlook constantly. Without trying to sound class-ist (as I am on the SW myself) but those women with 4 children by 4 fathers, with her newest drug dealing partner and who could not raise a smile let alone good citizens of society!

They usually tend to give them a wide birth

beeno67

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I know, but with "targets" as I have stated they will be more set on getting the targets rather than actually catching out the long term abusers and preventing them from re offending

Targets are purely used to get newspaper inches. It makes no difference on the ground. If Joan Burton simply came out and said she wants to reduce fraud it wouldn't be published. If she says she will save X million or she will have X number of investigations then it gets reported (and gets her discussed on boards.ie)

MadamMari

Why not target the Nigerians who are getting social welfare here,and who are claiming for two three and four houses.I see this every day as I work in a social welfare centre. They are the most dishonest race of people in the world. This is not a racist as my best friend is a black english woman.

[MOD]In fact, it is racist - and "I'm not racist my best friend is black" is the classic covering statement.[/MOD]

Shelflife

The fraud patrol aim to save €625m next year,

Now what that says to me is that there is €625m being paid out THIS year that shouldnt have been paid out.

what is also says to me is that someone somewhere isnt doing their job properly is there are payments being authorised that shouldnt be.

so the checks and balances are either not good enough or not being followed through.

But hey it makes no difference to those that are responsible, they will still pick up their wages every week even if they are doing a crap job and if the spongers are caught all they will get is a slap on the wrist and a €5 a week deduction in their dole.

No Responsibility !! No Accountability !!

dlofnep

MadamMari wrote: »

Why not target the Nigerians who are getting social welfare here,and who are claiming for two three and four houses.

If you can show me proof of a Nigerian that claims for four houses - I will buy you four houses.

MadamMari wrote: »

They are the most dishonest race of people in the world. This is not a racist..

Er, yes it is.

Crazy Horse 6

And still not one of the golden circle are in jail. Some country we have.

MadamMari

They change their appearance with wigs and use false IDS. Its been reported to us in the office and the guards have been called.

20Cent

Office of Corporate Enforcement 50 staff.
Inspectors after Johnny doing nixers 600.

Stark indication of priorities there.

Crazy Horse 6

20Cent wrote: »

Office of Corporate Enforcement 50 staff.
Inspectors after Johnny doing nixers 600.

Stark indication of priorities there.

Why am i not surprised

Godge

20Cent wrote: »

Office of Corporate Enforcement 50 staff.
Inspectors after Johnny doing nixers 600.

Stark indication of priorities there.

Apples and oranges argument. Say 100,000 companies, that means one enforcement staff per 1,666 companies.

Say 2 million welfare recipients, that means one fraud inspector per 3,333 social welfare recipients. Social welfare getting off lightly then. (If someone has the correct figures, please enlighten me but it doesn't take away from the point that the bald figures are not comparing like with like).

furthermore, that doesn't include the revenue teams going after the companies nor does it include the health and safety inspectors or the employment law compliance officers, the consumers affaris people, the list goes on of the government officials employed to go after companies.

And none of that takes into account that the companies are creating jobs and taking people off social welfare while the social welfare fraudsters are doing the opposite and costing the country money.

20Cent

Godge wrote: »

Apples and oranges argument. Say 100,000 companies, that means one enforcement staff per 1,666 companies.

Say 2 million welfare recipients, that means one fraud inspector per 3,333 social welfare recipients. Social welfare getting off lightly then. (If someone has the correct figures, please enlighten me but it doesn't take away from the point that the bald figures are not comparing like with like).

furthermore, that doesn't include the revenue teams going after the companies nor does it include the health and safety inspectors or the employment law compliance officers, the consumers affaris people, the list goes on of the government officials employed to go after companies.

And none of that takes into account that the companies are creating jobs and taking people off social welfare while the social welfare fraudsters are doing the opposite and costing the country money.

Cost of Anglo fraud to the taxpayer, 30billion.
Estimated welfare fraud 600 odd million.
Joan Burton should send a few of her inspectors over the the Office of Corporate Enforcement me thinks.

COYW

20Cent wrote: »

Cost of Anglo fraud to the taxpayer, 30billion.
Estimated welfare fraud 600 odd million.
Joan Burton should send a few of her inspectors over the the Office of Corporate Enforcement me thinks.

The social welfare fraud is far easier to prove. Any case of fraud in Anglo will take years to investigate and the case building against anyone therein will be incredibly detailed. Both cases of fraud have to be looked into but the fact is that the social welfare is a much easier hit.

HellFireClub

Of course the 600 social welfare inspectors, all on hugely inflated salaries relative to someone within the EU yet outside of Ireland and working in a comparable role, or relative to someone in the private sector working in a comparable role (although without the obvious job security that the cossetted Social Welfare Inspector working in Ireland enjoys), protected from all reality by a Croke Park Agreement that was hammered together under the threat of massive and sustained strike action, what could you call that, other than GOVERNMENT ENDORSED FRAUD...

RichardAnd

dlofnep wrote: »

If you can show me proof of a Nigerian that claims for four houses - I will buy you four houses.



Er, yes it is.

Even if it's racist, it's his opinion so he should have every right to say it, that's freedom of speech

Vizzy

HellFireClub wrote: »

Of course the 600 social welfare inspectors, all on hugely inflated salaries relative to someone within the EU yet outside of Ireland and working in a comparable role, or relative to someone in the private sector working in a comparable role (although without the obvious job security that the cossetted Social Welfare Inspector working in Ireland enjoys), protected from all reality by a Croke Park Agreement that was hammered together under the threat of massive and sustained strike action, what could you call that, other than GOVERNMENT ENDORSED FRAUD...

And it only took you 2.5 hours to introduce PS bashing into the thread:rolleyes:.

Duke Leonal Felmet

Post 1:

MadamMari wrote: »

Why not target the Nigerians who are getting social welfare here,and who are claiming for two three and four houses.I see this every day as I work in a social welfare centre. They are the most dishonest race of people in the world. This is not a racist as my best friend is a black english woman.

Post 2:

MadamMari wrote: »

They change their appearance with wigs and use false IDS. Its been reported to us in the office and the guards have been called.

A hell of a start.

Chuck Stone

RichardAnd wrote: »

Even if it's racist, it's his opinion so he should have every right to say it, that's freedom of speech

Like shouting 'I have a bomb' on a plane?

That's not so much the right to free speech as it is the prerogative of an idiot.

A Primal Nut

MadamMari wrote: »

Why not target the Nigerians who are getting social welfare here,and who are claiming for two three and four houses.I see this every day as I work in a social welfare centre. They are the most dishonest race of people in the world. This is not a racist as my best friend is a black english woman.

You should report it!

dlofnep

RichardAnd wrote: »

Even if it's racist, it's his opinion so he should have every right to say it, that's freedom of speech

Where did I state that he didn't have a right to say it?

He can say whatever he likes - it doesn't make it true.

dvpower

RichardAnd wrote: »

Even if it's racist, it's his opinion so he should have every right to say it, that's freedom of speech

Whose denying him his right to be a racist?

Welease

COYW wrote: »

The social welfare fraud is far easier to prove. Any case of fraud in Anglo will take years to investigate and the case building against anyone therein will be incredibly detailed. Both cases of fraud have to be looked into but the fact is that the social welfare is a much easier hit.

The US investigated, tried and convicted their banking fraudsters years ago...

Welease

RichardAnd wrote: »

Even if it's racist, it's his opinion so he should have every right to say it, that's freedom of speech

I assume you are being sarcastic.. it's difficult to tell, and given some of the responses below it's worth commenting..

Freedom of speech doesn't cover the right to make racist comments..

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1989/en/act/pub/0019/print.html

Vizzy

Welease wrote: »

I assume you are being sarcastic.. it's difficult to tell, and given some of the responses below it's worth commenting..

Freedom of speech doesn't cover the right to make racist comments..

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1989/en/act/pub/0019/print.html

Pity a few more people don't have regard to this piece of legislation before posting on Boards.

Welease

Vizzy wrote: »

Pity a few more people don't have regard to this piece of legislation before posting on Boards.

Report them

The mods can't be expected to check each and every post (as they are volunteers).. but if it's racist and it's reported.. they will deal with it.

thebman

Welease wrote: »

I assume you are being sarcastic.. it's difficult to tell, and given some of the responses below it's worth commenting..

Freedom of speech doesn't cover the right to make racist comments..

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1989/en/act/pub/0019/print.html

Weird, what is with all those WW2 movies so especially the ones filmed in Ireland :P

Finnbar01

dvpower wrote: »

Whose denying him his right to be a racist?

Why do you assume it's a 'him'? Are you a sexist? :pac:

View

RichardAnd wrote: »

Even if it's racist, it's his opinion so he should have every right to say it, that's freedom of speech

He doesn't - in Europe, we have a right to "freedom of expression" (not just "speech"). That right can be, and is, subject to certain restrictions:

ARTICLE 10
Freedom of expression

....

2. The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties
and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary
in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial
integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for
the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation
or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information
received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality
of the judiciary.

See the Council of Europe's Convention for the protection of Human Rights - Article 10.1 and 10.2.

P.S. In case anyone is confused, the Council of Europe is NOT the EU.

AlekSmart

View wrote: »

He doesn't - in Europe, we have a right to "freedom of expression" (not just "speech"). That right can be, and is, subject to certain restrictions:

See the Council of Europe's Convention for the protection of Human Rights - Article 10.1 and 10.2.

P.S. In case anyone is confused, the Council of Europe is NOT the EU.

MadamMari's view is supported by quite a large body of anecdotal evidence,and by equally intriguing evidence which accompanies other headline cases involving Nigerian's in Ireland.....:)

Since MadamMari did not actually incite any ill feeling or oppression against Nigerians I would not see a Racist element at play here....unless asking a Government Department to investigate potential fraud by a specific group is now considered as such ?

Wolfpawnat: Yes, I suppose I am not getting my point across accurately, my apologies. All fraud should be addressed of course, but there are those whom the powers that be tend to overlook constantly. Without trying to sound class-ist (as I am on the SW myself) but those women with 4 children by 4 fathers, with her newest drug dealing partner and who could not raise a smile let alone good citizens of society!

They usually tend to give them a wide birth (:eek:)

The point about the 4 by 4's referred to above is that whilst the State supports the Mother's and Children it is also,generally, supporting independently,the indigent Fathers.

Wolfpawnat's little Nuclear family scenario very rapidly escalates fiscally into 2 adult rates plus 4 child dependant payments plus the add-on's which,from the evidence visible on our streets,appears mainly to fund serious amounts of substance abuse.

As an aside,when addressing the entire area of DSP abuse etc...has anybody got statistics on Crutch useage policy within the DSP/HSE ?

It would appear that crutches are no-longer recycled due to Health and Safety concerns () which is leading to brand new crutches being dispensed to each individual deemed to require them...It would be interesting to see a costing for crutches within the system.

RichardAnd

View wrote: »

He doesn't - in Europe, we have a right to "freedom of expression" (not just "speech"). That right can be, and is, subject to certain restrictions:

Yes, I'm quite aware of that and I've never agreed with it, nor do I heed it. If someone says something that I find unpalatable then I just don't pay attention, who am I to preach to anyone that they can't say X, Y or Z. Likewise, I am an honest and upstanding adult but I have my own beliefs and one of them is that I don't let anyone else tell me what is or isn't wrong because I know myself.

What holds the world back in so many ways are the edicts from ivory tower. The powers that be can not be trusted and there is a bank vault full of reasons why that is so so I won't get into it. I'll just say this:

You are your own person, let no one else tell you otherwise.

Now I'll leave it at that and let the thread return to its topic

View

AlekSmart wrote: »

Since MadamMari did not actually incite any ill feeling or oppression against Nigerians I would not see a Racist element at play here....

I think you'd find that a court would most certainly find that a claim that Nigerians "... are the most dishonest race of people in the world" clearly constitutes racism.

View

RichardAnd wrote: »

Yes, I'm quite aware of that and I've never agreed with it, nor do I heed it. If someone says something that I find unpalatable then I just don't pay attention, who am I to preach to anyone that they can't say X, Y or Z. Likewise, I am an honest and upstanding adult but I have my own beliefs and one of them is that I don't let anyone else tell me what is or isn't wrong because I know myself.

Your personal opinions don't trump the Charter on Human Rights just because you disagree with it.

RichardAnd

View wrote: »

Your personal opinions don't trump the Charter on Human Rights just because you disagree with it.

I always love how some people have the efficacy to build a castle from a stone and a scrap of mortar, to quote a rather obscure novel from my youth. I never said I didn't agree with human rights, I merely pointed out a section of it that I hold issue with.

I don't deal in absolutes and I don't need a charter to tell me how to behave towards my fellow man.

Scofflaw

Let's be clear - yes, the remarks are racist. No, there is no right to make racist remarks. One has the right to be racist, but no right to put one's racism into effect either practically or verbally, much as one has the right to think like a criminal, but not to put it into effect practically or verbally - because it is generally accepted that putting these things into effect, whether practically or verbally, hurts other people.

And yes, it's all off topic.

moderately,
Scofflaw

youtube!

why cant these threads ever stay on topic? always descend into something completely unrelated.

syklops

youtube! wrote: »

why cant these threads ever stay on topic? always descend into something completely unrelated.

Thats the main thing I miss from the Celtic Tiger. Not the jobs or flat screen tellys, or foreign wimmins. Its threads not descending into PS bashing and Anglo/Sean Fitzpatrick/FF being dragged in to every single topic.

Sleepy

Yeah, back in those halicon days we just argued about Republicanism and Abortion and dragged those topics into everything!

AlekSmart

View wrote: »

I think you'd find that a court would most certainly find that a claim that Nigerians "... are the most dishonest race of people in the world" clearly constitutes racism.

What I find interesting is the reminiscences of my friend who was one of the first "Permanent Part Time" employees of one of our "Premier" Irish banks nearly 20 myears ago....

Odd that even back then it was Nigerian customers which the Branch and Regional managers mentioned in the,then newly instituted,Motivation Encounters with the counter-staff.....Wonder what a Court would make of that,if the paper trail still remained,or even existed..

Indeed one wonders what a Court might make of some of the statements of it's own learned officers...

http://www.metroeireann.com/article/it-is-hard-work-its-all,652

to wit.....

Also, when we set up first we did get a lot of media attention, as we are the first ethnic legal company in Ireland. I used that attention to get the message out that we were open for business. I appeared on some TV and radio programmes.

Expanded upon somewhat here....

http://obiakpere.blogspot.com/2006/12/this-nigerian-uses-law-to-help.html

I veered towards Republic of Ireland. I discovered we didn’t have solicitors for people of colour in the Republic of Ireland. It is quite challenging and also quite rewarding. It has not been easy. It has been a country where other nationalities come to study and return to their countries.

So there ye have it folks,up until the arrival of this robust personage,the entire Irish Legal system was...dare I say it....Racist !!!....don't just take my word,just ask a Solicitor

5live

What, another crackdown? Shouldnt it be constant rather than sporadic or are they just looking for a pat on the back for doing their job again

touts

5live wrote: »

What, another crackdown? Shouldnt it be constant rather than sporadic or are they just looking for a pat on the back for doing their job again

Not so much another crackdown but another announcement to give Joan a slot on the Last Word. She seems to be on every 2-3 weeks to talk about welfare fraud and what she plans to do about it. Its just Joan trying to secure her seat next time when the poll figures are starting to move against Labour and she knows even worse is to come.

It feels like every couple of weeks her political advisor says "Joan, you haven't been on the radio in a while" so she wanders out of her office asks the first person she sees what they would do about welfare fraud and then goes back into her office and writes a press release. I'm sure some people in the social welfare department are cracking down on fraud but I'm not certain it is effective or coordinated and I'm absolutely certain it has little or nothing to do with anything Joan says or does.

Sorry to move away from the "Racist he's a Racist"! "No he's not!" screaming match. Feel free to return to it if you wish now.

headmaster

Can someone show what the phone no is for reporting social welfare fraud. It's our duty to report these scroungers, they are taking money from other people in need.

wolfpawnat

headmaster wrote: »

Can someone show what the phone no is for reporting social welfare fraud. It's our duty to report these scroungers, they are taking money from other people in need.

https://www.welfare.ie/EN/Secure/Pages/ReportSuspectFraud.aspx

Can't find a number though.

headmaster

Ok, here it is.
Social welfare Fraud. 01-7043000
Revenue Fraud 01-6474000

The 1st No for Single mothers living with partner, etc, etc.
The 2nd No for dolers who are working, people doing nixers for cash + no vat, plumbers, painters, carpenters, electricians, blocklayers etc, etc. If these people are reported and caught, our tax bills might come down. Call these numbers and report anyone taking money illegally from the system, you won't have any problems and will weed out the scroungers.

usamaoreilly

And the numbers for banker fraud.....Ministerial fraud...etc etc please!

jonsnow

headmaster wrote: »

Ok, here it is.
Social welfare Fraud. 01-7043000
Revenue Fraud 01-6474000

For Anto the carpenter dial 01-7043000
For Larry Goodman,Bertie Ahern etc dial 01-6474000.

You might see some action from the first number but expect a lot of mood music on the second.