Parents could be barred from knowing the sex of their unborn baby by European ruling

Morag

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/parenting/parents-could-be-barred-from-knowing-the-sex-of-their-unborn-baby-by-european-ruling-2873644.html

Parents could be barred from knowing the sex of their unborn baby by European ruling


By Laura Donnelly

Monday September 12 2011

Irish Hospitals could be barred from telling expectant mothers the sex of their unborn baby, following a ruling in Europe.

Medical staff should be instructed to "withhold information about the sex of the foetus" according to a draft resolution passed by a Council of Europe committee.

The plan is an attempt to prevent parents "selectively aborting" foetuses – usually female – as means of 'choosing' the sex of their child.

The practice has reached worrying proportions in some former Soviet states that are members of the Council.

However, the recommendation covers all 47 member states, meaning all NHS midwives and doctors could be blocked from telling expectant parents whether they will have a boy or a girl.

Parenting groups last night expressed anger about the proposed change, while doctors said the proposals were unworkable.

Justine Roberts, founder of parenting site Mumsnet said expectant couples would feel "pretty angry and disappointed" if a blanket ban on gender identification is introduced.

Mrs Roberts said expectant parents asked to know the sex of their child on practical grounds, such as working out whether siblings could share a room, or simply because they wanted an idea of what lay ahead.

She said: "I can understand that there may be problems in some parts of the world with sex selection, but it seems ridiculous to apply the thinking to countries where this has not been shown to be a problem.

"I think pregnant women would feel pretty angry and disappointed to be told they can't be told the gender of their unborn child."

The Council of Europe, based in Strasbourg, cannot impose binding orders on governments but is highly influential in policy-making and has often seen its decisions enacted through conventions and treaties.

The draft resolution by the council's equal opportunities committee will now go before the council's full Parliamentary Assembly for approval next month.

In the UK, most maternity units are happy to tell expectant parents the gender of their unborn child, if they want to know.

Sometimes parents are told during the 12 week scan – if it is clear that the baby is a boy – and otherwise at the 20 week stage, when a more detailed scan is undertaken.

But a few NHS trusts have policies which deny parents the option, either because of concerns about prenatal sex selection, or on cost grounds.

Colchester Hospital Foundation trust reversed its policy one month ago after a pregnant woman campaigned for the right to know the sex of the baby she was carrying.

Natalie Mann, 30, a university lecturer from Clacton, Essex, was furious when the hospital would not tell her the gender of her unborn child, at 20 weeks, so she could tell children Maisie, four, and Eliza, two if they would have a baby brother or sister.

From this month, the trust has increased funding for the service, allowing 30 minutes rather than 20 for the scan, which it said gave staff time to find out the unborn baby's gender.

Midwives in several hospitals in Hertfordshire and parts of London have told mothers-to-be that they are not allowed to disclose the sex of the foetus.

Some said their policies were drawn up because of concerns that boys, especially firstborn sons, were more dt foetuesired than girls in some Muslim communities.

Others said they had been told not to disclose the information in case they got it wrong and were sued.

The draft resolution by the Council of Europe, passed on Friday, states that prenatal sex selection has reached "worrying proportions" in several member states, in particular Armenia , Azerbaijan and Albania, where the ratio is 112 boys for 100 girls, and in Georgia, where the ratio is 111 boys for 100 girls.

It calls for an investigation into the causes of the skewed birth ratios in these countries, and says prenatal sex selection should only be allowed in order to avoid serious hereditary disease linked to one sex.

But their recommendation that all public hospitals in all 47 states should not tell parents the gender of their unborn child last night caused alarm.

Dr Gillian Lockwood, medical director of Midland Fertility Services, said it would be difficult for hospitals to follow the advice, given that in some cases, parents would be able to work out the gender for themselves, while looking at the scans.

She said that while she had seen a few couples who were prone to "Victoria Beckham syndrome" – being desperate for a girl, after several boys, or vice versa – most only wanted to know their unborn baby's gender so they could paint the nursery, buy suitable clothes, or tell other children whether they would have a brother or sister.

Dr Lockwood, former vice-chairman of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists' ethics committee, also said it was hard to see how the European recommendations would prevent selective abortions in this country, given that so many received the news about the baby's gender at 20 weeks, when it would be impossible to secure a termination without medical grounds.

She said couples who were prepared to selectively aborses on the grounds of gender were more likely to resort to blood tests, which are not yet legal in this country, but sold on the internet, which disclose the gender at seven weeks, when abortions could be secured.

The committee is composed of 77 MPs and politicians from member states, with British members including Labour MPs Ann Coffey (Stockport) and Yasmin Querishi (Bolton South East) Conservative MP Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) and Lib Dem peer Baroness Emma Nicholson.

The recommendation, which will be discussed by the full assembly of 318 MPs from 3 to 7 October, calls on them to "consider recommending public hospitals to instruct doctors to withhold information about the sex of the foetus, or at least ensure that this information is given in a positive way, irrespective of the sex of the foetus."

A spokesman for the Department of Health said it would not comment on the resolution until it was passed but said the main purpose of scans was to check for abnormalities, and to date the foetus, not to identify the sex of the foetus.

He said decisions on whether or not to disclose the possible gender of the child should be "based on the clinical judgment of the certainty of the test and the individual circumstances of each case."

- Laura Donnelly

That's crazy, esp here.

wolfpawnat

I chose not to find out because I didn't want to know, but I liked the idea of having the option!!!!!!! If I get pregnant again I would consider finding out because I would want to know should I unpack the blues again or should I get a few yellows and pinks as I got rid of all my whites and creams!

This is madness. People get abortions everyday, this particular reason would no doubt contribute to a few, but I doubt it is more than a few a year!

Welcome to the nanny (European) state!!! It is sickening that a few extremists can ruining a happy time for many people.

seamus

It's a bizarre idea, but it doesn't look like they have the power to prevent medical staff from giving this information, rather they're trying to recommend to medical staff to avoid revealing the information.

Of course, since this information is private personal medical information about the individual in question, a medical practitioner cannot withhold it, and it would be next to impossible to pass a law making it illegal without stepping on a whole pile of other personal rights and freedoms.

Although some institutions could decide to not offer the "service", it is something that the mother would be entitled to know or find out, even if they had to pay to do so.

It seems like a wholly ridiculous idea though. I wonder how many of those involved have actually had children and understand the massive benefits to knowing the child's sex?

Surely it would make a whole lot more sense (and be a lot easier) to pass something which banned abortions on the basis of sexual selection alone?

ash23

Maybe they could hold off telling the parents until after 24 weeks (or whatever the cut off is for abortion in that country).

nesbitt

On my second pregnancy 7 years ago in Dublin I noticed that staff would not discuss the sex of the baby during scans. One couple were very put out about this and whilst observing them while in the waiting area I did feel that it was a sinister need for this information. In my veiw their culture would favour the birth of boys over girls.

I was expecting twins and asked what they were and was told without any reluctance. It seemed to me then that release of information was a grey area.

So perhaps legislation is being passed to make life easier on staff who have to deal with people of all cultures and nationalities.

I do not have an issue with this as I would just want the info to help me welcome either a boy or a girl into my life and home. Simple everyday details about decor and clothes and bedrooms.

Other people would want the information to choose whether or not to give life and that is a cold hard fact like it or not.

January

ash23 wrote: »

Maybe they could hold off telling the parents until after 24 weeks (or whatever the cut off is for abortion in that country).

Would mean scheduling an extra scan? Or people having to pay privately if they want to know the sex of the baby.

phasers

My Mam was telling me recently that her friend went for a scan at the Coombe and the doctor wouldn't tell her the sex of her baby because she was Nigerian, and Nigerian women have a history of aborting baby boys

I don't know for sure if that's the actual reason but the Doctor genuinely wouldn't tell her what she was having and other women have told her the same. She was so upset leaving the hospital because she wanted to go and buy little clothes and toys.

ash23

January wrote: »

Would mean scheduling an extra scan? Or people having to pay privately if they want to know the sex of the baby.

In my opinion 2 scans should be done (thats what happened when I had my baby 8 years ago). There was one at 12 weeks to determine due date, that there was only one baby, no abnormalities etc and another at 20 weeks.
When my sister was having her baby there was only one scan and it was at 20 weeks. I think 20 weeks is too late for the first scan and from my pregnant friend, they've changed it again now so there is one scan at 12 weeks and that is it. She is paying for a private scan at 20+ weeks to find out the babies sex.

I know it varies from hospital to hospital as to when the scans are given. If it were consistent and every woman had a 12 week scan and another at lets say 24 weeks. Then if they want they can determine the sex of the baby at the second scan, that would be fair I think.

headmaster

I think it's proper that people shouldn't know. There are too many women killing their children, they might call it abortion, but it's murder. For all who do this, sleep well. Someday they will have to a/c for these murders.

January

headmaster wrote: »

I think it's proper that people shouldn't know. There are too many women killing their children, they might call it abortion, but it's murder. For all who do this, sleep well. Someday they will have to a/c for these murders.

*Mod Note*
Different topic entirely, please don't bring the "abortion is murder" debate into this thread. If you want to do that please seek out the Humanities forum.

Davidth88

For both our children ( girls ) , we decided we didn't want to know . It was surprising how many of the midwives etc said how refreshing that was .

Where I grew up ( NW London ) , hospitals don't tell you at all , there is a large asian community there and rumours went around about girls being aborted , I have no idea if this really happened or not.


I think its down to the parents and if they want to know or not

Cat Melodeon

I can understand the idea of a ban, or at least of limiting sex scans until after 24 weeks, the cut-off point in most European countries as far as I know. Still, if people want to get rid of a pregnancy, they will find a way, regardless of arbitrary cut-off points for scans or terminations. It would be a shame to deny all parents access to scans just because of what must be a tiny minority of parents determined enough to abort a healthy feotus in favour of trying again for the 'right' sex of baby.

angelfire9

When I was pregnant with Aisling I had a scan in Ennis and the sonographer refused to even check whether it was a boy or a girl as to do so was "against hospital policy"
There is a thread here somewhere about this as I was gutted and V. Disappointed with her attitude

I'm catholic & caucasian so I wouldn't fall into the stereotype for "selective" abortions
Either way I wouldn't have even considered that option
I wanted to know so that I could prepare our eldest & possibly do a bit of redecorating (which as it turned out I was too knackered to do anyway)

Its a hard one
As a mother I can understand the need that some women have to know the sex before the birth
(I must also say I was convinced it was a boy I was having and I wanted it confirmed at the scan oh how wrong I was )

But from a medical point of view I am sure that a certain amount of back alley "Selective" abortions do take place & i suppose they are trying to prevent that

Rock< ..:(.. > Hard Place

Mothman

Knowing the sex is not something we were bothered with.

What is the % accuracy of sex identification at week 20 scan?

First of all I note it is a draft...but it is another possibility of choice being removed from society. While this one wouldn't affect me, I strongly object in having choices removed/banned.

Knowing the sex of your baby is not a right. Food, water, shelter are rights, and not everyone has them fulfilled.

Wanting to be able to tell little Maisie and Eliza whether the new baby in mummy's tummy is a brother or sister? If that's a right that deserves campaigning for then the world must be going mad. Get over it and tell them to wait.

However, while I don't see why it should be treated as a right, I also don't see the huge hassle in just doing it. Selective abortion is happening out there but there's not much that can be done about it, and if someone wants a son that badly then they're going to find other ways to do it. I also doubt that selective abortion is actually occurring after a 20 week scan, I'd say the parents in question have the situation planned far earlier than that. If anything this is a policing issue, not a medical policy one.

sdanseo

47 member states in the EC yeah?

More pure sloppy journalism from the indo, that's a fundamental failure at proof reading level. Not to mention the fact that it's a copy and paste job in the first place. NHS here? Bah.

CIARAN_BOYLE

sdeire wrote: »

47 member states in the EC yeah?

More pure sloppy journalism from the indo, that's a fundamental failure at proof reading level. Not to mention the fact that it's a copy and paste job in the first place. NHS here? Bah.

Council of Europe not council of the European Union

Council of Europe is the fluffy out there group that has no power and no real influence. Its just there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe

Das Kitty

true-or-false wrote: »

Knowing the sex of your baby is not a right. Food, water, shelter are rights, and not everyone has them fulfilled.

Wanting to be able to tell little Maisie and Eliza whether the new baby in mummy's tummy is a brother or sister?

That's not the only reason people want to know.

I wanted to know because I felt like my pregnancy was happening to someone else, I had no bond with the baby. I wanted to be able to picture him and I couldn't when I didn't know his gender. Finding out I would be having a son was immensely helpful in helping me bond. I also had a fear of the baby being a boy, all my direct male family members have addiction and mental illness problems. Knowing that James would be a boy before he was born allowed me to get over the fear in advance.

So it's not all fluffy reasons that people want to find out a knowable fact in advance of the birth.

abouttobebanned

Let's just not tell those mad foreigners.

Sleepy

Do most people have to be told?

Even to my untrained medical eye, it was blatantly obvious from the 20 week scan that Rory was a little girl... surely it's even more obvious if the baby is a boy?

Das Kitty

Sleepy wrote: »

Do most people have to be told?

Even to my untrained medical eye, it was blatantly obvious from the 20 week scan that Rory was a little girl... surely it's even more obvious if the baby is a boy?

Yeah pretty obvious to us too :eek:

ash23

Sleepy wrote: »

Do most people have to be told?

Even to my untrained medical eye, it was blatantly obvious from the 20 week scan that Rory was a little girl... surely it's even more obvious if the baby is a boy?

When I was having my later scans the sonographer asked if I wanted to know the sex. I said no and they advised me to look away while they checked that area. I did this at all my scans so her sex was a total surprise to me.

Hannibal Smith

true-or-false wrote: »

Knowing the sex of your baby is not a right. Food, water, shelter are rights, and not everyone has them fulfilled.

Wanting to be able to tell little Maisie and Eliza whether the new baby in mummy's tummy is a brother or sister? If that's a right that deserves campaigning for then the world must be going mad. Get over it and tell them to wait.

However, while I don't see why it should be treated as a right, I also don't see the huge hassle in just doing it. Selective abortion is happening out there but there's not much that can be done about it, and if someone wants a son that badly then they're going to find other ways to do it. I also doubt that selective abortion is actually occurring after a 20 week scan, I'd say the parents in question have the situation planned far earlier than that. If anything this is a policing issue, not a medical policy one.

Of course it's a right, if you want to know. It's your body, your baby, you've a right to at least ask what it is. Whether they can tell you or not is another thing (based on baby's position and clarity only, not on legalities).

How can you tell a woman that she has no right to know what's going on inside her own body

seamus

true-or-false wrote: »

Knowing the sex of your baby is not a right.

If a woman underwent a biopsy for a growth on her breast, does she have a right to know whether that growth is malignant or benign?

Or less important, if she has an eye exam does she have a right to know that one eye has astigmatism and the other doesn't, or is it OK for the doctor to deliberately withhold this information and just give her a pair of glasses that work?

"Rights" fall into a whole pile of categories. Being told what's happening inside your body is one of them.

angelfire9

angelfire9 wrote: »

.........I wanted to know so that I could prepare our eldest ....

I imagine that this ^^^ is the comment referred to in this >>>

true-or-false wrote: »

Knowing the sex of your baby is not a right. Food, water, shelter are rights, and not everyone has them fulfilled.

Wanting to be able to tell little Maisie and Eliza whether the new baby in mummy's tummy is a brother or sister? If that's a right that deserves campaigning for then the world must be going mad. Get over it and tell them to wait.

However, while I don't see why it should be treated as a right, I also don't see the huge hassle in just doing it. Selective abortion is happening out there but there's not much that can be done about it, and if someone wants a son that badly then they're going to find other ways to do it. I also doubt that selective abortion is actually occurring after a 20 week scan, I'd say the parents in question have the situation planned far earlier than that. If anything this is a policing issue, not a medical policy one.

I would like to clarify that I didn't want to tell our eldest whether the baby was a boy or girl just for the sake of it
With a 9 year age gap our eldest was extremely upset throughout my pregnancy (and we only told her around week 28)
She was convinced we wanted to replace her
She & I are very close & she thought the baby would ruin our relationship
At 9 years of age she is totally anti "boys" and was emphatic that she didn't want a brother though a sister would be "ok"
We needed to know the sex of our 2nd child so that we would have time to lay the ground work if it was a boy
As it happened when Aisling arrived her big sister doted on her from day one (and still does) but it could have been very different

I think its a tad judgemental of someone to tell me to tell her to "get over it and wait"

Ayla

angelfire9 wrote: »

I think its a tad judgemental of someone to tell me to tell her to "get over it and wait"

What I took from true-or-false's post was that knowing the sex of a baby before its birth is small potatoes compared to all the real issues in the world. For some families knowing beforehand is nice for a variety of reasons. But it is a luxury not a basic human right. For those attempting to compare this knowledge to abnormalities within the body it's a completely different argument...one is a child whereas the other is a condition that needs treatment.

wolfpawnat

^^^ But if they stop telling people the gender for fear of them getting it aborted, how long before they stop telling parents about anomalies and abnormalities such as Down Syndrome and the like for fear that they too will lead to abortion. Leaving some parents with one hell of a shock at birth that they will not have mentally prepared for!

I know it seems drastic, but one thing does lead to another and there are many pro-life groups already debating this matter

Ayla

True, but I think there's a very pronounced and profound difference b/w learning about physical/mental abnormalities and the child's sex. One will have a forever impact on family life, while the other may take some getting used to

unless, of course, you're living in cultures where a child's sex has a massive impact on the future of family life

Moonbeam

I don't think it is a basic human right but I think it is nice to be able to find out.
I did not find out on either of mine but that was my choice and I like that the choice is there!

pickarooney

It's a bizarrely egalitarian proposal, whether or not that's the intention. Are we not far too eager to treat our children differently based on their sex even before they're born? I'm not going to pretend I didn't want to know or that I didn't find out beforehand but I recognise that deep down there was an element of gender discrimination in the way I processed the news each time. It shouldn't have made any difference to me to know what sex my child was going to be, but it did.

nicowa

Mothman wrote: »

Knowing the sex is not something we were bothered with. In fact we didn't have scans so wasn't an option anyway.

What is the % accuracy of sex identification at week 20 scan?

First of all I note it is a draft...but it is another possibility of choice being removed from society. While this one wouldn't affect me, I strongly object in having choices removed/banned.

Mind if I ask - I know it's off topic slightly - but why did ye not have scans?

Cottontail

I would have been very disappointed if I couldn't have found out the sex of my babies. I feel that knowing what i'm having gives me a lovely bond with the baby, and I can refer to them by their names instead of just talking about 'the baby'. I'm even teaching my 20 month old how to say his unborn brother's name, which I couldn't have done if I didn't know the sex.

donalg1

If its to stop selective abortions from happening couldnt they just wait until the time for an abortion has passed, or is their a limit on this anymore?

angelfire9

angelfire9 wrote: »

I imagine that this ^^^ is the comment referred to in this >>>

I think its a tad judgemental of someone to tell me to tell her to "get over it and wait"

Actually no, I was referring to the OP which said that a woman was furious when the hospital told her they couldn't tell her the sex of her child because Maisie and Eliza, her two children, were interested as whether to call the baby a brother or a sister. Certainly a far more trivial situation than yours, and I'm sorry if you were offended at thinking I was talking to you. In fact the reason I quoted the names was in an effort not to make any posters think I was talking about them.

I will take the judgemental label though, it's true. I haven't had children and my opinion on the issue is pure judgement, not experience.

Ayla wrote: »

What I took from true-or-false's post was that knowing the sex of a baby before its birth is small potatoes compared to all the real issues in the world. For some families knowing beforehand is nice for a variety of reasons. But it is a luxury not a basic human right.

Yes, that's all I meant. That being able to find out is something to be thankful for rather than to demand.

planetX

Doesn't really solve the problem though does it. If someone is prepared to abort a baby for it's sex, what happens when the child is born and unwanted?
As someone above said it's often pretty obvious from the scan. Are they going to block the parents view?

Tayla

On my first pregnancy I knew my baby was a boy and I didn't ask the sex, I just knew 100% he was going to be a boy!

At my daughters scan I asked the sonographer and she said they thought it was a girl but they weren't sure, In that situation they couldn't tell me for definite anyway but I was a bit upset not knowing for certain whether the baby for a boy or girl.

It's a personal decision, so what if you don't want to find out....you don't have to but some people do want to know and they should be allowed.

Maybe like others said people from cultures who abort based on gender should be banned from finding out, if Irish people don't have a culture where they abort based on gender then it shouldn't apply to us.

Like another poster said there can be personal reasons why parents want to find out and I think many doctors/ public health nurses/ anyone who works with women and newborns would agree it would be beneficial and I would almost say essential for some mothers to find out the sex before they have the baby if the option is there.

I don't agree with abortion at all but what about what planetx said...it doesn't solve the problem, what happens these babies if they are born the wrong sex and unwanted? I'd like to think they still love and look after them but do they?

vitani

I found out because I was on a limited budget, and wanted to be able to buy all the clothes and baby equipment as I found bargains, rather than waiting until after she was born. I could have bought everything in neutral beforehand but why should I have had to?

I was working for a large department store when pregnant and there were regular sales of baby clothes - knowing the gender beforehand helped me save hundreds of euro.

Orion

The whole thing is just crap and typical Independant scaremongering. It will never happen.

An equivalent would be banning the sale of steak knives because some people have stabbed people with them ... therefore all knives should be banned.

The Council of Europe has no lawmaking powers whatsoever. It is not part of the EU either. And this is merely a draft resolution in one committee in that body.

In other words, this article is bull and should be ignored ... like pretty much anything printed about Europe in that paper.

Ayla

Tayla wrote: »

Maybe like others said people from cultures who abort based on gender should be banned from finding out, if Irish people don't have a culture where they abort based on gender then it shouldn't apply to us.

This is the most absurdly stereotypical and ignorantly racist thing possibly said on this entire thread. Exactly *how* would this be carried out..."oh, wait you're from x country so you're not allowed to know b/c we're assuming you're going to abort based on sex"??? That would be the courts in approximately 20 seconds b/c of stereotyping and discriminatory practices.

Not everyone from x country would abort based on sex...maybe most of them have whatever justification for wanting to know that anyone else does (buying pink/blue, "bonding", etc). So, what, they're not to be allowed to know just b/c of where they come from?? Truly pathetic thought, that. :mad:

Tayla

Ayla wrote: »

This is the most absurdly stereotypical and ignorantly racist thing possibly said on this entire thread. Exactly *how* would this be carried out..."oh, wait you're from x country so you're not allowed to know b/c we're assuming you're going to abort based on sex"??? That would be the courts in approximately 20 seconds b/c of stereotyping and discriminatory practices.

Not everyone from x country would abort based on sex...maybe most of them have whatever justification for wanting to know that anyone else does (buying pink/blue, "bonding", etc). So, what, they're not to be allowed to know just b/c of where they come from?? Truly pathetic thought, that. :mad:

It would of course be hard to carry it out but it already goes on as is evident from this thread and from others, some doctors choose not to tell certain people if they are from certain countries but they will tell Irish people the sex. It already goes on.....

As I said I don't agree with abortion whatsoever but I also don't think it's good for a child to be brought by parents who do not want them.

I should have clarified that what I meant is that if they are bringing in a rule preventing people from finding out then it shouldn't apply to us, I don't think that that is racist, let's be honest here if the law gets brought in it's being brought in because of some countries and not other countries.

It will apply to all EU states because that's the way the law works, not because we need it here, sorry but that's not fair.

Ayla

Great, so I'm from the States...can I then assume that the docs didn't tell me the sex of my babies b/c they feared I would sue them if they were wrong? Because - as everyone well "knows" Yanks are all trigger happy with the lawsuits. :rolleyes:

Nope, sorry, sugarcoat it all you want but it is stereotyping and racist. The docs who won't tell people of certain countries are being discriminatory & I would hope they'd get smacked for it. You can't pick & choose who you do & don't give that info to - it's an all or nothing scenario.

Tayla

Ayla wrote: »

Nope, sorry, sugarcoat it all you want but it is stereotyping and racist. The docs who won't tell people of certain countries are being discriminatory & I would hope they'd get smacked for it. You can't pick & choose who you do & don't give that info to - it's an all or nothing scenario.

Yes it's stereotyping but it's the EU that want to bring in a law that will affect the whole of Europe even though it's only part of Europe that seem to be abusing the gender scans. I'm not the one proposing the change.

Call it racist if you want but if something is true then can it really be racist? For example everyone in the world knows about the abandoned baby girls in China, if China were in the EU and the Chinese were the ones who were aborting these babies based on their gender then is it racist to say that in China there is a certain amount of gender based abortions whereas in Ireland there isn't?

Yes I know there are many people in cultures where abortion based on gender happens who themselves would never do that and I don't think it's fair that they wouldn't be able to get a gender scan if such a rule were to be brought in but in Ireland we don't have a pattern of this so why should it affect us.



Remember, I'm not supporting, promoting or hoping for this rule to be brought in, i'm just saying that if it is then we should not be included.

Orion

Calm down folks. Let's not let this get out of hand.

Tayla wrote: »

It will apply to all EU states because that's the way the law works, not because we need it here, sorry but that's not fair.

Like I already said it won't apply anywhere because the Council of Europe has no statutory powers whatsoever. It's never going to happen.