Newbie to Production

Omega28

Evenin all

So a brief history on myself, I've been dj'ing for a yr now, really do love it, I play house music mostly and so I wanna give production a try. I'm also a Multimedia student so u can see what type of bloke I am:)

Now, I've done some research and I see there's plenty of music production software out there, I'm half thinking ableton or reason. Which do you guys think would be best for a beginner? I understand that reason is more of an all in one package compared to ableton, I'm not so sure what this means but I read it on a site?! Also, what are the main differences between the two?

Next, I noticed there's different controllers like NI's Maschine etc and I was wondering could u recommend one for a newbie? budget of around 150euro.

Next question, I was wondering where you guys get your samples etc?

Also, how did you guys learn production? Any useful sites? etc

My set up for DJ'ing is 2 CDJ 1000s, DJM 800, Audio 8 interface so luckily I have a sound card and I also have Macbook Pro, with the laptop and soundcard I have a starting point.

thanks guy

D.

Hayte

It doesn't really matter what you use as long as you stick with it. If you are chasing a career in the industry then at some point you are going to have to learn how to use pro tools and logic because they are everywhere. You can think of it like a starter DJ buying cheapo Stantons. They do the job but if you ever play out in clubs, at some point you are going to have to (re)learn how to mix on 1210s because they are everywhere. Its been so long since I spun records that I don't know if that has changed or not. I'm guessing everything has gone digital now but it was true 7 or 8 years ago.

Reason deserves special distinction because it is a closed platform. You can't add functionality to it in the form of standard VST and DX plugins and this is both a blessing and a curse. I have always found that I am most creative, most productive and most focused when I am forced to work within limits. Its easy to set yourself very specific goals to achieve and problems to solve. Resist the urge to collect hundreds of freeware/demo plugins just because you can. You will quickly drown in learning curves and lose direction, interest and motivation. Other than that the main DAWs give you basically the same tool but the approach is different. Its a workflow thing thats mostly irrelevant unless you use multiple DAWs (not recommended for a beginner). You won't miss functionality you don't know exists so the key goal when starting out is to be dogged and to overcome limitations by thinking laterally.

Best way to start? If at all possible its to hook up with an industry insider and observe how they do things. Most people won't be privileged enough to be in that position so some take a production course. It can be expensive and it won't teach you anything you can't learn yourself for free, but its structured and you can cover the groundwork quickly.

You can teach yourself by deconstructing the demo tracks and using google fu every time you run into a technical problem you don't know how to solve. If you do this you have to be careful because theres alot of misinformation out there and you can get led astray by focusing your attention in areas that in the scheme of things don't really matter.

As for samples, theres tonnes of great ones out there for free like the Doru Malaia demo packs, the Meanbeat packs. You can usually pick up free teasers from Loopmasters, big fish audio, Vengeance, Uebershall et al. If you like the sounds, you can buy the commercial sample cds to get more.

Eventually you can build whole libraries of stock sounds but if you don't learn the basics of recording and programming your own sounds, production becomes like pick n mix (and to be honest, it will sound like it too). So I recommend you google programming tutorials on how to program basic synth drum sounds like the classic 909 and 808 drums.

You will have to figure out for yourself how much time you want to devote to sound design. Sample cds can be good because they are time savers and let you focus your attention on other aspects of song writing/production (like composition). Too much emphasis on sound design may impact in other areas. I feel like my sound design is very strong but I devoted far too much time to it without finishing tracks so my mixing is very disorganized and it needs alot of work.

General advice on where to learn on the internet? Stay the hell away from Gearslutz. I picked up the ropes from tranceaddict.com's production studio but that was a long time ago and the regulars weren't so jaded back then. You can find alot of good info in the form of tutorials but it is often of dubious quality. You will often get incorrect information. Alls I will say is that you will quickly outgrow most internet forum resources so use them for what you can get, then move on.

Gearslutz is probably the worst because many people there would have you believe you need 20k worth of analogue synths and outboard. If you do go there, you can pick up some good information but stay alert, objective and maintain a certain distance from the place. Don't take anything at face value and always question "why?"

If you spend too much time in a place like that without asking questions, you will end up filling your own head with the most unbelievable s**t. I've seen people become completely lost in that place. I mean they started out wanting to make music but after a while they turned into collectors. Theres at least one guy in the EDM forum that at one point was spending on the order of five to seven thousand dollars a month on gear. Then when I heard his first Jupiter-8 demo I was dumbfounded to find that he couldn't even play to grade-1 standard.

Speaking of grades, I recommend you take up an instrument and ideally get lessons with a view to going through your grades. If you can't afford lessons, then there are some good free youtube lessons. This might seem like alot to take in but take it one step at a time. I recommend making 2 hours each day where you spend 1 hour on learning an instrument and 1 hour on learning production. I cannot stress how important it is that you enjoy these 2 hours. Do anything you can to make them fun because if you can are motivated you can achieve incredible things. Set yourself simple goals that you can achieve 1 hour at a time. Resist the urge to do 10 hour marathons because you won't learn any quicker and you will trash your ears. As a general rule, do small bursts of learning but do it regularly (every day). This is always better than doing infrequent or irregular 10+ hour marathons.

Bren Jacob

Now thats what I call a reply!
Should be made a sticky at the top of the forum imho.

Clanket

Yeh great post Hayte. Fair play for taking the time.

I started out on Reason for a few months but quickly moved to Logic as I'd bought Express 8 at the same time as my Mac.

Whichever DAW you choose, there's loads of books on Amazon etc for getting the basics. And tons of Youtube videos. I preferred the books because of the structure. You can get lost in YouTube sometimes.

There's also a few places running courses. I did 'Realsound's Reason beginners course a few years back. Was cheap and gave me a good start.

It's all about putting in the hours. Good luck

ImGettinPaper

Try Fruity Loops.

olliephelan

REASON without a DOUBT ...........Im not a tech head , facebook even gives me problems . Id never seen a VST before , only in magazines . It took me 2o mins approx to figure out how to use each instrument , Drum machine (redrum ) subtractor (synth ) That was reason 1.0 . Im using reason 3 now , I could use reason 4 and have it loaded along with cubase SX (whicj youd need a degree to use) But I decided to stay with reason 3 .........Now Ive been using it for about 7 years and still feel NO NEED to change and dont feel restricted . Only CON is that you cant channel VOCALS into Reason , but that doesnt need to be a problem . Reason can be loaded into CUBASE as one instrument on one channel and the vocals recorded on another . BUT dont worry about that yet . Samples are provided with reason and all its upgrades , Also YOU CAN subscribe to CM (computer music magazine ) whivh will provide a disc full of samples and Plug-ins to use . Ive never felt the need to use them .
Ive heard of plenty of short commings with other VSTs but never heard anything negative about REASON . and cant say anything Bad about it . One hint , after using it for a while youll see the need to form a DUO , nearly all digitalo acts are DUOs. Its simply the burden of choice and needing a sounding board for ideas. So find a mate whose heading same direction . It should take about a 3 or 4 days to learn how to make a track (but itll be crap). After 7 years Im still learning new techniques and new ways to use reason . Lately Im using a SYNTH as a keyboard (nice electronica sound). And theres still functions that I wasnt aware of . A MIDI should cost you no more than 100....try an M-audio , or evolution . They only TRIGGER sounds in the programme , they dont make sounds themselves. so theres no difference in quality , just boxes with keys and knobs, which you assign to functions in reason (volume , modulation etc etc )
BUT a MIDI keyboard is ESSENTIAL , you need it to "doodle" and play with riffs.
DONT BUY REASON (im sure you can find someone wholl let you borrow it , wink wink.)
Youll only need a 2 octave midi. Later when your more experienced youll probably buy a larger 6 octave........good luck .........Ollie

olliephelan

You can use reason with CUBASE . cant ye ?.....and then anything else along with it through cubase .

(dont know why im saying it , ye need a degree for cubase sx.)

My next step , is to figure the easiest way to incorporate vocals along with reason . For the meantime , id just use a mike and amp and shell sing along , then when things get refined , just go to the professionals with the right gear .

Neverlandland

There are plenty of tutorials on youtube for creating different sounds, and there are plenty of forums that you can use where people will (may) help you to recreate a certain sound. I can't add too much to what Hayte said.

However, the following will be the best advice you will ever EVER hear for when you are in the middle of producing...

Turn off the internet.

olliephelan

oh , dont get me wrong , my only problem is with motivation . lol.

apart from that its incorporating vocals , but i think ill try that the good old fashioned way , and record when its worth recording . When i said "im still learning " after 7 yeARS , THAT A COMPLIMENT TO reason . theres just so much to discover and improvise outside the tutorials and rules ............YOUR RIGHT about turning off the net . i never watch tutorials anyway . the easiest way for me has been to learn as i make music ans solve problems (or learn ) as i encounter problems.
if i wasnt on net , i wouldnt have found MR MEEBLE......"until i grasp the second" .
look it up , its the best ive heard in years . and im very fussy

hubiedubie

Hayte wrote: »

Gearslutz is probably the worst because many people there would have you believe you need 20k worth of analogue synths and outboard. If you do go there, you can pick up some good information but stay alert, objective and maintain a certain distance from the place. Don't take anything at face value and always question "why?"

Great post Hayte. Agree with all of it. Esp the above. This place is useful but definitely perpetuates the myth that you need to spend money to get a good sound. The reality of the fact is that you can produce pro-level stuff with software only nowadays and at a very low cost. Analogue just sounds different to digital not necessarily better or worse and software emulations are coming pretty close. Entry level converters are ridiculously close to the
high end Apogee / Lavry / Prism ones

To the OP, there are a few stages to production. I recommend you spend equal time weekly in the following areas:

1. synthesis / sound design
2. pattern/melody creation
3. arrangement
4. mixing/mastering

If you learn an instrument (recommended) that will really help with 2 and 3. There are loads of resources online for the others (Gearslutz, kvraudio, mnml.nl, propellerheads tutorials, youtube etc).

Re sample library producers, I would recommend the following for your chosen style (House):
1. Waveform Recordings
2. Riemann
3. Wave Alchemy
4. Samplemagic.

The 3 products you mention are all excellent and you should be able to produce complete tracks with all of them. Maschine has the added hands on aspect and it is by far the best integrated software / hardware hybrid on the market. It also now supports VSTs. However it's not as much of a 'standard' as the other too so it's harder to find courses / information for it.

I use Ableton mostly and it's an very creative / inspiring tool especially session view.

If you go with Ableton i highly recommend this guy www.quantizecourses.com.

-Individual tailored feedback on your assignments and an hour long weekly chat.
I did an 8 week online course with him (Keith) and it's the single best thing I did for learning production. It covers Ableton but lots of general production tips.

hubiedubie

olliephelan wrote: »

DONT BUY REASON (im sure you can find someone wholl let you borrow it , wink wink.)

Are you serious? People have put their whole livelihoods into developing this software. Not cool.

Sky King

+1 pay for it dude.

Especially if you're going for ableton and plan to use it live... Also, their support is ace, you don't want some buggie cracked sh!te that won't work for you

Hayte

If you use the software you should buy it because it supports development. You may not realize it now, but when you start this gig you are part of a community that is all connected. You should give something back to the people that make it possible for you to record music in your bedroom. 15 years ago you'd be lucky if you had an 8 track or an Atari at home.

FL Studio is like 99 bucks for Producer Edition and Reaper is like 60 bucks for a home license. Both are well worth the money even if you use them only in an auxilliary capacity (i.e. scoring/composing in FL Studio's excellent piano roll and then rewiring to Reason for mixdown or running FL Studio as a plugin within Cubase).

I only use Reaper for its mixer and I reckon I still got my 60 bucks worth x1000. Theres amazing depth to that program and one day I'll learn how to use the rest of it, but right now its not a part of what I'm trying to build.

To put it in perspective, I've wasted more money in two weeks of rubbish overpriced packed lunches from the Centra because I couldn't be bothered to walk some place that sells real food.

Laserface

reason...is rubbish.
as a poster above me stated "reason has no limitations...you can't record/channel vocals into reason"

its ok for electronic music solely...but if you were inclined to wake up at 4 am on a tuesday morning to record a quick psychedelic love song for your estranged ex.. then forget it.

ImGettinPaper

Laserface wrote: »

reason...is rubbish.
as a poster above me stated "reason has no limitations...you can't record/channel vocals into reason"

its ok for electronic music solely...but if you were inclined to wake up at 4 am on a tuesday morning to record a quick psychedelic love song for your estranged ex.. then forget it.

I found Reason really hard to use even after purchasing a "how to" book. It's just so confusing. Fruity Loops is just as good and much easier to use in my opinion at least!

Hayte

Reason is just like a physical recording studio but on your screen so you rack your modules and patch everything with "virtual cables". I think its intuitive in the sense that you develop a visual understanding of signal flow, but there are some problems to do with mouse/keyboard control in virtual sound modules that look like real physical sound modules. i.e. they have rows of dials and sliders which are clumsy to activate precisely using a mouse. Dials and sliders are designed for direct control with your hands.

This isn't much different in many other DAWs though, such as FL Studio and its broadly the same with most VST instruments and signal processors. I use FL Studio and think its piano roll has amazing workflow (best piano roll in the business imho) but its not good at giving you a visual representation of signal flow. Most of this is invisible and hidden beneath the GUI. The mixer in particular is quite hard to decipher if you use alot of submixes and sub-submixes, which are at times necessary because FL Studio doesn't have fader groups. I use multiple submixes for fader grouping, manual delay compensation and as auxilliaries.

Consequently, it can get hard to tell what output is going where and whether its going into a channel input or an auxilliary input. It is also not clear at a glance whether a channel out is connected to another channel in or the master bus because the little yellow indicator is tiny and it looks the same for all channels.

Reason is perfectly viable for mic recording if you want to record live acoustic/electric stuff. Lack of VST/DX/AU support can be partially circumvented by rewiring to another DAW like Reaper, so you can basically use Reason inside of Reaper if you like Reason's day to day workflow.

It all gets you to the same point really, its just that the path is different. Some people find one path more intuitive than another, but when you start out, you won't know or care what works for you. Thats why you need to be dogged and think laterally when you run into something you can't do. i.e. you can't have fader groups in FL Studio so what do you do when you want to change the volume of 3 channels at the same time whilst keeping their relative levels in proportion? You improvise it by sending 3 channels to a 4th channel and using the 4th channel fader to control the volume of the other 3.

Polygon_window

Presonus studio pro (new version out in a few weeks) Join the revolution. However im a big advocate of hardware, especially analogue, too much rubbish is being released today using software. No doubt the vast majority of users here will say rubbish to that statement but hey let them believe what they want they will realise later rather than sooner!!

What you need:
Essentials:
Good studio monitors
Good audio interface
Daw (Studio 1 pro, Logic, Cubase, Protools) - forget the rest of em

Small hardware setup if you wanna go down that road:
Vermona drm1 mk3 (You will need a sequencer for this) or some of the mfb drum modules(pretty good)

Doepfer dark energy or some of the mfb synth modules
Nord lead 2x (Poly va)
or Maybe some of the dave smith instruments gear
Also vermona have a small synth module out - think it might be called the lancet

With that little setup you will be well on the way. Mastering section within Presonus studio one pro is top notch!!

Best of luck!

Hayte

^ The obligatory Gearslutz reply.

With that little setup, you will be well on your way to complete and utter bewilderment and frustration. Its difficult enough when you have to learn the fundamentals of a DAW let alone learn to program 3 or 4 extra synths on top of it, how all of the hardware interacts with the software and how to do it at the appropriate voltage reference so it doesn't mess up your metering and thus give you a completely messed up idea of how to gain stage and mix properly. There is also the additional latency at the A/D and the problem of cable management, assuming the guy even knows how to hook up 1 hardware synthesizer let alone 4 of them for audio *and* MIDI. You'll end up several thousands of euro in the hole and you don't even know if music production is right for you yet.

Its actually kind of cruel to give this sort of advice to someone starting out.

Doge

Polygon_window wrote: »

No doubt the vast majority of users here will say rubbish to that statement but hey let them believe what they want they will realise later rather than sooner!!

As its easier to make a soft synth, of course there's going to be a lot of rubbish made, but theres also a lot of great software out there, why ignore all the good the stuff?

I'm a hardware lover myself, but I think the OP would be better trying out the virtual stuff first.

1. Its freely available, (im not just talking about warez, I'm talking about freeware and shareware.)
2. If he invests in hardware first, he might regret it later due to lacking the knowledge.
3. The OP can learn pretty much everything about synthesis, sequencing etc... in the virtual environment.

Also, there are a lot of soft synths out there, that sound much better than hardware thats coming out lately, most of the hardware stuff out now is basically a soft synth inside a physical box anyway, using sound engines that are years old with not much of a change in sound.

And PC's have more far more processing power than what's inside the box of these VA's, so they have the potential to be much better in terms of sound and features.

I think Arturia's minimoog for instance is a fantastic sounding soft synth and has a near perfect emulation.
The subtle difference between both is not something that would make me fork out the extra for the real thing.

Polygon_window wrote: »

Daw (Studio 1 pro, Logic, Cubase, Protools) - forget the rest of em

But what if one of "the rest of em" have the workflow and features the user is more comfortable with?

You shouldn't assume what's best for the OP coincides with your own biased opinions!

I just think it was an extremely short-sighted post, especially when addressed to a newbie.

Polygon_window

i was expecting these responses, firstly that setup will cost 2 k max and since your buying the more lower end gear(but quality) you will be able to resell it quite easily
secondly, learn the basics of synthesis(subtractive) and you will be able to program any synth you want - quite a glaring ommision from the man who knows it all above, its also a lot easier to learn synthesis whilst knob twiddling rather than mouse clicking - fact
as mention the mastering section in studio one pro is top notch and quite easy to learn.
Connecting outboard gear is easy, getting the levels right will take a bit of time but once its done yiou can reuse the template for other projects!!

Any daw you buy will have lots of instruments/efx included so you will get a feel if you like it or not.
so buy a daw, some studio monitors and an audio interface and then maybe move on to good outboard gear!!

hubiedubie

For a beginner I would recommend either Studio One Pro or Ableton. Both excellent workflow, relatively simple and minimal feature bloat.

As a learning tool, i've found a knobby hardware synth to be much better than software.
Soundwise nowadays there's very little in it really, despite what many will claim.

Hayte

The danger is that some knobby synths are frightfully complicated. I like that there are simple modulars and stuff out there like Dark Energy because simple modulars are great for understanding signal flow. However, most people I know get into production via their computer so the physical process of patching cables is an alien concept.

The other thing is the issue of presets and patch memory, which you wont get on physical modular synth like Dark Energy. It is a good idea to learn basic sound design on a modular but patch memory is such a wonderful convenience because you can instantly recall sounds and you can switch sounds on the fly. Presets are also useful for deconstructing to see how they work. Thats a great way to get ideas and for stepping up your sound design chops.

I think a good introduction to synth programming that costs zero euros would look something like this:

1) Go get TAL U-noe-60 (its free).
2) Go read through this tutorial whilst playing with U-noe-60 to understand the basic soundshaping tools of a subtractive synthesizer.

Once you get comfortable with U-noe-60, go get Synth1 (also free). This is a much more technical synth but the same principles apply and you have more or less the same tools, just more of them.

Once you get comfortable with that, I recommend getting an introduction to MIDI and try binding one of the dials on screen to a physical knob on a MIDI controller. The end goal is to make all of the on screen dials have a physical knob on your keyboard controller so you have complete hands on control.

Soundwise nowadays there's very little in it really, despite what many will claim.

Agreed. A huge amount of the difference is a result of perception and expectation. I have quite a technical MIDI rig running through MIDI OX with loads of custom filters, transforms and scripts that lets me play everything on my Virus keyboard. I tab through channels on a computer keyboard to cycle through synths and I used to get confused all the time about what synth I was playing. I'm talking synths that you wouldn't think sound, feel or look even remotely the same i.e. impOSCar, Xpander and Sunsyn. I used to confuse them all the time.

It dawned on me that when you play everything through the same keyboard, everything feels and looks the same. Every synth feels like a Virus keyboard, and so a great deal of visual and tactile feedback along with a great deal of expectation has been made homogeneous. The look of a synth does surprisingly influence the way you approach using it and how you expect it to sound.

I don't get confused so much now because I've sold most of my hardware and my software setup has been slimmed down to bare essentials.

Doge

Polygon_window wrote: »

learn the basics of synthesis(subtractive) and you will be able to program any synth you want -

Yep, as a user of knobby synths, i agree 100%, you can pick it up much faster.

Btw, heres the next best thing for the softsynth i mentioned:

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=175232

Well for a newbie, for electronics geeks there's this:

http://midibox.org/forums/topic/13771-midibox-of-the-week-midibox-minimoog-by-alkex/

Polygon_window wrote: »

quite a glaring ommision from the man who knows it all above,

There's absolutely no need for that kind of ignorance man.

The point I made is that the beginner can pick it up for free, right now with software, albeit it might take longer.

He should try the software RIGHT NOW, learn, and if using the mouse wrecks his head THEN throw some dosh on the hardware,
rather than just buying the hardware immediately.

Polygon_window wrote: »

Connecting outboard gear is easy, getting the levels right will take a bit of time but once its done yiou can reuse the template for other projects!!

Yeah but as you know yourself the cabling can get real messy too.

I don't even have outboard gear, I just use internal effects, and christ, its messy enough as it is!
Must invest in a patch bay, and devise some cabling plan. The joys of hardware....

Anima

There is so much money and effort pumped into digital audio algorithms and effects that I don't think it makes sense to be buying hardware, unless you're going for a particular sound. Even just September gone by there was the DAFX convention, http://dafx.de/, which loads of universities show the new stuff they've developed.

Software absolutely beats hardware these days in pretty much every way but most importantly, it's the ease of use and possibilities you get with it . How many artists these days actually use hardware in their studios? I'd say they're in the minority at this stage.

Polygon_window

Anima wrote: »

There is so much money and effort pumped into digital audio algorithms and effects that I don't think it makes sense to be buying hardware, unless you're going for a particular sound. Even just September gone by there was the DAFX convention, http://dafx.de/, which loads of universities show the new stuff they've developed.

Software absolutely beats hardware these days in pretty much every way but most importantly, it's the ease of use and possibilities you get with it . How many artists these days actually use hardware in their studios? I'd say they're in the minority at this stage.

good to see people see my point of view!!! apologies for the cheapshot waveform but i found your post somewhat smug, anyway apologies,however good Analogue synths cannot be emulated - yet!!!, a track produced using the analogue sound is obvious to me not to the average punter though but hey im apurist, with enough processing on a vst you can get close but there is no way in my mind the warmth is there and there is warmth.

A good synth to learn synthesis on would be a nord lead, all the knobs are there on the panel and very understanable, its a poly synth, can also do bass too, its also digital but i rate it as the best digital synth around!!

on another note for me, working with all softsynths etc on a pc is boring as...... after a while anyway, i tried it and was bored numbless, way way way more fun using outboard gear and plus it givves you the magic feeling of being a musician!!
good luck!!

Hayte

At the risk of turning this into the dreaded hardware vs software discussion, a huge amount of the x factor with hardware doesn't have anything to do with how it sounds but rather with the way it looks, the way it feels to use it (tactility), your own expectation, confirmation bias and the opinions of others to name just a few.

These in turn frames your perception of how it sounds by giving you preconceived ideas of how it should sound.

Ultimately, a huge element of music is in your head. As a music producer you are essentially creating a believable illusion. You can also trick yourself, even if you know how the illusion is supposed to work.

How many times have you tweaked an EQ or a compressor and got banging results only to find out later that it was bypassed and was therefore doing absolutely nothing?

At the end of the day, I get nothing from people posting clunky sound samples of their Jupiter-8 or Pro-5 on forums because I'm not interested in an inherent property or characteristic of a solo instrument. I'm much more interested in what people craft with instruments. After a while it doesn't even seem to matter what the instrument is really, and I've seen far too many people make gold from s**t to believe that owning a Pro-5 or a Jupiter-8 by itself is a means of stepping up your craft. I feel that as fickle as the mob is, it fundamentally and collectively thinks along similar lines, even if they are not aware of what the craft of music production entails.

Doge

Polygon_window wrote: »

good to see people see my point of view!!! apologies for the cheapshot waveform but i found your post somewhat smug,

LOL! Thought the same of yours, no worries.

Polygon_window wrote: »

anyway apologies,however good Analogue synths cannot be emulated - yet!!!,

Maybe not 100%, but they certainly are getting there, i think the minimoog V is a great example.
My own gripe is that I think too many (not all) soft synths lack character, and all sound too similar, with mathematically perfect waveshapes,with filters that are too linear sounding,
It's the imperfections that give synths their own unique character.

The big obsession with emulating analog classics worsens this further,
by leaving us with only two choices:
softsynths that sound like those classics,
and softsynths that sound too similar.
We need more of the 3rd option - softsynths that sound comepletely new and unique

Its all subjective though,and i know people who even think analog snyths are overrated,
and actually prefer the "smooth" "silky" "liquid" sound of digital synths!

Polygon_window wrote: »

on another note for me, working with all softsynths etc on a pc is boring as...... after a while anyway, i tried it and was bored numbless, way way way more fun using outboard gear and plus it givves you the magic feeling of being a musician!!
good luck!!

Thats exactly what made me invest in hardware also.
My "DAW" is a yamaha RS7000, my eq and effects "plugins" are basically a digital mixer.
I'm trying stay away buying outboard gear for eq/compression/effects,
as I feel I have too much **** already, that I haven't fully mastered or pushed to the limit, working in limitations can be so much more rewarding than having loads of gear and not being able to put it to good use.

I will probably use a software DAW for mastering at some stage, but I'm miles away from that level yet.

If i had the space i would love to record music standing up, grooving away and feeling the music, rather than sitting down in front of a computer,
and record my ideas on the fly, live.

Now my posts have become very shortsighted too, as I've pretty much derailed the thread with gear talk and debate!

Sorry OP!

Laserface

sorry again Op.. but i'm going to jump into this hardware vs software thing too...

software will never ever ever emulate or replace hardware.

i'm a software lover in the studio... but hardware when i play live as you simply can't beat the feel and the rush of it. for me its thousands of times more fun and creative. simply because its more like playing an actual instrument.. sweat and all.. as opposed to hiding behind a screen.

a great way of demonstrating this: watch/listen to a live clip of the prodigy/aphex twin etc back in the early 90s.. so creative and horrifically juicy. and LIVE!
now watch/listen to some live clips of the prodigy/aphex twin in 2010.
Flat useless artificial laptop sets..triggered from a spacebar. no comparison.

i'd even go as far as saying that there hasn't been much epic electronic music made AT ALL since the birth of cheap home software. maybe the odd dubstep bassline here and there but compared to the electronic music that was made in the late 80s - late 90s.. its rubbish. why? software

my 2 cents

Laserface

Anima wrote: »

Software absolutely beats hardware these days in pretty much every way but most importantly, it's the ease of use and possibilities you get with it . How many artists these days actually use hardware in their studios? I'd say they're in the minority at this stage.

same argument could be used to say internet pornography is better than a real woman because its easier to download..and the women are even prettier.
its nonsense

you are correct about hardware users being in the minority which for me explains why there isn't much good electronic music these days..as mentioned in my last post. electronic music is now, sadly, disposable

Anima

Laserface wrote:

i'm a software lover in the studio

Laserface wrote:

its rubbish. why? software

What?

Hayte

Aphex Twin and the Prodigy didn't get worse because they stopped using hardware. They changed up and moved on and where they are now isn't where you want them to be.

Theres plenty of great electronic artists around right now though. Off the top of my head Son Kite/Minilogue and La Roux. The biggest difference between now and 1994 is that music production has largely become democratized through computers and software instruments. People also increasingly reveal their work before it is finished on their facebook or myspace music. You get to see all the musicians who are still learning the ropes on youtube, whereas before they were confined to their parent's garage.

The gems are still out there like they always were but it can be difficult to find them amidst the noise - the sheer volume of music being produced and sold. It is inevitable that the majority of it won't interest you.

The other problem with Aphex Twin and the Prodigy is that they built a very formidable name for themselves early in their careers and that is both a blessing and a curse. It is a blessing to see the fruit of your labours when you are still young but it is also a curse because others begin to have impossibly high expectations of you. That weight of expectation can crush you. Sometimes it is impossible to be better than what people imagine you can be.

Android 666

Laserface wrote: »

i'd even go as far as saying that there hasn't been much epic electronic music made AT ALL since the birth of cheap home software. maybe the odd dubstep bassline here and there but compared to the electronic music that was made in the late 80s - late 90s.. its rubbish. why? software

my 2 cents

What
a
crock
of
sh¡t…

seannash

All this bull**** talk of hardware vs software do any of ye actually get round to,ya know,making music and if so lets hear these tracks made with all hardware so we can hear how sonically superior they sound.:p

there is a ton of disposable music from every single genre of music now because of technology,its not just electronic music.


By the way agree wholeheartedly with Androids post,whats the difference in a kick from a 909 recorded into a daw and a sample of a kick from a 909?
There is none :eek:

seannash

software will never ever ever emulate or replace hardware

I think youll find it has replaced hardware on the overwhelming majority.
And fine if it doesnt emanulate an analogue synth but so what.you can get world class results with softsynths and some soft synths arent trying to emanulate any synth
Believe or not there are **** analogue synths out there,same way there are **** softsynths.

I dont buy this "i can tell its analogue compared to digital either"
Theres no way in a mix you can pick out the difference between a good softsynth and an analogue synth unless as stated its a very specific sound especially as most synths will be eq'd and maybe have effects on them,very rare you will have a pure synth sound in a final mix on a song.

Doge

seannash wrote: »

All this bull**** talk of hardware vs software do any of ye actually get round to,ya know,making music and if so lets hear these tracks made with all hardware so we can hear how sonically superior they sound.:p

there is a ton of disposable music from every single genre of music now because of technology,its not just electronic music.


By the way agree wholeheartedly with Androids post,whats the difference in a kick from a 909 recorded into a daw and a sample of a kick from a 909?
There is none :eek:

depends on how well recorded the sample is!

I can hear digital artifacts in the 808 and 909 samples included with the RS7000, I've been meaning to load a better sample kit myself lately.
But yeah, there should be no difference if its a decent quality sample.

99% of the tracks out there these days are digitally recorded anyway, even the ones pressed to vinyl
so it makes **** all difference.

seannash

waveform wrote: »

depends on how well recorded the sample is!

Which is kinda the point.you might have an analogue drum machine but you still have to get it inside your daw.meaning you have to run it through some decent converters.
I think its overkill especially when someone else has gone to the bother of doing it already

Polygon_window

seannash wrote: »

I think youll find it has replaced hardware on the overwhelming majority.
And fine if it doesnt emanulate an analogue synth but so what.you can get world class results with softsynths and some soft synths arent trying to emanulate any synth
Believe or not there are **** analogue synths out there,same way there are **** softsynths.

I dont buy this "i can tell its analogue compared to digital either"
Theres no way in a mix you can pick out the difference between a good softsynth and an analogue synth unless as stated its a very specific sound especially as most synths will be eq'd and maybe have effects on them,very rare you will have a pure synth sound in a final mix on a song.

Rubbish, a good analogue synth sticks out like a beggar in Monaco!!!

Polygon_window

seannash wrote: »

Which is kinda the point.you might have an analogue drum machine but you still have to get it inside your daw.meaning you have to run it through some decent converters.
I think its overkill especially when someone else has gone to the bother of doing it already

Laziness!

Doge

Polygon_window wrote: »

Rubbish, a good analogue synth sticks out like a beggar in Monaco!!!

Plenty of digital synths out there with bags of character that stick out just as much also.

The Yamaha DX series, The Ensoniq ESQ-1, the c64 sid chip (well it had an analog filter, digitals oscs though), and many many more which I havent listened to extensively.

seannash

Polygon_window wrote: »

Laziness!

So what your saying is that the results will be the exact same whether you use a good sample of a 909 or a real one and the only difference is that it takes alot more work to use a real 909.

Cool

seannash

Polygon_window wrote: »

Rubbish, a good analogue synth sticks out like a beggar in Monaco!!!

Ah yeah,lets just stick with that so.You believe after a synth has been compressed eq'd and maybe had effect put on it you can still tell.

Fair enough

Doge

seannash wrote: »

Ah yeah,lets just stick with that so.You believe after a synth has been compressed eq'd and maybe had effect put on it you can still tell.

Fair enough

Depends on the synth, and how much of a unique character it has.

Doesnt matter **** if its analog or digital really, but analogs generally do tend to have more of a unique chracter when compared to digital, in numbers i mean, especially when compared to soft synths.

Too many people compare digital emulations to recordings of the original synth which have all the eq and effects added.

They then proceed that the digital emulation lacks the "bite", and characteristics they remember from listening to these classic tracks.

The x0xb0x is an even more extreme case, it uses the same analog circuity of a TB-303 for the sound generation,

and yet people claim it lacks the bite of a real TB-303.

They seem to forget that eq and effects are necessary to make it sound like something they heard on a recorded track.

If the OP is still reading this thread,
then maybe ignore what ANYONE has to say and find your own path, this debate is more off putting than anything else for a newbie!

SteveDon

Polygon_window wrote: »

Laziness!

Let us hear some of your tracks then mr high and mighty!

Laserface

Android 666 wrote: »

What
a
crock
of
sh¡t…

my opinion is a crock of ****.. ?

interesting

the fact remains.. your Vst's have the letter V in them for a reason.

some seriously childish mud slinging in here. polygon window hardly comes across as high and mighty just because he actually knows his stuff.

i use software and hardware..and also am involved in running a local producer night.. where i see and experience almost every type of production thats possible. I always keep my mouth shut and my opinions to myself.. unless someone starts comparing a real synth to a virtual synth. their titles alone should give it away.

there are tons of huge differences between producers. You'll get lads thinking they are god's gift because they avoid sampled loops.. whereas every sound in their work is actually a sample. you'll get lads who don't have an ounce of musical talent or ability in their bodies but will think they are excellent just because they can master and can technically get something to sound good..with 3 weeks worth of effort. and you'll get hardware vs software heads killing each other too. like us.

why does everyone seem to think they know best about music? unless you are mozart or steve reich..?

its a shame it becomes as big an issue as it is.. after all you will rarely see non-electronic musicians fighting like this over who's bass strings are higher quality and whose footpedal produces the clearer flange.

each to their own..

and again.. thats my 2 cents. and thats all it is.

SteveDon

Laserface wrote: »

my opinion is a crock of ****.. ?

Well come on..... you can hardly say their hasnt been any good electronic music since software started becoming prevalent. There is an outrageous amount of good tracks been produced these days. There is an even more outrageous amount of **** tracks being made, but you can find epic tracks if you look.

Laserface wrote: »

some seriously childish mud slinging in here. polygon window hardly comes across as high and mighty just because he actually knows his stuff.

How can you say he knows what hes talking about if he hasnt posted any of his tracks?

If he really knows what hes on about he should be producing quality tunes..., so lets hear them mate.

Android 666

I was calling your opinion rubbish not because of the whole software/hardware debate which is frankly a load of tiresome bollix but because you contend that there has been no epic electronic music made in the last 10-15 years. Serioulsy what planet are you on? The music didn't stop being epic, you did. You sound like once of those heads that hangs around the oldskool thread on the electronic forum and you throw in a bit of rubbish about dubstep. There's going an unseemly amount of crap out there, I should know - I contribute to it - but right now is probably one of the most interesting times for underground electronic that there's ever been and this is coming from someone that can remember the 'classics' from the first time around. There is so much amazing music being made right now that it's unreal. There's always going to be bad trance, hardstyle and all that other rubbish but feck me check out labels like Hyperdub and Hotflush and artists like George Fitzgerald, Sandwell District and Joy Orbison and tell me that stuff isn't epic. You can bemoan the fact that it isn't made on an analogue synth, me, I'm hitting the dancefloor. To paraphase that monkey Ian Brown 'It isn't where you're coming from, it's where you're at!'

A dick making useless noise with a VST is the same as the dick making useless noise with a moog.

seannash

The mud slinging is never started by anyone who is a fan of soft synths,99% of times is when someone who is convinced analogue is the only way.

Just like what happened in this thread

red dave

Lads cool it...

My cocks bigger than all of your cocks put together!


Back to the OP...

If you're thinking about getting Abelton then yes go for it my son! I've heard many a good things about it. Lots of tutorials online for you to get up to speed with etc.

Yes also go for Maschine...this too I have heard good things about.


The End.

Polygon_window

SteveDon wrote: »

Well come on..... you can hardly say their hasnt been any good electronic music since software started becoming prevalent. There is an outrageous amount of good tracks been produced these days. There is an even more outrageous amount of **** tracks being made, but you can find epic tracks if you look.


How can you say he knows what hes talking about if he hasnt posted any of his tracks?

If he really knows what hes on about he should be producing quality tunes..., so lets hear them mate.

.1. i don't believe i ever said i knew my stuff!!!
.2. i don't post my tunes up for free!!!
.3. i have nothing to prove to you, i am merely given an opinion and advice to the op, its up to him
.4. i don't care what you think, learn the hard way, i have spent a whole lot of money building my studios and have been down the soft synth path many moons ago, i don't rate them and have stopped using them - my choice!!!
.5. Yes i do believe a lot of the new electronic music made with vst's is rubbish but of course there are exceptions to every rule, Pantha du prince being one of them, but are you that talented? have acess to the best studios in Berlin/Switzerland for mixing/mastering, if so, go for it!!
.6. Its far easier to learn the trade using real instruments!

i'm outta here -bye now!

oh and yes i do like to go to the trouble of creating my own beats for the same result!!! or so you may think!

SteveDon

Polygon_window wrote: »

.2. i don't post my tunes up for free!!!

So where can i buy them then if this isnt a complete cop out?

seannash

Polygon_window wrote: »

.
.2. i don't post my tunes up for free!!!

A Steve said,where can we buy them.there are also tons of site that let you stream music so people can hear it without having to pay