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flight 93 shot down ??

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  • 11-09-2011 7:44pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭


    i always believed this plane was actually shot down. there was only ever a massive hole in the ground at the alleged crash site. not much plane debris etc. what does people think??


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,174 ✭✭✭✭Captain Chaos


    If it was shot down there would still be alot of it left on the ground. Air to air missiles are not like the movies where the entire plane blows up to nothing. Even small fighters can and have survived a hit by air to air and surface to air missiles but there are times when they go up completely. A medium sized airliner would still be largely intact after a hit or even two but it would not survive those hits most likely.

    There would probably be a a trail of parts on the ground from when it was hit to when it crashed if it was shot down. Parts of the wing, engine pods etc.

    The reason there would not be much of it left at the crash site is if it hit the ground going very fast, not the result of a shoot down. Not saying outright that it was not shot down, but using an observation that there was not much wreckage at the crash site does not support a shoot down theory or make a strong case for it. Still could have happened, not conclusive evidence from the crash site alone unless they found traces of the blast frag explosive warhead used on an AIM-9 or 120. Doubt a fighter would use the gun or close enough to use it and live with his/ her actions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 83 ✭✭username2010


    Watch Loose Change 9/11 people - alternative theories regarding these horrible events...


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,208 ✭✭✭shamrock55


    didnt donald rumsfeld say on live tv that it was shot down!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,174 ✭✭✭✭Captain Chaos


    shamrock55 wrote: »
    didnt donald rumsfeld say on live tv that it was shot down!!

    Yep, the clip is on youtube. And he does not correct himself either.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Watch Loose Change 9/11 people - alternative theories regarding these horrible events...

    You do realise that one of the main people behind Loose Change now openly says he doesn't believe most to the conspiracies. That's aside from the fact it's full of crap.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭jumpjack


    auditek923 wrote: »
    i always believed this plane was actually shot down. there was only ever a massive hole in the ground at the alleged crash site. not much plane debris etc. what does people think??

    What we should really ask is "why the hell should NOT they have shot it???"
    And: "Why the hell should passengers have crashed the plane by themselves?!?Because they were 44 heroes???"
    Please.... :rolleyes:

    There were around 4000 planes flying around, nobody could know how many were been hijacked, 3 of them already caused diasters, fighter planes were already on the route and they had not yet been able to prevent any of the "accidents" by shooting anything; then what's the latest news? "a possibile further hijacked plane is possibly going to White House or Congress"; what should they have done? Wait & hope? :eek: Wait for orders? From who?

    I simply think the commander of the airbase where the fighters took off from ordered to shoot down the plane; or even that the two pilots decided by themselves, once they understood what was possibly going on, to shoot the plane.

    Hence the "alternative explanation" to prevent scandal.

    But it will be revealed only after 50 or 100 years, once nobody will care anymore.

    The evidence of all of this?!?
    How is it possible that a plane filled with fuel fallen in a forest does not burn all the surroundings, while similar plane crashing into a building burns the surroundings for hours?!? Please... :D
    An airline plane filled with fuel and hit by a missile would literally explode in the air, it couldn't behave like a small military plane containing just "a few" gallons of fuel: an airline plane contains several THOUSANDS of liters of gasoline!

    BTW:
    It was not planned to take down the Twin Towers, it was only planned to hit them with planes causing some HUNDREDS of casualties. Getting them down was just a "plus".
    I don't even think 20 persons were needed to set up all this mess: one single people was enough to hijack a plane before 9/11 (just hit the hostess and get in crew cabin, and you've done): 4 people set up a "new pearl harbour". Is it acceptable? Of course not, hence "let's find some arabic people in the passengers lists and let's "use" them to build up a story to save our dignity..." :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,285 ✭✭✭tfitzgerald


    Jumpjack are you saying there was only four hijackers and that the others were only poor innocent Arabic people who happened to be on the planes?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2 jimbo00


    a friend of mine works for the US airforce. A colleague of his loaded missles onto 2 fighter jets and when the jets came back to base the missles were gone. make of that what you will!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Jumpjack are you saying there was only four hijackers and that the others were only poor innocent Arabic people who happened to be on the planes?

    This must be the strangest theory yet.


  • Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭jumpjack


    Jumpjack are you saying there was only four hijackers and that the others were only poor innocent Arabic people who happened to be on the planes?
    Yes.
    This is the first thing I thought on 9/11/2001 looking at that mess, and I'm still convinced this is the truth. Whoever would have ever thought of attacking the strongest military power of the world and would have ever thought of succeeding? A moron version of Bin Laden? Please... :rolleyes:
    Four mad persons.
    Four lucky persons (2996 casualties rather than a couple of hundreds)
    Now four "heroes" (arabic heroes).
    One happy arabic leader.

    Probably 5 out of 100 is the usual percentage of arabic people in american airlines passengers! :D Put 4 flights together, ~60 seats on each one, and you get 240 people, and more than 10 of them are arabic. (at least this ws possibile before 9/11).


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭jackiebaron


    Well wasn't one of the engines of flight 93 found over a mile away from the main crash site? That would suggest that the engine came away from the plane in mid-air and continued on its parabolic trajectory through the air until it landed over a mile away from where the body of the plane umpacted the ground.

    And this crap about a few passengers (Let's roll! :pac:) storming the cockpit and flying the plane into the ground is positively laughable. Who makes this stuff up?


  • Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭jumpjack


    jimbo00 wrote: »
    a friend of mine works for the US airforce. A colleague of his loaded missles onto 2 fighter jets and when the jets came back to base the missles were gone. make of that what you will!
    "ops, I dropped them." :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭ctrl-alt-delete


    jimbo00 wrote: »
    a friend of mine works for the US airforce. A colleague of his loaded missles onto 2 fighter jets and when the jets came back to base the missles were gone. make of that what you will!

    So is he looking to sell them then? I might know somebody who is interested in them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭jumpjack


    BTW, I don't know American history, but how has Pearl Harbour disaster been justified by historians? Was it a conspiracy? Did anyone betray his Country?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭jackiebaron


    jumpjack wrote: »
    BTW, I don't know American history, but how has Pearl Harbour disaster been justified by historians? Was it a conspiracy? Did anyone betray his Country?

    The US never acted in a neutral manner prior to entering the Second World War. Remember that war had been raging in Asia for years prior to Pearl Harbour as well as for at least 2 years in Europe. The US needed an excuse to enter the war. They had been constantly targeting German vessels in the Atlantic prior to 1941.
    They had been doing the same to the Japanese in the Pacific. The US wanted control of the resources of the Pacific theatre, resources such as oil, lumber, rubber, etc. The Japanese knew that the US were going to enter the war sooner or later so they (the Japs) really had no choice but to slow them down by bombing their Pearl Harbour fleet. The US let it happen, it was no surprise.
    It's basically like if you know that a bully is going to target you on the way home from school. He knows it, you know it so all you can really do is swing one at him and hope for the best. If he's a coward it may send him running but if he's just a plain mental bastard he'll use the pretext of you thumping him to justify beating the crap out of you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Bear in mind though that the Japanese were attempting to build an empire in Asia and had already conquered China and Korea and had carried out untold atrocities in the process. They had plenty of their own Doctor Mengeles - and these guys were never brought to justice by the Japanese authorities after the war as far as I'm aware. Their plans to control the whole Pacific Ocean required that they neuter the US first.

    It's not like the nasty USA were about to bully poor little Japan for no good reason.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,988 ✭✭✭enno99


    Bear in mind though that the Japanese were attempting to build an empire in Asia and had already conquered China and Korea and had carried out untold atrocities in the process. They had plenty of their own Doctor Mengeles - and these guys were never brought to justice by the Japanese authorities after the war as far as I'm aware. Their plans to control the whole Pacific Ocean required that they neuter the US first.

    It's not like the nasty USA were about to bully poor little Japan for no good reason.

    Never brought to justice by the US either they covered it all up even the torture of American prisoners so they could get the research

    Many of the scientists involved in Unit 731 went on to prominent careers in post-war politics, academia, business, and medicine. Some were arrested by Soviet forces and tried at the Khabarovsk War Crime Trials; others surrendered to the American Forces.

    On 6 May 1947, Douglas MacArthur, as Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces, wrote to Washington that "additional data, possibly some statements from Ishii probably can be obtained by informing Japanese involved that information will be retained in intelligence channels and will not be employed as 'War Crimes' evidence."[7] The deal was concluded in 1948.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,225 ✭✭✭Ciaran500


    Well wasn't one of the engines of flight 93 found over a mile away from the main crash site? That would suggest that the engine came away from the plane in mid-air and continued on its parabolic trajectory through the air until it landed over a mile away from where the body of the plane umpacted the ground.

    It tumbled downhill for quite a distance, doesn't mean it came off mid air.


    The US have openly said they sent fighter jets with no live munitions on board to take down United 93 and they were preparing jets with live munitions to shoot it down if they failed. Why would they not admit to shooting it down?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭Di0genes


    1) The four hijackers purchased tickets under their own names and boarded the plane. One was randomly selected for and passed additional security screening. Ziad Jarrah was a licensed pilot and had recent training on professional large jet flight simulators. United flight 93 was scheduled to depart at 8:00 am, but left 42 minutes late due to airport traffic. Aboard were 33 passengers, 7 crew members, and 4 hijackers.

    2) Several passengers and crew called from the plane, spoke with loved ones, described the hijackers' attack, and related their plan to try to retake the plane so that it would not be used as a suicide weapon against a populated area. All but two of these calls were made using the plane's seatback Airfones.

    3) The cockpit voice recorder recorded the hijackers' attack and apparent murder of the pilots and a flight attendant. Air traffic controllers heard a radio transmission by a man with an Arabic accent, warning of a bomb on board. Passengers reported that one of the hijackers had what appeared to be a bomb strapped to him.

    4) After learning about the other attacks, passengers and cabin crew attempted to retake the cockpit but were apparently unable to gain entry. The sound of their attempts was recorded on the CVR. The CVR also recorded the hijackers' decision to end the flight, followed by repeated shouts of "Allahu Akbar!" ("God is greatest.") until the plane crashed. Families of victims heard the CVR recording.


    5) Flight 93 was tracked by radar until it went down.


    6) Many people in Pennsylvania saw the Boeing 757, traveling at low altitude and high speed, roll to the right and plummet upside-down, nose first, towards the ground. Many people witnessed the subsequent enormous explosion and fireball. Val McClatchey photographed the mushroom cloud.


    7) Hundreds of first responders (mostly volunteer firefighters) and crime scene investigators were quickly on the scene. They saw human remains, aircraft wreckage, personal effects, jet fuel, etc.
    The cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder were recovered and had usable data, all of which is consistent with the other evidence.

    8) The remains of every victim was positively identified. Somerset County Coroner Wallace Miller personally collected many remains and made 12 identifications through fingerprints and dental records. Personal effects of most passengers and crew were recovered and returned to their families.

    9) Hijacker identification documents and personal effects were recovered, along with the remains of four people identified as the hijackers through the process of elimination.

    10) Nearly all of the aircraft was recovered by professional investigators and by civilians. The debris was returned to United Airlines after being examined for evidence of explosives use.

    http://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/flight93page1

    Eyewitness accounts of the plane going down, supported by radar telemetry, and the voices in the CVR, makes it fairly conclusive that United 93 crashed due to the brave actions of the passengers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭jumpjack


    Di0genes wrote: »
    http://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/flight93page1

    Eyewitness accounts of the plane going down, supported by radar telemetry, and the voices in the CVR, makes it fairly conclusive that United 93 crashed due to the brave actions of the passengers.
    Yes, and I myself can "eyewitness" I saw a big hole in the ground near the trees, in pictures.
    Unfortunately, it's a fake hole, just like the fake mushroom cloud (promptly withdrawn from internet).
    Green grass on a plane crash site?!? (with the plane being filled with fuel). A dozen of burnt trees?!?

    Flight93handsandknees-full.jpg

    Please!! Are we dumb?!? :D:D

    I also studied flight recorder data, clearly absurd in last 3 minutes of the flight (of course, as the plane had been hit and it was fallin apart in pieces).


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭Di0genes


    jumpjack wrote: »
    Yes, and I myself can "eyewitness" I saw a big hole in the ground near the trees, in pictures.

    Oh Dear, Didn't read the link did we.
    Bob Blair was completing a routine drive to Shade Creek just after 10 a.m. Tuesday, when he saw a huge silver plane fly past him just above the treetops and crash into the woods along Lambertsville Road.

    Blair, of Stoystown, a driver with Jim Barron Trucking of Somerset, was traveling in a coal truck along with Doug Miller of Somerset, when they saw the plane spiraling to the ground and then explode on the outskirts of Lambertsville.

    “I saw the plane flying upside down overhead and crash into the nearby trees. My buddy, Doug, and I grabbed our fire extinguishers and ran to the scene,” said Blair. Source



    "It was low enough, I thought you could probably count the rivets. You could see more of the roof of the plane than you could the belly. It was on its side. There was a great explosion and you could see the flames. It was a massive, massive explosion. Flames and then smoke and then a massive, massive mushroom cloud." Source


    Then Peterson said he saw a fireball, heard an explosion and saw a mushroom cloud of smoke rise into the sky.

    Peterson rushed to the scene on an all-terrain vehicle and when he arrived he saw bits and pieces of an airliner spread over a large area of an abandoned strip-mine in Stonycreek Township.

    "There was a crater in the ground that was really burning," Peterson said. Strewn about were pieces of clothing hanging from trees and parts of the Boeing 757, but nothing bigger than a couple of feet long, he said. Many of the items were burning. Source
    Rob Kimmel, several miles from the crash site: He sees it fly overhead, banking hard to the right. It is 200 feet or less off the ground as it crests a hill to the southeast. "I saw the top of the plane, not the bottom." [Among the Heroes, by Jere Longman, p. 210-211]


    Tom Fritz, about a quarter-mile from the crash site: He hears a sound that "wasn't quite right" and looks up in the sky. "It dropped all of a sudden, like a stone," going "so fast that you couldn't even make out what color it was." [St. Petersburg Times, 9/12/01]


    Terry Butler "It dropped out of the clouds." The plane rose slightly, trying to gain altitude, then "it just went flip to the right and then straight down." [Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 9/12/01]

    Terry Butler: He sees the plane come out of the clouds, low to the ground. "It was moving like you wouldn't believe. Next thing I knew it makes a heck of a sharp, right-hand turn." It banks to the right and appears to be trying to climb to clear one of the ridges, but it continues to turn to the right and then veers behind a ridge. About a second later it crashes. [St. Petersburg Times, 9/12/01]


    Lee Purbaugh, 300 yards away: "There was an incredibly loud rumbling sound and there it was, right there, right above my head – maybe 50 feet up.... I saw it rock from side to side then, suddenly, it dipped and dived, nose first, with a huge explosion, into the ground. I knew immediately that no one could possibly have survived." [Independent, 8/13/02]


    Linda Shepley: She hears a loud bang and sees the plane bank to the side. [ABC News, 9/11/01] She sees the plane wobbling right and left, at a low altitude of roughly 2,500 feet, when suddenly the right wing dips straight down, and the plane plunges into the earth. [Philadelphia Daily News, 11/15/01]


    Kelly Leverknight in Stony Creek Township of Shanksville: "There was no smoke, it just went straight down. I saw the belly of the plane." It sounds like it is flying low, and it's heading east. [Daily American, 9/12/01, St. Petersburg Times, 9/12/01]


    A witness told WTAE-TV's Paul Van Osdol that she saw the plane overhead. It made a high-pitched, screeching sound. The plane then made a sharp, 90-degree downward turn and crashed. Source


    Tim Thornsberg, working in a nearby strip mine: "It came in low over the trees and started wobbling. Then it just rolled over and was flying upside down for a few seconds ... and then it kind of stalled and did a nose dive over the trees." [WPIX Channel 11, 9/13/01]


    Paula Pluta of Stonycreek Township was watching a television rerun of “Little House on the Prairie” when the plane went down about 1,500 yards from her home along Lambertsville Road at Little Prairie Lane.

    “I looked out the window and saw the plane nose-dive right into the ground,” she said, barefoot and shaken just 45 minutes after the crash.

    The explosion buckled her garage doors and blasted open a latched window on her home, she said.

    “It was just a streak of silver. Then a fireball shot up as high as the clouds. There was no way anybody could have survived. I called 911 right away.

    “There was no way anything was left,” Pluta added. “There was just charred pieces of metal and a big hole. The plane didn’t slide into the crash. It went straight into the ground. Wings out. Nose down.” Source
    Unfortunately, it's a fake hole,

    So you think the people who responded to the crash, and worked the crash site for days afterwards were

    A) Too stupid to spot it was a fake. (because you could figure that out from photos)

    or

    B) Complicit in a conspiracy to cover up the cause of death for nearly a hundred people.

    So which do you think the people are who worked the crash site? Stupid or Criminals?

    People like....
    On 9/11 alone, these included: • 8 Police Departments • 7 EMS Services • 8 Fire Departments • 10 Emergency Management Agencies • NTSB • ATF • FBI • CISM • Red Cross • United Airlines

    Some of the first people at the crash site were;
    Shanksville Volunteer Fire Company, Stoystown Volunteer Fire Company, Central City Fire Department, Berlin Fire Department, Friedens Volunteer Fire Department, Listie Volunteer Fire Company, Somerset Volunteer Fire Department, Somerset Ambulance Association, Hooversville Volunteer Fire Department, and the Hooversville Rescue Squad.

    So which is it jumpjack are the volunteer members of these fire deparments so stupid that they can't spot a fake plan crash, or are they part of the conspiracy?
    just like the fake mushroom cloud (promptly withdrawn from internet).

    Val MaClatchy's photo?

    Green grass on a plane crash site?!? (with the plane being filled with fuel). A dozen of burnt trees?!?

    Flight93handsandknees-full.jpg

    Please!! Are we dumb?!? :D:D

    When was that photo taken?
    I also studied flight recorder data, clearly absurd in last 3 minutes of the flight (of course, as the plane had been hit and it was fallin apart in pieces).

    The flight data recorder is supported by the cockpit voice recorder, eye witnesses, phone conversations between passengers and loved ones.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,451 ✭✭✭weisses


    I would admit as a government (true or false)admit that the plane was shot down ...sends out a message that says ....Yes we shoot down a hijacked plane when it suits us so don't bother trying


    They got away with less plausible explanations that day :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭jumpjack


    Di0genes wrote: »

    So which do you think the people are who worked the crash site? Stupid or Criminals?

    I don't think it was very hard to ask the local marshal to get his people placing 50 kg TNT, detonate them, fill the hole with some wreckage and burn a dozen of trees.

    Others came after and just viewed the scene.

    Probably remainings of plane passengers are all spread out in the trees... Or more probably wild animals "cleaned up" all in a few days.

    Very sad.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,061 ✭✭✭Kenny Logins


    jimbo00 wrote: »
    a friend of mine works for the US airforce. A colleague of his loaded missles onto 2 fighter jets and when the jets came back to base the missles were gone. make of that what you will!

    Wow. I'm convinced.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,544 ✭✭✭Hogzy


    If it was shot down then the debris field would be a hell of a lot larger than just a corner of a field. It would be spread over miles and miles of countryside.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    jumpjack wrote: »
    I don't think it was very hard to ask the local marshal to get his people placing 50 kg TNT, detonate them, fill the hole with some wreckage and burn a dozen of trees.

    Others came after and just viewed the scene.

    Probably remainings of plane passengers are all spread out in the trees... Or more probably wild animals "cleaned up" all in a few days.

    Very sad.

    And all the people who saw the plane fly right over them? And how many people had to be in on this conspiracy, none of whom have told anybody about it in a decade? And local marshals aren't in the habit of carrying around 50 kilos of TNT - or any at all in fact, and would not be expected to know the first thing about explosives.

    Your idea works only if we ignore a mountain of evidence and common sense too.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭Di0genes


    jumpjack wrote: »
    I don't think it was very hard to ask the local marshal to get his people placing 50 kg TNT, detonate them, fill the hole with some wreckage and burn a dozen of trees.

    And you think all those volunteer firemen and state police would be happy to take part in vast criminal conspiracy theory?
    Others came after and just viewed the scene.


    They didn't just "view" the scene they searched for survivors, then combed the wreckage for days and weeks finding and identifying each piece of remains.....
    Probably remainings of plane passengers are all spread out in the trees... Or more probably wild animals "cleaned up" all in a few days.

    Very sad.

    Thats just classy you've clearly not read anything about the work of volunteers the red cross, crash investigators, who spent months toiling over the crash site, looking for evidence, personal effects and DNA...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    Personally I believe it was shot down, which, if it was, was the right thing to do sadly.

    I do also think that if the US Government had successfully shot down all four planes, we'd still be blistered with conspiracy theories...albeit wilder ones. No matter what happens, people will see conspiracies everywhere.

    Imagine a situation where all four planes were shot down & the trade centers were still standing.

    "There were high level diplomats on board, about to initiate Disclosure"
    "There were people on board infected with a new biological super germ"
    "Someone on board had stolen state secrets"

    You could go on forever.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 833 ✭✭✭snafuk35


    Personally I believe it was shot down, which, if it was, was the right thing to do sadly.

    The CVR clearly shows that passengers stormed the cockpit before the plane crashed into the ground. Witnesses on the ground saw the plane go down and nothing they saw indicated whatsoever that the plane was shot down. Investigators combed the crash site and recovered the wreckage which showed no evidence whatsoever of a missile strike or air to air cannon fire. There was not a trace of explosive found at the scene.
    The evidence clearly indicates therefore there was not shoot down.

    If Flight 93 was shot down there would be no way the US government could have covered it up.

    And by the way is that same government that failed to cover up the Pat Tillman scandal, the Abu Graib scandal, the Scooter Libby scandal etc etc etc.

    Do you really believe that a government this incompetent could have pulled it off?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,544 ✭✭✭Hogzy


    snafuk35 wrote: »
    Do you really believe that a government this incompetent could have pulled it off?

    This should be the first questions all conspiracy theorists should be asking themselves about 9/11


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