Stroke Count For a Scratch

BigBoi83

Hey, can anybody tell me how many strokes are given for a scratched hole? I used to think it was double the par but recently i heard it was less..

Cheers.

Sandwlch

No strokes are given for a scratched hole as far as the score goes. It is simply blank and so a loss or zero points for vpar or stableford competitions, or a no return for a stroke competition (i.e. you cannot 'scratch' a hole and return a score).

(For handicapped golfers and the calculation of adjustments in qualifying competitions, two above par.)

Opics

I can't make heads or tails of this thread.


If you mean what score you write on the card....you don't write a score because you didn't make one. You either leave it blank or put a / in it.

Almaviva

In Mario Golf you get marked down for a 10 as the highest score, whether the hole is a par 3, par 4, or 5. So double the par if its a 5 alright. So presumably the same in a real game.

C.O.Y.B.I.B

I had a 23 HC tell me once that he went around in 75 strokes in a 18 hole strokes round in which we were keeping our own scores (was an assessment round for Best Cup). When seeing how amazed I was he said " Whats more impressive is I had that score despite scratching 5 holes". I left him to it thinking he had the best score that day !!!

ernieprice

It is an adjustment (for handicap purpose ONLY) not affecting the result of a competition. Here is an example from CONGU.

A competitor playing in a stroke play competition and playing off a handicap of 15 returns a nett score 70 which equals the css of the day. His scorecard contained an 8 at the par 4, 5th hole which was index 6. His score was adjusted using the following method. 4 for par of hole plus 2 which would have given him a point in stableford and plus 1 which was the next stroke giving him a no score in stableford. So basically your score is adjusted to the point where you would have no score in a stableford competition. In this example the player would have not scored if he made a 7, so his 8 becomes 7 for handicap purposes, his nett score becomes 69 and he is deducted .3 from his exact handicap. Hope this helps.

0161allin

ernieprice wrote: »

It is an adjustment (for handicap purpose ONLY) not affecting the result of a competition. Here is an example from CONGU.

A competitor playing in a stroke play competition and playing off a handicap of 15 returns a nett score 70 which equals the css of the day. His scorecard contained an 8 at the par 4, 5th hole which was index 6. His score was adjusted using the following method. 4 for par of hole plus 2 which would have given him a point in stableford and plus 1 which was the next stroke giving him a no score in stableford. So basically your score is adjusted to the point where you would have no score in a stableford competition. In this example the player would have not scored if he made a 7, so his 8 becomes 7 for handicap purposes, his nett score becomes 69 and he is deducted .3 from his exact handicap. Hope this helps.

I not saying your wrong but i was to believe that in calculating your handicap if for example you shoot 6 on a par 3 say 18hcp thats a scratch but calculating for handicap would be adjusted to a 5 and 6 on a 4 and 5 on a 7 etc for handicap purpose nothing to do with calculating score for comps..
So Op there is no score for a scratch its a scratch but for handicaps the maximum score you can get for each hole is 2 shots above its par..

Jul3s

Almaviva wrote: »

In Mario Golf you get marked down for a 10 as the highest score, whether the hole is a par 3, par 4, or 5. So double the par if its a 5 alright. So presumably the same in a real game.

+1
If it's good enough for Mario it should be good enough for the rest of us.

ernieprice

0161allin wrote: »

I not saying your wrong but i was to believe that in calculating your handicap if for example you shoot 6 on a par 3 say 18hcp thats a scratch but calculating for handicap would be adjusted to a 5 and 6 on a 4 and 5 on a 7 etc for handicap purpose nothing to do with calculating score for comps..
So Op there is no score for a scratch its a scratch but for handicaps the maximum score you can get for each hole is 2 shots above its par..

What I have quoted is from the Official book issued by CONGU "Unified Handicapping System". It is available from your home club. The 2 shots above par is the formula that is used to calculate a handicap for a new player.

stockdam

ernieprice wrote: »

It is an adjustment (for handicap purpose ONLY) not affecting the result of a competition. Here is an example from CONGU......

+1

If a player hands a card in with a scratch on a hole then for handicap adjustment/assessment purposes a "score" is entered which is the lowest one that zero points would be scored on that hole.

For a player submitting cards for a new handicap then I think double bogey would be entered for each scratched hole.

stockdam

0161allin wrote: »

I not saying your wrong but i was to believe that in calculating your handicap if for example you shoot 6 on a par 3 say 18hcp thats a scratch but calculating for handicap would be adjusted to a 5

If your handicap is 18 (as I think you are implying) then a 6 on a par three gives you zero points in stableford. If the handicapping committee were reviewing the card then they would still give you a 6 at this hole (they would give you a 6 if you scored 6 or more or if you scratched the hole)........they give you the minimum score that would score zero points after allowing for handicap strokes.

Myksyk

stockdam wrote: »

If your handicap is 18 (as I think you are implying) then a 6 on a par three gives you zero points in stableford. If the handicapping committee were reviewing the card then they would still give you a 6 at this hole (they would give you a 6 if you scored 6 or more or if you scratched the hole)........they give you the minimum score that would score zero points after allowing for handicap strokes.

The handicap committee will give a 5 at this hole when calculating handicap. They do not work off stableford as they have no handicap to work off. Their stroke adjustments to the card involve changing anything worse than a double back to a double.

Edit: Sorry, Stockdam, I see that you made this point in your penultimate post.

GreeBo

+2 above Net Par.

That is all.

0161allin

I see, my bad, miss informed,learn something new every day,taught it was the same but all makes sense. Ty

BigBoi83

Opics wrote: »

I can't make heads or tails of this thread.


If you mean what score you write on the card....you don't write a score because you didn't make one. You either leave it blank or put a / in it.

Sorry, didnt think to explain my question properly...
What was meant was, when adding up the strokes at the end of the day more than what points you get..

How many strokes over par would you be when a scratch is called?
Hope this makes more sense, and sorry for the mix up.. new to golf myself so not really 100% on things:o:o:o

Jul3s

BigBoi83 wrote: »

Sorry, didnt think to explain my question properly...
What was meant was, when adding up the strokes at the end of the day more than what points you get..

How many strokes over par would you be when a scratch is called?
Hope this makes more sense, and sorry for the mix up.. new to golf myself so not really 100% on things:o:o:o

A scratch is way of saying no score, zilch, nada, zero, nothing. So if you're playing a competitive round you write zero or put a line through it, if you are playing a casual round then you can write whatever you like.

dnjoyce

If you scratch the first hole in a stroke competition, I'm pretty sure the computer just goes straight to NR, not requiring any other scores to be entered -so an automatic .1 back - there is no consideration of a double bogey for handicapping purposes. If you finish out and have a 10 (for example), then your score would get rounded down to a nett double for handicap purposes but not if you scratch completely.

Holy Diver

dnjoyce wrote: »

If you scratch the first hole in a stroke competition, I'm pretty sure the computer just goes straight to NR, not requiring any other scores to be entered -so an automatic .1 back - there is no consideration of a double bogey for handicapping purposes. If you finish out and have a 10 (for example), then your score would get rounded down to a nett double for handicap purposes but not if you scratch completely.

Indeed. Of course a scratch was not intended to be a score for strokeplay as you have to finish out each hole to have a total stroke count. Obviously I would have thought?

AldilaMan

dnjoyce wrote: »

If you scratch the first hole in a stroke competition, I'm pretty sure the computer just goes straight to NR, not requiring any other scores to be entered -so an automatic .1 back - there is no consideration of a double bogey for handicapping purposes. If you finish out and have a 10 (for example), then your score would get rounded down to a nett double for handicap purposes but not if you scratch completely.

This is incorrect. If you enter a zero for the first hole not having finished out in a strokes competition then for handicap purposes clause 19.8 is used to allocate a score of Nett double bogey for that hole (which would be 7 on a par 4 if you receive a shot on that hole). You can continue your round and if you play well enough for the remainder of the round you can be cut but you are out of the competition as regards prizes.

PhilipMarlowe

dnjoyce wrote: »

If you scratch the first hole in a stroke competition, I'm pretty sure the computer just goes straight to NR, not requiring any other scores to be entered -so an automatic .1 back - there is no consideration of a double bogey for handicapping purposes. If you finish out and have a 10 (for example), then your score would get rounded down to a nett double for handicap purposes but not if you scratch completely.

Ok, the whole thread is weird but I'll give it a go...

The concept of a 'stroke equivalent' for a scratch is kind of looking at things in reverse in a way. The only time I would ever "assign" a stroke equivalent for a scratch would be when assessing 3 cards handed in for handicapping purposes. In this scenario, any big scores (or scratches) are adjusted to a double bogey and the SSS of the course is subtracted from the adjusted total. So, you didn't finish a couple of holes (scratched them) but I have an approximate stroke score for your round.

When you actually have a valid handicap and you scratch a hole, the clause that adjusts big scores down to a nett double bogey for handicap purposes "assigns" a similar nett double bogey to a scratched hole.
But if you took 10 at a par 3 that you had no shot on, it doesn't make any sense to "say" you had a 5 there. For the competition purposes, you took a 10. If you scratched the hole, you would have no score in the strokeplay competition and you'd have an NR but for handicapping purposes you'd be 'assigned' a 5.

Now, @dnjoyce, it's not true to say that if you NR in a strokeplay competition it's an automatic .1 back.
Consider a 10 handicapper who has a disaster on the easy first hole of his par 72 course... goes OOB twice off the tee, makes a nuts of the next ball... hits it up near the green with his 3 wood but when he gets there he can't find it but isn't bothered to go back and re-hit another one so scratches the hole. He plays the next 17 holes in level par.
For the strokeplay competition, he has no score, an NR.
But for handicapping purposes, he has an adjusted gross of 74. If the CSS on the day was 72, he'd have a gross differential of 2, a nett differential of -8 and he'd be cut 1.6.

All this 'adjusting' means in practice is that in strokeplay competitions, your handicap gets adjusted as if it were a stableford round. He scratched the first hole, had 44 points on the other 17 and the CSS was even par so 36 points.

dnjoyce

fair enough - I stand corrected.

PhilipMarlowe

In practice, anyone who has an NR in a strokeplay competition is usually having a horror show so it's usually a .1 back regardless, but it's just not necessarily so

BigBoi83

PhilipMarlowe wrote: »

Ok, the whole thread is weird but I'll give it a go...

The concept of a 'stroke equivalent' for a scratch is kind of looking at things in reverse in a way. The only time I would ever "assign" a stroke equivalent for a scratch would be when assessing 3 cards handed in for handicapping purposes. In this scenario, any big scores (or scratches) are adjusted to a double bogey and the SSS of the course is subtracted from the adjusted total. So, you didn't finish a couple of holes (scratched them) but I have an approximate stroke score for your round...

This seems to answer what I was getting at THANKS....

Hahahaha it seems not just newbies dont fully understand the rules to golf going by how the thread went...

Thanks 2all for your replys

mr.mickels

BigBoi83 wrote: »

This seems to answer what I was getting at THANKS....

Hahahaha it seems not just newbies dont fully understand the rules to golf going by how the thread went...

Thanks 2all for your replys

Not really, it was your question which was misunderstood. By the rules of golf you can't have a scratch hole in strokeplay, if you scratch the hole you are not permitted to return a card.

0161allin

So let me see if i have this right too:
Stroke competion, no such thing as a scratch you finish out the hole even if its a ten or card is invalid or your disqualified etc.. Obviously.

Handicap calculation,eg first 3 cards, All scratches if any are adjusted to a double bogey, like from a 7 on a par4 changed to a 6(+2) and so on..

Handicap adjustment, stableford competion home club etc, a scratch or a recorded ten etc are adjusted to nearest amount of shots that do not give a point in stableford as per players handicap.

Jul3s

mr.mickels wrote: »

By the rules of golf you can't have a scratch hole in strokeplay, if you scratch the hole you are not permitted to return a card

Where you get this ****e from in the first place is anyones guess, but it takes a special talent not to enquire as to the validity of such claims (either from your rule book or the randa website) and it's even more special talent to then repeat it elsewhere as fact.

blackwhite

Jul3s wrote: »

Where you get this ****e from in the first place is anyones guess, but it takes a special talent not to enquire as to the validity of such claims (either from your rule book or the randa website) and it's even more special talent to then repeat it elsewhere as fact.

It takes an even more special talent to refer someone to RANDA without checking to see if you were right or not.

If you scratch a hole (i.e. pick up your ball without finishing) in stroke play then you are disqualified.

Rule 3 - Stroke Play
3-2 Failure to Hole Out
If a competitor fails to hole out at any hole and does not correct his mistake before he makes a stroke on the next teeing ground or, in the case of the last hole of the round, before he leaves the putting green, he is disqualified.

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-of-Golf.aspx#/rules/?ruleNum=3&subRuleNum=2

AldilaMan

blackwhite wrote: »

It takes an even more special talent to refer someone to RANDA without checking to see if you were right or not.

If you scratch a hole (i.e. pick up your ball without finishing) in stroke play then you are disqualified.



http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-of-Golf.aspx#/rules/?ruleNum=3&subRuleNum=2

Being disqualified from a competition doesn't prevent you from completing the round and returning your card for handicap puposes. I agree that you are DQed from the competition once you fail to complete a hole but clause 19.8 will allocate a nett double bogey for unreturned scores. You can have 44 point and not sign your card and be DQed, but you'll still be cut.

dnjoyce

AldilaMan wrote: »

Being disqualified from a competition doesn't prevent you from completing the round and returning your card for handicap puposes. I agree that you are DQed from the competition once you fail to complete a hole but clause 19.8 will allocate a nett double bogey for unreturned scores. You can have 44 point and not sign your card and be DQed, but you'll still be cut.

While I am not doubting for a second that this is true - it really doesn't sit well with me that someone can (potentially) be rewarded for not even bothering to adhere to the competition rules of the day - the most likely scenario resulting in a scratch in stroke play is not wanting to walk back to the tee or previous position to replay a shot - if you can't be bothered doing this, then you should forfeit the right to get cut, in my humble opinion :P

Jul3s

blackwhite wrote: »

It takes an even more special talent to refer someone to RANDA without checking to see if you were right or not.

If you scratch a hole (i.e. pick up your ball without finishing) in stroke play then you are disqualified.



http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-of-Golf.aspx#/rules/?ruleNum=3&subRuleNum=2

It's the most special talent of all to skim read a post or two in a thread and assume you understand what is being discussed and then go and search the internet for an answer to a question that wasn't posed in the first place, well played sir well played, I bow to your superior specialness.

AldilaMan

dnjoyce wrote: »

While I am not doubting for a second that this is true - it really doesn't sit well with me that someone can (potentially) be rewarded for not even bothering to adhere to the competition rules of the day - the most likely scenario resulting in a scratch in stroke play is not wanting to walk back to the tee or previous position to replay a shot - if you can't be bothered doing this, then you should forfeit the right to get cut, in my humble opinion :P

In fairness to some poor sod who has just dumped his 3rd ball into the water and is now playing his 9th shot to a par 4 - he just wants to get out of there with his dignity intact.

I don't think getting cut is a reward - it's just an honest reflection of your playing ability. I would prefer to see others trying harder to get cut than ripping up their card and getting .1 back.

As regards forfeiting the right to be cut - don't get me started.

ernieprice

Here is the exact wording from "CONGU UNIFIED HANDICAPPING SYSTEM 2008-2011" book. As I have previously stated this book is available from your home club.




19. STABLEFORD/NETT DOUBLE BOGEY ADJUSTMENT

The purpose of the Stableford Adjustment is to place a limit on the maximum score that can be recorded at any hole in order to make handicaps more representative of a player's potential ability. This control is for handicap purposes only. It has been introduced to lessen the impact of the occasional 'bad ' score on players Stroke Play return and to reduce the incidence of 'No Returns' that can,on occasions,represent an undesirable proportion of the competition entry. It also allows a player who does not complete a hole,for any reason,to continue to record a score for handicap purposes, thus sustaining his golf interest and at the same time providing useful handicap information. It is important that competitors are made aware of the intent of this clause and encouraged to the advantage of it. The Stableford Adjustment should be applied to all Stroke Play Qualifying Scores irrespective of whether they are made at the Home Club or at another club. See Clause 8.10(a).

BigBoi83

mr.mickels wrote: »

Not really, it was your question which was misunderstood. By the rules of golf you can't have a scratch hole in strokeplay, if you scratch the hole you are not permitted to return a card.

Yes my question was misunderstood and i thought i explained myself there and gave the appropriate aploigies for my not being clear....
However if you read though the thread before and after my comments people are discussing the rules of golf scoring and all seem to have a different understanding of what the rules meant....

So YES it seems not only beginners have issues with some aspects of golf

PhilipMarlowe

People are getting confused, some with the rush to get in a 'smart' jibe perhaps...

Under the "Rules" of golf (which is where you'd be directed to the R&A for guidance), you can't have a scratch in a strokeplay event and have a card to return. If you don't finish out a hole you don't have a score...
Rule 3-2 deals with this: (Failure to Hole Out)
If a competitor fails to hole out at any hole and does not correct his mistake before he makes a stroke on the next teeing ground or, in the case of the last hole of the round, before he leaves the putting green, he is disqualified.

However, the R&A have precious little to say about handicapping (CONGU is where it's at) and it is for the interests of handicapping that you are "allowed" to return a card and the nett double bogey (stableford) adjustment is taken into account. This limits the effect of an 'uncharacteristic bad hole' or a hole with no score returned in a strokeplay event on your handicap. It still doesn't alter the fact that if you have a scratch in a strokeplay event, you're DQ'ed under the "rules".

mr.mickels

Jul3s wrote: »

Where you get this ****e from in the first place is anyones guess, but it takes a special talent not to enquire as to the validity of such claims (either from your rule book or the randa website) and it's even more special talent to then repeat it elsewhere as fact.

And you are a special kind of twit. I was a scratch player in my mid-teens, played inter-county golf in UK for a number of years and played alongside some of todays pro players while they were in the amateur ranks, before I stopped playing golf 15 years ago. Unless the rules of the game have changed wildly (which we can assume they haven't) in stroke play a score must be returned at each hole, otherwise the card is void.

Your attempts at being smart give you an unfavourable impression, as I said, a special kind of twit.

Corkblowin

mr.mickels wrote: »

And you are a special kind of twit. I was a scratch player in my mid-teens, played inter-county golf in UK for a number of years and played alongside some of todays pro players while they were in the amateur ranks, before I stopped playing golf 15 years ago.

It's sweet how you give your CV in every thread you post in

mr.mickels

Corkblowin wrote: »

It's sweet how you give your CV in every thread you post in

He asked where I "got this from", perhaps he had the idea I didn't play before.

Tones69

Corkblowin wrote: »

It's sweet how you give your CV in every thread you post in

Quite an impressive CV to be fair though

Jul3s

mr.mickels wrote: »

Not really, it was your question which was misunderstood. By the rules of golf you can't have a scratch hole in strokeplay, if you scratch the hole you are not permitted to return a card.

mr.mickels wrote: »

And you are a special kind of twit. I was a scratch player in my mid-teens, played inter-county golf in UK for a number of years and played alongside some of todays pro players while they were in the amateur ranks, before I stopped playing golf 15 years ago. Unless the rules of the game have changed wildly (which we can assume they haven't) in stroke play a score must be returned at each hole, otherwise the card is void.

Your attempts at being smart give you an unfavourable impression, as I said, a special kind of twit.

Impressive list of alleged achievements, which makes it even more amazing that none of your "friends" ever explained to you that you can be disqualified (for not completing a hole in stroke play) and still return a card.

GreeBo

Drop it or lose it lads, this is getting boring.

ernieprice

There are 2 different aspects to this article.
(1) A score card returned in a STROKE play competition with no score recorded on 1 or more holes is classed as a no return (N/R) and allows a player to receive a .1 upward adjustment to his handicap.
(2) Clause 19 allows for a players card to be adjusted to a 2 over nett score for handicap purposes for a bad hole. This can sometimes produce a reduction in handicap. A Player could have 17 good holes and 1 really bad hole with the result that his final score might not properly reflect his playing ability. This is the reason clause 19 was introduced.