Saorview Name and Logo

Dougal.

Hi all I have read a few threads regarding the abuse of the Saorview Logo by installers. Is it just the Logo or is the Saorview Name also not allowed to be used by installers. There is an installer driving around Gorey with the words Saorview approved Installer plastered all over his Van is what he is doing wrong or has he been approved by Saorview. The reason I ask this is that there are many other installers using the name Saorview on home-made flyers also going around. Looking on the the NET there are many guys advertising Saorview some of them are using the Logo some of them are just using the name. To an ordinary member of the Public this is very confusing as to who is the right installer to get to supply this new system.

St Senan

Dougal no installer in Ireland can use the word Saorview or the Name or Logo in advertising or on Flyers, Clothing, Vans and Websites even if the installer is Legit and registered with 1 of the 3 recognised bodies or not be legit the installer still cant use the Name and Logo. The Saorview name and logo can only be used by registered Retailers to sell Saorview approved T.V.s and Receivers over the counter or on-line . Although there are guys using the Name and Logo in a roundabout way to sell and Advertise. As I have said before Saorview/RTE will have to act hard on this. There is nothing stopping installers using an add with the words Irish digital channels or Irish DTT . Regarding the guy in Gorey people up there should be warned that he is using a name and logo that belong to RTE and what he is doing is wrong and illegal. Its all here http://www.saorview.ie/make-the-switch/understand-what-you-need-avoid-scams/. Here are the only guys who can Advertise saorview in Gorey. http://www.saorview.ie/products-retailers/find-a-retailer/?county=31&town=Gorey&btsumbit=Search# and as you see they are Retail shops.

watty

www.techtir.ie and www.saortv.info both contacted by RTE regarding use of the Saorview Logo.

We successfully argued since the sites are informational / Magazine and not selling anything that it was "fair use" like a printed newspaper doing an article on RTE. Also Techtir (who run Saortv.info) had previously registered with RTE publicity Dept for Media use of RTE logos and has an account and password to download "official" RTE files for Media use.

Many other websites however did have to remove Saorview logos. So I imagine they will get round to individual traders eventually.

Neither site has any official standing of course.

Dougal.

scaller wrote: »

Dougal no installer in Ireland can use the word Saorview or the Name or Logo in advertising or on Flyers, Clothing, Vans and Websites even if the installer is Legit and registered with 1 of the 3 recognised bodies or not be legit the installer still cant use the Name and Logo. The Saorview name and logo can only be used by registered Retailers to sell Saorview approved T.V.s and Receivers over the counter or on-line . Although there are guys using the Name and Logo in a roundabout way to sell and Advertise. As I have said before Saorview/RTE will have to act hard on this. There is nothing stopping installers using an add with the words Irish digital channels or Irish DTT . Regarding the guy in Gorey people up there should be warned that he is using a name and logo that belong to RTE and what he is doing is wrong and illegal. Its all here http://www.saorview.ie/make-the-switch/understand-what-you-need-avoid-scams/. Here are the only guys who can Advertise saorview in Gorey. http://www.saorview.ie/products-retailers/find-a-retailer/?county=31&town=Gorey&btsumbit=Search# and as you see they are Retail shops.

Scaller that sums up what i was thinking. I do buy stuff from 1 of those shops so i will check with them. Any how you say that installers that are with the 3 recognised bodies cant use the Saorview logo or Name. But if you look there are registered installers with these bodies that are using the Saorview Name and Logo so surely what they are doing is wrong and Illegal.

St Senan

Dougal. wrote: »

Any how you say that installers that are with the 3 recognised bodies cant use the Saorview logo or Name. But if you look there are registered installers with these bodies that are using the Saorview Name and Logo so surely what they are doing is wrong and Illegal.

Dougal. All I can say about that is for you to contact the Recognised bodies and tell them that some of there members are abusing the Logo.
Or contact
http://www.saorview.ie/contact/
http://www.nca.ie/eng/Contact%20Us/Contact%20Us.html

NewHillel

scaller wrote: »

Dougal no installer in Ireland can use the word Saorview or the Name or Logo in advertising or on Flyers, Clothing, Vans and Websites even if the installer is Legit and registered with 1 of the 3 recognised bodies or not be legit the installer still cant use the Name and Logo. The Saorview name and logo can only be used by registered Retailers to sell Saorview approved T.V.s and Receivers ...

To my knowledge anyone can use the word Saorview, or the name. The issue is misuse of the Logo, or misrepresenting equipment as Saorview Approved or an individual as misrepresenting an individual or business as being associated, or otherwise approved by Saorview. The same applies to misuse of other Logos, such as the Freesat one.

Whether the individual, or company, is one of the 'three registered bodies' is not relevant. Misuse of Logos is not a legal issue.

St Senan

NewHillel wrote: »

To my knowledge anyone can use the word Saorview, or the name. The issue is misuse of the Logo, or misrepresenting equipment as Saorview Approved or an individual as misrepresenting an individual or business as being associated, or otherwise approved by Saorview. The same applies to misuse of other Logos, such as the Freesat one.

Whether the individual, or company, is one of the 'three registered bodies' is not relevant. Misuse of Logos is not a legal issue.

Contact Ray Maguire at Saorview he will tell you different.

NewHillel

scaller wrote: »

Contact Ray Maguire at Saorview he will tell you different.

What part is wrong, in your opinion?

St Senan

NewHillel wrote: »

What part is wrong, in your opinion?

Originally Posted by NewHillel
anyone can use the word Saorview, or the name.

Only registered retailers can use the name and Logo to promote or sell approved T.V.s or receivers.

Ray Maguire, at Saorview will let you know who can or cant use the Name and Logo.

Tony

Its my understanding from a meeting with Ray Maguire that RTE claim full rights over the use of the word saorview and it should not be used by others without permission.

St Senan

Tony wrote: »

Its my understanding from a meeting with Ray Maguire that RTE claim full rights over the use of the word saorview and it should not be used by others without permission.

Thats exactly what the Saorview team said at the Saorview Seminar last April in Dublin.

darth_maul

scaller wrote: »

Thats exactly what the Saorview team said at the Saorview Seminar last April in Dublin.

Don't think that they can stop the use of the word Saorview, how else is anyone who doesn't sell equipment let people know that they support this service. The ordinary joe soaper won't know what DTT is. If that is the case they are taking the whole thing way too far

Tony

darth_maul wrote: »

Don't think that they can stop the use of the word Saorview,

They can if they wish to as its copyright

cast_iron

Tony wrote: »

They can if they wish to as its copyright

So no installer can use the word Saorview? That's what you are saying as installers are not a "point of sale" for a Saorview box really.

NewHillel

scaller wrote: »

Only registered retailers can use the name and Logo to promote or sell approved T.V.s or receivers.

Ray Maguire, at Saorview will let you know who can or cant use the Name and Logo.

So, if I have a Saorview Approved TV, that I want to sell privately, I can't use the word Saorview in an ad?? Right, that's most certainly a new interpretation of Copyright Law.

A retailer, registered or not, can sell Saorview Approved TV 's. The designation 'Saorview Approved' applies to the equipment, not the retailer. A registered Saorview Agent applies to the retailer, who may have, as you say, exclusive rights to use the Logo in promotional material.
There is no such thing as a Freesat or Saorview Installer, as the Type Approval applies to equipment. This is why use of either logo by Installers is misrepresentation.

Johnboy1951

Whether they like it or not, the expression "Saorview channels" will be used to describe the Irish DTT free to air service.
They will not be able to prevent that. In fact they are promoting it.

If someone has a piece of equipment to sell and it receives those Saorview channels, even if the device is not 'Saorview approved', then it will be described as receiving Saorview. As it has here on Boards.

The logo and 'Saorview Approved' designation will be covered ..... but not the use of Saorview as a generic term for Irish DTT.

Tony

cast_iron wrote: »

So no installer can use the word Saorview? That's what you are saying as installers are not a "point of sale" for a Saorview box really.

RTE's position is that no one can use the word Saorview or the Saorview logo for commercial purposes without permission.

Tony

NewHillel wrote: »

The designation 'Saorview Approved' applies to the equipment, not the retailer.

Wrong, it applies to both separately. A retailer must apply to RTE to become a registered Saorview retailer

cast_iron

Tony wrote: »

RTE's position is that no one can use the word Saorview or the Saorview logo for commercial purposes without permission.

While that may well be the case Tony, it's wholly impractical to enforce.
You can't regulate the selling of tv boxes and nor should they. This means an entirely free market, just like buying a bar of chocolate. The whole "registered retailer" idea is a bit silly really. Sure Saorview don't really push that fact either, and the list is "somewhere" on the website.
To me, it's a token to aid those willing to do the research so they won't get caught out buying wrong equipment at the start of the changeover.

Tony

I've no idea what the practicalites are to enforce this but bear in mind if they choose to enforce they have the weight of copyright law to back them up . They are also a semi state company so normal common sense may not apply since they are spending someone elses money doing it.

From my meetings with members of the saorview team and my understanding of their position they would certainly not share your view . I don't agree its a token jesture either , they made it very clear to me and my colleague that they were not in favour at all of non Saorview appoved boxes being used and actively discouraged them in the early days by turning off RTE 2 SD until political pressure forced them to turn it back on for a temporary period.

I also do not think it should be a burden on potential customers to do a lot of research (some is always wise) , the burden should fall on the retailer to be clear on what exactly is being offered so that the consumer can make an informed choice ,whether that be saorview approved or not as the case may be.

They are not trying to regulate the selling of boxes but by controlling the use of the term/logo saorview at least its a clear indication that the box will work and provide all of the features. This is especially useful for many people who are not technicially literate (why should we expect them to be ) and are simply interested in the benefits and not the technology.

Sorry for the long post.

cast_iron wrote: »

While that may well be the case Tony, it's wholly impractical to enforce.
You can't regulate the selling of tv boxes and nor should they. This means an entirely free market, just like buying a bar of chocolate. The whole "registered retailer" idea is a bit silly really. Sure Saorview don't really push that fact either, and the list is "somewhere" on the website.
To me, it's a token to aid those willing to do the research so they won't get caught out buying wrong equipment at the start of the changeover.

cast_iron

Tony wrote: »

From my meetings with members of the saorview team and my understanding of their position they would certainly not share your view . I don't agree its a token jesture either , they made it very clear to me and my colleague that they were not in favour at all of non Saorview appoved boxes being used and actively discouraged them in the early days by turning off RTE 2 SD until political pressure forced them to turn it back on for a temporary period.

I don't disagree with anything you say there.
However, I never claimed they would be in favour non-approved boxes.

I also do not think it should be a burden on potential customers to do a lot of research (some is always wise) , the burden should fall on the retailer to be clear on what exactly is being offered so that the consumer can make an informed choice ,whether that be saorview approved or not as the case may be.

Fully agree. Anyone would expect that of a good retailer. And if the retailer is registered with Saorview, it should be all the more comforting for the consumer. I just can't see Saorview's website list as being of great use in encouraging people where to buy. People tend to use trusted retailers and will not change too easily.

They are not trying to regulate the selling of boxes but by controlling the use of the term/logo saorview at least its a clear indication that the box will work and provide all of the features. This is especially useful for many people who are not technicially literate (why should we expect them to be ) and are simply interested in the benefits and not the technology.

That's only true in a very limited way. They do have a way of ensuring people are using fully compliant boxes - the big obvious "Saorview approved" sticker.

Tony

cast_iron wrote: »

However, I never claimed they would be in favour non-approved boxes.

I did not mean to suggest you did , my point was that they were strong in their views and this would not be a "token jesture" as you suggested.

cast_iron wrote: »

That's only true in a very limited way. They do have a way of ensuring people are using fully compliant boxes - the big obvious "Saorview approved" sticker.

While the cannot ensure people are using approved boxes (unless by technical means) by limitimng the use of the word saorview they at least can ensure to some degree that people do not buy boxes that they think are somehow approved by saorview which is really the point of the thread is it not ?

You seem to be making my argument for me

cast_iron

Tony wrote: »

You seem to be making my argument for me

Not quite. MY point was that the "Saorview Approved" sticker was sufficient enough as a guide to fully compliant boxes, and that the word/logo can't be practically copyrighted and policed.
When you think about it, it will be our only national terrestrial tv service. Is it not a bit strange that the word to describe such a service is copyrighted?

Tony

cast_iron wrote: »

Is it not a bit strange that the word to describe such a service is copyrighted?

Not strange at all, Freesat and Freeview are copyrighted

watty

The free to use name is Irish Digital Television, or Irish Digital Terrestrial Television (Irish DTT).

Or Irish channels on DTT.

Saorview is a platform / System. More than DTT and TV channels.

Johnboy1951

watty wrote: »

The free to use name is Irish Digital Television, or Irish Digital Terrestrial Television (Irish DTT).

Or Irish channels on DTT.

Saorview is a platform / System. More than DTT and TV channels.

That may be the case but ...... in practical terms the use of Saorview will, I believe, become the generic term for those, and thus will be used whether RTE like it or not.

So I fully expect to hear people selling non-approved boxes that can receive "Saorview channels". I do not believe RTE will be able to prevent this.

Tony

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I do not believe RTE will be able to prevent this.

Of course they will if they choose to , they have the law on their side. Seems there is a lack of understanding here of exactly what copyright means and what remedies are available to RTE if they choose to go down that path.

sesswhat

There seems to be confusion between copyright and trademarks.

Copyright is an automatic protection which exists for the creator of some form of work, such as artwork, a recording or published text. Single words, or even phrases, are not protected in this way. It would be completely impractical if they were. Copyright does not come into the issues talked about here at all.

However, a single word can be protected as part of a Trademark. SAORVIEW and SAORVIEW TV are both trademarks registered in Europe by RTE. Trademarks are mostly concerned with identifying the origin of goods or services. This is what is relevant to discussion about logos on vans, or equipment being misrepresented as being Saorview certified.

Johnboy1951

Tony wrote: »

Of course they will if they choose to , they have the law on their side. Seems there is a lack of understanding here of exactly what copyright means and what remedies are available to RTE if they choose to go down that path.

Just like anyone can sell a device capable of receiving "Freesat channels" even though it is not a Freesat compliant device .... the same applies to "Saorview channels" being received on a non approved (by Saorview) device.

The trademark is not being infringed.

Tony

RTE's view as I understand it is that they invented the word so they believe that its is protected by both copyright and trademark. I take your point though that trademark is the more relevant of the two items in this case.

sesswhat wrote: »

There seems to be confusion between copyright and trademarks.

.

Tony

Perhaps but the particular wording used by the trader goes beyond that . If he used the wording you refer to I think there would be less of an outcry by the guys in Wexford.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Just like anyone can sell a device capable of receiving "Freesat channels" even though it is not a Freesat compliant device .... the same applies to "Saorview channels" being received on a non approved (by Saorview) device.

The trademark is not being infringed.

STB

cast_iron wrote: »

Not quite. MY point was that the "Saorview Approved" sticker was sufficient enough as a guide to fully compliant boxes, and that the word/logo can't be practically copyrighted and policed.
When you think about it, it will be our only national terrestrial tv service. Is it not a bit strange that the word to describe such a service is copyrighted?

SAORVIEW Approved Set-Top-Boxes and iDTVs
SAORVIEW established a receiver (set-top-box and iDTV) approval process to reassure consumers that Approved receivers will work with all aspects of the SAORVIEW service.

For more information on receiver specifications go to www.saorview.ie

Only SAORVIEW Approved receivers will be allowed to carry the official SAORVIEW logo (see below) on their packaging and marketing materials.
SAORVIEW recommends that consumers wishing to avail of the SAORVIEW service only purchase SAORVIEW Approved set-top-boxes or iDTVs.


Understand what you need

It is important to understand what you need, and what you don’t need, to receive the SAORVIEW service. If after reading through this booklet you
are still unsure as to what to do, you should call the SAORVIEW information line Lo Call 1890 222 012, visit the SAORVIEW website: www.saorview.ie or
speak with a SAORVIEW registered retailer or local TV installer/installation company.

Unfortunately there are always traders who will try to take advantage of people on the back of something new, like the change to digital television. As a general rule, if an offer seems too good to be true – in a leaflet, advert, by phone, e-mail or personal approach – it probably is. Be wary and read the details of the deal carefully.

If you think you’ve been deceived or misled in relation to the purchase of digital TV receiving equipment, for example a TV, set-top-box, aerial or satellite dish or the installation of any of this equipment, contact the National Consumer Agency on 1890 432 432 or 01 402 5555.

The National Consumer Agency have prepared independent information on digital television for consumers. It is available on their website:
www.consumerconnect.ie

Johnboy1951

Tony wrote: »

Perhaps but the particular wording used by the trader goes beyond that . If he used the wording you refer to I think there would be less of an outcry by the guys in Wexford.

Maybe so, but I thought - in the absence of direct info about what his 'spiel' was - that there was overreaction.
He is not the first to have less than exact 'advertising' and likely not the last (accepting that his hand written 'poster' was advertising).

... and no I have no connection that I am aware of with the seller- I don't know who he is-, and have never visited the Wexford market.

So what I read was an ambiguous poster which did not define whether the STB was approved or not; no idea if the seller correctly informed customers if the STB was not approved and had limitations. Yes based on price one could assume the STB was not approved, but it would be going a bit far to make assumptions about the info the seller provided, IMO.

regards.

Tony

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Maybe so, but I thought - in the absence of direct info about what his 'spiel' was - that there was overreaction.

Perhaps so but since the thread started I did some checking and theres a lot of anger amongst the trade guys in Wexford so any reaction would be coloured by this

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

He is not the first to have less than exact 'advertising' and likely not the last (accepting that his hand written 'poster' was advertising).

I would agree with that

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

... and no I have no connection that I am aware of with the seller- I don't know who he is-,

I don't think anyone would question that, certainly nothing you have written could lead any reasonable person to think you had any connection.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Yes based on price one could assume the STB was not approved, but it would be going a bit far to make assumptions about the info the seller provided, IMO.
regards.

Thats a generous view of the guys intentions, unless he is selling below cost theres no way he can sell an approved box with a kit etc at that price.

sesswhat

Tony wrote: »

RTE's view as I understand it is that they invented the word so they believe that its is protected by both copyright and trademark.

Saorview is just a half-Irish version of Freeview, which is itself simply two words stuck together. If 'Saorview' and 'Freeview' are works protected by copyright, then RTE would be in infringment of copyright with their derivative work. The fact is that it applies to neither.

It may be wishful thinking on the part of RTE to think that copyright applies but nothing more.

Johnboy1951

Tony wrote: »

Perhaps so but since the thread started I did some checking and theres a lot of anger amongst the trade guys in Wexford so any reaction would be coloured by this

I can understand the anger where clear misrepresentation is in play. Unfortunately that was not clear in this particular case - at least to this reader.

Thats a generous view of the guys intentions, unless he is selling below cost theres no way he can sell an approved box with a kit etc at that price.

Not so much generous .... but based on the info available I could not condemn the seller.
I am not saying he is doing no wrong ..... he may be, or not ..... but some more info is needed to draw that conclusion.

I note that with some luck we may have more info about the situation after your visit to the area.

I look forward to your post if you get there in time.

regards.

Tony

Yeah hopefully I'll get a chance to meet the guy

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I look forward to your post if you get there in time.

regards.

Tony

sesswhat wrote: »

It may be wishful thinking on the part of RTE to think that copyright applies but nothing more.

Well if they decide to pursue it will be a court that decides whether their view is correct or not. At this point opinion is not fact.

scruffy66

watty wrote: »

The free to use name is Irish Digital Television, or Irish Digital Terrestrial Television (Irish DTT).

Or Irish channels on DTT.

Saorview is a platform / System. More than DTT and TV channels.

What about using the term saor-view or saor/view or saor[dtt]view or soarview or saor,view or some other variation .

Why have saorview not put a condition on all the retailers that they have
approved , that they can only sell saorview approved boxes and tv's and stop putting it on the installer to only use approved boxes.

scruffy66

STB [Unfortunately there are always traders who will try to take advantage of people on the back of something new, like the change to digital television. As a general rule, if an offer seems too good to be true – in a leaflet, advert, by phone, e-mail or personal approach – it probably is. Be wary and read the details of the deal carefully.].QUOTE]

Are SAORVIEW referring to retailers like DID , POWERCITY , HARVEY NORMAN ETC,

These are retailers who have been saorview approved and have saorview stickers on saorview approved boxes and tv's right next to boxes and tv's
that can receive saorview channels but dont have mpeg 5, which one do
they push more the approved ones or the ones that have a better mark up.

Seems to be a double standard here

Tony

That would be illegal

scruffy66 wrote: »

Why have saorview not put a condition on all the retailers that they have
approved , that they can only sell saorview approved boxes and tv's and stop putting it on the installer to only use approved boxes.

scruffy66

Tony wrote: »

That would be illegal

Obviously, i was just pointing to the double standard.

Tony ,Do freeview use digital teletext or any other European broadcaster
and if so how do they broadcast it.

Tony

scruffy66 wrote: »

Obviously, i was just pointing to the double standard.

Tony ,Do freeview use digital teletext or any other European broadcaster
and if so how do they broadcast it.

Honestly no idea as I've never dealt with freeview boxes.

byte

Freeview use MHEG5, same as Saorview.

Some other Euro broadcasters, I believe, use MHP

lawhec

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Just like anyone can sell a device capable of receiving "Freesat channels" even though it is not a Freesat compliant device .... the same applies to "Saorview channels" being received on a non approved (by Saorview) device.

The trademark is not being infringed.

Freesat is not marketed to viewers in the Republic of Ireland however. It is of little concern of the Freesat consortium if their service is being mis-sold outside the UK. However if a dealer was selling generic FTA receivers in the UK as being "Freesat" or "Freesat Compatible"* when they are not, then they would take a very dim view of the infringer, sending out at least a Cease and Desist Order.

* "Freesat from Sky" isn't seen as an infringement as it was formally launched before Freesat, and is distinctly being offered by Sky.

Just to expand on what Byte has said, the MHEG5 profile for Saorview is the same one as used by Freeview in the UK. Users of MHEG on Freeview include the BBC, Teletext, Sky, Television X and Red Hot TV. Probably a couple of others. It is possible to use MHEG for a simple encryption system. In Continental Europe, some countries have simply transferred their WST Teletext services on to their DVB-T services (the same way it is done in Ireland) that is available by the text button on a STB or TV remote.

scruffy66

byte wrote: »

Freeview use MHEG5, same as Saorview.

Some other Euro broadcasters, I believe, use MHP

That should eventually make mpeg 5 standard in all TV'S , so every TV sold could have digital teletext.

Now if SAORVIEW could encourage manufacturers to make saorview
approved combo boxes instead of charging them , we might have more
to choose from and the price might drop.

This will encourage installers to use saorview approved combo boxes.

After all in a recession , the customer is being dictated to by price.

All though i agree people should not use somebodies logo without
permission , in this case i think its like saying it shouldn't rain.

The Cush

byte wrote: »

Freeview use MHEG5, same as Saorview.

Some other Euro broadcasters, I believe, use MHP

Yes MHP is the continential standard but at least 1 broadcaster is shutting down its MHP service due to lack of viewer interest. HbbTV appears to be the future.

Some European DTT broadcasters continue to use the traditional EBU teletext on their DTT services e.g. Holland, Germany.

The Cush

scruffy66 wrote: »

Now if SAORVIEW could encourage manufacturers to make saorview
approved combo boxes instead of charging them , we might have more
to choose from and the price might drop.

Saorview doesn't charge manufacturers. Testing is carried out independently of RTÉ, by Teracom for a fee.

Saorview approvals process

Tony

Honestly thats splitting hairs, Teracom are contracted to Saorview to carry out the testing. Either way a fee of 20K has to be paid by the manufacturer which for the size of this market is unrealistic hence the small number of approved devices. And since RTE dictated the spec its hardly independent.

The Cush wrote: »

Saorview doesn't charge manufacturers. Testing is carried out independently of RTÉ, by Teracom for a fee.

Saorview approvals process

The Cush

Tony wrote: »

Honestly thats splitting hairs,

The point was Saorview doesn't charge for testing, Teracom does to a standard set by Nordig and RTÉ.

Should RTÉ subsidise the testing?

Tony

They do charge by default, to suggest otherwise is frankly ridiculous .The real point is that certification is too expensive and deters manufacturers from entering the market. To get certification you have to pay 20K , does not matter who cashes the cheque its still 20k.

As scruffy points out they should be encouraging more manufacturers not deterring them , their arrogance led them to believe that they would have a line of manufacturers waiting to get on board.

The Cush wrote: »

The point was Saorview doesn't charge for testing, Teracom does to a standard set by Nordig and RTÉ.