Ultimate hypocrisy: Israel threatens to support terrorism

Monty Burnz

“We’ll exact a price from Erdogan that will prove to him that messing with Israel doesn’t pay off,” Mr Lieberman was quoted as saying. “Turkey better treat us with respect and common decency.”

The measures proposed by Mr Lieberman include meetings with representatives of the militant PKK Kurdish group, which has recently stepped up its attacks on the Turkish military.

I'm kind of flabbergasted by this: Israel is now moving towards supporting terrorist attacks against a sovereign democracy. Exactly how does this differ from Iran supporting terrorist attacks against Israel?

Is there anything Israeli politicians will not try to justify?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2011/0910/1224303851405.html?via=mr

Boulevardier

Completely agree. This is not the sort of thing the world needs to hear on the 10th anniversary of 9/11.

In any case, Libermann is a nazi.

RMD

What I am looking forward is seeing America's response to this. America always seem to come through and support Israel no matter how severe the situation or the Israeli actions. It will be interesting to see if America are willing to contradict their "war on terror" in support of Israel.

anymore

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'm kind of flabbergasted by this: Israel is now moving towards supporting terrorist attacks against a sovereign democracy. Exactly how does this differ from Iran supporting terrorist attacks against Israel?

Is there anything Israeli politicians will not try to justify?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2011/0910/1224303851405.html?via=mr

But surely supporting indigenous peoples trying to establish thier own homelands is supposed to be a good thing in the Middle east ???????

Or does this only apply if they happen to be politically correct Palestinians ?

A Dub in Glasgo

I don't really see them being hypocritical considering they are a terrorist state anyway

anymore

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

I don't really see them being hypocritical considering they are a terrorist state anyway

If by terrorist state, you mean Israel refused to roll over and play dead - they tried that before- then perhaps you are right.

Nodin

anymore wrote: »

If by terrorist state, you mean Israel refused to roll over and play dead - they tried that before- then perhaps you are right.

I believe he's referring to the occupation, colonisation, assasination of opponents abroad, support of terrorist organisations in lebanon..........

anymore

Nodin wrote: »

I believe he's referring to the occupation, colonisation, assasination of opponents abroad, support of terrorist organisations in lebanon..........

Dont forget one of Israels' other great sins in this region ... treating women as equals

Monty Burnz

anymore wrote: »

Dont forget one of Israels' other great sins in this region ... treating women as equals

It's almost like you've nothing to say about the Israeli state threatening to support terrorism.

A Dub in Glasgo

anymore wrote: »

If by terrorist state, you mean Israel refused to roll over and play dead - they tried that before- then perhaps you are right.

Nope. I mean they are a state which carries out terrorist actions and funds others to carry out terrorist actions

nacho libre

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'm kind of flabbergasted by this: Israel is now moving towards supporting terrorist attacks against a sovereign democracy. Exactly how does this differ from Iran supporting terrorist attacks against Israel?

Is there anything Israeli politicians will not try to justify?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2011/0910/1224303851405.html?via=mr

You obviously aren't aware who helped set up Hamas to begin with to weaken the PLO.

Then there was Mark Regev denying Israelis were training Kurdish militants in Northern Iraq.

anymore

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Nope. I mean they are a state which carries out terrorist actions and funds others to carry out terrorist actions

Dont you mean Iran or Pakistan or Russia or britain or...erc etc..............

Monty Burnz

anymore wrote: »

Dont you mean Iran or Pakistan or Russia or britain or...erc etc..............

Anymore, I'd really rather hear your thoughts about this threat than for you to continue to muddy the water with unrelated matters. If you have no comment, that's fair enough.

HellsAngel

anymore wrote: »

Dont forget one of Israels' other great sins in this region ... treating women as equals

I suppose murdering Palestinian women in Gaza by raining down bombs on them is yet another fine example of Israel 'respect' for women ?

And of course the brave macho boys of the Israeli army are a fine example of Israel's respect for women ??

anymore

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Anymore, I'd really rather hear your thoughts about this threat than for you to continue to muddy the water with unrelated matters. If you have no comment, that's fair enough.

Israel and Turkey were for decades military partners, so let us put this temporary spat as a piece of internal politicking inside Turkey. If Israel is an terrorist state, then by those standards, Turkey undoubtedly is and has been for far far longer than Israel. Need i remind you turkey is still in illegal occupying of art of Cyrus and is still waging war against minorities and oppressing religious groups within its own borders.

HellsAngel

anymore wrote: »

Israel and Turkey were for decades military partners, so let us put this temporary spat as a piece of internal politicking inside Turkey. If Israel is an terrorist state, then by those standards, Turkey undoubtedly is and has been for far far longer than Israel. Need i remind you turkey is still in illegal occupying of art of Cyrus and is still waging war against minorities and oppressing religious groups within its own borders.

" illegal occupying ........ waging war against minorities and oppressing religious groups within its own borders " Sounds just like Israel to me.

Batsy

Boulevardier wrote: »

In any case, Libermann is a nazi.

A Jewish Nazi? Yeah, right.

Next you'll be accusing Martin McGuinness of being an Orangeman and the Archbishop of Canterbury of being a member of Maria Duce.

Batsy

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

I don't really see them being hypocritical considering they are a terrorist state anyway

No, they aren't.

A Dub in Glasgo

Batsy wrote: »

No, they aren't.

Quite right, not hypocritical at all

Batsy

anymore wrote: »

Dont forget one of Israels' other great sins in this region ... treating women as equals

And being a parliamentary democracy with universal suffrage.

If a woman in Iran or Syria or some other neighbouring Muslime state tried to vote in an election she'd be buried up to her chest in sand and stoned to death.

Yet to hear some people on this forum you'd think that Israel - the ONLY democracy in that region - is the evil one.

Batsy

http://www.aish.com/jw/me/48893062.html

Jaafa

Usually I'm fairly outspoken about Israel but I don't see the big deal here. Almost every nation in the region has supported what some other nation see as a 'terrorist group' at one point or another. Frankly it's the status quo. Anyone every hear of the SLA?

HellsAngel

Batsy wrote: »

And being a parliamentary democracy with universal suffrage.

If a woman in Iran or Syria or some other neighbouring Muslime state tried to vote in an election she'd be buried up to her chest in sand and stoned to death.

Yet to hear some people on this forum you'd think that Israel - the ONLY democracy in that region - is the evil one.

That will be great news to Palestinian women now won't it.

Monty Burnz

I don't usually post on threads about Israel/Palestine - is this level of obfuscation normal?

I thought this was fairly straightforward: Israel is threatening an alliance of some sort with an internationally acknowledged terrorist group. I think this is amazing hypocrisy on their part, and means that their criticism of Iran etc. can now be disregarded as it is clearly a tactic that they feel is acceptable for themselves.

I'm not really that interested in how democratic Israel is or is not, or how women can or can't vote elsewhere, or the price of rice in China. Please feel free to start threads on those topics if you wish to discuss them.

Jaafa

Batsy wrote: »

And being a parliamentary democracy with universal suffrage.

If a woman in Iran or Syria or some other neighbouring Muslime state tried to vote in an election she'd be buried up to her chest in sand and stoned to death.

Yet to hear some people on this forum you'd think that Israel - the ONLY democracy in that region - is the evil one.

You are extremely misinformed.

Women were granted to right to vote in 1963 in Iran. They serve in government and hold several high ranking positions such as heads of University's.

The same is true of Syria. Although its is true they aren't a democracy.

Sunnyisland

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I don't usually post on threads about Israel/Palestine - is this level of obfuscation normal?

Yes. But it can make good reading imo.

Nodin

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I don't usually post on threads about Israel/Palestine - is this level of obfuscation normal?

..........

Theres normally a high level, though its been particularily bad lately.

brimal

Yet another pointless Israel thread.

These PKK meetings were a suggestion, along with many other suggestions, that were put forward by a team of officials working for Lieberman. These are purely hypothetical ideas for all situations that may occur over the coming months.

Netanyahu has distanced himself from the comments, and another source who was involved in the talks had this to say:

Sources in the foreign ministry who were involved in the discussion told Haaretz that the recommendations made were the opposite of what was published in the media Friday. "There were various ideas," a senior foreign ministry official said, "but the foreign ministry's main recommendation to Lieberman following that discussion was to take steps to prevent a further escalation with Turkey."

It's just disgraceful that you can pick up one line in an Irish news website and start a thread titled 'Israel threatens to support terrorism' and let the trainwreck commence.

anymore

anymore wrote: »

Israel and Turkey were for decades military partners, so let us put this temporary spat as a piece of internal politicking inside Turkey. If Israel is an terrorist state, then by those standards, Turkey undoubtedly is and has been for far far longer than Israel. Need i remind you turkey is still in illegal occupying of art of Cyrus and is still waging war against minorities and oppressing religious groups within its own borders.

In fact some has referred me to a letter in the It from Israel's ambassador which has confirmed israel's allianc ewith Turkey :
http://www.irishtimes.com/letters/
Turkish ambassador Altay Cengizer’s article (Opinion, September 8th) rehashes several myths about the Mavi Marmara incident in 2010. The interception of the Mavi Marmaraby Israel Defence Forces was not an “illegitimate” or criminal action under international law. As the recently released UN Palmer Report states, Israel’s blockade of Gaza is perfectly legitimate under international law as Gaza is a hostile polity which poses a threat to Israel, and it is legitimate to stop hostile parties intent on breaking a blockade even in international waters.
It is absurd to compare the IHH activists to the members of Médecins Sans Frontières! It is internationally recognised that IHH, while ostensibly a Muslim “charity” organisation, is in fact affiliated to Jihadi groups, including Hamas. IHH activists on the Mavi Marmarawere looking for a fight.
This is well documented – by Al Jazeera at the time and in archival footage used by a BBC Panorama documentary later, which showed the IHH activists before their confrontation with the IDF making and trumpeting weapons and chanting Jihadi slogans including “Death to the Jews”.
Turkey was traditionally Israel’s best ally in the region and we are concerned and worried by Turkey’s recent shift in foreign policy to a stance that is unfairly harsh and critical of Israel.
Such a stance might strengthen extremism throughout the region. By its actions, Turkey is placing the United States – a friend of both Israel and Turkey – in a very awkward situation. The only people happy now are Hamas and their sister organisations of fanatics across the region.
Israel is more than willing to do what is necessary to heal the breach in our relations, but as a sovereign state it cannot accept humiliation by giving an apology when none is necessary or morally right.
In recent months Israel has repeatedly tried to achieve compromise with Turkey. I hope that one day soon we can resolve this upset and resume the positive accord that used to exist between the only two countries in the Middle East which have open, pluralist politics. It would be a tragedy if the two countries most alike in the region pulled apart from each other. – Yours, etc,
BOAZ MODAI,
Ambassador of Israel,
Embassy of Israel,
Pembroke Road,
Ballsbridge,
Dublin 4.
.

HellsAngel

Wasn't the state formed by Zionist terrorists such as the Stern gang, Irgun and Lehi who carried out some of the worst terrorist acts in history that would give Al Queda a run for it such as the bombing of the King David Hotel 1946 (91 dead) and the Waffen SS style massacre of Palestinian village Deir Yassin 1948 (107 dead) and the murder of the the UN appointed mediator and Swedish diplomat Folke Bernadotte who had rescued 15,000 people from German concentration camps in WW2 but was murdered by the Stern gang in 1948. Thats the thanks Bernadotte got from the Zionists for saving thousands of Jews from concentration camps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folke_Bernadotte#UN_mediator

Monty Burnz

brimal wrote: »

Yet another pointless Israel thread.

These PKK meetings were a suggestion, along with many other suggestions, that were put forward by a team of officials working for Lieberman. These are purely hypothetical ideas for all situations that may occur over the coming months.

Netanyahu has distanced himself from the comments, and another source who was involved in the talks had this to say:


It's just disgraceful that you can pick up one line in an Irish news website and start a thread titled 'Israel threatens to support terrorism' and let the trainwreck commence.

Ridiculous post. If the Irish government had some issue with the US, and the Irish foreign minister came out and said that the Irish government would be sitting down with Al Qaeda to see if it could lend support to them, do you think that it would be acceptable? Even as a 'hypothetical' approach to the situation?

I applaud the fact that you are actually addressing the proposed Israeli support for terrorism, but I fail to see how raising the subject is pointless.

wes

Well Liberman is actually to the right of Netanyahu. Liberman is basically Israels Milsovic, he is a deeply racist nutjob, and is also violating international law, as he lives in a West Bank settlement, the fact that he came out with this crap is no surprise. The man is a loose cannon and Netanyahu should have the common sense to get this extremist out of government, as he will drag them further into extremism.

Teclo

Israel - Terrorist - Israel - Terrorist - Israel - Terrorist - Israel - Terrorist - Israel - Terrorist - Israel - Terrorist - Israel - Terrorist - Israel - Terrorist - Israel - Terrorist - Israel - Terrorist

incantation must be continually repeated for at least eight hours during the day, if not you are at risk of running with the zionist dogs

Foghladh

From what I've read it appears to be a statement of options from a well established hard-liner in the Israeli Government. Given that Netanyahu has pretty much distanced himself from it, I wouldn't quite make the leap to it being Government policy

Einhard

Foghladh wrote: »

From what I've read it appears to be a statement of options from a well established hard-liner in the Israeli Government. Given that Netanyahu has pretty much distanced himself from it, I wouldn't quite make the leap to it being Government policy

Exactly. It's clear that this was never under serious consideration by the Israeli government, so it's incorrect to suggest that it's a threat by the state of Israel. Lieberman is both a hardliner and a loose cannon, and cannot be regarded as the voice of Israel, regardless of how much some would wish that to be the case.

Monty Burnz

Einhard wrote: »

Exactly. It's clear that this was never under serious consideration by the Israeli government, so it's incorrect to suggest that it's a threat by the state of Israel. Lieberman is both a hardliner and a loose cannon, and cannot be regarded as the voice of Israel, regardless of how much some would wish that to be the case.

He's the minister of foreign affairs. I don't see how it's clear that it wasn't under serious consideration, and the fact that there's an extremist in such a key role in the Israeli government isn't some sort of mitigation - it shows how bad things are there.

Foghladh

Monty Burnz wrote: »

He's the minister of foreign affairs. I don't see how it's clear that it wasn't under serious consideration, and the fact that there's an extremist in such a key role in the Israeli government isn't some sort of mitigation - it shows how bad things are there.

There's no denying that there is an extremist element within Israeli politics and Lieberman heads them up. They have a left, a right and a centre politically, like most countries, and unfortunately Liebermans party has the third largest representation in the Knesset. I wouldn't be surprised if it was under consideration. In fact the statement from the Prime Ministers office in Haaretz.com admitted as much, "the prime minister and the government discussed different theoretical option in case of an escalation". But it also stated "Our policy was and remains to prevent a breakdown of relations with Turkey and easing the tensions between the countries". The story coming out of the Foreign Ministry is something similar:
Sources in the foreign ministry who were involved in the discussion told Haaretz that the recommendations made were the opposite of what was published in the media Friday. "There were various ideas," a senior foreign ministry official said, "but the foreign ministry's main recommendation to Lieberman following that discussion was to take steps to prevent a further escalation with Turkey."

LondonIrish90

Monty Burnz wrote: »

It's almost like you've nothing to say about the Israeli state threatening to support terrorism.

As the likes of Wolfe Tone, Nodin and the other bloke who's user begins with D would say (they thanked your post) with regards to the IRA and terrorism - one mans terrorism is another's justified plight. Why support one struggle and not another?

Can they not see the similarities in the way they interpret the arab israeli troubles and the situation with the Kurds in Turkey, Iraq etc?

Monty Burnz

LondonIrish90 wrote: »

As the likes of Wolfe Tone, Nodin and the other bloke who's user begins with D would say (they thanked your post) with regards to the IRA and terrorism - one mans terrorism is another's justified plight. Why support one struggle and not another?

Can they not see the similarities in the way they interpret the arab israeli troubles and the situation with the Kurds in Turkey, Iraq etc?

That's certainly a point - but if you are looking for a just cause, then what is more just than that of the Palestinians? And if we agree with the Israeli state that terrorism is wrong when perpetrated against Israel (and I think most of us do), then how is it acceptable for Israel or and branch of the Israeli government to consider supporting terrorism against a neighbouring democracy?

anymore

Monty Burnz wrote: »

That's certainly a point - but if you are looking for a just cause, then what is more just than that of the Palestinians? And if we agree with the Israeli state that terrorism is wrong when perpetrated against Israel (and I think most of us do), then how is it acceptable for Israel or and branch of the Israeli government to consider supporting terrorism against a neighbouring democracy?

Again I wil say it, turkey is a ' democracy' that is in illegal occupation of part of cyprus and is waging war against its Kurdish minority. So why should israel be helod out as a terrorist state and not Turkey ?
it appears to be part of the myopias that affets the view of the Middle EaST.

Fred Cohen

anymore wrote: »

Dont forget one of Israels' other great sins in this region ... treating women as equals

Don't think so

http://www.haaretz.com/woman-beaten-on-j-lem-bus-for-refusing-to-move-to-rear-seat-1.207251

As to today's letter in the Times, I was struck by the use of the word "Respect" and it brought to mind the picture of the Turkish Ambassador sitting in front of TV cameras on a seat lower than Mr Libermans. I was also struck by the level of "Respect" that was shown to the Irish people when forged Irish passports were used to commit an extrajudicial killing.

With regard to Mr Libermanns comments, if the foreign minister doesn't speak for the Israeli people on matters of international affairs, who does?

Foghladh

Fred Cohen wrote: »

With regard to Mr Libermanns comments, if the foreign minister doesn't speak for the Israeli people on matters of international affairs, who does?

I may be wrong on this (and no doubt I'll be swiftly informed if I am ) but I didn't think Liebermans comments were made as a statement from the foreign ministry. I wouldn't say that the comments of one man should be construed as the voice of the people as a whole. The fact that the prime minister felt it necessary to give some clarification would seem to indicate that it's not a popular idea. It should be remembered that the Government there is a coalition and Liebermans party is a junior partner.

anymore

Fred Cohen wrote: »

Don't think so

http://www.haaretz.com/woman-beaten-on-j-lem-bus-for-refusing-to-move-to-rear-seat-1.207251

As to today's letter in the Times, I was struck by the use of the word "Respect" and it brought to mind the picture of the Turkish Ambassador sitting in front of TV cameras on a seat lower than Mr Libermans. I was also struck by the level of "Respect" that was shown to the Irish people when forged Irish passports were used to commit an extrajudicial killing.

With regard to Mr Libermanns comments, if the foreign minister doesn't speak for the Israeli people on matters of international affairs, who does?

The reason Irish passports are used is because they are so easy to forge !

Monty Burnz

anymore wrote: »

The reason Irish passports are used is because they are so easy to forge !

Well that's ok then. Sure let them carry out assassinations using our diplomatic documents as they please.

Incidentally, the EU passports are - as far as I know - all more or less the same.

anymore wrote: »

Again I wil say it, turkey is a ' democracy' that is in illegal occupation of part of cyprus and is waging war against its Kurdish minority.

I'm still baffled by your attempts to excuse the idea of a terrorist campaign against Turkey using the exact same reasons that others do for such campaigns against Israel. That being the case, can I take it you feel that Hamas and Hezbollah etc. are justified in using terror tactics against Israel?

Foghladh

Monty Burnz wrote: »

'm still baffled by your attempts to excuse the idea of a terrorist campaign against Turkey using the exact same reasons that others do for such campaigns against Israel. That being the case, can I take it you feel that Hamas and Hezbollah etc. are justified in using terror tactics against Israel?

Does this mean you believe that Hamas and Hezbollah do use terror tactics against Israel? I ask this not for the sake of an argument just curiosity I should add, lest this thread spiral to 20 pages!

Monty Burnz

Foghladh wrote: »

Does this mean you believe that Hamas and Hezbollah do use terror tactics against Israel? I ask this not for the sake of an argument just curiosity I should add, lest this thread spiral to 20 pages!

Yes, I believe they do.

Fred Cohen

Foghladh wrote: »

I may be wrong on this (and no doubt I'll be swiftly informed if I am ) but I didn't think Liebermans comments were made as a statement from the foreign ministry. I wouldn't say that the comments of one man should be construed as the voice of the people as a whole. The fact that the prime minister felt it necessary to give some clarification would seem to indicate that it's not a popular idea. It should be remembered that the Government there is a coalition and Liebermans party is a junior partner.

Do you Know what the power and responitability holding a ministry is, it means you determine what policy is

Foghladh

Fred Cohen wrote: »

Do you Know what the power and responitability holding a ministry is, it means you determine what policy is

I'll be honest here and say I don't believe that to be the case. Personally I've always felt the ministerial position isn't quite as powerful as one might imagine. If it was I'm sure our health system would have been already put to rights since the last handover. A minister is a political appointment pure and simple. The power behind the engine is the civil servants who will implement the policy and in the most part formulate it. Many things will be bandied about by politicians, normally to enhance their standing, and Lieberman is striving to pick up more support. You don't have to look too far domestically to hear strong man talk. 'Frankfurts way or...' springs to mind. Unless a statement is issued through a government department I generally take it a speculation until proven otherwise

Monty Burnz

Foghladh wrote: »

I'll be honest here and say I don't believe that to be the case. Personally I've always felt the ministerial position isn't quite as powerful as one might imagine. If it was I'm sure our health system would have been already put to rights since the last handover. A minister is a political appointment pure and simple. The power behind the engine is the civil servants who will implement the policy and in the most part formulate it. Many things will be bandied about by politicians, normally to enhance their standing, and Lieberman is striving to pick up more support. You don't have to look too far domestically to hear strong man talk. 'Frankfurts way or...' springs to mind. Unless a statement is issued through a government department I generally take it a speculation until proven otherwise

You are misunderstanding: the minister's role is to determine policy, and the civil service enact the policy. A civil service does not determine its own direction, or issue statements. Here, we are concerned with a minister considering a policy of supporting terrorism.

Einhard

Monty Burnz wrote: »

You are misunderstanding: the minister's role is to determine policy, and the civil service enact the policy. A civil service does not determine its own direction, or issue statements. Here, we are concerned with a minister considering a policy of supporting terrorism.

Ministers are obviously powerful players in any democratic state, but their personal comments or suggestions cannot be taken as the policy of that state. There have been plenty of examples in Ireland of ministers speaking out of turn, only to have the government of the day backtrack from their comments. In Lieberman's case, it seems that he didn't even issue a statement on the issue, but rather that it was discussed as one of many possibilities. Not only was the idea dismissed by the Israeli government, but we don't even know whether Lieberman himself supports the notion, or whether it was thrown out there in the equivalent of a brainstorming session.

I agree completely that any such move would be hypocritical and disingenuous on Israel's part (although I don't think the PKK are the equivalent of Hamas and Hezbollah), but to describe it as government policy, or even as under active consideration by the Israeli government is overstating it.

paddyandy

Claiming to Love God yet hating His People.???????

[MOD]What?[/MOD]