What if you could change the gender of your brain?

yawha

I've been thinking about transgenderism recently. Although not trans myself, I find the subject of gender quite interesting.

So, my understanding is that transgendered individuals are born with a certain "brain gender", and the opposite physical gender.

The treatment for this is to go on a course of hormones, which essentially causes the body to go through a "second puberty", and essentially almost transform into the body of the person's brain gender. They then may undergo surgery to reassign their genitals to genitals closer to those of their brain gender.

I hope this is all correct so far.

Anyways, what I was thinking was, instead of changing one's physical gender to match their brain gender, what about changing one's brain gender to match their physical one?

Now I'm not a neuroscientist or an expert on the subject of brain gender, so maybe it is known this is simply not easily possible. However, my thinking is simply that if it's so easy to alter one's physical gender via hormones, it maybe could be possible to do the same with brain gender. And were it possible, and assuming all that was required was to take a course of drugs or something (as opposed to brain surgery ) it would seem to me to be a much less invasive treatment to make someone feel comfortable in their body.

What do you guys think? Is this insane?

Kanoe

I don't identify as transgender but I sort of identify as gender queer in that I feel I've elements of both, maybe 50/50. but if as you suggest my brain was rewired I'd probably have no problem because I'd identify as 100% female. ...unless I remembered the difference and then I'd be unhappy because I like me the way I am now and don't want to be anything else. I don't know, I'm comfortable enough with the body I'm in and wouldn't consider surgery anyway so it's not really an issue. My daughter identify's in much the same way and I'd hate for someone to come along with a magic pill and make her different to the way she was born. I don't like the idea that I would have to be one or the other but that's just me personally.

Links234

I'd rather kill myself.

yawha

Links234 wrote: »

I'd rather kill myself.

Why?

Azure_sky

It's an incredibly hypothetical scenario. No wonder drug exists to change brain sex, just as no wonder drug exists to change sexual orientation.

deirdre_dub

I think any technology that could change someone's brain gender would be unbelievably dangerous, and I hope it never gets developed.

What we are talking about is technology that could change someone's basic sense of themselves. Can you imagine what that technology could do in the wrong / inadequately supervised hands?

Annasopra

Question back at the OP. What if a person doesn't identify as male or female?

yawha

mango salsa wrote: »

Question back at the OP. What if a person doesn't identify as male or female?

That's sorta irrelevant. What matters is if they're comfortable with themselves and not experiencing gender dysphoria.

Annasopra

yawha wrote: »

That's sorta irrelevant. What matters is if they're comfortable with themselves and not experiencing gender dysphoria.

It's not irrelevant and your post seems to assume gender dysphoria is a bad thing!

yawha

mango salsa wrote: »

It's not irrelevant and your post seems to assume gender dysphoria is a bad thing!

???

How is gender dysphoria a good thing?

WonderWoman!

No one is 100% male or female we all have a masculine and feminine side
why would you wanna take that aspect of someone away its that part of the person that contributes to who that person is so you alter that then you alter the person altogether .
Why would you wanna fxck with mother nature like that?

yawha

WonderWoman! wrote: »

No one is 100% male or female we all have a masculine and feminine side
why would you wanna take that aspect of someone away its that part of the person that contributes to who that person is so you alter that then you alter the person altogether .
Why would you wanna fxck with mother nature like that?

Why would this class as fucking with mother nature, and HRT and SRS wouldn't?

Also, I'm well aware of the fact that no one is 100% male or female, but ultimately, most people lean towards one of the sides and want their body and predominant brain gender to match up. Otherwise, there'd be no such thing as transgenderism.

WonderWoman!

yawha wrote: »

Why would this class as fuck[\size]ing with mother nature, and HRT and SRS wouldn't?

because mother nature intended each of us to have at least a small percentage of each gender making someone 100% female is just wrong .I'm not 100% female and I'm a cis gendered woman

SRS and HRT will make someone a higher percentage of their desired sex it wont make someone 100% m or f - in my opinion anyway so that's not fxcking with mother nature

deirdre_dub

It's all fscking with mother nature. But fscking with someone's basic identity - someone's fundamental sense of themselves - is a different story altogether to fscking with their body.

yawha

deirdre_dub wrote: »

It's all fscking with mother nature. But fscking with someone's basic identity - someone's fundamental sense of themselves - is a different story altogether to fscking with their body.

Yeah, I guess I understand that. I wonder though, are we too attached to the idea that our brains, our fundamental personality traits and sense of ourselves are immutable.

Like, for example, sexuality is fluid, right? It's not too uncommon for someone to sway between being more attracted to the opposite sex and the same sex over the course of their lives. It's not correct to say that people have an immutable, fundamental, fixed sexuality. I wonder if the same could be said for gender?

Shakti

sounds like something akin to a chemical lobotomy if there is such a thing lets hope not,

I've been following the 'Behind the walls' documentary tragic stuff. Trans-people shouldnt be but are often treated like they are mentally ill or 'broken' I wonder how many were lobotimised or spent thier lives 'Behind the walls' in Irish mental institutions.

WonderWoman!

Shakti wrote: »

Trans-people shouldnt be but are often treated like they are mentally ill

According to the DSM which most people in healthcare are supposed to follow -they are .According to me the DSM is too much BS so I don't follow it religiously

deirdre_dub

yawha wrote: »

Yeah, I guess I understand that. I wonder though, are we too attached to the idea that our brains, our fundamental personality traits and sense of ourselves are immutable.

Like, for example, sexuality is fluid, right? It's not too uncommon for someone to sway between being more attracted to the opposite sex and the same sex over the course of their lives. It's not correct to say that people have an immutable, fundamental, fixed sexuality. I wonder if the same could be said for gender?

When it comes to gender, I don't think so, at least not to nearly the same extent as with sexuality. There are fundamental differences between males and females. Those fundamental differences extend to differences in brain structure. And the brain structure of a male-to-female trans person is more comparable to the brain structure of a cis-female than that of a cis-male.

Freiheit

As I've said before current science is almost unable to distinguish between male and female brains,apart from size. Whatever distances that do exist are a long way from being understood. Thus there is no clearly defining line between male and female brains.

I think the questions demonstrates a lack of knowledge about and aptitude for the topic. Nobody with a good understand of the field would have posted such.

Annasopra

yawha wrote: »

???

How is gender dysphoria a good thing?

I prefer to see it as neither good or bad but just accept that it happens

yawha

mango salsa wrote: »

I prefer to see it as neither good or bad but just accept that it happens

I would be very surprised if any trans person wouldn't have preferred to have been born with the correct body.

I would think that many transgendered people would be quite offended by that view...

Annasopra

yawha wrote: »

I would be very surprised if any trans person wouldn't have preferred to have been born with the correct body.

I would think that many transgendered people would be quite offended by that view...

I'm not sure how it is offensive - Could you maybe explain more about why you think it is offensive.

In my view societal culture of cisnormativity means that the general population views being trans as a bad thing and internalised transphobia means that transgendered people view being transgendered as a bad thing. I have no doubt that at some stage most trans people have wished they were not trans - This does not mean being trans is a bad thing - it means that societal norms and beliefs have suggested it is a bad thing and that trans people internalise these beliefs in a negative way.

yawha

mango salsa wrote: »

I'm not sure how it is offensive - Could you maybe explain more about why you think it is offensive.

In my view societal culture of cisnormativity means that the general population views being trans as a bad thing and internalised transphobia means that transgendered people view being transgendered as a bad thing. I have no doubt that at some stage most trans people have wished they were not trans - This does not mean being trans is a bad thing - it means that societal norms and beliefs have suggested it is a bad thing and that trans people internalise these beliefs in a negative way.

But the issues transgendered people face aren't entirely societal. In fact, I'd say that societal issues aren't even the main ones.

We weren't discussing being trans as a whole. We were discussing gender dysphoria. Trans people experience a significant amount of depression, anxiety, confusion etc. and ultimately don't feel comfortable in their body. I would class this as a bad thing. Cisnormativity and transphobia don't even enter into it at this point (although I acknowledge that they can exacerbate it).

Where I see it as possibly being offensive is that you seem to be dismissing the issues trans people go through as a result of gender dysphoria.

Basically what I'm saying is, being transgendered is not a bad thing, but gender dysphoria is a bad thing to have to go through.

Sorta like the way being depressed doesn't make you a bad person, but of course depression itself is bad.

WonderWoman!

yawha wrote: »

I would think that many transgendered people would be quite offended by that view...

Salsa only said it happens - I don't think anyone can find offence with that only you

Annasopra

yawha wrote: »

Where I see it as possibly being offensive is that you seem to be dismissing the issues trans people go through as a result of gender dysphoria.

Basically what I'm saying is, being transgendered is not a bad thing, but gender dysphoria is a bad thing to have to go through.

Sorta like the way being depressed doesn't make you a bad person, but of course depression itself is bad.

Ok that's a fair point - and I guess being a cisgendered male I don't fully understand but I think and perhaps I'm wrong on this - gender dysphoria itself isn't a bad thing but living through it can be - does that make more sense?

Annasopra

yawha wrote: »

We weren't discussing being trans as a whole. We were discussing gender dysphoria. Trans people experience a significant amount of depression, anxiety, confusion etc. and ultimately don't feel comfortable in their body. I would class this as a bad thing. Cisnormativity and transphobia don't even enter into it at this point (although I acknowledge that they can exacerbate it).

In my view quite a lot of that depression and anxiety are results of societal cisnormativity and internalised transphobia

deirdre_dub

yawha wrote: »

I would think that many transgendered people would be quite offended by that view...

This transgendered person is quite offended by cisgendered people making pronouncements on how I must feel about certain things.

jaffacakesyum

deirdre_dub wrote: »

This transgendered person is quite offended by cisgendered people making pronouncements on how I must feel about certain things.

Ah now there's no need for that. He never said you must feel this way. It would be different if he said "all transgendered people would be offended by that view"

Anyway, I'm quite surprised that nobody is agreeing with yawha. I really don't know anything about transgenderism but I would've thought that yourself and other transgendered people would agree with this statement (to quote yawha):

" I would be very surprised if any trans person wouldn't have preferred to have been born with the correct body."

Is this not largely true?

deirdre_dub

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

" I would be very surprised if any trans person wouldn't have preferred to have been born with the correct body."

Is this not largely true?

Since you've asked a question, as opposed to making a statement about what you expect from transgendered people :mad:, I'll answer.

I'm not sure I want to live in a world where trans people don't exist. I don't think I mind having to pay a price to live in that world, but what I most certainly wish for is I wish it was a world where trans people could be accepted, and hence receive an early diagnosis and early treatment.

I didn't get diagnosis and treatment until I was about 40, largely because of that non-acceptance.

jaffacakesyum

deirdre_dub wrote: »

Since you've asked a question, as opposed to making a statement about what you expect from transgendered people :mad:, I'll answer.

I'm not sure I want to live in a world where trans people don't exist. I don't think I mind having to pay a price to live in that world, but what I most certainly wish for is I wish it was a world where trans people could be accepted, and hence receive an early diagnosis and early treatment.

I didn't get diagnosis and treatment until I was about 40, largely because of that non-acceptance.

Certainly that must be what all transgenders (and those who support transgendered rights) hope for and God, I really hope one day it becomes a reality.

However, one step further would be that everyone is born in the correct body and doesn't have to go through the pains of gender dysphoria. I would think this would be a good thing. Obviously this is going to never happen because the worlds not all rainbows and butterflies, but anyway.

Freiheit

While I understand,I absolutely loathe the obsession with a rigid gender system,is responsible for so much mental ill health and prejudice. As though there's a need to cure those who exhibit atypical gender tendencies,the question clearly views such as pathogenic. As I said it shows a major knowledge gap and possibly intellect gap too.

yawha

mango salsa wrote: »

Ok that's a fair point - and I guess being a cisgendered male I don't fully understand but I think and perhaps I'm wrong on this - gender dysphoria itself isn't a bad thing but living through it can be - does that make more sense?

I would have thought that the clue is in the name, "gender dysphoria", the opposite of euphoria. My understanding is that gender dysphoria is the inherent anxiety, depression, confusion etc. associated with transgenderism, no?

I guess this can depend on the meaning and connotations you give to the word "bad" though.

mango salsa wrote: »

In my view quite a lot of that depression and anxiety are results of societal cisnormativity and internalised transphobia

Oh absolutely. But it's not all societal. Societal acceptance isn't going to stop people feeling uncomfortable about their physical sex and seeking out HRT and SRS, it would simply make it much easier to do so.

Freiheit wrote: »

As I've said before current science is almost unable to distinguish between male and female brains,apart from size. Whatever distances that do exist are a long way from being understood. Thus there is no clearly defining line between male and female brains.

I think the questions demonstrates a lack of knowledge about and aptitude for the topic. Nobody with a good understand of the field would have posted such.

Freiheit wrote: »

While I understand,I absolutely loathe the obsession with a rigid gender system,is responsible for so much mental ill health and prejudice. As though there's a need to cure those who exhibit atypical gender tendencies,the question clearly views such as pathogenic. As I said it shows a major knowledge gap and possibly intellect gap too.

I think you're being very mean. I have stated that I am not a neuroscientist, and I have not delved into much in depth research material on the subject. However, I have educated myself and seek to learn more, and I don't know how I've exhibited "a gap in intellect". I'm actually quite hurt by that remark.

Look, I know it's a bit of an outlandish question, which is in the realms of sci fi at this point, but I just wanted to provoke a discussion about the nature of gender, because I'm interested in it, and I want to learn. I'm not trying to pathogenize anyone or anything, and I don't believe I've exhibited that I believe in a rigid, binary gender system at any point.

deirdre_dub

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

However, one step further would be that everyone is born in the correct body and doesn't have to go through the pains of gender dysphoria.

You mean one step further is the eradication of transgenderism. For some strange reason, I'm not a fan of the eradication of transgendered people from the world, even if that eradication is humane.

CrystalLettuce

Gender is too integrated into who someone is. It's playing god with people's identities, treating us like computer programs. Very few transgendered people are truly unhappy with the fact that they're male/female and heart. It's the body that's the issue, and to some degree, the body can be changed. In fact the technology for giving someone a whole new body is probably technologically and financially on a rung down from such intricate work on the most complicated part of the human anatomy.

I even worry if things like curing autism might be going too far, in fact.