what ram to put to texel x ewe

yog1

we've been breeding with texel ram's for years and while the lambs are good for fat/store lambs to sell there not much good to keep as replacements,when they are put back to the texel ram the lambs are too low to the ground, i want to pick off 50 ewe's and run them with a different ram so that i can breed my own replacements, what would you use that would be good as a replacement and not leave the ram lambs too hard to finish?

5live

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056376654

This thread might be a bit of help. When do you intend lambing them? Lleyn may be an option for lambing % and relatively easy care after lambing. Belclare too even though some question the weaning % after a high lambing % and the rate of hybrid vigour will be lower than normal as the mark2 belclare has about 25% texel in them. Suffolk might be an option but i find they need more dosing and are fairly dopey when getting a first suck. Charolais is dealt with there too.

Whatever you use, get the best one you can afford as you will have the daughters with you for a good number of years

Cran

researcher told me recently all ewes should have atleast 1/4 hill breed in them, which I completely agree with. Texel ewes drive me crazy always found them to posh to push!
Think a lleyn might be best best, add some life and prolific to them?

Username John

Cran wrote: »

Think a lleyn might be best best, add some life and prolific to them?

Just read up on the Lleyn history - http://www.lleynsheep.com/history.htm
"Bakewell exported some of his rams to Holland to improve the indigenous breed there; the resulting progeny later became known as the Texel, which has a number of breed points similar to the Lleyn today."

I wonder would crossing to a LLeyn bring extra height as the OP wants?
Also - if the LLeyn brings extra prolificy, is this something the OP wants? Not knocking Lleyn, they look interesting...

Cran wrote: »

researcher told me recently all ewes should have atleast 1/4 hill breed in them, which I completely agree with.

Interesting comment Cran.

I have mainly Suffolks, a few Charolais X I bought. A few of the Suffolks are there a long time (I inherited the flock) and have a bit of what I would call "horney" in them - you can tell by the fleece, its a bit 'hairy'...
But the lambs from these sheep wouldnt be as good as the Suffolks (Well, the blacker faced tight wooled sheep) I find the lambs from the horney-type a lot slower to come on... The flip side is the half-horney sheep ALWAYS lamb unassisted, without any problems...
I guess it all depends on what you want - the bigger the flock, the more unassisted lambings you want I guess...

What breeds do you run Cran? I think I saw you asking re NZ suffolks on the bff I think, did you source one?

OP - based on my flock description above, I am prob not the best man to be commenting on texel cross

flatout11

Cran wrote: »

researcher told me recently all ewes should have atleast 1/4 hill breed in them

how did they suggest you achieve this in a closed flock???

Cran

Hi John interesting comments! I run mainly Mule's about 90% of the flock are currently mules, with the remainder mostly cheviot crosses and a few lleyns i tried last year....didn't source a NZ suffolk and going to buy a lleyn to try across some mules and cheviots this year as an experiment.

I understand the low to the ground comment by the OP, but thats more a blocky muscle breeding issue with putting texel back to texel rather than a size issue persee.
A smallish ewe that can breed more than her own body weight each year and lamb on her own would be my aim. With sheep if you can consistently get lambs to finish off grass (or some meal late in the year) with R3 grade thats a success, this can be achieved with a light maternal type ewe (such as lleyn or mule) crossed to a terminal sire. Think the terminal cross bred ewe to terminal sire only gives better grades which offers little extra reward price wise while often ruducing the number of lambs weaned.

A comment I've heard recently in terms of tagging sheep is that sheep are managed as a flock rather than individuals which is the case in cattle farming. Think this makes sense in terms of a breeding and management approach also.

Cran

flatout11 wrote: »

how did they suggest you achieve this in a closed flock???

thats the question, and don't know to be honest. its probably the reason for the huge interest in lleyns as they seem to be a good middle ground.

yog1

never had much bother with too posh to push, love the texel as it's up on it feet quick and little bother with it, the ewe's i have at the min are grand it's the lambs out of what would be replacements that are too low to the ground,

was going to go to a sale on sat for the lleyn but the few comments bout the ram lamb being hard to finish put me off, also i'm not sure if they would be any bigger than the replacements i already have comming on,

suffolks x ewe's would be good, but in order to get them i'd have to put up with the lazy lambs that they are at the start, and i'm not sure i'd be willing to put up with them, lambing is hard enough without causing more problems with lazy lambs

we used to breed with a border leicester when i was young, dont know what they would be like with a texel x though,

also a cheviot is also a sheep we used to keep, could they be an option, wild as hairs though

flatout11

yog1 wrote: »

we've been breeding with texel ram's for years and while the lambs are good for fat/store lambs to sell there not much good to keep as replacements,when they are put back to the texel ram the lambs are too low to the ground, i want to pick off 50 ewe's and run them with a different ram so that i can breed my own replacements, what would you use that would be good as a replacement and not leave the ram lambs too hard to finish?

tbh i am a fan of texel lambs ... not texel ewes, Cran summed it up well they are too posh to push feet aint great either
id use a belclare on them (better confirmation than the llyen in my opinion) and cross them back to a suffolk

Cran

guess it depends on how many sheep you keep what type you pick. Any maternal breed cross will be harder to finish than a terminal breed.

I kind of see what you trying to aim towards, and not sure border leicester would be the answer. One that comes to mind that might be a solution - there is a guy near me that keeps about 80 sheep and always stopping to talk about sheep (as you do) he swears by Dorsets, he lambs early and thinks they make great mothers and the balance your looking for sounds similar to him....

Just as an fyi I feed allot of lambs over the winter and cheviots are way harder to finsh than lleyns...

flatout11

Cran wrote: »

thats the question, and don't know to be honest. its probably the reason for the huge interest in lleyns as they seem to be a good middle ground.

sounds like they were giving a bit of a soft answer !!!!!
who was it??
there seems to be a big push on the llyens across the water with lamb pirices higher lamb numbers are becoming more enticing to lads

Cran

flatout11 wrote: »

sounds like they were giving a bit of a soft answer !!!!!
who was it??
there seems to be a big push on the llyens across the water with lamb pirices higher lamb numbers are becoming more enticing to lads

I have 10 lleyns bought them last year as a test, and the ewes have greatly impressed me. Have never seen ewes eat so little and not lose condition, and also raise 2 lambs handy. Lambs haven't overly impressed, the mule crosses have out grown them but they have killed well.
would i prefer lleyn or mule? most defo mule - but sourcing high numbers of replacements each year is an issue and I need to rear some replacements and lleyn are my first experiment... and its very much a work in progress:p

flatout11

Cran wrote: »

I have 10 lleyns bought them last year as a test, and the ewes have greatly impressed me. Have never seen ewes eat so little and not lose condition, and also raise 2 lambs handy. Lambs haven't overly impressed, the mule crosses have out grown them but they have killed well.
would i prefer lleyn or mule? most defo mule - but sourcing high numbers of replacements each year is an issue and I need to rear some replacements and lleyn are my first experiment... and its very much a work in progress:p

and the mules aint coming cheap.......... one man i know payed over €155 for ewe lambs to run around as lawnmowers for the winter........ cracked!!!!

Cran

ye lambs made mad money this year, while hoggets I thought weren't to bad. think guys looked at hogs making 180/190 this year after paying 100/110 for lambs last year and then paid accordingly high prices for this years lambs... but think 30/40 return on carrying lambs over is more realistic aim than what was got this year and last.

sheep farming has been bit of a rollercoaster last few years, we paid twice what we paid for the same sheep 5 years ago. Back then the talk was all about people giving it up. I prefer the current situation of people feeling able to pay 155 for ewe lambs rather than considering packing it in...

yog1

Cran wrote: »

guess it depends on how many sheep you keep what type you pick. Any maternal breed cross will be harder to finish than a terminal breed.

I kind of see what you trying to aim towards, and not sure border leicester would be the answer. One that comes to mind that might be a solution - there is a guy near me that keeps about 80 sheep and always stopping to talk about sheep (as you do) he swears by Dorsets, he lambs early and thinks they make great mothers and the balance your looking for sounds similar to him....

Just as an fyi I feed allot of lambs over the winter and cheviots are way harder to finsh than lleyns...

keep about 200 ewe's and around 40 ewe lambs which i don't put the ram to until they are 1.5yr old leaving them lambing around 2yr old, i know they are lieing around not earning their keep but it give's less hassle during lambing time, and up until now we only kept texel rams which would have been looking for trouble with a ewe lamb,

the lleyn seems to keep coming up, dorsrt was one that was also mentioned, wonder what it's lambs would be like, quick to get up ect,
problem i see is that most men i talk to recommend the same sheep they are working with, no one can see past their own animals, suppose i'm no different when it come to it,:o

Cran

yog I'm real believer in systems and certain breeds suits different systems. I use 100% charollais on the flock as they suit best at the moment, easy of lambing, growth rates, hardy etc but that doesn't mean I wouldn't use Texel if I thought they would improve the situation.

If I was early lambing wouldn't use mule or lleyn as neither suit sponging and probably have a texel cross in there instead. Mule are a blue border leicester cross, but couldn't see me runing a leicester ram with the ewes. so horses for courses etc
when we first got charollais old man heard stories of how soft they were and bit of rain they die, tried texel first didn't suit outdoor lambing when charollais finally used everything else cleared out within 1 year. He's retired now and helps out when I first brought mules in he thought I was mad and said they were goats:rolleyes: now greatest sheep ever and now he's pushing against lleyns
- they only way to know is pick a breed you like the look off take a chance 30 ewes and put a ram on them

supersean1999

Cran wrote: »

ye lambs made mad money this year, while hoggets I thought weren't to bad. think guys looked at hogs making 180/190 this year after paying 100/110 for lambs last year and then paid accordingly high prices for this years lambs... but think 30/40 return on carrying lambs over is more realistic aim than what was got this year and last.

sheep farming has been bit of a rollercoaster last few years, we paid twice what we paid for the same sheep 5 years ago. Back then the talk was all about people giving it up. I prefer the current situation of people feeling able to pay 155 for ewe lambs rather than considering packing it in...

i just hope when the drop off comes again in the trade its not literally in a few weeks, which can happen, im slightly worried about the crazy prices being paid for ewe lambs in particular, and also some of the thrash being bought as breeders is shocking,

flatout11

supersean1999 wrote: »

im slightly worried about the crazy prices being paid for ewe lambs in particular, and also some of the thrash being bought as breeders is shocking,

im afraid it will leave a sour taste in some lads mouths who wont be coming back next year

sheeper

I would suggest you use another Texel only this time buy one with size and power, it can be difficult to find some times and they are expensive (1000 + but a texel with size and power is Very hard to beat them as a sheep !

Highland

I would stay away from leicesters - hard to finish, look terrible and ewes not great at hanging around for too long. I had them and got rid of them. Have texels too PB - have to pull most of the lambs - not good. Also have belclares - they are super sheep. lots of vigour, easy to manage, a bigger more robust sheep than lleyn -IMO. purebreds have litter size of 2.2 - 2.5 but if your crossing on your sheep and keep crossing with other breeds you'll get to 1.7 - 2.0 which is where lowland sheep should be. Keeping your own replacements also a good idea from a biosecurity point of view - lots of disease going round - nasty stuff if you end up getting it.

razor8

Every so often i go out and purchase around 20 broken mouthed horneys, the best that i can find and cross them with my blue faced leicester ram. the ewes are excellent off him and have great months up to 7 year old, some which i still breed at that age

would never dream of changing from the mule, the only down side to i am left with some mule ram lambs but they all manage to finish r3 with no meal as well but probably get a few euro less because they dont look as good as your suffolk or texel. the whole trick is find the right milky horneys and your away. i stay away from the mayo horneys (too fine) and go for a lanark or donegal type horney

there are too many very poor Lleyns rams going around at the moment, until this improves i will be staying away from this breed for now

razor8

Highland wrote: »

I would stay away from leicesters - hard to finish, look terrible and ewes not great at hanging around for too long. I had them and got rid of them. Have texels too PB - have to pull most of the lambs - not good. Also have belclares - they are super sheep. lots of vigour, easy to manage, a bigger more robust sheep than lleyn -IMO. purebreds have litter size of 2.2 - 2.5 but if your crossing on your sheep and keep crossing with other breeds you'll get to 1.7 - 2.0 which is where lowland sheep should be. Keeping your own replacements also a good idea from a biosecurity point of view - lots of disease going round - nasty stuff if you end up getting it.

Lambs off a mule maybe harder too finish, but they have great growth rate and make up for lack of flesh with being heavier lambs and you have no bother getting r grade lambs. In regard to mules not hanging around for long, I would totally disagree from my experience, what you need to watch out for with a Leicester ram is a "hog mouth" which is a problem in the breed; your mules may have come from one of these rams which results in their mouths deteriorating very quickly

yog1

razor8 wrote: »

Lambs off a mule maybe harder too finish, but they have great growth rate and make up for lack of flesh with being heavier lambs and you have no bother getting r grade lambs. In regard to mules not hanging around for long, I would totally disagree from my experience, what you need to watch out for with a Leicester ram is a "hog mouth" which is a problem in the breed; your mules may have come from one of these rams which results in their mouths deteriorating very quickly

what is hog mouth and how does it effect them

razor8

yog1 wrote: »

what is hog mouth and how does it effect them

its where the mouth is either over shot or under shot, some more noticable than others, basically the teeth should meet neatly with the top gum

Mac Taylor

Resurrected this thread rather than starting a new one. Finally decided to get rid of the Suffolk ram as he is 100% wicked and I've had to pull too many lambs which is not ideal as I farm part time. I only keep 30 ewes which are mainly Suffolk x (a combination of either black face or speckled) Trying to decide what ram to get next. Don't keep any for replacements and lamb outdoors only bringing them in for a few days after lambing. Any advice? Thanks, Mac

Mac Taylor

Oops, I thought this would come up in the sheep thread, Mods, would you mind moving it. Thks

sea12

Mac Taylor wrote: »

Resurrected this thread rather than starting a new one. Finally decided to get rid of the Suffolk ram as he is 100% wicked and I've had to pull too many lambs which is not ideal as I farm part time. I only keep 30 ewes which are mainly Suffolk x (a combination of either black face or speckled) Trying to decide what ram to get next. Don't keep any for replacements and lamb outdoors only bringing them in for a few days after lambing. Any advice? Thanks, Mac

Hard to beat a Charolais for ease of lambing. But if your lambing outdoor maybe a vendeen would work better as they are meant to be very hardy at birth. Ranger swears by them anyway.

Suffolk on Suffolk can make tough lambing I know from experience.

Mac Taylor

Rangler, would the vendeen suit out door lambing? Are they a good seller when going through the mart. Thanks, Mac

davidk1394

We lamb about 90 outdoors and we run a charlois and zwartable rams.. good hardy lambs that are up and going quickly and good growth rates. Only breed we wont use is cheviot a pure bolix is what they are. We had poor conception and then only a handful survived

Green farmer

davidk1394 wrote: »

Only breed we wont use is cheviot a pure bolix is what they are.

I've a small few cheviot x ewes and my ones aren't much better they ain't the most docile sheep in the world.

Mac Taylor

davidk1394 wrote: »

We lamb about 90 outdoors and we run a charlois and zwartable rams.. good hardy lambs that are up and going quickly and good growth rates. Only breed we wont use is cheviot a pure bolix is what they are. We had poor conception and then only a handful survived

I was talking to a few over the weekend and got good feedback on the ch. might go with the ch for next year, nothing like planning ahead:D

rangler1

Mac Taylor wrote: »

Rangler, would the vendeen suit out door lambing? Are they a good seller when going through the mart. Thanks, Mac

Very busy here, sorry for not answering your question before now, we don't do outdoor lambing here, but we've always found vendeens hardy and never have had to bring many back in after they going out at 24 - 36 hrs old.
Even the year of the snow at the end of march (2010 I think), I lost only three lambs out of about 250 lambs where the ewes crowded in to a corner and walked on the lambs......all the lambs were like pigs covered in mud the next morning.......don't know how the ewes sorted them,
Some lines of charolais can be very bare at birth but other lines are fine.
A lot of feeders like vendeens as store lambs, they grow well and kill well, ours would be killing out at 47% of full weight and they don't easily go over fat

Mac Taylor

rangler1 wrote: »

Very busy here, sorry for not answering your question before now, we don't do outdoor lambing here, but we've always found vendeens hardy and never have had to bring many back in after they going out at 24 - 36 hrs old.
Even the year of the snow at the end of march (2010 I think), I lost only three lambs out of about 250 lambs where the ewes crowded in to a corner and walked on the lambs......all the lambs were like pigs covered in mud the next morning.......don't know how the ewes sorted them,
Some lines of charolais can be very bare at birth but other lines are fine.
A lot of feeders like vendeens as store lambs, they grow well and kill well, ours would be killing out at 47% of full weight and they don't easily go over fat

Thanks for the reply rangler. Hope lambing is going well for you.