Ireland's Sham Marriages: TV3 does it again

The Scientician

The latest in TV3's recent cavalcade of crap documentaries about the rotten heart of modern Ireland. I, for one, can't wait to see it. I'm especially looking forward to seeing the bit where he chases the sham marriage counsellor down Dublin's O'Connell St.

LighterGuy

So first it was Jerome Hughes going 'undercover' as a bum (to be a total idiot at the same time. The whole 9 euro breakfast and all) Then there was Black Market Ireland. Then there was the social welfare scams.

These type of shows much be drawing really good ratings. Probably old people being "shocked" :pac:

MrStuffins

So, News of the World dies and comes back as a TV station!

Can't wait to see the Fake Sheikh do the weather!

Spread

There's nothing new under the sun

Killer Pigeon

Cue "forners" marrying Irish women to gain citizenship and the social welfare in 5...4...3...2...

MrStuffins

Feckin' Greeks.......

The Scientician

The funny thing is I'm fairly sure "sham" marriages aren't illegal so what's the actual point of the program?

MrStuffins

The Scientician wrote: »

The funny thing is I'm fairly sure "sham" marriages aren't illegal so what's the actual point of the program?

They are if it's between 2 dudes!

Nodin

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Cue "forners" marrying Irish women to gain citizenship and the social welfare in 5...4...3...2...

I think its forners marrying other forners....Eastern Europeans and illegals from outside the EU....

Biggins

The Scientician wrote: »

The latest in TV3's recent cavalcade of crap documentaries about the rotten heart of modern Ireland...

MrStuffins wrote: »

So, News of the World dies and comes back as a TV station!...

In fairness, they do seem to be taking a newspaper approach to some items but also so does other stations.
BBC Panorama often does reports on crimes/criminals in the England state - as can be said of their 'Watchdog' who give it to everyone in bite-size and in good doses.
ITV does it too with current affair programs too - including such episodes as "7 Days on the Breadline", "Police Camera Action", "Fiddles, Cheats and Scams" (a two-part programme that exposed brazen benefit frauds and gave viewers access to revealing surveillance footage of some of the fraudsters in action) and "Dishing the Dirt" to name just four.
RTE does similar on a regular basis - as does I'm sure, most world TV stations.

I would rather these programs exist if only to highlight such issues and additionally remind those running our state that these things also need to be sorted.
...After all such things as crime and sham weddings at the end of the day, is helping to eventually take more money out of our own pockets and is allowing crooks to carry on taking what in life is really not theirs to take - things usually the rest of us have slogged long and hard for.

wolfpawnat

Nodin wrote: »

I think its forners marrying other forners....Eastern Europeans and illegals from outside the EU....

There is a Polish lady married to a Nigerian fella living next door to me, they have 2 kids and both of them work and pay a nanny to mind their children. The only payment they get off the government is children's allowance and to be honest with you since they are both contributing taxes to Ireland I see nothing in the world wrong with it!

Biggins

The Scientician wrote: »

The funny thing is I'm fairly sure "sham" marriages aren't illegal so what's the actual point of the program?

To expose financial fraud? To expose gaps in the social welfare system that some here seem to be always just giving out about? To show there are still people out there that think its ok to take whats not theirs, while other genuine cases put in more hard work to gain similar?

Sham marriages are wrong - plain and simple - and yes, they are illegal as if for the defrauding of the state coffers (your contributed money) alone!

bobbysands81

wolfpawnat wrote: »

There is a Polish lady married to a Nigerian fella living next door to me, they have 2 kids and both of them work and pay a nanny to mind their children. The only payment they get off the government is children's allowance and to be honest with you since they are both contributing taxes to Ireland I see nothing in the world wrong with it!

They sound like the overwhelming majority of "foreigners" in Ireland, they just want to contribute to society and get on with their lives.

The Scientician

Biggins wrote: »

To expose financial fraud? To expose gaps in the social welfare system that some here seem to be always just giving out about? To show there are still people out there that think its ok to take whats not theirs, while other genuine cases put in more hard work to gain similar?

Sham marriages are wrong - plain and simple - and yes, they are illegal as if for the defrauding of the state coffers (your contributed money) alone!

But surely fraud is a separate thing to the sham marriage. If the sham marriage in and of itself isn't legally dubious, any benefits derived from it akin to a non-sham marriage, although immoral aren't fraud. How does a sham marriage allow anyone to fleece the state coffers (not saying it doesn't I just can't think of how it does)?

TheZohanS

There are tons of sham marriages in this country. I was dating a Latvian girl a few years ago and she was showing me some of her photos from home, next thing she got onto a new set of pics and I recognised the hotel in them. She was in a pic with a dude and she was wearing a very nice ensemble, a wedding dress! I asked he WTF was that all about and she told me she was married before and started to give a cock and bull story about it being over a year ago yadda yadda. The registration plate on one of the cars gave her game away, pic was only a month old. She married a guy so he could get a visa here and it turned out she was paid €2k for doing it. She said it's not uncommon.

Biggins

The Scientician wrote: »

...How does a sham marriage allow anyone to fleece the state coffers (not saying it doesn't I just can't think of how it does)?

You clearly need to learn a bit more.

A good starting point:

* http://www.drogheda-independent.ie/news/drogheda-sham-marriages-probe-2414465.html
* http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2010/1009/1224280691092.html
* http://www.independent.ie/national-news/lsquosham-marriagersquo-suspects-arrested-at-armagh-wedding-2837668.html

There was one Irish woman recently in Drogheda whom was getting married many times to different people (and getting paid for it) so that others could be able then to eventually avail of state benefits, etc, that they would normally not have been entitled to.

The Scientician

Biggins wrote: »

You clearly need to learn a bit more.

A good starting point:

* http://www.drogheda-independent.ie/news/drogheda-sham-marriages-probe-2414465.html
* http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2010/1009/1224280691092.html
* http://www.independent.ie/national-news/lsquosham-marriagersquo-suspects-arrested-at-armagh-wedding-2837668.html

There was one Irish woman recently in Drogheda whom was getting married many times to different people (and getting paid for it) so that others could be able then to eventually avail of state benefits, etc, that they would normally not have been entitled to.

From one of your linked articles:

A “marriage of convenience” for money or to circumvent Irish immigration law is not illegal in Ireland. Neither is it possible to prevent someone getting married because they are illegally resident in the State, which makes efforts to block the scam difficult.

One of your links refers to Northern Ireland, where there is extant law to deal with sham marriages. Your link also shows that a genuine international marriage was erroneously blocked.

The stuff you're talking about, multiple marriage, abuse, and other fraud are of course illegal, as well they should be, but the very act of marrying someone to secure residence or other rights in this country, and not for love, isn't. I suppose it's immoral but it's not criminal. Again, there is often concomitant illegal behaviour, but the marriages are legit in the eyes of the law.

Biggins

The Scientician wrote: »

...the very act of marrying someone to secure residence or other rights in this country, and not for love, isn't. I suppose it's immoral but it's not criminal.

Christ, I can't believe your that uninformed.
Either your low-level trolling or uneducated in such matters.

Let me spell it out for you.

* If you enter into a marriage just to try claim residency in ANY European (and many others ones) state - its false claiming and making a declaration on a legal application and any subsequent government provided and signed state documents.

* Marriages where as in the recent case of one Drogheda woman (who got 'married' a number of times) just to facilitate further fraud by her new partner, is itself fraud also. Why do you think she was charged for god sake if it wasn't illegal! Jeasus!
They are cases of defrauding the state (one example charge: 'assisting unlawful immigration' - "I suppose it's immoral but it's not criminal" - so YES, it is criminal!) where in actual fact, they are otherwise not entitled to residency and social security, they should NOT be getting.
What do you not get about that!

The Scientician wrote: »

......but the marriages are legit in the eyes of the law.

NO - sham marriages are NOT legit in the eyes of the law.

It been quoted that maybe one in six marriages are a sham by the way: http://www.herald.ie/news/oneinsix-irish-marriages-is-a-migrant-sham-2300285.html

Pdfile

TheZohan wrote: »

There are tons of sham marriages in this country. I was dating a Latvian girl a few years ago and she was showing me some of her photos from home, next thing she got onto a new set of pics and I recognised the hotel in them. She was in a pic with a dude and she was wearing a very nice ensemble, a wedding dress! I asked he WTF was that all about and she told me she was married before and started to give a cock and bull story about it being over a year ago yadda yadda. The registration plate on one of the cars gave her game away, pic was only a month old. She married a guy so he could get a visa here and it turned out she was paid €2k for doing it. She said it's not uncommon.

its not, i know of a few lads from the middle east ( not racist, just happen to be from their ) who have or are looking to do the same...

not because they want to but they have no choice.

K-9

Biggins wrote: »

* If you enter into a marriage just to try claim residency in ANY European (and many others ones) state - its false claiming and making a declaration on a legal application and any subsequent government provided and signed state documents.

Bigamy as well I would have thought!

Mike 1972

The Scientician wrote: »

the very act of marrying someone to secure residence or other rights in this country, and not for love, isn't. I suppose it's immoral but it's not criminal.

Thats a matter of opinion really.

The Scientician

Biggins wrote: »

* If you enter into a marriage just to try claim residency in ANY European (and many others ones) state - its false claiming and making a declaration on a legal application and any subsequent government provided and signed state documents.

* Marriages where as in the recent case of one Drogheda woman (who got 'married' a number of times) just to facilitate further fraud by her new partner, is itself fraud also. Why do you think she was charged for god sake if it wasn't illegal! Jeasus!
They are cases of defrauding the state (one example charge: 'assisting unlawful immigration') where in actual fact, they are otherwise not entitled to residency and social security, they should NOT be getting.
What do you not get about that!

NO - sham marriages are NOT legit in the eyes of the law.

I'm not trolling you. Your cite said that sham marriage isn't illegal in Ireland, therefore they are legit in the eyes of the law, unless there's some other third possibility I'm not considering.

The case of multiple marriage is of course fraud, because it's illegal to do so in this juridiction.

The cite of the person from Drogheda, she was charged in a British court where there seems to be extant laws pertaining to sham marriages.
You haven't yet shown me that marriage of convenience is illegal in the Republic Of Ireland. Other charges seem related to illegal activities RELATED to the sham marriages but not the actual marriages themselves.

There's a distinct difference between saying they shouldn't be allowed do something and there being legal recourse for preventing people from doing something. It's gaming the system, when it's done with no other laws broken. I'm not a supporter of sham marriage, just pointing that out.

Another quote from one of your cites:

However, registrars have only limited powers to block marriages and gardai are investigating alleged bogus marriages which are often arranged by failed asylum seekers or former students who no longer have permission to remain in Ireland.

And another:

Anyone has the right to object to a marriage during the three-month notice period before the ceremony takes place. If an objection is lodged, the registrar must investigate the marriage before it can proceed. But it remains unclear if registrars have the necessary legal powers to block the marriages, and there are fears they could be sued by couples.

Again, it's not clear to me that a person from Nigeria marrying a person from Latvia, because they want to remain in the Republic Of Ireland, has broken any laws. It's immoral, but it's not illegal as far as any of those articles you've linked me to say.

Biggins

The Scientician wrote: »

I'm not trolling you. Your cite said that sham marriage isn't illegal in Ireland, therefore they are legit in the eyes of the law, unless there's some other third possibility I'm not considering.

The case of multiple marriage is of course fraud, because it's illegal to do so in this juridiction.

The cite of the person from Drogheda, she was charged in a British court where there seems to be extant laws pertaining to sham marriages.
You haven't yet shown me that marriage of convenience is illegal in the Republic Of Ireland. Other charges seem related to illegal activities RELATED to the sham marriages but not the actual marriages themselves.

There's a distinct difference between saying they shouldn't be allowed do something and there being legal recourse for preventing people from doing something. It's gaming the system, when it's done with no other laws broken. I'm not a supporter of sham marriage, just pointing that out.

Another quote from one of your cites:

And another:

Again, it's not clear to me that a person from Nigeria marrying a person from Latvia, because they want to remain in the Republic Of Ireland, has broken any laws. It's immoral, but it's not illegal as far as any of those articles you've linked me to say.

Dear gawd: go study up on Irish law.

One charge alone that applies in this country as well is as others - and I've ALREADY mentioned this - is "assisting unlawful immigration"

Besides attempting to defraud state benefit and false claiming residency - which themselves are illegal actions - you need to learn a little more.

Its the breaking of governing legislation Directive 2004/38EC and Ireland has further adapted this law into ireland transposed it into domestic law under Regulation (free movement of persons) (no2) regulations 2006. The breaking of which is done by the entering into of a sham marriage (thru committing section 25 (a) and (b) ).

Now PLEASE do not state they are not illegal.
You are wrong.

I don't believe for one second you that uninformed - please tell us so!

Why would the gardi be investigating 16 HERE or 400 THERE if they were not illegal?

The scam exploits an EU directive on free movement that provides residency rights for non-EU citizens who marry EU nationals (although marriage to an Irish citizen would not provide these residency rights.)

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2010/1009/1224280691092.html

The exploiting of that directive is ILLEGAL to do.

The Scientician

Biggins wrote: »

Now PLEASE do not state they are not illegal.
You are wrong.

I was quoting from your linked articles that said that sham marriages in Ireland weren't illegal. If they are illegal why do all the articles not say that? I'm genuinely confused about that matter.

I see from your subsequent links that you're absolutely right vís-a-vís Directive 2004/38EC etc. So all these articles contain a factual error. Thanks for taking the time to clarify the legality. Sometimes it takes a while for things to sink in.

wolfpawnat

My sister in law is getting married next weekend to a guy who married a woman while in college for the grand fee of £10,000 sterling (long time ago now) but they have had to go through all sorts of hoops to get married in a church. Is it the same for civil ceremonies, that in itself should weed out a lot of these people.

Biggins

wolfpawnat wrote: »

My sister in law is getting married next weekend to a guy who married a woman while in college for the grand fee of £10,000 sterling (long time ago now) but they have had to go through all sorts of hoops to get married in a church. Is it the same for civil ceremonies, that in itself should weed out a lot of these people.

Did the guy subsequently get a divorce from the first marriage?
If so, your sister in law's marriage would be legal.
If not, the legal consequences as to property rights besides other abilities to claim subsequent marriage benefits, could be effected - even to the point of, if the chap was/is caught, any money/state benefits/etc might have to be paid back by all concerned!

wolfpawnat

Biggins wrote: »

Did the guy subsequently get a divorce from the first marriage?
If so, your sister in law's marriage would be legal.
If not, the legal consequences as to property rights besides other abilities to claim subsequent marriage benefits, could be effected - even to the point of, if the chap was/is caught, any money/state benefits/etc might have to be paid back by all concerned!

Oh he divorced the other one after a month of marriage, the priest demanded a letter of freedom from both of them demanding proof they are free to marry.

But my question was surely the civil marriages are request the same?

Biggins

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Oh he divorced the other one after a month of marriage, the priest demanded a letter of freedom from both of them demanding proof they are free to marry.

But my question was surely the civil marriages are request the same?

In civil marriages you have to show quite clearly in paperwork through signed statements, etc, there is no legal impediment to you going ahead with the requested marriage.
As part of your application for marriage, you have to state details of any and all details of previous marriages - including having to produce the legal paperwork that shows your divorced from prior marriage.
If you leave something out or in deliberateness misconstrue anything, the later marriage could be said by a good judge/prosecutor/solicitor to be null and void.
This by knock-on effect might have subsequent effect on additional rights relating to paternity and property issues, be it while alive or if one dies.

As your detailing with the state more so thru paperwork on the (actual wedding) day for the more public civil document to be signed in front of witnesses, sometimes there is a bit more paperwork and checks.

scholar007

The Scientician wrote: »

The latest in TV3's recent cavalcade of crap documentaries about the rotten heart of modern Ireland. I, for one, can't wait to see it. I'm especially looking forward to seeing the bit where he chases the sham marriage counsellor down Dublin's O'Connell St.

What, TV3 are making a documentary about people from Tuam getting married?

Nodin

wolfpawnat wrote: »

There is a Polish lady married to a Nigerian fella living next door to me, they have 2 kids and both of them work and pay a nanny to mind their children. The only payment they get off the government is children's allowance and to be honest with you since they are both contributing taxes to Ireland I see nothing in the world wrong with it!

I was referring to the programme......

charlemont

Ten years ago I was asked by my friend who is originally from Russia to marry his sister, I declined.

Siuin

charlemont wrote: »

Ten years ago I was asked by my friend who is originally from Russia to marry his sister, I declined.

You... turned down a Russian woman?? :O
Your loss, my friend...!

Biggins

Siuin wrote: »

You... turned down a Russian woman?? :O
Your loss, my friend...!

Ten years ago - she could have been an Olympic shotputter!
Have ya seen those wimms! Scary! LOL

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=russian+Olympic+shotputter&hl=en&biw=1024&bih=1165&tbm=isch&tbnid=U9VT9HouySqyJM:&imgrefurl=http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-08/24/content_368287.htm&docid=tDAU7kOcpmxELM&w=350&h=449&ei=M1RqTvSbCImg-wb6nZX2BA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=150&vpy=120&dur=2565&hovh=254&hovw=198&tx=120&ty=146&page=1&tbnh=165&tbnw=129&start=0&ndsp=27&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0

charlemont

Siuin wrote: »

You... turned down a Russian woman?? :O
Your loss, my friend...!

I just couldn't trust him as it could have turned dodgy.

wolfpawnat

Nodin wrote: »

I was referring to the programme......

Oh I know, I was just dashing TV3 mumbo jumbo

charlemont

Biggins wrote: »

Ten years ago - she could have been an Olympic shotputter!
Have ya seen those wimms! Scary! LOL

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=russian+Olympic+shotputter&hl=en&biw=1024&bih=1165&tbm=isch&tbnid=U9VT9HouySqyJM:&imgrefurl=http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-08/24/content_368287.htm&docid=tDAU7kOcpmxELM&w=350&h=449&ei=M1RqTvSbCImg-wb6nZX2BA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=150&vpy=120&dur=2565&hovh=254&hovw=198&tx=120&ty=146&page=1&tbnh=165&tbnw=129&start=0&ndsp=27&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0

Thats one scary looking woman. Id rather bang the Scottish one who done her brother in the lift.

I have been aware of this phenomenon, I knew a couple who worked together who married for a fee so that he could get a visa to live and work full time in Ireland. I've also gone out with a non EU student who made it pretty obvious he wouldn't have dated an Irish girl if not for the marriage and visa opportunity.

Any of the non EU folks I knew looking to marry EU residents wanted to WORK here legally, not just to claim benefits.

EGAR

That is nothing new. I was asked over 20 years ago when I was at Uni if I would marry a Chinese student for 10 grand. I declined politely.

Mike 1972

EGAR wrote: »

That is nothing new. I was asked over 20 years ago when I was at Uni if I would marry a Chinese student for 10 grand. I declined politely.

Now if theyd said fifteen........ :pac:

EGAR

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Now if theyd said fifteen........ :pac:

Hahaha, not even at 20 + - seriously that was 20 years ago, surely the price must have gone up by now? But it wasn't in Ireland.

Mike 1972

EGAR wrote: »

seriously that was 20 years ago, surely the price must have gone up by now?.

I dunno

With the recession and wotnot it might be a case of you having to pay them :eek:

u_c_thesecond

The Scientician wrote: »

The latest in TV3's recent cavalcade of crap documentaries about the rotten heart of modern Ireland. I, for one, can't wait to see it. I'm especially looking forward to seeing the bit where he chases the sham marriage counsellor down Dublin's O'Connell St.

funny utv did this 6 months ago (except in england) and showed a pile of people willing to push through marriages for the right price!

some marriages are real - i know a polish man dating an irish woman for 5 years before they got married- and the amount of crap they went through was a joke, they had social workers at their house (as she had a child) as people complained he was with her for a passport

:eek:

Mike 1972

u_c_thesecond wrote: »

some marriages are real - i know a polish man dating an irish woman for 5 years before they got married

Why would a marriage where both parties were from an EU country be considered in any way suspect

tigger123

Biggins wrote: »

The Scientician wrote: »

The funny thing is I'm fairly sure "sham" marriages aren't illegal so what's the actual point of the program?

To expose financial fraud? To expose gaps in the social welfare system that some here seem to be always just giving out about? To show there are still people out there that think its ok to take whats not theirs, while other genuine cases put in more hard work to gain similar?

Sham marriages are wrong - plain and simple - and yes, they are illegal as if for the defrauding of the state coffers (your contributed money) alone!

'Sham marriages' or 'marriages of convenience' are not illegal. It's up to the legislative powers that be to change the law. They're not ethically correct, but they're not illegal.

Mike 1972

tigger123 wrote: »

'Sham marriages' or 'marriages of convenience' are not illegal. It's up to the legislative powers that be to change the law.

As long as the couple live together (or make a decent pretence thereof) for a few years after the marriage its pretty much impossible to prove anyway.

Besides the term 'marriage of convenience' doesnt just apply to those undertaken for immigration purposes most marriages of convenience in point of fact take place between citizens of the same country.

Shiroki

Sure if I want to hear people complain I'll just sit on AH :pac:

Biggins

tigger123 wrote: »

'Sham marriages' or 'marriages of convenience' are not illegal. It's up to the legislative powers that be to change the law. They're not ethically correct, but they're not illegal.

'Marriages of convenience' are not illegal as some are not just about circumventing state and European law but part of a culture/faith/way of life, etc.
Sham marriages however are a different story. They are created from the outset to circumvent already mentioned laws - and as such in those laws (if you bother to actually check), the precepts for circumventing them have already been accounted for and penalties laid out - deeming such actions illegal.

Don't mix 'Marriages of convenience' too much with 'Sham Marriages' - oft times they are quite separate if one bothers to look at the facts of the differentiation marriages.

Vernicious

Almost everything Biggins has written on this thread is incorrect.

Reg 25 of the 2006 SI provides:
25.  A person who -
(a)  being a person to whom these Regulations apply, fails to comply with any requirement of these Regulations or under these Regulations, or
(b)  asserts an entitlement to any rights under these Regulations on the basis of information which he or she knows to be false or misleading in a material particular,
shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding €5,000 or to a term of imprisonment not exceeding 12 months, or both.

'sham marriage' is not a term known to law. 'Marriages of convenience' are referenced in Article 35 of Directive 2094/38.

Biggins's, and many others', errors on this arise, I think, from a presumption that we know what is the opposite of a 'sham' marriage, whether as a matter of law, morality, or fact.

A marriage is a marriage is a marriage. If we want to make some illegal, we have to create positive law to do this. We haven't done that. Hence, supposed sham marriages (I.e., morally dubious, possibly exploitative, and usually designed to achieve a legal benefit) that are marriages of convenience can be addressed using national legislation, and indeed arguably should be in light of article 35 of Directive 2004/38.

walrusgumble

Deleted User wrote: »

I have been aware of this phenomenon, I knew a couple who worked together who married for a fee so that he could get a visa to live and work full time in Ireland. I've also gone out with a non EU student who made it pretty obvious he wouldn't have dated an Irish girl if not for the marriage and visa opportunity.

Any of the non EU folks I knew looking to marry EU residents wanted to WORK here legally, not just to claim benefits.

Well, if he was going out with an Irish girl, who lived in Ireland and never moved to another EU state, then , he would be a gob ****e as he could not get residence under EU law on basis of relationship with Irish citizen (who has not exercised EU rights)

Sir Oxman

'Save Ireland's SNA's' is next on the list for TV3 - I swear I saw an ad for it last night

TV3 the same channel that gave us the Georgia Salpa and Callum Best relationship, which by the way had nothing to do with their new ground breaking TV show The Salon :rolleyes: