Dublin Bus route 84 - changing from UCD to Blackrock?

dfx-

AlekSmart wrote: »

There appears to be,yet again a reversion to Local Area Networking with the Bray Area routes rather than an attempt to open up Bray to bus borne explorers from the far northern fringes of our Capital.....:o

Aw, I was looking forward to:

Balbriggan to Kilmacanogue 145A
via Heuston Stn/An Lár

dublinman1990

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Where did you hear that they will be making 46a adjustments? What adjustments will be made? Will it be routing adjustments or frequency adjustments or both?

If the 45 and 84 are indeed to be merged as per the many rumors going around, they should at least have a half hourly or better frequency at peak times. While Clonkeen Road lies within close range of the 4 and 46a routes in certain parts, it still acts as a connecting road for Cherrywood, Cabinteely, Cornelscourt, Deansgrange and Blackrock. As such, there is a strong business case for a better service between these areas. I am aware that Clonkeen Road is serviced by the 63 bus route. However, it's alignment is, by and large, completely different to the overall purpose and routing of the 84 and 45.

In my opinion, the under-usage of Clonkeen Road by buses is one of the main reasons why buses aren't gathering strong loadings. I have said it before and I will say it again, skeleton routes or routes with a frequency of 45 minutes or lower will not do as well as ones that come every 30 minutes or more. This is simply because frequency sells. The 46a is a route that does well because it is very frequent. This is the exact same with the 145. The prospect of waiting at a bus stop for any more than 30 minutes is daunting and isn't exactly an incentive for people to use such a service. While Real Time Passenger Information and other timing mechanisms are a huge help, routes with a frequency of 30 minutes or lower don't offer the amount of flexibility as a route with higher frequency.

You just contradicted yourself in some parts of your post,

The bus companies, have to lower the frequency to attempt to make the routes more attractive, otherwise it will just would not work.

The frequency on the 46a is lower than 30 minutes to make it more attractive, it is currently at 8 minutes at both peak times and off peak.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Network-Direct/Network-Direct---Implemented-Phases/Stillorgan/Stillorgan-FAQs/

I do agree that waiting more than 30 minutes is too long for a bus to make it more attractive. The bus service is not that bad in most cases around Monkstown Avenue and Monkstown Farm, especially the current 4 timetables at certain times is pretty poor. For three days in one week, I had seen two 4's going towards Monkstown Avenue at between the times of 12 and 1pm, and then again at between 3 and 4pm.

For one night, I was waiting for up to about 45 minutes for it to get me home. I remember thinking to myself, what a complete joke!

There is a new route called 175 which will be going to help out the 63 to make the routes more attractive to customers.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Network-Direct/Network-Direct---Implemented-Phases/Ballinteer--Dundrum--Milltown--Ranelagh--Beaumont1/

That frequency I heard is at 30 minutes at peak, and at 45 minutes at off peak.

I am hoping that will improve things though there.

I do think that it will be a good and fair way for DB to reroute the 84 through Clonkeen Road if it replaces the 45.

A hope of complimenting the three routes in these areas will a huge help, I think.

patrickbrophy18

dublinman1990 wrote: »

You just contradicted yourself in some parts of your post

Where did I contradict myself?

I was merely pointing out that routes such as the 46A and 145 are attractive because of their frequency. This makes a route more reliable. It also offers flexibility to commuters so that they don't have to time each service to a tee. For example, if you use a service which comes every 45 minutes and you miss it, you're screwed because you have to wait another 45 minutes. A 45 minute gap for the next service could spell the difference between having a job or not. This is currently the case with the 45, 84, and 59. This is exacerbated further if the bus driver decides to leave 10 minutes early which happens quite often.

On the other hand, if you use a service like the 46A or 145 and you miss one, you won't be waiting too long for another one. As such, they are commuter friendly. While they have been known to travel in convoy, I never had to wait longer than 15 minutes to board one.

dublinman1990 wrote: »

The bus companies, have to lower the frequency to attempt to make the routes more attractive, otherwise it will just would not work.

What do you mean here?

How is a less frequent route more attractive?

Are you saying that buses such as the 46A wouldn't do as well as they are if other routes offered a higher frequency?

Cookie_Monster

dublinman1990 wrote: »

You just contradicted yourself in some parts of your post,

The bus companies, have to lower the frequency to attempt to make the routes more attractive, otherwise it will just would not work.

lowering frequency does not make a route more attractive, I'd love an explanation of how you think that would work!

dublinman1990 wrote: »

The frequency on the 46a is lower than 30 minutes to make it more attractive, it is currently at 8 minutes at both peak times and off peak.

8 minutes is a higher frequency than 30 and at no point in the timetable is the frequency anywhere near the lower than 30 mins you state.

coylemj

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

In my opinion, the under-usage of Clonkeen Road by buses is one of the main reasons why buses aren't gathering strong loadings. I have said it before and I will say it again, skeleton routes or routes with a frequency of 45 minutes or lower will not do as well as ones that come every 30 minutes or more.

Your point is borne out by the almost complete absence of passengers waiting at bus stops (three on each side) on Clonkeen Road. I pass up and down the road several times a week and I wonder why DB even bothers running the 45 'service' at all. The reverse is the case at the bus stop by Deansgrange library where a 46A stops every 10 minutes or so as a result of which there is almost always a few people waiting.

the groutch

that's what patrick is getting at
if the 45 still ran at it's old frequency of one every 15-20 minutes, you'd have a fair whack of people waiting for it on clonkeen road

The_Wrecker

the groutch wrote: »

that's what patrick is getting at
if the 45 still ran at it's old frequency of one every 15-20 minutes, you'd have a fair whack of people waiting for it on clonkeen road

I drove the 45s to about 2007 and off peak was dying then. Around the same time they revamped the Rock rd causing months of delays and this was the killer. The only whack of people waiting now would be around Monaloe when the school kicks out.

OssianSmyth

So there will be a consultation...

http://www.braypeople.ie/news/no-cuts-to-the-bus-routes-in-north-wicklow-3014063.html

...DUBLIN BUS has given a commitment not to implement any cuts to the 45 or 84 bus routes, and to begin a public consultation process to see what the needs of the public are
...
Mr. Rafferty said that nothing was finalised, but that internal plans had been going on at Dublin bus for around eight months. The most controversial proposal tabled was to direct the 84 to Blackrock, with the idea that passengers from Newcastle, Kilcoole and Greystones could link with the 145 in Bray to go on into town.

It was proposed that the 45 be scrapped altogether, and replaced with an 84A in to Blackrock.

'It's not written in stone,' said Mr. Sanders. ' We take on board the passion we see hear tonight and we get the message loud and clear.'

LXFlyer

Which does reinforce my point that it is best to take what a driver might say as "definitely going to happen" with a pinch of salt.

At the end of the day the company are going to be looking at a range of options and possible changes at any given time and many may never see the light of day.

Cookie_Monster

more consultation :rolleyes:

CIE

dublinman1990 wrote: »

The bus companies, have to lower the frequency to attempt to make the routes more attractive, otherwise it will just would not work

No, you got that completely backwards. Frequency sells.

the wrecker wrote: »

I drove the 45s to about 2007 and off peak was dying then. Around the same time they revamped the Rock rd causing months of delays and this was the killer. The only whack of people waiting now would be around Monaloe when the school kicks out

So unreliability caused by road works affected the route useage. That's no excuse to start drastically lowering frequency. If there were major works on any other corridor affecting a certain route's reliability, does that mean that certain routes along that corridor also have to be surreptitiously cut? At one time, that corridor had not only the frequent 45, but also the equally-frequent 113 DART feeder route to/from Blackrock station. The population hasn't decreased since those days; that means that the market is still there.

And as for the 84, was there any real purpose in disconnecting its local trips from the city centre, leaving only the 84X to reach the city? Is there no possibility of anyone from Kilcoole or Newcastle needing to ride to Donnybrook or Ballsbridge? (Never mind the Esplanade in Bray, which used to be served quite frequently by both 45 and 45A, but now can't be reached even from Poolbeg Street or Burgh Quay where the 45 used to run from, or from anywhere else due to the 45 going there so infrequently now.)

the groutch

CIE wrote: »

At one time, that corridor had not only the frequent 45, but also the equally-frequent 113 DART feeder route to/from Blackrock station.

The 113, is that the one that ran from The Park in Cabinteely?

patrickbrophy18

While we're on the subject of "frequency sells", I have noticed an increase in passengers using the number 8 bus since they increased the amount of journeys on it. The other day when I got it to Blackrock there were roughly eight people on it when it got to Castlepark Road. It mightn't be a huge loading but, it certainly is decent considering that it wasn't even a mile into it's journey. Before anyone says it, a quarter of this loading was OAP's and there weren't any disabled passengers. As such, the bulk of them paid for their journey. This was at 2:30 off peak.

bubbagum

Was told by a driver yesterday that this is definitely happening in march.
The public consultation process is just smoke and mirrors, it is a done deal and they are working on the timetable.
Managements plans are for the 84 to go from Kilcoole to Blackrock, and the 45 is to be cancelled.
The 45 drivers based in Donnybrook are to be redeployed on other routes.
There are four 45 drivers based is Bray depot and they are to be put on a new route The 84a.
The driver described the 84a as a stroke of management genius, it is to go from Bray Train Station to Blackrock train station.
In the drivers words "if the 45 is been cancelled because it is not carrying passengers how do management think the 84a is going to do any better, its a bad idea".
The drivers suggested that the new improved 84 should go beyond Blackrock to St.Vincents hospital and turn up Nutley lane onto the N11 and terminate in UCD.
This route would then stand a chance of carrying passengers, management refused point blank to entertain the idea.
The drivers are not happy about this realignment as that realize that it will not work, they believe the master plan is to kill off the 84 as well.

LXFlyer

For goodness sakes - we have heard this sort of thing before with other routes and it has turned out to be only half right or even completely wrong. All you are hearing are internal DB discussions about what *might* happen.

As if a driver is going to know what final decision management may make (no disrespect to drivers on the board but that is not within their professional remit).

DB have committed to going to public consultation on any changes. They have not even done this yet. On previous occasions they have changed plans following negative public reaction. So I would certainly not take anything as final yet.

Of course DB would be working on schedules - they would have to do that anyway to figure out what resources would be needed for the various options - these things tend to have a very long drawn out period to develop as scheduling is very complex.

All that is happening is that the company is going through the process of coming up with proposals - these could change (as in other areas) following public consultation.

Given your track record in all of your four posts on boards.ie has been to try and create hysteria and indeed suggest that every plan is final and "done and dusted" I think frankly you need to step back and stop posting potential plans that may yet be completely changed.

Nothing is going to happen until after a formal consultation takes place.

Why not wait until that happens rather than posting plans that may still change?

The_Wrecker

bubbagum wrote: »

Was told by a driver yesterday that this is definitely happening in march.
The public consultation process is just smoke and mirrors, it is a done deal and they are working on the timetable.
Managements plans are for the 84 to go from Kilcoole to Blackrock, and the 45 is to be cancelled.
The 45 drivers based in Donnybrook are to be redeployed on other routes.
There are four 45 drivers based is Bray depot and they are to be put on a new route The 84a.
The driver described the 84a as a stroke of management genius, it is to go from Bray Train Station to Blackrock train station.
In the drivers words "if the 45 is been cancelled because it is not carrying passengers how do management think the 84a is going to do any better, its a bad idea".
The drivers suggested that the new improved 84 should go beyond Blackrock to St.Vincents hospital and turn up Nutley lane onto the N11 and terminate in UCD.
This route would then stand a chance of carrying passengers, management refused point blank to entertain the idea.
The drivers are not happy about this realignment as that realize that it will not work, they believe the master plan is to kill off the 84 as well.

The only route being done in March is the 18's schedule.

OssianSmyth

So the changes have been announced this Friday evening to take place in a week's time.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/News-Centre/General-News/Changes-to-Routes-45-45a-84-and-84x/

The major change is that route 84 and route 45 have been combined to form a new route that terminates in Blackrock village. This new service will only have the same frequency as the old 45. There are some minor improvements but generally this seems to be a removal of buses and a shortening of routes.

The new service along Deansgrange and Clonkeen Road will be hourly. That will attract very few passengers.

LXFlyer

Are there that many passengers along that stretch of road to attract, given most passengers will choose the existing high frequency 46a and 145 services?

CIE

lxflyer wrote: »

Are there that many passengers along that stretch of road to attract, given most passengers will choose the existing high frequency 46a and 145 services?

Choose or not have a choice? After all, turning the 84 into a new version of the old route 113 doesn't really up the choices. Cutting the 33 off from the city did not work either.

The_Wrecker

lxflyer wrote: »

Are there that many passengers along that stretch of road to attract, given most passengers will choose the existing high frequency 46a and 145 services?

When i drove the 45 in 2005 at peak you picked up a good few (15/20) but the 46D did the rest.

the groutch

hard to figure out where in Blackrock it terminates/departs.
the use of the name Temple Road suggest they're going to ressurect the old 4 stop just short of Carysfort Avenue as a terminus, and use the stop outside the church as the departure point

dublinman1990

the groutch wrote: »

hard to figure out where in Blackrock it terminates/departs.
the use of the name Temple Road suggest they're going to ressurect the old 4 stop just short of Carysfort Avenue as a terminus, and use the stop outside the church as the departure point

:eek::eek:

From a Blackrock local's perspective; that won't happen. The bus would have to turn right into the village past Superquinn and than skip the stop outside Starbucks Coffee Shop (Stop No. 3033) until it stops outside the church. I know that the driver should turn right until passing 4 pairs of traffic lights because there is no right turn outside PTSB and the Garda Station from the dual carriageway.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/RTPI/Sources-of-Real-Time-Information/?searchtype=map&searchquery=(53.301924,-6.178183,3033)

I know the roads around Temple Hill/Road very well. If the 84 was attempting to terminate at Temple Road; it would then have to go through Newtown Avenue where the current 45 goes along with the 7 & 8. Than when it reaches the village, it has to turn left to continue on to the church. I think myself that it is a stupid way to use a bus terminus. The last stop would be the back of Blackrock Church; this would result in an extra 2/3 minute walk to the village.

If the 84's last stop was say (for initial purposes) Blackrock DART Station; it should continue down past the church from the dual carriageway; like the former 114 stretch via Newtown Park Avenue. It should finish at the DART Station. It will continue to go the same way in the opposite direction from the DART Station to Newcastle.

Raphael

Arse biscuits, 84 was a godsend when trying to get from UCD to bray in rush hour, since the 145s from town are sardine tins. Hurray for the march of progress.

coylemj

As happened with the 47 update a few weeks ago, when you attempt to view a map of the revised 84 route, there is an error and you can't view it. Can they get anything right?