Voyager

De Bhál

I watched TNG followed by DS9 and now voyager, on the end of the fourth season.
Have to say I'm enjoying it.

After reading about it here I delayed watching it for fear it would be brutal.

nyarlothothep

I found the episodes somewhat watcheable, I'd end up sitting there watching them, even though I knew there were better things to do, its sort of ok until the later seasons where it drags out and you just want them to get home. Also they ruined the borg, Janeway made ethically dubious decisions on the basis of protocol or simply because she thought she was right and to hell with everyone else! All the Klingon episodes in Voy are the worst klingon episodes in Star Trek. With TNG one can reflect back on the episodes and think, yeah that was pretty deep, moving, interesting but I never think of Voy episodes except for Course Oblivion, that was badass.

De Bhál

How did they ruin the Borg?

azezil

De Bhál wrote: »

How did they ruin the Borg?

They made them look like pansies. You'll see soon enough

De Bhál

Well they're through Borg space and I didn't get the feeling they were wimps.
Maybe I'm missing something, or maybe theres more to come.

De Bhál

Just after seeing a sperical shaped Borg ship in this episode. Could be interesting.

Amtmann

Great half-hour review of the Voyager pilot here.

Johnny Storm

De Bhál wrote: »

How did they ruin the Borg?

They flogged them to death, in the same way that DS9 ruined the Klingons.

Cookie_Monster

Johnny Storm wrote: »

They flogged them to death,

completely

in the same way that DS9 ruined the Klingons.

I wouldn't quite say that, there were some great stories with the Klingons in DS9 and a lot of good filling in the blanks too.
I especially love that one with Kor in it.

TheIrishGrover

Johnny Storm wrote: »

They flogged them to death, in the same way that DS9 ruined the Klingons.

Well.... I don't think DS9 flogged the Klingons to death. It did use them quite a bit alright but I thought it was OK. I loved Martok. They certainly didn't emasculate them the way Voyager did with the Borg. Remember TNG. The first time Q brought them to the Borg and they were kick-ass. You hoped that they would appear again and when they did in Best Of Both Worlds it was AWESOME. One ship doing all that damage, the damage to Picard. Sure, they wimped them down a fair bit on TNG by the end but I always took that group as being a weaker group. Almost like the herd losing losing the weakest elements for the survival of the herd as a whole. I never saw the borg in the later TNG episodes as "The Borg". I'm glad DS9 didn't go down the Borg route as The Dominion was a MUCH by far the most interesting regular enemy in the Trek-verse of you ask me (The Kazon anybody? Jaysus).
No, as I said the biggest problem I had with Voyager's treatment of the Borg was that they came up against them again and again with only the most minor of trouble and zero long term ramifications other than to introduce a one-dimensional lust object for the teenage fanboys.
It got so bad that I actually detested the Borg episodes by the end: "Oh, here we go, another Borg episode that promises so much but delivers nothing but the status quo"

IvySlayer

Yup, the Borg were overused in Voyager and underpowered.

The mere mention of the Borg in TNG sent everyone into shock. In Voyager in turned into meh another Cube.

Going after Tactical Cubes and taking anti-Borg pills to stop being assimilated...........

I liked the Seven of Nine story though. Interesting fact, the writers of DS9 pitched an idea that Sisko would encounter an assimilated Jennifer and try to free her from the collective.

De Bhál

Tremelo wrote: »

Great half-hour review of the Voyager pilot here.

Thanks for that

more of the same here
http://sfdebris.com/startrek.asp

Kiith

The Borg were the ultimate, faceless enemies that Star Trek had. Everyone else had personality to them, and had a reason for being bad (so to speak). They used to be the '1 ship destroys a fleet' type enemy, yet Voyager escaped unscathed time and time again (with no damage to the ship ever lasting more then an episode...though that's an all together different conplaint).

Voyager had it's great episodes, but they were few and far between. It also had a large amount of truly terrible episodes. I'll never forgive them for Naomi Wildman, Fairheaven and Flautter.

livinginkorea

Kiith wrote: »

The Borg were the ultimate, faceless enemies that Star Trek had. Everyone else had personality to them, and had a reason for being bad (so to speak). They used to be the '1 ship destroys a fleet' type enemy, yet Voyager escaped unscathed time and time again (with no damage to the ship ever lasting more then an episode...though that's an all together different conplaint).

Voyager had it's great episodes, but they were few and far between. It also had a large amount of truly terrible episodes. I'll never forgive them for Naomi Wildman, Fairheaven and Flautter.

Oh god, with the upside-down harp and everything. That was pretty cringe worthy.

Klingons in DS9 were good, definitely linked TNG and DS9 together which I liked. Voyager didn't really do that, except for Q and cameos from Riker, Barclay and Troi towards the end. One of the best things about DS9 was the story arc that lasted a couple of seasons. It was relatively new back then to do that and nowadays it's kinda the norm, except for cop shows and sitcoms. I really liked the connection made between episodes, hence the reason why I liked Lost, Games of Thrones, Prison Break (first two seasons), Supernatural, etc and not Law and Order, CSI, Friends, etc.

IvySlayer

Voyager would've rocked if

1) If the ship was a complete wreck and barely held together like Year of Hell.

2) The Maquis vs Starfleet arc was used more.

3) Villain of the week wasn't used so much. They tried with the Kazon and failed. They tried with the Borg and ruined them. DS9 did arcs so well. What doesn't make sense is that the Borg only occupied a small corner of space in the Delta Quadrant. Surely they would've had billion of worlds with all their technology, drones and ships. Maybe the 8472 war could've explained that.

4) Chakotay having the balls to mutiny against Janeway when she was being a dick.

Blowfish

Kiith wrote: »

Voyager had it's great episodes, but they were few and far between. It also had a large amount of truly terrible episodes. I'll never forgive them for Naomi Wildman, Fairheaven and Flautter.

Don't forget the space Nazi's. They were only marginally better than Enterprises equivalent.

azezil

IvySlayer wrote: »

3) Villain of the week wasn't used so much. They tried with the Kazon and failed. They tried with the Borg and ruined them. DS9 did arcs so well. What doesn't make sense is that the Borg only occupied a small corner of space in the Delta Quadrant. Surely they would've had billion of worlds with all their technology, drones and ships. Maybe the 8472 war could've explained that.

The Borg only seek to improve themselves, biologically and technologically. 7 of 9 explained to Neilix that they didn't bother with the Kazon because they felt they had nothing to offer, too primitive. That's a more likely explaination.

Also, what use would they have for planets? Once they've removed the resources they require I'd imagine they simply move on.

IvySlayer

During the 8472 war there's mention how many Borg planets were destroyed, and it was a lot. In First Contact you see an assimilated Earth with Borg structures.

seamus

IvySlayer wrote: »

Voyager would've rocked if

1) If the ship was a complete wreck and barely held together like Year of Hell.

2) The Maquis vs Starfleet arc was used more.

3) Villain of the week wasn't used so much. They tried with the Kazon and failed. They tried with the Borg and ruined them. DS9 did arcs so well. What doesn't make sense is that the Borg only occupied a small corner of space in the Delta Quadrant. Surely they would've had billion of worlds with all their technology, drones and ships. Maybe the 8472 war could've explained that.

4) Chakotay having the balls to mutiny against Janeway when she was being a dick.

Funny that you mention these. They all sound like things that would really have made Voyager a compelling watch. There was a lot of talk about Stargate Universe being the Voyager of the Stargate franchise. Yet SGU had all of the above - a ship permanently about to disintegrate, characters constantly at eachother's throat, a vicious, completely unrelatable enemy (they looked humanoid, that was about it), and a few attempted mutinies here and there.

Yet it tanked. Though I suppose context is important. Voyager was relatively unpopular despite the high regard DS9 is held in. SGU began in the context of ratings falling overall for the stargate franchise.

IvySlayer

Stargate??? RED ALERT

:mad:

You're on my ignore list now!!

\\// to my fellow trekkies.

Owen

Tremelo wrote: »

Great half-hour review of the Voyager pilot here.

Can I have that half hour of my life back?

nyarlothothep

IvySlayer wrote: »

Voyager would've rocked if

1) If the ship was a complete wreck and barely held together like Year of Hell.

2) The Maquis vs Starfleet arc was used more.

3) Villain of the week wasn't used so much. They tried with the Kazon and failed. They tried with the Borg and ruined them. DS9 did arcs so well. What doesn't make sense is that the Borg only occupied a small corner of space in the Delta Quadrant. Surely they would've had billion of worlds with all their technology, drones and ships. Maybe the 8472 war could've explained that.

4) Chakotay having the balls to mutiny against Janeway when she was being a dick.

A revolt would have been great with Janeway actually turning into a villain through her strict adherence to starfleet protocol to justify her own self serving ambitions, it would have turned everything upside down. The series could have ended with the two sides killing each other with only a few survivors making it back to the alpha quadrant, it could have been lord of the flies in space.

cyrusdvirus

seamus wrote: »

Funny that you mention these. They all sound like things that would really have made Voyager a compelling watch. There was a lot of talk about Stargate Universe being the Voyager of the Stargate franchise. Yet SGU had all of the above - a ship permanently about to disintegrate, characters constantly at eachother's throat, a vicious, completely unrelatable enemy (they looked humanoid, that was about it), and a few attempted mutinies here and there.

Yet it tanked. Though I suppose context is important. Voyager was relatively unpopular despite the high regard DS9 is held in. SGU began in the context of ratings falling overall for the stargate franchise.

IvySlayer wrote:

Voyager would've rocked if

1) If the ship was a complete wreck and barely held together like Year of Hell.

2) The Maquis vs Starfleet arc was used more.

3) Villain of the week wasn't used so much. They tried with the Kazon and failed. They tried with the Borg and ruined them. DS9 did arcs so well. What doesn't make sense is that the Borg only occupied a small corner of space in the Delta Quadrant. Surely they would've had billion of worlds with all their technology, drones and ships. Maybe the 8472 war could've explained that.

4) Chakotay having the balls to mutiny against Janeway when she was being a dick.

Gentlemen, I give you BSG

norrie rugger

seamus wrote: »

Funny that you mention these. They all sound like things that would really have made Voyager a compelling watch. There was a lot of talk about Stargate Universe being the Voyager of the Stargate franchise. Yet SGU had all of the above - a ship permanently about to disintegrate, characters constantly at eachother's throat, a vicious, completely unrelatable enemy (they looked humanoid, that was about it), and a few attempted mutinies here and there.

Yet it tanked. Though I suppose context is important. Voyager was relatively unpopular despite the high regard DS9 is held in. SGU began in the context of ratings falling overall for the stargate franchise.

SGU's main problems were two lead characters being dicks and easy communication with Earth (OK not so much the communication but having the characters relocate to Earth). Also a technological step back from what Atlantis established, as Ancient Tech

norrie rugger

gatecrash wrote: »

Gentlemen, I give you BSG

I give you Ronald D Moore

The premise has a lot of possibilities. Before it aired, I was at a convention in Pasadena, and Sternbach and Okuda were on stage, and they were answering questions from the audience about the new ship. It was all very technical, and they were talking about the fact that in the premise this ship was going to have problems. It wasn’t going to have unlimited sources of energy. It wasn’t going to have all the doodads of the Enterprise. It was going to be rougher, fending for themselves more, having to trade to get supplies that they want. That didn’t happen. It doesn’t happen at all, and it’s a lie to the audience. I think the audience intuitively knows when something is true and something is not true. Voyager is not true. If it were true, the ship would not look spic-and-span every week, after all these battles it goes through. How many times has the bridge been destroyed? How many shuttlecrafts have vanished, and another one just comes out of the oven? That kind of bull****ting the audience I think takes its toll. At some point the audience stops taking it seriously, because they know that this is not really the way this would happen. These people wouldn’t act like this

De Bhál

Tried to watch the 5th season episode Bride of Chaotica and had to turn it off.

Awful

norrie rugger

wait until you start looking back at the earlier seasons.

You will see the flaws, that get worse from here, were present from the start.

TheIrishGrover

De Bhál wrote: »

Tried to watch the 5th season episode Bride of Chaotica and had to turn it off.

Awful

Prime example of the laziness and general awfulness of Voyager. The reason for Bride Of Chaotica was that a couple (The bridge and engineering I believe) were destroyed in a fire so they had to rebuild them and this episode and a couple others barely showed the bridge (Minimal bridge scenes shot near end of production after rebuild I suppose). I can understand the producers not wanting to build a permanent "distressed" bridge showing permanent damage/scarring etc as this costs money to do. Altering sets etc. But here they were, rebuilding, almost from scratch, two of the most used sets in the series, and they didn't use the opportunity to rebuild different, stressed, battle-scarred sets. They could have used the opportunity to introduce a long term story arc with hurt, traumatised characters etc. Maybe even a minor death or two. I'm not talking main cast or anything but someone like, um, that vulcan who annoyed the klingon engineer whatshername. Instead, they gave us this "Year Of Hell" two parter that hit the big magic reset button they love so well.

I always thought that DS9 should have ended on a downer. It was the ballsiest of all the series by a country mile. It should have ended with the Dominion winning the war and the federation a battered and defeated group of races. The next Trek spinoff series should have been set maybe 100 years later with the federation a minor group trying to rebuild. Think Trek meets Firefly. Obviously lose the Whedon dialogue and characters ( Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Firefly but whedonesque characters and dialogue would be out of place in a Trek 'verse). If any Trek series had the balls to do this it would have been DS9 and I remember hoping it would happen once we knew there was another series in the works. Once this did not happen though I lost all interest in Trek. Watched and loved DS9 till its end but you knew KNEW, after the bold experiment that was DS9, that no matter what they said about the next series.... episode even. No matter how "gritty" they promised it was going to be, technobabble/reset button was going to be order of the day. And, 6 or 7 years from now, when they do decide the time it right for another series: "Gripping, gritty, grown up with long term consequences and real blah blah blah" It'll all be the same. Squeaky clean ships and "characters" with ramifications that last the length of a two-parter.

Cookie_Monster

was one of the better bits about Ent, that the ship evolved and was battered and slowly repaired rather than instant fix

livinginkorea

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

... the big magic reset button they love so well.

....

Says it all really. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed Voyager for the most part but it had so much potential and directions that it could have gone but instead went with the 'find-the-hidden-technological-answer-in-the-last-two-minutes-before-the-show-ends' which was such a cop out time and time again.

De Bhál

Going through the 5th season at the moment...it's all over the bloody place, some great stuff, some awful stuff and now it turns out they havn't been themselves since the Demon class planet. WHAT THE HELL.
WHAT THE HELLL....

and now Chacotay is tripping out that he's a boxer,
I know I started this thread not knowing why Voyager got so much bad press around here as I was enjoying it, but by God it's starting to disentegrate.
BIG TIME