Abbas Won't Back Down From Statehood Bid

cyberhog

The US made a pitiful attempt to try and dissuade the PA from going ahead with the UN statehood bid but Abbas has refused to back down. Obama is so out of touch on this issue he makes China look a champion of human rights.

09:29, September 08, 2011

BEIJING - China supports the establishment of an independent Palestinian state and appreciates efforts to push forward the process in peaceful talks, the Foreign Ministry said on Wednesday.

...


Answering questions on China's stance on the request, spokeswoman Jiang Yu said at the ministry's daily media briefing that having their own state is an inalienable right of the Palestinian people, and also the basis on which Palestine and Israel can achieve peaceful coexistence.

"We understand, respect and support Palestine's plan to submit the issue to the UN."

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90883/7591573.html


Obama should seriously have a rethink on this issue. Opposing Palestinian statehood will only create more anti-US sentiment throughout the world.

cookies221

I hope that Palestine succeeds in getting recognition as a sovereign state so that the next time they fire rockets over the border into Israeli cities, it will be an act of war between two armies rather than terrorists rebelling against an oppressor. The UN will be forced to side with Israel, allowing it to finally defend itself without the chorus of bleeding hearts crying on internet forums.

vellocet

cookies221 wrote: »

I hope that Palestine succeeds in getting recognition as a sovereign state so that the next time they fire rockets over the border into Israeli cities, it will be an act of war between two armies rather than terrorists rebelling against an oppressor. The UN will be forced to side with Israel, allowing it to finally defend itself without the chorus of bleeding hearts crying on internet forums.

Christ on a Honda. So when the Provo's bombed London it was an act of war from the Irish state?

The Israeli fanboys just don't quite get it, do they

Nodin

cookies221 wrote: »

I hope that Palestine succeeds in getting recognition as a sovereign state so that the next time they fire rockets over the border into Israeli cities, it will be an act of war between two armies rather than terrorists rebelling against an oppressor. The UN will be forced to side with Israel, allowing it to finally defend itself without the chorus of bleeding hearts crying on internet forums.

.....who is expanding where again? I'm fairly sure theres no Palestinian settlers creating no-go areas for Israelis in tel aviv.

anymore

Five palestine related threads on the first page of the political section of an irish site ???????
The mind boggles.

irishh_bob

cyberhog wrote: »

The US made a pitiful attempt to try and dissuade the PA from going ahead with the UN statehood bid but Abbas has refused to back down. Obama is so out of touch on this issue he makes China look a champion of human rights.





http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90883/7591573.html


Obama should seriously have a rethink on this issue. Opposing Palestinian statehood will only create more anti-US sentiment throughout the world.

remind me which country obama is president of and which country he is seeking re-election in , the vast vast majority of americans support israel over the pallestinians , obama is unpoular enough without getting behind this issue

Foghladh

And given Chinas long established record of championing the rights of oppressed peoples, their statement smacks of what exactly? The only reason the PRC makes statements like this is to heap a little pressure on the US, whom they know to be in a tight spot on this matter. It's the diplomatic equivalent of s***-stirring. One could ask why they were so loathe to formally recognise the Libyan TC when the rest of the world was actively pumping for them. I won't even go the Tibetan route but suffice to say that I feel any protestations of 'the rights of nationhood' by China should be taken in the context of Chinas interests

conorhal

cyberhog wrote: »

The US made a pitiful attempt to try and dissuade the PA from going ahead with the UN statehood bid but Abbas has refused to back down. Obama is so out of touch on this issue he makes China look a champion of human rights..

Obama should offer recognition to Tibet in return. That should shut them up. It's amazing how far off the 'human rights agenda' Tibet has slid since China became a superpower.......

Alopex

It amazes me Irish republicans support a Palestinian state given it is so similar an idea to the partition of ireland.

Hamas or some new hardliners will be the equivocation of the provos and will attack Israeli cities.

Israel will occupy the Palestinian state when this new state fails to control them and we'll be back to square one.

It isn't a viable solution.

Jelle1880

vellocet wrote: »

Christ on a Honda. So when the Provo's bombed London it was an act of war from the Irish state?

The Israeli fanboys just don't quite get it, do they

With that little difference that the IRA wasn't the actual ruling party in Ireland, right ?

Right.

BlaasForRafa

anymore wrote: »

Five palestine related threads on the first page of the political section of an irish site ???????
The mind boggles.

Palestinians are cool, did you not know that?

Arfan

Sure we all know Israel is just Britain's puppet state testing out its control methods on a bunch of natives. They're planning for when they reclaim the colonies.

The above opinion may not be related to this reality.

wes

Abbas is right to not back down. Israel is still stealing land from the Palestinians, and there is no sign at all, that they ever intend to give it up, and the US sponsered peace process is a long running joke, due to the simple fact that the US is essentially on Israel side 100%.

You can see the absurditiy of the US vetoing a UN resolution that was written purposfully to reflect there own position for proof of how ridiculous the US position is on the conflict.

Zubeneschamali

Alopex wrote: »

It amazes me Irish republicans support a Palestinian state

The lads I knew who wore combat jackets and supported the 'RA back in the 70s and 80s (when they were still officially provisionally killing people) used to be very fond of those PLO scarfs.

anymore

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The lads I knew who wore combat jackets and supported the 'RA back in the 70s and 80s (when they were still officially provisionally killing people) used to be very fond of those PLO scarfs.

It is called the 'Che phenomenon.' Young people who know very little about the actual issues or personalities involved form a kind of romantic attachment to people who want to liberate the world from the values that their parents hold and which values these young people will quickly adopt once the college days are over and the mega salaries start to come rolling in. Some will of course occasionally indulge themselves by hauling out scarves and maybe even going to one or two Anti Israeli protests. Other will simply get thier kick by posting profusely on websites.

vellocet

Jelle1880 wrote: »

With that little difference that the IRA wasn't the actual ruling party in Ireland, right ?

Right.

And the ruling party in Palestine aren't firing any rockets, so what exactly is the point here

Nodin

conorhal wrote: »

Obama should offer recognition to Tibet in return. That should shut them up. It's amazing how far off the 'human rights agenda' Tibet has slid since China became a superpower.......

Obviously all that 'grab the olympic torch off the runner' thing was my imagination.

Alopex wrote:

It amazes me Irish republicans support a Palestinian state given it is so similar an idea to the partition of ireland.

Hamas or some new hardliners will be the equivocation of the provos and will attack Israeli cities.

Israel will occupy the Palestinian state when this new state fails to control them and we'll be back to square one.

It isn't a viable solution. .......

...and putting them all in the same state is?

Before there was an Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad or a suicide bomber, there were settlers in Gaza and the West Bank.

vellocet

conorhal wrote: »

Obama should offer recognition to Tibet in return. That should shut them up. It's amazing how far off the 'human rights agenda' Tibet has slid since China became a superpower.......

I recall the Chinese embassy in Dublin getting turned over at least twice... There is an active Tibet friendhip group in Ireland.I recall Cowen as foreign affairs minister tearing the Chinese foreign minister a new one over a Trinity student getting put in a camp on his return home for a holiday.

But ignore that, we are all anti semites really

The reason I would put forward for the relative lack of debate compared to Israel is no-one defends China's brutal human rights record, so the threads run out of steam very quickly. People will defend apartheid Israel so they are more frequent and more hotly debated

Jelle1880

vellocet wrote: »

And the ruling party in Palestine aren't firing any rockets, so what exactly is the point here

One of them still is.
Unless you don't see Gaza as part of Palestine.

Alopex

Nodin wrote: »

Obviously all that 'grab the olympic torch off the runner' thing was my imagination.


...and putting them all in the same state is?

Before there was an Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad or a suicide bomber, there were settlers in Gaza and the West Bank.

I think the only long term solution is a secular state encompassing the entire region. Perhaps some autonomy for certain regions.

Do you really think the "death to Israel" groups would go away if the West Bank and Gaza got sovereignty? as you did not address my point that insurgents would continue attacking Israel, who would then of course re-occupy them.

RichieC

Obama would have a bullet in his head faster than you could say "two state solution" if he agreed with that, he has his whole retirement where he can say pretty much as he likes.

vellocet

Jelle1880 wrote: »

One of them still is.
Unless you don't see Gaza as part of Palestine.

Actually Hamas are not involved in firing any rockets at the moment, but carry on.

Nodin

Alopex wrote: »

I think the only long term solution is a secular state encompassing the entire region. Perhaps some autonomy for certain regions.
.

Given the attitudes in the area, thats not a realistic option.

Alopex wrote: »

Do you really think the "death to Israel" groups would go away if the West Bank and Gaza got sovereignty? as you did not address my point that insurgents would continue attacking Israel, who would then of course re-occupy them.

Yes, the major groups would fade away. There will always be the odd headbanger, but the vast majority will be content with a state.

Alopex

Nodin wrote: »

Given the attitudes in the area, thats not a realistic option.



Yes, the major groups would fade away. There will always be the odd headbanger, but the vast majority will be content with a state.

They're both highly unrealistic. Given that, may as well go with the one which makes ideological sense. Not a hope the groups would go away. There's no way Israel will give up East Jerusalem, or let the settlers be massacred in the west bank.

Nodin

Alopex wrote: »

They're both highly unrealistic. Given that, may as well go with the one which makes ideological sense. Not a hope the groups would go away. There's no way Israel will give up East Jerusalem, or let the settlers be massacred in the west bank.

Who said the settlers would be left in the west Bank? They'd leave. with the areas closest to the Israeli border being absorbed into the state proper with a land swap.

Given that the side with the nuclear bomb oppose a single state and the bitterness between both, the single state idea is - for the moment - pie in the sky talk.

Why are you dismissive of the idea of the groups disbanding?

Jelle1880

Because they're not interested in a two-state solution, they are religious nutjobs who would rather start another war than anything else.

I'm afraid you're giving them too much credit.

As for the ordinary people, I'm sure they would grab this opportunity with both hands.

vellocet:

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2011/me_hamas1078_08_28.asp
http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2011/me_israel1128_09_08.asp

Rhys Essien

anymore wrote: »

It is called the 'Che phenomenon.' Young people who know very little about the actual issues or personalities involved form a kind of romantic attachment to people who want to liberate the world from the values that their parents hold and which values these young people will quickly adopt once the college days are over and the mega salaries start to come rolling in. Some will of course occasionally indulge themselves by hauling out scarves and maybe even going to one or two Anti Israeli protests. Other will simply get thier kick by posting profusely on websites.

Ya and others might eventually take their head out of their arse and realise that the rogue state that are Israel are continuing to ethnically cleanse the Palestinian population.

Israel will be their own downfall.They are getting away with this $hit far too long.

Nodin

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Because they're not interested in a two-state solution, they are religious nutjobs who would rather start another war than anything else.

All of them?

Jelle1880

If with 'all of them' you mean all the so-called 'death to Israel groups' ?
Then yes, I don't think they will just go away or accept a two-state solution.

Alopex

Nodin wrote: »

Who said the settlers would be left in the west Bank? They'd leave. with the areas closest to the Israeli border being absorbed into the state proper with a land swap.

Given that the side with the nuclear bomb oppose a single state and the bitterness between both, the single state idea is - for the moment - pie in the sky talk.

Why are you dismissive of the idea of the groups disbanding?

I don't think the militant groups be happy with that solution - and they do have some support. I also don't think the west bank and Gaza will be economically viable as a nation. When they go tits up Israel will be blamed and further support for armed campaign will be fueled

The idea of a land swap is also wholly unrealistic. To borrow some terminology they're pretty "not an inch" about that.

The problem is Israel really should never have been set up in the first place. Too late for that now though.

anymore

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Ya and others might eventually take their head out of their arse and realise that the rogue state that are Israel are continuing to ethnically cleanse the Palestinian population.

Israel will be their own downfall.They are getting away with this $hit far too long.

Is it not Hamas which is committed in its founding charter to driving the Israeis into the sea ? Did i get that wrong ? And of course along with the Israelis, quite a few of Hamas's palestinian opponents will be liquidated as well.

walshb

wes wrote: »

Abbas is right to not back down. Israel is still stealing land from the Palestinians, and there is no sign at all, that they ever intend to give it up, and the US sponsered peace process is a long running joke, due to the simple fact that the US is essentially on Israel side 100%.

You can see the absurditiy of the US vetoing a UN resolution that was written purposfully to reflect there own position for proof of how ridiculous the US position is on the conflict.

Isarel is the 52nd state, or is it 51st?

Nodin

Alopex wrote: »

I don't think the militant groups be happy with that solution - and they do have some support. I also don't think the west bank and Gaza will be economically viable as a nation. When they go tits up Israel will be blamed and further support for armed campaign will be fueled

The idea of a land swap is also wholly unrealistic. To borrow some terminology they're pretty "not an inch" about that.

The problem is Israel really should never have been set up in the first place. Too late for that now though.

Its not often I come across somebody even more of a pessimist than myself.....

Jaafa

Jelle1880 wrote: »

If with 'all of them' you mean all the so-called 'death to Israel groups' ?
Then yes, I don't think they will just go away or accept a two-state solution.

Hamas have repeatedly indicated they would accept a two state solution based on 1967 borders. Granted they haven't said it flat out because that would piss off the real hardcore guys in the group.

anymore

Jaafa wrote: »

Hamas have repeatedly indicated they would accept a two state solution based on 1967 borders. Granted they haven't said it flat out because that would piss off the real hardcore guys in the group.

Did you read the post a second time ?

Jaafa

anymore wrote: »

[/B]

Did you read the post a second time ?

By hardcore I mean the guys who would never support any sort of settlement with Israel. Not the guys who fire rockets. They're fairly tame TBH.

cyberhog

Some more good news for the Palestinians. Ban Ki-moon has voiced his support for the UN vote.

Speaking on Friday, the UN chief was quoted by the French news agency AFP as saying he fully supported Palestinian statehood: "The two state vision where Israel and Palestinians can live... side by side in peace and security -- that is a still a valid vision and I fully support it."

"And I support also the statehood of Palestinians; an independent, sovereign state of Palestine. It has been long overdue," Ban told reporters in Canberra

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/un-secretary-general-palestinian-statehood-is-long-overdue-1.383504

Einhard

Jaafa wrote: »

Hamas have repeatedly indicated they would accept a two state solution based on 1967 borders. Granted they haven't said it flat out because that would piss off the real hardcore guys in the group.

So Hamas want a two state solution, but won't actually state this, yet Israel are just supposed to accept that, on the basis of nothing more than diplomatic hints and nudges?

Jaafa wrote: »

By hardcore I mean the guys who would never support any sort of settlement with Israel. Not the guys who fire rockets. They're fairly tame TBH.

So tame that that the majority in Hamas who, according to you, would accept a two state solution, are afraid to mention it out loud?

Jaafa

Einhard wrote: »

So Hamas want a two state solution, but won't actually state this, yet Israel are just supposed to accept that, on the basis of nothing more than diplomatic hints and nudges?





So tame that that the majority in Hamas who, according to you, would accept a two state solution, are afraid to mention it out loud?

My apologies I have made a mistake.

Hamas have actually said categorically that they would accept a settlement based on 1967 borders along with a long term truce.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/haniyeh-hamas-willing-to-accept-palestinian-state-with-1967-borders-1.256915

anymore

Jaafa wrote: »

By hardcore I mean the guys who would never support any sort of settlement with Israel. Not the guys who fire rockets. They're fairly tame TBH.

I have to say that this is the first time I have ever sen it suggested that people who fire rockets into and at purely civilian targets are the moderates !!!!!!!
But this is the middle east I suppose !

Jaafa

anymore wrote: »

I have to say that this is the first time I have ever it suggested that people who fire rockets into and at purely civilian targets are the moderates !!!!!!!
But this is the middle east I suppose !

Yes it is relatively speaking of course.

edanto

Anyone know where we can get the most up to date information on what's going on with the statehood bid?

I presume that the PA will be going for a General Assembly motion, to avoid the US veto - but what's the text of the motion, how definite is it that it will be put, what could Israel do to stymie it?

anymore

edanto wrote: »

Anyone know where we can get the most up to date information on what's going on with the statehood bid?

I presume that the PA will be going for a General Assembly motion, to avoid the US veto - but what's the text of the motion, how definite is it that it will be put, what could Israel do to stymie it?

Well they could point out that Palestine is de facto a two state entity with different parts of the country being run by different factions - a bit like Ireland in the early 20's.

Son Of A Vidic

cookies221 wrote: »

The UN will be forced to side with Israel, allowing it to finally defend itself without the chorus of bleeding hearts crying on internet forums.

Since when has Israel ever needed the UN's approval or support? An organisation whose members they have killed with impunity. Including many of our own brave Irish men who served under the UN flag.

woodoo

I'm just watching Louis Theroux on Network 2. I hope Abbas declares statehood. Israel are a disgrace. I'm amazed at what they get away with.

Foghladh

woodoo wrote: »

I'm just watching Louis Theroux on Network 2. I hope Abbas declares statehood. Israel are a disgrace. I'm amazed at what they get away with.

That'd be the programme Louis Theroux and the Ultra Zionists? The name kinda gives a few clues as to what it's about

p1akuw47h5r3it

Foghladh wrote: »

That'd be the programme Louis Theroux and the Ultra Zionists? The name kinda gives a few clues as to what it's about

Yes but these ultra Zionists are being facilitated by the Israeli Goverment, a fact that was not denied in the Documentary.

Foghladh

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Yes but these ultra Zionists are being facilitated by the Israeli Goverment, a fact that was not denied in the Documentary.

It's recorded on the Sky box but I haven't seen it yet apart from the odd clip on youtube, I'm saving it for tomorrow night. I'll reserve my comments until then

The Saint

It seems that the PA are not going to go to the Security Council with the vote since the US has stated many times that they would veto any resolution declaring any Palestinian UN membership. This would also likely annoy the US a great deal as it would make them look obstructionist in the region and around the world. The Security Council bit seems to have also split the EU who have been trying to put together a common response to the proposed statehood bid.

However, it looks like the PA will take their statehood bid to the General Assembly, which, while it will not give them full statehood, it will give them a non-permanent member status. It is more likely that the PA will be able to get EU-wide support for this and reports state that that the EU are trying to get the US to abstain from voting against it.

This will throw a spanner in the works of Israel seeking to get its "moral minority" of states, a most anti-democratic concept, to vote against the PA's statehood bid in the GA. However, if the EU vote in favour of the Palestinian bit then this wipes out the "moral minority", since it is the large EU states that the Israelis have been trying extremely hard to get on side.

If the EU votes as a bloc this will mean the vast majority of states, as well as democratic states, will vote in favour of this resolution and will put Israel in a very difficult position diplomatically if it continues its current policies as it will be the Israelis and the Israelis alone that look unreasonable and rejectionist.

irishh_bob

The Saint wrote: »

It seems that the PA are not going to go to the Security Council with the vote since the US has stated many times that they would veto any resolution declaring any Palestinian UN membership. This would also likely annoy the US a great deal as it would make them look obstructionist in the region and around the world. The Security Council bit seems to have also split the EU who have been trying to put together a common response to the proposed statehood bid.

However, it looks like the PA will take their statehood bid to the General Assembly, which, while it will not give them full statehood, it will give them a non-permanent member status. It is more likely that the PA will be able to get EU-wide support for this and reports state that that the EU are trying to get the US to abstain from voting against it.

This will throw a spanner in the works of Israel seeking to get its "moral minority" of states, a most anti-democratic concept, to vote against the PA's statehood bid in the GA. However, if the EU vote in favour of the Palestinian bit then this wipes out the "moral minority", since it is the large EU states that the Israelis have been trying extremely hard to get on side.

If the EU votes as a bloc this will mean the vast majority of states, as well as democratic states, will vote in favour of this resolution and will put Israel in a very difficult position diplomatically if it continues its current policies as it will be the Israelis and the Israelis alone that look unreasonable and rejectionist.

the PA need america aswell , hammas would be in charge of the entire pallestinian territorys were it not for support from america , some see the PA as a bunch of uncle toms

edanto

Well, luckily enough, the US president, and approx 2/3 of the Israeli & Palestinian populations, believe that two states is the best way forward. (sourced from the short video on the page below)

http://www.avaaz.org/en/middle_east_peace_now/

Incidentally, if anyone would like to try and encourage our Tanaiste to speak up for Palestine in this important week, you could put a message on his facebook page

http://www.facebook.com/EamonGilmore?sk=app_4949752878#!/EamonGilmore?sk=wall&filter=1