Start milking?

HR X LM

Well guys, Im thinking of getting into milking. I have sucklers at the moment but just want to have a regular farm income and farm fulltime!! Any know how much it would cost to start milking around 30 cows?? or would it be worth it thanks

polod

give it a go lad if its some thing you want to do ..........to much commitment in dairying doe for me ....il keep the sucklers 30 cows say average yeild 1300 gallons ? 6000 litres x 30 cows = 180,000 litres at say 30 c/l = 54,000 euro ...not bad but take your costs out of it 30 weanlings x average say 700 ....30 x 700 = 21,000 euro go for it lad

limo_100

how many acres would you need for thirty milking cows assuming u'll be keeping replacement heifers aswel

HR X LM

figures sound good enough to me! I have to look into it a bit more, i wouldnt be the most educated person when it comes to milking. I dont know how many acres would be needed, i have more than enough anyway

polod

are you based in the west ? apparently connacht gold can not get enough milk in the west there.....know a good few young farmers that expanded beside me and lake land will only take so much of their milk....connacht gold is taking the rest.

bbam

I'll play devils advocate here...

180,000l @ 30c is indeed €54,000 Revenue
but
Costs of
180,000 @ ~19c is €34,200 (cost based on conversation with local dairy man in Feb)
Leaving ~ €19,800

Expectation he has is that milk will fall in price post the Quota era by up to 30%.

You still have the €34,200 costs but now revenue is down to €36,000.
It's a hell of alot of work for €1800 a year..

I'm not saying that will happen, its just a scenario that could play out...


My sister works for a bank in Meath and they are giving €150,000+ loans out near every week for dairy set up... I asked her what price milk was valued at 5 years from now on the business plans and she couldn't answer... "It's not done like that" was her answer

How is it done ?
There is wholesale gearing up for an enourmos supply of milk post Quota, will the creameries not take advantage of this and drop the price...

Think of the beef factories... the week supplies are up...prices are down

Tipp Man

Lads if that is how ye do yer figures and make decisions then ye are doomed before ye start. For the second thread in 24 hours cows don't live on fresh air, there are costs, and plenty of them. you need to do your figures completly and see if it works

You might also want to bear in mind that by 2020 we expect our 120 cows to be below the average herd size

Edit: not aimed at bbam but the numbers bandied about above his post

Tipp Man

bbam wrote: »

I'll play devils advocate here...

180,000l @ 30c is indeed €54,000 Revenue
but
Costs of
180,000 @ ~19c is €34,200 (cost based on conversation with local dairy man in Feb)
Leaving ~ €19,800

Expectation he has is that milk will fall in price post the Quota era by up to 30%.

You still have the €34,200 costs but now revenue is down to €36,000.
It's a hell of alot of work for €1800 a year..

I'm not saying that will happen, its just a scenario that could play out...


My sister works for a bank in Meath and they are giving €150,000+ loans out near every week for dairy set up... I asked her what price milk was valued at 5 years from now on the business plans and she couldn't answer... "It's not done like that" was her answer

How is it done ?
There is wholesale gearing up for an enourmos supply of milk post Quota, will the creameries not take advantage of this and drop the price...

Think of the beef factories... the week supplies are up...prices are down

About time a little sense - nevermind the fact that you are tied 24 7 all year. No chance of an off farm job with dairy but as you see from here most of the suckler lads do

whelan1

its unreal the amount of posters here that seem to think dairying is the way to go, as tipp man says its a 7 day a week job and these people who say they will help you out or work for you become very thin on the ground at weekends etc

bbam

Old Irish Farming Economics.... revenue = profit ... Major FAIL

polod

whelan1 wrote: »

its unreal the amount of posters here that seem to think dairying is the way to go, as tipp man says its a 7 day a week job and these people who say they will help you out or work for you become very thin on the ground at weekends etc[/QUO


ye must be making money if ye are still at it .........who's going to get up at 7 o'clock 7 days a week for nothing

snowman707

Milk @ 28C per gallon

CAN @ €350 per ton

Diesel €1 per ltr.

I have bee accused on this forum more than once in the past as been a pessimist, but I have held every sq. inch of all the land I bought, when others were selling sites to keep a roof over their head

F.D

Is it the norm for all farmers in each sector to be negitive about someone wanting to make a start, this makes me laugh, oh the price of milk will drop as soon as quotas go, fair enough, i'm sure anyone thinking of getting into milk will be doing there costings at 20 cent per lt if they have there head screwed on at all, just because the price of grain is good this year more ground will be ploughed next year= more grain = price drop
Bottom line If your a small tillage or suckler or beef farmer you have to have an off farm job, which means doing your normal job all week that pays the bills then kill yourself on saturday and sunday to do all the farm work, this may come as a shock to dairy farmers that think they are the only ones working on a saturday and sunday Rant Over!!
If the OP Can do it without it costing him a fortune, I think it will work
and even at 20 cent per lt i'd reckon it will still leave more than sucklers

F.D

HR X LM wrote: »

Well guys, Im thinking of getting into milking. I have sucklers at the moment but just want to have a regular farm income and farm fulltime!! Any know how much it would cost to start milking around 30 cows?? or would it be worth it thanks

Can you give us more details about your set up
Acres around yard
Acres away from yard
infrastructure you have already
people here might be better able to give you an idea with that info

5live

polod wrote: »

give it a go lad if its some thing you want to do ..........to much commitment in dairying doe for me ....il keep the sucklers 30 cows say average yeild 1300 gallons ? 6000 litres x 30 cows = 180,000 litres at say 30 c/l = 54,000 euro ...not bad but take your costs out of it 30 weanlings x average say 700 ....30 x 700 = 21,000 euro go for it lad

And out of that 21k take out the finance costs, the building costs, the roadway costs etc etc etc that you dont have/need with your present set up.

Do the math on the costs of conversion of present housing, building a parlour, buying a milk tank. Then add 20% for unforeseen costs and you come in somewhere near the costs. Now budget your milk income at 29 or 30c a litre and also allow for a year in 5 with a price of 25c a litre and if those figures stack up and you are happy working 12 hour days 7 days a week for 52 weeks for those sums then go ahead:)

To listen to some people you would think milking cows is just a matter of finding ways to spend the 34c a litre we are getting at the minute. Its not a bad way of life but one good year doesnt make a s**tload of investment worthwhile

Tipp Man

F.D wrote: »

Is it the norm for all farmers in each sector to be negitive about someone wanting to make a start, this makes me laugh, oh the price of milk will drop as soon as quotas go, fair enough, i'm sure anyone thinking of getting into milk will be doing there costings at 20 cent per lt if they have there head screwed on at all, just because the price of grain is good this year more ground will be ploughed next year= more grain = price drop
Bottom line If your a small tillage or suckler or beef farmer you have to have an off farm job, which means doing your normal job all week that pays the bills then kill yourself on saturday and sunday to do all the farm work, this may come as a shock to dairy farmers that think they are the only ones working on a saturday and sunday Rant Over!!
If the OP Can do it without it costing him a fortune, I think it will work
and even at 20 cent per lt i'd reckon it will still leave more than sucklers

it's not about being negative - its about being real. Anybody who posts turnover as some kind of profit level needs to seriously reasses how they do their numbers

for 30 cows to beat a fella with a job and a few cattle the cows would litteraly have to milk liquid gold. The cows might make more than the cattle but when you add in the income foregone by giving up a job then the cows come out second best every time

whelan1

polod wrote: »

whelan1 wrote: »

its unreal the amount of posters here that seem to think dairying is the way to go, as tipp man says its a 7 day a week job and these people who say they will help you out or work for you become very thin on the ground at weekends etc[/QUO


ye must be making money if ye are still at it .........who's going to get up at 7 o'clock 7 days a week for nothing

you tell me what else is there to do ? its all i can do... As in every job you have crap days and good days the best thing about my job is you never know whats going to happen next, that is also the worst thing....

djmc

who's going to get up at 7 o'clock 7 days a week for nothing
There have been years I got up at 7 and work 7 days a year for less than nothing at a loss every day I went to work
I had to stick with it and hope for a better year when I could recoupe my losses If I sold up I would have nothing not even dole as I am self employed.
It was only 2 years ago when farmers all over europe were spreading milk on the land as a protest of selling it below cost.
There are good and bad years and if you are doing it alone it is a lot of work.
If you do everything right and have good land and dont borrow too much you can make an ok living
If you dont do things right and borrowed too much the bank will take your farm.
As said already you need to have your sums done right before making any rash decisions

F.D

Can i ask a few questions to all the experienced dairy farmers, i know you'll be realistic with your answers

1)What is the average cost of production per lt (in your mind not teagasc or whats written in the journal)
2)What is the minimum number of cows you reckon you would need to make a living say if you sold the off spring as weanlings on the side (fragmented farm senario which is common in ireland)
3) do you ever put a cost on keeping the cow ie like suckler farmers saying it costs 350 /hd/yr

polod

whelan1 wrote: »

polod wrote: »

you tell me what else is there to do ? its all i can do... As in every job you have crap days and good days the best thing about my job is you never know whats going to happen next, that is also the worst thing....

yep sure this is it ....and that is why i think the OP wants to go into dairying. A fully set up dairy farmer will always more money than a fully set up beef/suckler farmer with the same amount of cows ...........but i think the beef sector is a better quality of life if you are single ....you need young ones or your father / partner to give you a hand to do the milking if ya want to go out saturday night / week end away etc just my thoughts on it as money isn't every thing . your health is your wealth ;-D

whelan1

polod wrote: »

whelan1 wrote: »

yep sure this is it ....and that is why i think the OP wants to go into dairying. A fully set up dairy farmer will always more money than a fully set up beef/suckler farmer with the same amount of cows ...........but i think the beef sector is a better quality of life if you are single ....you need young ones or your father / partner to give you a hand to do the milking if ya want to go out saturday night / week end away etc just my thoughts on it as money isn't every thing . your health is your wealth ;-D

i have 3 young kids, my husband is a lorry driver , so could be away from monday til friday , youngest child is 3 , i am very lucky that my parents live besdie me but hopefully when the youngest is gone to school it will get easier. Its hard to get the milking and all done by 8.30 am to get in to get breakfast and lunches ready and everything has to be gotten ready from the night before - hopefully i can get the kids trained to do the milking before school like i used to do:D

Grecco

bbam wrote: »

My sister works for a bank in Meath and they are giving €150,000+ loans out near every week for dairy set up...

How the hell could it cost €150,000+ to set up a dairy???
I must be living in the past :eek:

Out of interest How many Dairy cows could you keep on 170ac of prime Ag land ?

Tipp Man

Grecco wrote: »

How the hell could it cost €150,000+ to set up a dairy???
I must be living in the past :eek:

Out of interest How many Dairy cows could you keep on 170ac of prime Ag land ?

You must be

150k would barely get you the parlour and bulk tank now

Nevermind water and road infrastructure, the cows, the cubicles sheds and calving houses (and completly ignoring tractors, spreader toppers etc)

To start from a greenfield site literaly costs a small fortune nowadays.

You'd be looking at 200+ on 170 acres (depending on type of cow you wanted)

JohnBoy

any business plan should start with the fully worked out costs.

then figure out how much income is needed to break even, then how much more income is needed to pay the expected wage from the venture.

Then as it's a livestock venture increase your costs for the additional stock needed to meet these demands and recalculate.


Learn how to use excel.

If you cant work out your costs you're doomed.

Grecco

Tipp Man wrote: »

You must be

150k would barely get you the parlour and bulk tank now

Nevermind water and road infrastructure, the cows, the cubicles sheds and calving houses (and completly ignoring tractors, spreader toppers etc)

To start from a greenfield site literaly costs a small fortune nowadays.

You'd be looking at 200+ on 170 acres (depending on type of cow you wanted)

200+ cows sounds like too much hard work!

Is there no second hand market for the likes of the bulk tank and milking parlour.
It seems madness to try and have everything in place right from the start, you`d get buried in debt

Sounds a bit like the building boom that went on. People wouldn't move into a house until it was full of furniture and the table layed out:D

leg wax

sure arent all the figures you want in the comic provided by glanbia and teagasc with the green field sites, very simple, and arent glanbia going to provide help to dairy farmers in time in how to manage their money ,i smell a rat.

Muckit

There's a lad that works with me milking 30 cows. So if you're happy to milk at that level and your near your work, its another option.

zetorman

Go for it ...... but start slowly and see how you get on. Have a look on donedeal 4 machine, tank etc. Should get the lot for 2 to 3 thousand. Installation costs etc will depend on local service men. If your aim is 30 cows I would get about 15 or 16 to start off. Will take you a year or 2 to get into the routine of it all. GOOD LUCK

centre 13

If drystock was so good why does the Journal talk about GROSS MARGINs all the time ...the sad reality I think is that if fixed costs are included the NET margin would be negative all the time..the top 10% of dairy farmers in the contry would have Gross margings 5 times whats quoted in the BETTER farm programme for beef. But I stress thats the real top dairy farmers.

Pacoa

I was reading an article in todays farm about a guy milking sheep. Perhaps that might be an alternative. Lower start up costs, straw bedding etc. lamb in feb and dry off mid sep.
Sounds more attractive than all year round milking.
And no quota.

20silkcut

Pacoa wrote: »

I was reading an article in todays farm about a guy milking sheep. Perhaps that might be an alternative. Lower start up costs, straw bedding etc. lamb in feb and dry off mid sep.
Sounds more attractive than all year round milking.
And no quota.

I know a fella who milks about 150 goats and he is flying it. Niche Market but essential product for people with certain health conditions.
Zero grazes the whole farm and feeds them in the shed.

funny man

HR X LM wrote: »

Well guys, Im thinking of getting into milking. I have sucklers at the moment but just want to have a regular farm income and farm fulltime!! Any know how much it would cost to start milking around 30 cows?? or would it be worth it thanks

about €3k/unit for a bog basic parlour and shed allow €25k for dairy, bulk tank, water heater etc., a couple of grand to put in 30 cubicles in an existing shed, sell 22 sucklers buy 30 springers and away you go a regular income and farm fulltime after 2015 (you may have to buy production rights). What income do you need to generate to live and provide for your future, then find out what system/size of operation you need to build to (cost analysis), then build with an end game in sight eg; 30 cows going up to 90 cows.

F.D

HR X LM
are you going to the ploughing next week, i wonder would some of the main milking machine manufacturers have new machine sales pending on the customer selling his old set up they might be able to point you towards someone, might work out benifical for both of you, even to compare costs of old vs new might be worth going

caseman

funny man wrote: »

about €3k/unit for a bog basic parlour and shed allow €25k for dairy, bulk tank, water heater etc., a couple of grand to put in 30 cubicles in an existing shed, sell 22 sucklers buy 30 springers and away you go a regular income and farm fulltime after 2015 (you may have to buy production rights). What income do you need to generate to live and provide for your future, then find out what system/size of operation you need to build to (cost analysis), then build with an end game in sight eg; 30 cows going up to 90 cows.

A neighbour of mine had a 6 unit parlour. He had to bring it to the scrap yard got a few hundred for it. Plenty of them out their big enough for 30 cows. Hed had it advertised at e1000 ono no takers.

funny man

caseman wrote: »

A neighbour of mine had a 6 unit parlour. He had to bring it to the scrap yard got a few hundred for it. Plenty of them out their big enough for 30 cows. Hed had it advertised at e1000 ono no takers.

maybe that was the place for it.

bbam

funny man wrote: »

maybe that was the place for it.

Indeed..
No point buying good cows and then a scrap machine resulting in nothing but trouble and ruined cows...I've seen this carry on too often..
Nothing wrong with second hand plant but I'd say to install it to current standards will yield only a small saving over new plant...

John_F

http://www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/machinery/2521211

€1500 per unit in kildare, wonder why is being sold though... super levy??

just a side note, if you go milking, remember you must at least buy some bit of quota... where would you get it this year..... or next??

bbam

20silkcut wrote: »

I know a fella who milks about 150 goats and he is flying it. Niche Market but essential product for people with certain health conditions.
Zero grazes the whole farm and feeds them in the shed.

But there is no market at the moment

Contacted Glenisk and they said the market was oversupplied, since heard they are bringing it in from north of the border

moy83

I heard the same thing . Dont think goat milkers are too happy at the moment with glenisk cutting milk prices .

Farfield

Hi, i have been following your thread and am totally new to this whole thing. Like you, i am just starting the process of setting up a 40-50 cow unit for milking (changing over from suckling) and want to finish all calves to beef - so basically a beef and milk enterprise. My farm was my family dairy farm up until 10 years ago (milking british friesan) so most of the infrastructure, sheds etc is in place and in very good shape - just need to upgrade parlour.
My question to all you guys is regarding Fleckvieh cows (fullblood Simmental). My dairy advisor has told me they would suit me best for milk and beef, but i still personally would tend to go the British Friesan route if i knew where to source good young ones. Any ideas/views on both breeds????

jeff greene

Farfield wrote: »

Hi, i have been following your thread and am totally new to this whole thing. Like you, i am just starting the process of setting up a 40-50 cow unit for milking (changing over from suckling) and want to finish all calves to beef - so basically a beef and milk enterprise. My farm was my family dairy farm up until 10 years ago (milking british friesan) so most of the infrastructure, sheds etc is in place and in very good shape - just need to upgrade parlour.
My question to all you guys is regarding Fleckvieh cows (fullblood Simmental). My dairy advisor has told me they would suit me best for milk and beef, but i still personally would tend to go the British Friesan route if i knew where to source good young ones. Any ideas/views on both breeds????

I may be shot down for this but pick one route, milk or beef and do one well, almost every farmer I know now sells his calves asap, its the only day you make money with them, especially if you’re breeding specially for them and not the primary goal of filling the bulk tank. You sell the bulls once but milk the heifers everyday. As for breeds I’m not a great fan of BF, nothing I’ve seen lately changed my opinion of them from years ago, there is a reason they were almost bred out of extension around the world and don’t know much about Fleckvieh, a coarser montebellard I feel.

Best of luck with it.

Farfield

Fair enough, what would you go for? I presume you are dairying - Holstein cows?
Well, if i cut out the beefing end then i could up the cow numbers a fair bit as i have about 100 acres of dry land in one block around the yard and access to a lot of conacre ground from brothers who are just down the road and not much interested in the farming end.
I was thinking of putting in an 8 or 10 unit swing over parlour with acr's?
I suppose if i have to go over 50 cows at this stage i would have to do a shed extension as i only 50 stands/cubicles and lots of beefing/cattle pens and silos. More cost. Maybe start with this, do a good parlour that leaves me i can up numbers and see how it goes. I also work full time in another business, but i can reduce my hours in that to maybe 10 to 4 each day.

colrow

I thought you might be interested in this article "Its Cool to be a Farmer Again"

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2011/0917/1224304251655.html

Farfield

Yes Colrow - i have already read it!! Its about time the fortunes of farming changed, but beef still has a long way to go yet.

whelan1

Farfield wrote: »

Hi, i have been following your thread and am totally new to this whole thing. Like you, i am just starting the process of setting up a 40-50 cow unit for milking (changing over from suckling) and want to finish all calves to beef - so basically a beef and milk enterprise. My farm was my family dairy farm up until 10 years ago (milking british friesan) so most of the infrastructure, sheds etc is in place and in very good shape - just need to upgrade parlour.
My question to all you guys is regarding Fleckvieh cows (fullblood Simmental). My dairy advisor has told me they would suit me best for milk and beef, but i still personally would tend to go the British Friesan route if i knew where to source good young ones. Any ideas/views on both breeds????

i changed back to british friesian last year after being holstein friesian for a long time , i am very happy so far... not sure about the fleckview do you know of anyone with them? i agree with jeff greene , its either dairy or beef not both

moy83

whelan1 wrote: »

i changed back to british friesian last year after being holstein friesian for a long time , i am very happy so far... not sure about the fleckview do you know of anyone with them? i agree with jeff greene , its either dairy or beef not both

I read about a fella that was setting up to go milking simmental / shorthorn and finnishing the offspring . Is the quality of their milk any better than holstein cows ? Sorry i dont have the proper dairy terminology but i hear ye on here talking about getting paid for solids or on A B C . So the question is for someone with a fragmented farm with a small milking platform would it give a living if they could get paid well for less milk at better quality from a dual purpose cow and have the few pound from finnishing the offspring on the out farm ?

Farfield

Whelan1, if you both had access to the land and had the accomodation would you not finish your cattle too? Surely it hedges your bets and reduces price sensitivity to milk price? Or would you up the cow numbers?

Farfield

Moy83, your're thinking a bit like what i am thinking of doing. Get money from both aspects and not be totally dependent on one.

5live

moy83 wrote: »

I read about a fella that was setting up to go milking simmental / shorthorn and finnishing the offspring . Is the quality of their milk any better than holstein cows ? Sorry i dont have the proper dairy terminology but i hear ye on here talking about getting paid for solids or on A B C . So the question is for someone with a fragmented farm with a small milking platform would it give a living if they could get paid well for less milk at better quality from a dual purpose cow and have the few pound from finnishing the offspring on the out farm ?

The simmental is a huge block of a cow. There could be issues with getting them out in spring if you were going the extended grazing route as they would cause more damage.
I went down the dual purpose road and i must sdmit i made a nice bit of money out of it with MRI crossbreds making £50 a head more than their holstein cousins at marts from 15 weeks upto over a year old. But that was then.
What you are looking for, i think, is to maximise your milk solids over your milking block and then use the outfarm for replacements and silage. If you want to beef a few head you can always run a beef bull with the cows and keep those and any friesian bulls(keep an eye on the Farmers Journal with articles on trial work on bull beef, it may suit you).
Personally i find it hard to see more money being made from dual purpose cows in your situation as the EBI figures seem to favour the friesian types(and moreso the jersey but we not allowed mention those too much here:p)

moy83

Farfield wrote: »

Moy83, your're thinking a bit like what i am thinking of doing. Get money from both aspects and not be totally dependent on one.

Thinking is about all im doing . I know all types of cattle are making great money this year but how long has it been since prices were this good and how long will it last ? What happens when milk prices dip and cattle prices go back ? It would be fierce hard in a year like that to keep the work done and everything fed for very little reward . Its well worth looking into but id like to see how it works for a few others before i would chance it

Farfield

I have heard and read about the MRI cows.What are they like? I sort of thought that they were like a red and white British Friesan? Good feet, less prone to mastitus - sounded like a good cow-are you still using them?