FEE and NUIG SU protest the Fine Gael think-in

PomBear

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlxQMJB_TZk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbV1ZVS8y9U

Thoughts on it?

Red_Wake

Joe Loughnane's tinpot crusade continues to be a joke.

PomBear

Red_Wake wrote: »

Joe Loughnane's tinpot crusade continues to be a joke.

Joe Loughnane isn't a student anymore nor was he an organiser or of the protest.

Red_Wake

PomBear wrote: »

Joe Loughnane isn't a student anymore nor was he an organiser or of the protest.

He was in the video carrying one of the pipes.

Twit that he is.

Croppy Bhoy

Hey Red Wake, just wondering if you voice your opposition to FEE (or specifically Joe Loughnane as that's who you seem to have an issue with) in person, or do you just sit on the internet calling him names?

Ficheall

What were the pipes for?

Also, when did we vote on the SU representing us in this manner?

Predalien

Ficheall wrote: »

What were the pipes for?

Also, when did we vote on the SU representing us in this manner?

I think it's so they can each put there arm in one end as it makes it very difficult to move the protestors without risking breaking their arms.

Some form of protest is necessary, our registration fees are now similar to what other European countries charge in actual fees, and we don't even have a loan system.

hokeypokey

Yes I think it was a good thing to do, some of the SU people are a bit crazy, but it's well intentioned i think..

Ficheall

The road to hell is paved with good intentions...

hokeypokey

Ficheall wrote: »

The road to hell is paved with good intentions...

though being moderate in general gets you nowhere as you will just get walked over, like myself

Ficheall

Why is protest necessary? On the fees front that is - I can understand about hospitaly stuff etc.
I want to buy a boat, but I can't afford it. Should I protest about the price of boats?

Croppy Bhoy

Ficheall wrote: »

Why is protest necessary? On the fees front that is - I can understand about hospitaly stuff etc.
I want to buy a boat, but I can't afford it. Should I protest about the price of boats?

Making education accessible is more important to so society than making boats accessible. Unless you're Somalian.

Nailz

Ficheall wrote: »

Why is protest necessary? On the fees front that is - I can understand about hospitaly stuff etc.
I want to buy a boat, but I can't afford it. Should I protest about the price of boats?

Few people our age can, but 3rd level education should be open to all applicable people, not to the highest bidder. There's a lot of people in Ireland unable to pay for these courses because they didn't have the advange of being born into a better off family or similar — this especially applies to school leavers and younger people.

Ficheall

Croppy Bhoy wrote: »

Making education accessible is more important to so society than making boats accessible. Unless you're Somalian.

Junior Infants, Senior Infants, First Class, Second Class, Third Class, Fourth Class, Fifth Class, Sixth Class, First Year, Second Year, Third Year, maybe Transition Year, Fifth Year, Sixth Year...

I have yet to be given a single boat.

Nailz

Not of that means jackshit without third-level to be honest as regards true knowledge and hunting for dream careers. It's feels necessary to 80-90% of Leaving Cert students to go on and do what they like — and some just can't because their parents don't have the money, they couldn't get a job, etc.

Boats aren't necessary, unless you're a fisherman.

Ficheall

"True knowledge"? :pac:

Come off it. How much "knowledge" do you think people retain from their degree? If people actually went to college to learn, and the system actually enforced that, that might be a reasonable argument, but most just go for the qualification and to have the craic.

80%-90% of students that finish the Leaving Cert probably want to get the ride and get wasted too - it doesn't mean the government should pay them to. Similarly, it's in your interests to make sure you get your dream job - why should anyone else care, or pay for it?

Predalien

But for a professional career third level education is an absolute necessity in an economy like Ireland's. People shouldn't be denied that opportunity based on financial circumstances, if you don't want wasters in college make it harder, teach it better, and charge repeat fees, there are far better reforms possible than just trying to bleed money from people that are already tapped. If they start charging fees for **** colleges like NUIG all that will happen is the standard of student there will further deteriorate as serious people would rather go to a better college if they're paying thousands for it.

Nailz

That may be the case, and it's most certainly partial with pretty much all students who attend college, but to those who do go to learn and to receive qualifications, and do so to the best of their abilities, they should not be put aside because they can't afford it, and the government should not risk that. I do not believe in "free education for everyone", as I believe there should be some money put forward by every student towards the government, but not at the expense it is at the moment. €2,000 per (+ other costs, potentially) isn't viable for people aged 17-24, let alone the fees being increased.

Ficheall

Third-level education is not a necessity in an economy like Ireland's. The qualification is at the moment, yes, because the general opinion seems to have driven it that way. Had I spent a year working hard at a couple of programming languages instead of coming to college, I would be able to offer a potential workplace as much as I can offer now after 7 years in university (less perhaps a slightly improved ability to deal with people, but that all comes with time anyway).

I'll agree 100% with the part about standards needing improvement etc though.

A degree is a simple measure that an employer can check for - if you have it they assume, often incorrectly, that you have a certain level of ability, AND that you can keep your head down and work. But if you can prove to an employer that you can do a job at least as well as someone with a degree, then (assuming they have some cop) they shouldn't hold your lack of a qualification against you.

Ficheall

Nailz wrote: »

That may be the case, and it's most certainly partial with pretty much all students who attend college, but to those who do go to learn and to receive qualifications, and do so to the best of their abilities, they should not be put aside because they can't afford it, and the government should not risk that. I do not believe in "free education for everyone", as I believe there should be some money put forward by every student towards the government, but not at the expense it is at the moment. €2,000 per (+ other costs, potentially) isn't viable for people aged 17-24, let alone the fees being increased.

Fair enough, but it seems that baby is in a whole ocean of bathwater, and what they're doing at the moment is fierce inefficient, fees or no.

I think then we're agreed then that intelligent/hardworking/whatever students should be subsidised, but that many students are just wasters who don't deserve to have their fees paid? Or somesuch?

I think I'm of the opinion that the first year of college should be paid for by students, and then further years subsidised according to results. That would be difficult to administrate though.
Also, the colleges themselves are far happier to have quantity over quality - otherwise they get no money.
There's some serious reform needed somewhere, definitely.
I just don't think lying down in the road complaining without offering an alternative is the way to go about it.

Tupamaros

Did someone just compare access to education with owning a boat? WTF

Protesting about anything, no matter how noble the cause, is going to be met with nay-sayers of some sort in Ireland. The 'down with that sort of thing' brigade. Fair play to the protesters, college really is a massive expense for many students and certainly if fees are brought in or the reg fee goes up any more, more people will be deterred from getting further education.

Ficheall

Tupamaros wrote: »

Did someone just compare access to education with owning a boat? WTF

Sincerest apologies. What would you have compared it to?

Red_Wake

Croppy Bhoy wrote: »

Hey Red Wake, just wondering if you voice your opposition to FEE (or specifically Joe Loughnane as that's who you seem to have an issue with) in person, or do you just sit on the internet calling him names?

I don't personally bother with them. But I've noticed that they do a fair bit of scaremongering on the fees.

Last year, they kept iterating that the fees would be doubled. I happen to know that a doubling of fees was never discussed by anyone with the authority to implement it.

When the fees weren't doubled, but still increased, they proclaimed it a great victory for themselves, despite having done nothing of consequence.

They're a disgrace, scaremongerers who congratulate themselves when their own bull**** doesn't happen.

PomBear

Red_Wake wrote: »

I don't personally bother with them. But I've noticed that they do a fair bit of scaremongering on the fees.

Last year, they kept iterating that the fees would be doubled. I happen to know that a doubling of fees was never discussed by anyone with the authority to implement it.

When the fees weren't doubled, but still increased, they proclaimed it a great victory for themselves, despite having done nothing of consequence.

They're a disgrace, scaremongerers who congratulate themselves when their own bull**** doesn't happen.

Wrong, wrong and wrong again.

If you have any evidence of their scaremongering please provide some sort of proof, which frankly doesn't exist.

Doubling the fees was not mentioned by FEE or the SU.

Nobody thought the increase in fees was any sort of victory, are you for real?

Feckin Keyboard warriors, never seen a post on boards with so many wrong allegations.

Red_Wake

PomBear wrote: »

Wrong, wrong and wrong again.

If you have any evidence of their scaremongering please provide some sort of proof, which frankly doesn't exist.

Doubling the fees was not mentioned by FEE or the SU.

Nobody thought the increase in fees was any sort of victory, are you for real?

Feckin Keyboard warriors, never seen a post on boards with so many wrong allegations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdL92wIgGtg&feature=related

Youtube vid, uploaded by FEE, asserting the introduction of a 3000 registration fee, up from 1500. Also contains footage of Emma Conway, welfare officer of the SU talking about the effects of a doubling in student registration fee.

Wrong allegations my hairy arsehole and hairless chin.

PomBear

Red_Wake wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdL92wIgGtg&feature=related

Youtube vid, uploaded by FEE, asserting the introduction of a 3000 registration fee, up from 1500. Also contains footage of Emma Conway, welfare officer of the SU talking about the effects of a doubling in student registration fee.

Wrong allegations my hairy arsehole and hairless chin.

The youtube video interviews students of NUIG. A student said it at the start as €3000. This was the alleged figure by media at the time, this was the figure that FF had been asked about and didn't give any denial that was a possible fee they'd implement in that upcoming budget. As for Emma saying it, if she was representing the SU in that interview or as an NUIG student as the video title entails, suppose you'd have to ask her.

Also, neither FEE or the SU came up with that figure as a means to scare students, there were serious claims that this was a very possible outcome of the budget, FF did not deny it would be.

As we did see, the grants were cut, were denied to many. Registration fees were raised €500. This has resulted in many not being able to return. Many more would not have returned if the fees were €3000 and that is why students needed to protest.

Again I see you could not back up your other two ridiculous claims. I do not expect to see it either.:rolleyes:

Predalien

Red_Wake wrote: »

Last year, they kept iterating that the fees would be doubled. I happen to know that a doubling of fees was never discussed by anyone with the authority to implement it.

It was widely reported in the national media that the registration fee could be doubled, it was then reported as backtracking by the government when it was only raised by 500. I'm not sure where you're knowledge comes from but it was widely accepted at the time that a doubling was on the table.

Red_Wake

PomBear wrote: »

The youtube video interviews students of NUIG. A student said it at the start as €3000. This was the alleged figure by media at the time, this was the figure that FF had been asked about and didn't give any denial that was a possible fee they'd implement in that upcoming budget. As for Emma saying it, if she was representing the SU in that interview or as an NUIG student as the video title entails, suppose you'd have to ask her.

Also, neither FEE or the SU came up with that figure as a means to scare students, there were serious claims that this was a very possible outcome of the budget, FF did not deny it would be.

As we did see, the grants were cut, were denied to many. Registration fees were raised €500. This has resulted in many not being able to return. Many more would not have returned if the fees were €3000 and that is why students needed to protest.

Again I see you could not back up your other two ridiculous claims. I do not expect to see it either.:rolleyes:

SU Welfare Officer, when asked about fees, may or may not be representing the SU?

Come off it, in your last post you claim that FEE never bandied about a doubling, but now there's proof you're wrong, you claim it was accurate because FF didn't deny it was a possibility.

Like I said, I happen to know a doubling was never considered seriously.

And as regards your "many have not been able to return", student numbers continue to increase. If the fees increase is so hard to bear, why is that?

.TCF Ultra

Hey cool, let's all show what awesome rebellious champions of rational thought and logic we are. We totally deserve to have our education paid for.

Let's harass some Gardai, obstruct the operation of a hotel and threaten to break our arms while screaming abuse and acting aggressively towards anything and everything

NEAT

edit: I appreciate that everyone has the right to protest and while I don't agree with this crap, I think they should be allowed to protest. HOWEVER, being a savage and physically aggressing towards everyone nearby isn't protesting, it's being a savage.

Tupamaros

Ficheall wrote: »

Sincerest apologies. What would you have compared it to?

Something like health care, ie. something of very important social value that all people should be entitled to regardless of their financial circumstances. Something as trivial as a boat is a bit of a weird comparison, are you loaded are something and didn't get a boat for your super sweet 16?

irishdude11

Ficheall wrote: »

Third-level education is not a necessity in an economy like Ireland's. The qualification is at the moment, yes, because the general opinion seems to have driven it that way. Had I spent a year working hard at a couple of programming languages instead of coming to college, I would be able to offer a potential workplace as much as I can offer now after 7 years in university (less perhaps a slightly improved ability to deal with people, but that all comes with time anyway).

I'll agree 100% with the part about standards needing improvement etc though.

A degree is a simple measure that an employer can check for - if you have it they assume, often incorrectly, that you have a certain level of ability, AND that you can keep your head down and work. But if you can prove to an employer that you can do a job at least as well as someone with a degree, then (assuming they have some cop) they shouldn't hold your lack of a qualification against you.

A third level education is essential in this country if you dont want to do something like pull pints for a living. There is no point differentiating between a "third level education" and a "third level qualification" as you can't get the qualification without the education.

Had I spent a year working hard at a couple of programming languages instead of coming to college, I would be able to offer a potential workplace as much as I can offer now after 7 years in university

Thats all well and good and you can learn just as much about programming on your own and without college, however a company does not see it like that. They have several people coming in for an interview, why would they take a chance on the lad that says he learned everything himself and knows as much as the other candidates, when they can just choose from the candidates who have solid third level qualifications. Sure you wouldn't even get in the door for almost any programming job interview without a qualification.

Predalien

Red_Wake wrote: »

S

Like I said, I happen to know a doubling was never considered seriously.

And as regards your "many have not been able to return", student numbers continue to increase. If the fees increase is so hard to bear, why is that?

provide a real source, here's one for the other side http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/1111/1224283093755.html

Student numbers continue to increase due to unemployment and more secondary school students.

.TCF Ultra

We can confirm rumours that x fee was to be doubled, therefore we lie on the ground chanting Irish with our arms in pipes to ensure we can immediately break said arms should the need arise

Are we beginning to see why people don't particularly feel like people like this should be put through college and not held accountable for where the money goes? I'll bet the rebel corps, down on funds and protesting for more, went for a few rounds in their local post-conquest to compare what brave and scary things they said to the Gardai and have a back-patting session

Ficheall

Tupamaros wrote: »

Something like health care, ie. something of very important social value that all people should be entitled to regardless of their financial circumstances. Something as trivial as a boat is a bit of a weird comparison, are you loaded are something and didn't get a boat for your super sweet 16?

Why should people be entitled to third level education? Really?
And how will your third-level education benefit society?

I picked a boat because it's financially comparable, and my "need" for one is just as selfish as a student's "need" for third-level education.
It was an example that suited my purpose. I've worked and saved for quite some time, and when I finish the phd this year I will buy my boat.

irishdude11 wrote: »

A third level education is essential in this country if you dont want to do something like pull pints for a living. There is no point differentiating between a "third level education" and a "third level qualification" as you can't get the qualification without the education.

Of course there is a point. Pretty much everyone who goes to college leaves with a qualification. Not everyone leaves having learned anything that is of any use to anyone.

irishdude11 wrote: »

Thats all well and good and you can learn just as much about programming on your own and without college, however a company does not see it like that. They have several people coming in for an interview, why would they take a chance on the lad that says he learned everything himself and knows as much as the other candidates, when they can just choose from the candidates who have solid third level qualifications. Sure you wouldn't even get in the door for almost any programming job interview without a qualification.

That is my point - it's only the perception amongst employers that a qualification implies an education and base knowledge that results in this qualification requisite. If they realised how thick the majority of students emerging from college are, or had a feasible alternative measure of assessment, they would regard a student's "qualification" with the scepticism it deserves.

Red_Wake

Predalien wrote: »

provide a real source, here's one for the other side http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/1111/1224283093755.html

Student numbers continue to increase due to unemployment and more secondary school students.

They don't name a source either you cretin.

Something being confirmed to be off the agenda doesn't mean it was ever on the agenda either, though I'm sure your unnamed, trustworthy source is more trustworthy and unnameable than my unnamed, trustworthy source. :rolleyes:

I'll agree that student numbers continue to increase, can you cite any evidence of large groups of people being unable to go to college because of the increase?

Ficheall has the right of it - I know a lad(qualifed Civil Engineer), who's got a job doing programming. He's little to no background in IT (Fortran 90 is the extend of it :eek: ) but he managed to get a job doing IT for a financial services company. This may be exclusive to electronics and IT, but a lad who's self taught will manage to get a job, because good programmers know that all programming is basically self taught, and also because we're desperate for more programmers.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know what faculty the lads protesting are in?

PomBear

Red_Wake wrote: »

SU Welfare Officer, when asked about fees, may or may not be representing the SU?

Come off it, in your last post you claim that FEE never bandied about a doubling, but now there's proof you're wrong, you claim it was accurate because FF didn't deny it was a possibility.

Like I said, I happen to know a doubling was never considered seriously.

And as regards your "many have not been able to return", student numbers continue to increase. If the fees increase is so hard to bear, why is that?

As I said, ask her?

It one of the reasons USI put them on the posters because FF's constant ignorance to the raising of fees was seen as a major threat to students and many students felt they had to do something.

If doubling was never considered seriously, just because your FF cumann told you or your TD told you, the rest of us knew no reason to think that this wasn't a grave possibility.

The fees increase has shut the door on education for some. Some students will really struggle this year because of it. Some won't struggle at all. You do not some students are worse or better off than others. It's no surprise you're not someone struggling to pay fees.

PomBear

.TCF Ultra wrote: »

Hey cool, let's all show what awesome rebellious champions of rational thought and logic we are. We totally deserve to have our education paid for.

Let's harass some Gardai, obstruct the operation of a hotel and threaten to break our arms while screaming abuse and acting aggressively towards anything and everything

NEAT

edit: I appreciate that everyone has the right to protest and while I don't agree with this crap, I think they should be allowed to protest. HOWEVER, being a savage and physically aggressing towards everyone nearby isn't protesting, it's being a savage.

You should note they weren't threatening to break their arms, the gardaí were acting aggressively with the lads, as you can see the way their arms are placed, if gardaí got too rough they could have broke one of the lads arms or shoulder.

Also there were no arrests, it was a peaceful protest. If the gardaí felt there was fair grounds or harassment, savagery or physical agression they'd have no problem arresting on the protesters. If you were there and not judging from a 4 minute video you'd know this........

The only people who were protested were Fine Gael Oireachtas members, cars and people could pass the blockade freely.

PomBear

Red_Wake wrote: »

They don't name a source either you cretin.

Something being confirmed to be off the agenda doesn't mean it was ever on the agenda either, though I'm sure your unnamed, trustworthy source is more trustworthy and unnameable than my unnamed, trustworthy source. :rolleyes:

I'll agree that student numbers continue to increase, can you cite any evidence of large groups of people being unable to go to college because of the increase?

Ficheall has the right of it - I know a lad(qualifed Civil Engineer), who's got a job doing programming. He's little to no background in IT (Fortran 90 is the extend of it :eek: ) but he managed to get a job doing IT for a financial services company. This may be exclusive to electronics and IT, but a lad who's self taught will manage to get a job, because good programmers know that all programming is basically self taught, and also because we're desperate for more programmers.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know what faculty the lads protesting are in?

A wide mix of law, arts, commerce, medicine, engineering and IT, from who I know.

On the programmers point, no everyone protests just because it effects them personally, it doesn't have to, you could show concern for the direction society is going by government decisions or simply concerned for friends, family etc.

You do know if your trustworthy source is a FF member, I wouldn't regard them as any trustworthy at any stage.

Ficheall

PomBear wrote: »

you could show concern for the direction society is going by government decisions or simply concerned for friends, family etc.

I'm concerned at the worthlessness of our education system.
I'm concerned that our youth today seem to be cursed with this strange sense of entitlement.
I'm concerned that so many people are under the illusion that simply obtaining a college degree qualifies them for a job.
And yes, I'm concerned that the government is squandering money left, right and centre - but two wrongs do not make a right and paying for students to go on the piss for a couple of years should not be made a priority.

PomBear

Ficheall wrote: »

I'm concerned at the worthlessness of our education system.
I'm concerned that our youth today seem to be cursed with this strange sense of entitlement.
I'm concerned that so many people are under the illusion that simply obtaining a college degree qualifies them for a job.
And yes, I'm concerned that the government is squandering money left, right and centre - but two wrongs do not make a right and paying for students to go on the piss for a couple of years should not be made a priority.

I see great value in education, far more than you know.

I see an educated workforce no only being good for the economy but good for society, the better educated, the more productive a society is.
he less educated, the less productive which usually is pretty detrimental to an economy.

I don't believe a degree entitles me to anything but I do believe i'd be far worse off without it. That being said, the only use it is to me now doesn't seem to be on this island.

If you want to be incredibly insulting and generalise as nothing but full time drinkers for 4 years in college, you've lost all credibility to your argument in my opinion.

My concerns? People like you get a good education, you have the means to educated to what you want to be and work at whatever you want to be. Not leave your only prospects at dole or emigration and God forbid the day, that your means to paying for your education are take away like they have been for so many people.

Ficheall

PomBear wrote: »

I see great value in education, far more than you know.

I see an educated workforce no only being good for the economy but good for society, the better educated, the more productive a society is.
he less educated, the less productive which usually is pretty detrimental to an economy.

I said our education system, not education itself. Obviously education is important.

PomBear wrote: »

If you want to be incredibly insulting and generalise as nothing but full time drinkers for 4 years in college, you've lost all credibility to your argument in my opinion.

As I've said previously, I don't mean all students are complete wasters. Just a substantial portion. And I see no reason why these should be subsidised. Do you?

PomBear wrote: »

My concerns? People like you get a good education, you have the means to educated to what you want to be and work at whatever you want to be. Not leave your only prospects at dole or emigration and God forbid the day, that your means to paying for your education are take away like they have been for so many people.

Cheers, I appreciate you looking out for my best interests. While you're at it, I'd appreciate it if you could ensure that the qualifications I get actually mean something, rather than being handed out to all and sundry. Also, I would like a boat. I will leave out some carrots for the reindeer.

PomBear

Ficheall wrote: »

I said our education system, not education itself. Obviously education is important.


As I've said previously, I don't mean all students are complete wasters. Just a substantial portion. And I see no reason why these should be subsidised. Do you?


Cheers, I appreciate you looking out for my best interests. While you're at it, I'd appreciate it if you could ensure that the qualifications I get actually mean something, rather than being handed out to all and sundry. Also, I would like a boat. I will leave out some carrots for the reindeer.

I agree the education needs a massive facelift and the core values of education must be brought to the fore.
But just because you don't believe in the system, there's no reason to believe people should pay for it and leave those who can't afford it with no means of third level education that's worth anything.
You can see what's wrong with the system and change that until it is one of the best education systems.

Tupamaros

Ficheall wrote: »

Why should people be entitled to third level education? Really?
And how will your third-level education benefit society?

I picked a boat because it's financially comparable, and my "need" for one is just as selfish as a student's "need" for third-level education.
It was an example that suited my purpose. I've worked and saved for quite some time, and when I finish the phd this year I will buy my boat.



Of course there is a point. Pretty much everyone who goes to college leaves with a qualification. Not everyone leaves having learned anything that is of any use to anyone.



That is my point - it's only the perception amongst employers that a qualification implies an education and base knowledge that results in this qualification requisite. If they realised how thick the majority of students emerging from college are, or had a feasible alternative measure of assessment, they would regard a student's "qualification" with the scepticism it deserves.

Yes your need for a boat is the same as someone wanting to go to college who can't afford it. Outstanding.

Ficheall

Tupamaros wrote: »

Yes your need for a boat is the same as someone wanting to go to college who can't afford it. Outstanding.

I see our opinions differ.
Could you perhaps outline the differences you see between my wanting a boat and someone else's wanting to go to college?

Ficheall

PomBear wrote: »

I agree the education needs a massive facelift and the core values of education must be brought to the fore.

You can see what's wrong with the system and change that until it is one of the best education systems.

A commendable idea. Why don't people protest about that then? If they are so concerned about their education?

PomBear wrote: »

But just because you don't believe in the system, there's no reason to believe people should pay for it and leave those who can't afford it with no means of third level education that's worth anything.

Why shouldn't students pay for their own education though?

To revert back to an earlier analogy and paraphrase slightly:
"Just because you don't believe a boat is worthwhile, there's no reason to believe that people should pay for their own boats and leave people who can't afford it with no means to pay for a boat that's worth anything".
Would that argument float, so to speak?

Red_Wake

PomBear wrote: »

As I said, ask her?

It one of the reasons USI put them on the posters because FF's constant ignorance to the raising of fees was seen as a major threat to students and many students felt they had to do something.

If doubling was never considered seriously, just because your FF cumann told you or your TD told you, the rest of us knew no reason to think that this wasn't a grave possibility.

The fees increase has shut the door on education for some. Some students will really struggle this year because of it. Some won't struggle at all. You do not some students are worse or better off than others. It's no surprise you're not someone struggling to pay fees.

I'm not a FF supporter you twit.:eek:

And I certainly wouldn't take anything a TD says as gospel.

You refer to the protesters as "the lads" in another post - I assume you're a protester yourself?

Ficheall is right about the education system, I've seen too many people spend their years in college on the piss, and the end result being a **** degree that wasn't worth their time.

Do you not think that this is an unfair burden on the taxpayer?

More interestingly though, most of the lads I know who've done this came from families which would be considered traditionally middle class - their kids are working retail with their lovely college degrees, despite having been given every advantage.

I'll admit I wouldn't struggle to pay fees, but neither would plenty of my friends, despite their protestations. If students were as poor as they claim to be, the library wouldn't be comparable to a Milanese fashion show around exam time.

Sianery

I think it's all well and good to make yourselves seen and protest about something without being aggressive towards anybody.

But the way in which these people protest definitely puts people off. If they decided not to bring pipes in order to break their arms (or get their arms broken, same diff) and shout 'f**k off' then they would be respected a hell of a lot more. This would cause a lot more people to be willing to get involved in the protests, rather than be embarrassed by it. It makes a lot more sense to protest peacefully (and actually peacefully) with a larger number of people than to be aggressive with about 10-20 people.

I don't care for this argument that 'you weren't there and are just judging the protest on a 4 minute video' because I don't agree with anything I saw in the video. It shouldn't happen that way, whether it was like that the whole time or not.

PomBear

Ficheall wrote: »

A commendable idea. Why don't people protest about that then? If they are so concerned about their education?

You may or may or not know, FEE has 5 members on the SU exec and the other SU members have been running numbers of academic reform plans. If you are concerned, what do you do?

Ficheall wrote: »

Why shouldn't students pay for their own education though?

To revert back to an earlier analogy and paraphrase slightly:
"Just because you don't believe a boat is worthwhile, there's no reason to believe that people should pay for their own boats and leave people who can't afford it with no means to pay for a boat that's worth anything".
Would that argument float, so to speak?

Because education is a right and not a privilege or a commodity that has a price. If you live in a democracy with an institutionalised Government, the Government defines itself to provide their citizens free will and the opportunities and means to be all they can be. If you put education into a monetary valuation, what's the point in the government in providing the citizens with an education system in which you learn how to read and write? Or why not only teach the rich in our society how to read and write?

PomBear

Red_Wake wrote: »

I'm not a FF supporter you twit.:eek:

And I certainly wouldn't take anything a TD says as gospel.

You refer to the protesters as "the lads" in another post - I assume you're a protester yourself?

I am

Ficheall is right about the education system, I've seen too many people spend their years in college on the piss, and the end result being a **** degree that wasn't worth their time.


Do you not think that this is an unfair burden on the taxpayer?

Well i'll give the example, during the Celtic Tiger, what was one of its main factors? A skilled English speaking well qualified workforce.

If you have an education system that is open to everyone you have more qualified engineers, doctors, nurses, lawyers, IT technicians, pharmacists etc.

Now everyone is allowed to have their fun in college and enjoy the college experience and to be honest, those who don't study a fair amount, don't pass, it's as simple as.

More interestingly though, most of the lads I know who've done this came from families which would be considered traditionally middle class - their kids are working retail with their lovely college degrees, despite having been given every advantage.

I'll admit I wouldn't struggle to pay fees, but neither would plenty of my friends, despite their protestations. If students were as poor as they claim to be, the library wouldn't be comparable to a Milanese fashion show around exam time.

Unfortunately at this moment, those who are qualified for good career jobs cannot find jobs suited to their qualifications as the jobs simple aren't here, this is down to poor government in my opinion. Same goes for being on the dole or emigration, something it a poor situation for Ireland's youth. One of the reasons we were protesting I might add.....

As for a Milanese fashion show, i'd raise two points, one is that not everyone struggling Also, i'll give the example, when I was working, I could buy myself nice clothes, now I don't have a part-time job because I can't find one, I can't buy nice clothes but I still have nice clothes from when I could afford them.

PomBear

Sianery wrote: »

I think it's all well and good to make yourselves seen and protest about something without being aggressive towards anybody.

How were we acting aggressively, we blocked a road from FG getting into a hotel through its main entrance.

But the way in which these people protest definitely puts people off. If they decided not to bring pipes in order to break their arms (or get their arms broken, same diff) and shout 'f**k off' then they would be respected a hell of a lot more. This would cause a lot more people to be willing to get involved in the protests, rather than be embarrassed by it. It makes a lot more sense to protest peacefully (and actually peacefully) with a larger number of people than to be aggressive with about 10-20 people.

There were posters up around the campus about the protest at the FG think-in, not details of the lock-ins or blockade but yet where were you?

It wasn't anyone's intention to get their arms broke but if Gardaí had acted overly aggressively, they could have seriously injured the lads, we were worried about this when we saw the guards pull at them.

I, myself, asked over 20 FG TDs about fees that day, not one had the decency to respond to me and this was after the protest, they had no idea about I was a protester.
I have emailed, phoned and written to all of them, not one response.

I don't care for this argument that 'you weren't there and are just judging the protest on a 4 minute video' because I don't agree with anything I saw in the video. It shouldn't happen that way, whether it was like that the whole time or not.

How would you suggest we protest

Red_Wake

PomBear wrote: »

You may or may or not know, FEE has 5 members on the SU exec and the other SU members have been running numbers of academic reform plans. If you are concerned, what do you do?




Because education is a right and not a privilege or a commodity that has a price. If you live in a democracy with an institutionalised Government, the Government defines itself to provide their citizens free will and the opportunities and means to be all they can be. If you put education into a monetary valuation, what's the point in the government in providing the citizens with an education system in which you learn how to read and write? Or why not only teach the rich in our society how to read and write?

Let's not make this argument about something it's not.

Tbf, I reckon a higher percentage of the wasters I know in college are from privileged backgrounds, while some who wouldn't have gone through grind schools at secondary level have achieved very highly.

One of the problems with the education system, and even the nation in general, is the one size fits all approach - everyone should pay fees/ everyone should get free education.

I've always thought a system where a student would pay fees at the beginning of the year, and at the end of the year, would get a percentage of it back depending on their grades, as the government would pay it for them instead (ie. higher grades mean cheaper education).

It would ****ing well encourage students to take all years more seriously, and ensure that the wasters pay, while the lads who make the most of college will have no problems going back there, since it would be essentially free for them.

This is probably too meritocratic for the FEE crowd though.:rolleyes: