Cannonball Run in the Leaf

SV

MYOB wrote: »

Well, our EV-lover is trying to justify that they are in fact suitable for long distance driving...

Even though it's quite obvious they're not.


Capable of does not equal being suitable for.

flanders2006

Nissan Leaf charging!

-Chris-

flanders2006 wrote: »

Nissan Leaf charging!

Sesshoumaru

MYOB wrote: »

My average working day, and the average working day of anyone with a company vehicle, involves trips of lengths that would require a 30 minute "fast charge". I would have thought it was *quite clear* this is what I was talking about seeing as I was referencing the example journey of Dublin to Galway.

If I was extremely lucky I might end up having enough range to get to a work site that had a fast charging point, but seeing as I supply the medical industry and not motorways services or city centre car parks, thats not very likely now is it? So I'd be stuck in Athlone for 30 mins on the way home (or Monasterevin, or wherever. Probably twice on the way to Cork).

9500km of driving is a busy month for me. While my driving is higher than most, *any* field engineer, sales rep, etc is going to do mileage that'd require a 30 minute, employer paid for and lost earning time, break probably 3 to 5 times a week.



Oh, I'm aware. I'm also aware we haven't got a snowballs of meeting it.

My car is a family car. The Leaf isn't targeted at business people who do long distances every day. Same way a *insert random two seat sports car here* isn't suitable for someone with kids.

I really do wonder why you bring up your business requirements? I mean there must be plenty of fossil fuel cars that also don't meet your requirements? Does that mean all cars that don't meet your individual requirements are bad?

Sesshoumaru

Shane732 wrote: »

Sesshoumaru have you actually looked at the Leaf?



IMO it looks like total sh1t!

Over €30k for something that can't even do a run from Galway to Dublin, certainly wouldn't be my cup of tea.

You couldn't pay me to drive one of those.

Does the leaf have launch control like?!!

It looks better in black, that's the colour of my Leaf. What car do you have?

Sesshoumaru

MYOB wrote: »

Well, our EV-lover is trying to justify that they are in fact suitable for long distance driving...

I like how you try to label me "EV-lover", I'm obviously not part of the regular "motors gang" in your eyes :P

I've also been fairly consistent on the point that it is capable of longer journeys and it is suitable for occasional long journeys, which is what most people do.

listermint

Design wise Its not bad, somewhere between a Renault Clio and the Micra.

Sesshoumaru

unkel wrote: »

Am I alone here thinking this discussion is completely pointless? If you drive for a living or have a long commute, even the most competent EV available now (and surely we all agree that is the Leaf) will not do. Not by far. Not for at least another decade of magic evolution of batteries (that's what the dreamers and total optimists say) and probably never

However if you live in an urban area and do most of your driving in that urban area, and don't mind long delays and range anxiety on the odd unplanned longer trip, a Leaf might be a real alternative (given a massive subsidy paid for by the already overstretched tax payers to relatively rich people who already could afford to buy brand new mid market cars) , as it has proven to be for the OP

Entering a Leaf on a fun long distance trip meant to be for fancy cars is just plain wrong though

As a society we subsidise a lot of people and projects because we think they are worth while for society overall. Should I complain about people who get mortgage interest relief? rent subsidy? grants for their solar water heating? grants for insulating their homes?

I don't get any of those things, but they are deemed worthwhile to society overall. So I don't complain about those who get this money which comes out of my pocket. I don't agree with all of those, but I accept that a lot of things will happen that I don't agree with because I choose to live in society/community with rules etc.

Oh and I'm not rich, not even relatively speaking. My wife and I sold two perfectly good secondhand cars to buy our one Leaf. I have loan repayments which equal €500 per month. This is a very big outgoing for me! I would not normally be able to afford a car in this price bracket. However when doing my calculations I found we would be saving almost €200 per month on fuel compared to our A6 2.5TDI alone. That saving alone is what put it into the affordable category for me. You can't say someone who buys a 30k Leaf could also afford a brand new ICE car for the same price. That's an apples and oranges comparison and I haven't even gone into lower maintenance costs.

DanyEhrenbrink

Big Nasty

What time did this kick off this morning? 11am or so?

How many times has the leaf had to stop so far?:D

EDIT: Leaf on side of road

keithclancy

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I'm really happy for those of you with fossil fuel cars that don't need to stop once on a Dublin to Galway journey. For me it's a minor point. The big issue for me is the saving I make by owning an EV. I've previously posted my figures for July, I just checked online now for August and here is a screenshot:



At the end of the day the range of the Leaf is primarily determined by the capacity of the battery, which currently stands at 24kwh. It's just a battery though, when a better one becomes available I'll be able to replace it. The US version of the BYD e6 is already packing a 60kwh battery pack. Until then I'll live with my €10 per 1050km car

How much is a new battery pack ?

SV

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

It looks better in black, that's the colour of my Leaf. What car do you have?

Fair play for actually going out of the norm and buying one and all but man..it's not good looking. Sorry

DanyEhrenbrink

keithclancy wrote: »

How much is a new battery pack ?

When do you need one ? The pack can be replaced cell by cell if required and are likely not to fail, but to degrade over time... in 10 years or so ( expected are 15) they will hold 80% capacity.
( quick info on the matter, Nissan gives 5 years warrenty on all electrical parts including the battery pack)
-- There is no number out there yet for a new pack as Nissan has not yet build a new one. The latest news on the matter is that by 2015 they will offer the leaf with double the range.

SV

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCx5T4Sb-q4

mickdw

I would never buy a leaf for many reasons but as demonstrated in a previous thread on here, the running costs are stunning so for the people who can make it work with all its range issues etc, it makes absolute sense and tbh the initial additional cost of the car over a diesel alternative is not significant given the daily fuel savings.
Again as was pointed out to me previously, much of the 'efficiency' is down to night rate electricity costs which offer a significant saving still, thats where the price is at this time and it certainly makes sense.

barura

Guys n' gals, forgive me for suggesting this but how much space does the battery take up? Surely doubling the amount of batteries would solve a certain amount of this problem that is it's range? And increasing the aerodynamics a bit? It doesn't look so aerodynamic to me, for a car which needs no air intake in the conventional manner....

DanyEhrenbrink

barura wrote: »

Guys n' gals, forgive me for suggesting this but how much space does the battery take up? Surely doubling the amount of batteries would solve a certain amount of this problem that is it's range? And increasing the aerodynamics a bit? It doesn't look so aerodynamic to me, for a car which needs no air intake in the conventional manner....

This might answer your question. Besides the batteries are the most expensive part of the car at the moment, due to the limited amount build ( If more people would buy a car like this, the price will drop dramaticly)

keithclancy

DanyEhrenbrink wrote: »

When do you need one ? The pack can be replaced cell by cell if required and are likely not to fail, but to degrade over time... in 10 years or so ( expected are 15) they will hold 80% capacity.
( quick info on the matter, Nissan gives 5 years warrenty on all electrical parts including the battery pack)
-- There is no number out there yet for a new pack as Nissan has not yet build a new one. The latest news on the matter is that by 2015 they will offer the leaf with double the range.

5- 10 years actually .. depending on if you use a fast charge or not.

Also other factors are involved:

* Avoid exposing a vehicle to ambient temperatures above 120 °F (49 °C) for over 24 hours.

* Avoid storing a vehicle in temperatures below −13 °F (−25 °C) for over 7 days.

* Avoid exceeding 70 to 80% state of charge when using frequent (more than once per week) fast or quick charging.

* Allow the battery charge to be below at least 80% before charging.

* Avoid leaving the vehicle for over 14 days where the Li-ion battery available charge gauge reaches a zero or near zero (state of charge).

Also:
http://www.inautonews.com/nissan-leaf-battery-pack-costs-19k

After the unwanted advertisement on the Leaf, first with the UK Top Gear and now with Andy Palmer’s interview, Nissan is coming forward and announcing that the company is also offering a five-year / 100.000 km warranty on the Leaf’s electric components, that also includes the battery pack which is designed to last as long as the Leaf.

Basically your covered up to 5 years or 100,000km.

To replace the entire battery pack would cost 19,000 stg.

ottostreet

Anyone know what the BMW parked beside the electric car is? I'm assuming M5?

barura

DanyEhrenbrink wrote: »

This might answer your question. Besides the batteries are the most expensive part of the car at the moment, due to the limited amount build ( If more people would buy a car like this, the price will drop dramaticly)

Well why not get rid of the spare tyre and lash some batteries in there? Put a puncture repair kit or something? Bah, I'm losing my mind with these electric vehicles. For example, I was checking out electric vans and gave em a quick google and you get these: http://www.megavan.org/mega-vehicle-sales.htm Pretty crap range and charging.

The only reason stuff like this is even starting is because of government incentives. It's a false way of going about business.

Check this out though: http://evbmw.com/ THIS is what should be on the cannonball run. It show innovation for the EV market. I remember a company who were making swappable batteries based on liquid salt. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten_salt_battery#ZEBRA_battery That's a pretty good solution, I feel.

But again, back on topic. I think the leaf doing a cannonball run is silly without boasting a long range feature such as an expandable or interchangeable battery pack? It would not be difficult to find space in the boot! A car that can do a range of 160-200 miles would get my attention at that price of "fuel" for that range, but then again.... When will that happen?

Sesshoumaru

keithclancy wrote: »

5- 10 years actually .. depending on if you use a fast charge or not.

Also other factors are involved:



Also:
http://www.inautonews.com/nissan-leaf-battery-pack-costs-19k



Basically your covered up to 5 years or 100,000km.

To replace the entire battery pack would cost 19,000 stg.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1064332_nissan-leafs-battery-pack-should-last-as-long-as-the-car

“We are confident that [rapid] charging once a day will have no impact on the expected durability,” said a Nissan representative. “A single [rapid] charge plus a conventional charge per day would give enough to travel almost 200 miles a day, or 72,000 miles a year. The average motorist does less than 10,000 miles a year. An example from our telematics shows a privately-owned Leaf in Tokyo still has 100% charge capacity after 10,000 miles and 326 [rapid] charges."

“To make the maintenance of the Leaf as easy as possible, the “battery” is actually 48 batteries in a large box which can be replaced individually to keep costs low. Each is connected to the Leaf’s advanced telematics system so Nissan can monitor the health of each module remotely. The price quoted in the press of [$31,795] for an entire battery is not indicative of the actual cost. It is an extrapolation of the individual price of replacing a single battery multiplied by 48. The cost of a conventional engine and transmission built up from individually sourced parts would be similarly high”

Victor_M

Any car can do the cannonball run once the orgainisers allow it it, and in fairness as rarity goes the leaf is up there with SLR's & SLS's for the moment anyway.

The leaf is an interesting concept but a s a long term solution it has a few more years of development to go, I had a rental prius a few years ago and it was a surprisingly enjoyable experience, topped off when I only had to add €9 of petrol at the end of a weeks driving.

It will be interesting to see if the ESB have to cheat to get the car through the route, I was in Westport 2 weeks ago and there is an E charging post along one of the street that was permanently filled with non EV cars.

If they ever got popular enough (I don't think they will in EV only guise) but between busy charging stations, blocked stations, people disconnecting or stealing the cables etc there are so many obstacles. I forget to charge my mobile the odd night and its a PITA for the day, same with my laptop.

Also my last 3 laptops the weakest links have been the battery's, my last dell gave a warning 'you're battery has passed it usable life expectancy, you can still charge it but it's performance is dramatically reduced" (not the exact wording but something along those lines.) This error occured after less than 3 years, even before it started to error out the usefulness went from 8hrs to 5 very quickly less than 18 months in fact and rapidly went down hill form there.

I believe Nissans 10 year claim is a) under perfect lab conditions & b) if has to be charged using the guidelines that Nissan lay out (like full discharge before charge etc same as mobiles, they will have log data in the leaf and anyone who complains about premature battery degradation will have years of data collected thrown at them saying if you had followed the manufacturers guidelines etc.

The resale value of these will be atrocious given the huge cost of replacement cells.

The Diesel electro combo is, IMO short term the way to go, in fact that Volvo in the other thread looks great.

It will be interesting to see how the Leaf gets on cross country and wheter it can make it on it own without sneaky top ups from a support truck.

DanyEhrenbrink

keithclancy wrote: »

5- 10 years actually .. depending on if you use a fast charge or not.

Also other factors are involved:



Also:
http://www.inautonews.com/nissan-leaf-battery-pack-costs-19k



Basically your covered up to 5 years or 100,000km.

To replace the entire battery pack would cost 19,000 stg.

“The price quoted in the press of £19,000 for an entire battery is not indicative of the actual cost. It is an extrapolation of the individual price of replacing a single battery multiplied by 48. Nissan offers a five-year/100,000 km warranty on LEAF’s electric components including the battery pack. This battery pack is designed to last the lifetime of the car. If used in normal conditions, it is not expected that owners will ever have to replace the battery pack”

keithclancy

DanyEhrenbrink wrote: »

“The price quoted in the press of £19,000 for an entire battery is not indicative of the actual cost. It is an extrapolation of the individual price of replacing a single battery multiplied by 48. Nissan offers a five-year/100,000 km warranty on LEAF’s electric components including the battery pack. This battery pack is designed to last the lifetime of the car. If used in normal conditions, it is not expected that owners will ever have to replace the battery pack”

Essentially what they are saying is the life of the car is 5 years or 100,000km.

A battery is a consumable item, it is not the same as a transmission.

eagerv

I remember not that long ago when a colour tv cost a few months salary!

Battery technology will improve dramatically over the next few years, as will charging times.

Fair play to early users such as Sesshoumaru for presenting his experience with the Leaf in such a clear and precise way. Saw one yesterday near Dublin airport. I thought it looked pretty good, far better than most of the other anonymous new boxes on the road

Lord Derpington

eagerv wrote: »

As a car enthusiast and a technofile I would be very happy to drive any of the competing cars including the Leaf!

Even this?

Renault Megane 2 2.0 RS225 5DR

Sesshoumaru

keithclancy wrote: »

Essentially what they are saying is the life of the car is 5 years or 100,000km.

A battery is a consumable item, it is not the same as a transmission.

A real life example of a privately owned Leaf in Tokyo still had 100% capacity after 10,000 miles and 326 DC fast charges. Another real life example is the original RAV4 EV from Toyota, the ones remaining in the US are easily exceeding 100k and 150k miles on the original battery pack.

Which brings me to my next point about the battery pack. Why do you need to buy a new one? If it does degrade rapidly (which evidence so far indicates it won't) then Nissan have stated before they will refurbish your battery for a fraction of the cost of a new one. Then you're back to 100% capacity again.

SV

greenfly wrote: »

Even this?
[IMG]http://www.cannonball.ie/images/stories/igallery/accepted_cars/large/88_adam_casey.JPG Renault Megane 2 2.0 RS225 5DR[/img]

Why wouldn't you be happy to drive that?

fletch

greenfly wrote: »

Even this?

Renault Megane 2 2.0 RS225 5DR

Why "even this"? I think any car enthusiast would love a spin in that Megane.

Sesshoumaru

greenfly wrote: »

Even this?

Renault Megane 2 2.0 RS225 5DR

I'd like an understated hot hatch like that. I'd prefer if the Cannonball Run wasn't exclusively for expensive cars.