Leaving the catholic church

gent9662

Hi there,

I have finally come to the conclusion that I am leaving the catholic church. My first port of call was to go to http://www.countmeout.ie/ however it has suspended it's service due to some changes in the procedure for leaving.

One other question I have is what would be the impact on my family? I have 3 kids, two of which are in a catholic primary school.

theteal

dclane wrote: »

Hi there,

I have finally come to the conclusion that I am leaving the catholic church. My first port of call was to go to http://www.countmeout.ie/ however it has suspended it's service due to some changes in the procedure for leaving.

One other question I have is what would be the impact on my family? I have 3 kids, two of which are in a catholic primary school.

quite an understatement; they changed the rules to prevent anybody from leaving!

I'm sure your kids will make up their own minds as they mature, I'd do nothing on that front (except maybe feel guilty for inducting them without their consent )

At the moment, it appears that all you can do is fill out the census form properly the next time it comes around

magicbastarder

i don't think your status will affect your kids' status.
are you going to 'de-church' your kids?

robindch

dclane wrote: »

I am leaving the catholic church.

Anecdotally, it seems that the best you can hope for is for the parish to stick in a note beside your baptismal record to say that you no longer wished to be considered a member of their organization. However, the church will still consider you a catholic all the same, albeit a non-practicing one.

dclane wrote: »

One other question I have is what would be the impact on my family? I have 3 kids, two of which are in a catholic primary school.

Well, you could enjoy any or all of the following benefits:

• A lie in on Sunday morning
• Not having to listen to tedious moralizing on sex and marriage from men who have (or should have) no first-hand experience of either.
• No guilt related to things that irritated bronze-age goat-herders
• More quality time with your family
• More time available for important things in school
• Reduce your carbon foot print by not having to drive to mass
• Not having to pay church dues
• Not having to accept what Mr Ratzinger says
• etc, etc, etc

In terms of kids at school, the following page gives a useful run-down on what to do and expect:

http://www.teachdontpreach.ie/opting-out/

Other than that, enjoy your new-found family time!

legspin

I'm beginning to think a sticky on this particular topic may well be an good idea. This is the 4th or 5th thread on this topic in the last few months alone.

Lollipops23

I've decided to leave too and tried to go to the website. Am disgusted that they've changed the rules.
A few people I've mentioned it to can't see the point of officially "leaving"- the thing is, I don't WANT the church counting me as on of their own. I don't want any association with them. I'd like them to destroy my baptismal cert and any other documents they have on me.
I think writing to the bishop may be the only way forward...

magicbastarder

Lollipops23 wrote: »

I'd like them to destroy my baptismal cert and any other documents they have on me.

they won't, and nor should they.

robindch

Lollipops23 wrote: »

I think writing to the bishop may be the only way forward...

I'm hoping to drop by the parochial house next time I'm down south and get it sorted out then -- I'd like to see the reds of their eyes.

magicbastarder

it was probably the bishops who decided to change the rules.

Caulego

Lollipops23 wrote: »

I've decided to leave too and tried to go to the website. Am disgusted that they've changed the rules.
A few people I've mentioned it to can't see the point of officially "leaving"- the thing is, I don't WANT the church counting me as on of their own. I don't want any association with them. I'd like them to destroy my baptismal cert and any other documents they have on me.
I think writing to the bishop may be the only way forward...

Under natural law, unless you clearly state otherwise, the RCC owns you as property, like a chattel or object. By not making your wishes known your automatically give permission for the RCC to consider you to be their property, subject to their laws and beliefs i.e. blood-drinking, god-worshipping and obedient to the Pope in Rome etc. You might find this article on sovereignty of being to be useful in deciding what to do

http://www.sovereignlife.com/sovereign-individual.html

Lollipops23

magicbastarder wrote: »

they won't, and nor should they.

and why shouldn't they?

it's a historical document

Dont be at yourself

The record of my tesco club card transactions are a historical document, but they'd have to remove them at my request, right?

Caulego

Dont be at yourself wrote: »

The record of my tesco club card transactions are a historical document, but they'd have to remove them at my request, right?

Yes, under the law they would, as the information relates to private data relating to you. However, the RCC operates on a different club-card system. They decide what 'rights' you will and won't have. They don't recognise the law of the land and see their Roman law as being above it, as they see themselves as being the operatives of the alleged creator of everything, so therefore everything is theirs by 'divine right'. People don't question this notion, so they get away with it.

Your baptismal certificate is a document that attests to your parents signing you over to become property of the RCC, as they entered into a solemn contract on your behalf, in return for a promise that you would be 'saved' with all the other chattels. They, of course, in their ignorance of what this actually means, technically added you as a stock item to the shelves of other living commodities. You were then to be used or discounted at will, or to be treated as being obsolete, should your usefulness be no longer required. You became a commodity in the political and religious branding shopping wars, when their priests could use you to out-rival other oppositional and rival brand products. Your value as an item could be raised or lowered according to your contribution to the great Checkout Manager in the back office, who could rescan you at will.

Remember, the RCC, has an overall motto, somewhat similar to Tesco - "Every little child helps".

So, next time you shop, take a little time to give a thought for all those unwanted and below cost products that are dumped in the bargain basket at the end of the shopping isle of life - just like all the broken, shop-soiled and damaged people that are products of the price wars of blind belief in the unbelievable. 'Food' for thought, maybe? lol

magicbastarder

Dont be at yourself wrote: »

The record of my tesco club card transactions are a historical document, but they'd have to remove them at my request, right?

good question. they have to divulge any records on you to you at your request, afaik, but deleting the information is another matter.

you cannot ring your phone company or gas company and tell them to delete their records on you, but that is obviously going to be complicated by regulatory matters which don't apply to tesco.

Lollipops23

bluewolf wrote: »

it's a historical document

Yes but it's not a legal document. It's not like my birth cert or passport papers.

Also, the Tesco Transactions records are at least something we do as consenting grown ups. A document I had no say in as a baby is not something I want kept on file.

Delirium

Lollipops23 wrote: »

Yes but it's not a legal document. It's not like my birth cert or passport papers.

Also, the Tesco Transactions records are at least something we do as consenting grown ups. A document I had no say in as a baby is not something I want kept on file.

Do you want the hospital you were born in to delete your birth record too if you decide you would have rather been born in New York for example?

magicbastarder

Lollipops23 wrote: »

Also, the Tesco Transactions records are at least something we do as consenting grown ups. A document I had no say in as a baby is not something I want kept on file.

your parents (or your legal guardians) consented to it, so the issue of consent does not really arise.

Lollipops23

koth wrote: »

Do you want the hospital you were born in to delete your birth record too if you decide you would have rather been born in New York for example?

That's an important document that's needed by the country. My baptismal cert is not needed by the CC once I leave them. Even if they won't destroy it (which I'll be very annoyed if they don't) I'll be requesting copies of any documents they have belonging to me, as I don't even know what's written on them.

Delirium

Lollipops23 wrote: »

That's an important document that's needed by the country. My baptismal cert is not needed by the CC once I leave them. Even if they won't destroy it (which I'll be very annoyed if they don't) I'll be requesting copies of any documents they have belonging to me, as I don't even know what's written on them.

It actually is important to them. It's a historical record that you were made a member of the religion. Even though I'm no fan of the RCC removing the ability to leave the church, I wouldn't expect them to re-write history for me.

magicbastarder

it's an important sociological record. probably even more so because you have an objection to it. the ideal situation would be for them to put an addendum beside it recording your wishes not to be considered as catholic, but that's obviously not an option at the moment.

if all documents which were 'no longer needed' were destroyed, a lot of history would be wiped along with them.

Monty.

dclane wrote: »

Hi there,

I have finally come to the conclusion that I am leaving the catholic church. My first port of call was to go to http://www.countmeout.ie/ however it has suspended it's service due to some changes in the procedure for leaving.

One other question I have is what would be the impact on my family? I have 3 kids, two of which are in a catholic primary school.

You may have received a Catholic baptism, and that’s recorded, but it does not make you a Catholic.

To be/remain a Catholic you have to observe the five precepts of the Church.

Caulego

magicbastarder wrote: »

good question. they have to divulge any records on you to you at your request, afaik, but deleting the information is another matter. you cannot ring your phone company or gas company and tell them to delete their records on you, but that is obviously going to be complicated by regulatory matters which don't apply to tesco.

That's quite true about the phone or gas company, but at least they must furnish you with a closing statement, with confirmation that your contract with them has now ceased so long as the balances are paid by you or refunded to you, as the case may be. If you were unfairly charged or suffered loss in the course of your contract with such a body, then you might justly be entitled to fair and just compensation, but these same rules don't apply to religions and their 'services' when they fail to deliver on promised contracts. Why not? Have they set themselves above justice and right thinking?

When it comes to the RCC, they do their utmost to prevent your explicit exit from their imposed contract of servitude and ownership granted to them by your parents when you had no choice in the matter. Unless you assert your will not to be associated with them, in writing, stating clearly that you do not hold to their ownership of your being, and that you choose, as a sovereign being, to reclaim title to your mind and body, you lend your name and authority to the RCC (or any other such body or society), and you are their property by way of association.

Article 4.1 of the Irish Constitution sates that "No citizen shall be deprived of his personal liberty save in accordance with law."
If you are not free to exert your liberty by wilful disassociation from any society, church or other association previously claiming to own, rule, and enforce laws or other persuasions over you, then such a body is in breach of your rights under Article 4.1.
For example, what if a membership list should come to light with your name on it, wrongfully associating you with child abuse, theft, rape, slander or any other act or persuasion that is repugnant to your good conscience and sense of morality? Would you not make all reasonable effort to ensure that your good character is not tainted by such association? Therefore, why are the provisions of Article 4.1 not enforced by the State to make sure that your wish for acknowledged disassociation is ensured and enforced?

Article 44.2.1 states that "Freedom of conscience and the free profession and practice of religion are, subject to public order and morality, guaranteed to every citizen."

You have the right to exert your conscience, as you see fit, so you don't need to be religious to do this. In fact, if you actually work out and consciously choose to think outside any system of blind faith, you are more likely to draw your own conclusions rather than follow the habits of rote tradition that very often contradict themselves. Remember, the Article guarantees the right to both freedom of conscience and the practice of religion, and does not identify that both are in fact mutual or synonymous.

Article 44.2.2° states that, "The State guarantees not to endow any religion." Therefore, why should it grant rights of tacit or implicit ownership over your being by a church or organisation without your written and wilful consent?

Does it not then contradict itself, when it says in Article 44. 1. "The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honour religion.” ?
This deity is clearly the Christian trinitarian deity, as the Constitution was referred to the Vatican on two occasions for 'review', therefore assigning the rulership of the State into the authority of the RCC by way of entering into a contract for permission or approval.

So one might wonder how can its avowed pledge to work under the authority of such an entity not contradict the claim not to endow any religion, as Christianity is any religion? Weird, isn't it? Based on this kind of mindset, is it any wonder that we have so much mental illness in our society, where the 'citizen-flock' are led to accept such contradiction by way of social norms that are propagated through the education system, the judiciary and the religious bodies that profit from them? It appears that following blind faith doesn't stop with a sprinkle of holy water as you leave the church, but that its pervasive odour taints the very mind of the nation, which must surely and eventually fall in the course of following the rules of false and subtly achieved coercion.

Well, in case you ever wondered about this sort of thing, that's where the politicians come in, closely followed by their attendant bankers, once the people are subdued and herded into following blindly by the priests of religion.

I have heard a number of people wondering recently why it is that countries like Ireland, Portugal, Greece, Italy, Spain, Mexico, along with other priest ridden countries like Argentina, repeatedly end up in more or less the way, as the broken and basket-case victims of corruption and bankruptcy? Surely, if God did exist and was guiding them, then they could not fail because of his 'mighty and outstretched hand', but maybe his hand was outstretched for the cash instead of giving assistance? People might also rightly ask why religions pay no taxes, even if Jesus spoke about 'rendering unto Caesar', and even if what they mainly do is sell promises of things that would be regarded as false advertising if they were to be treated in the same way as other products and services sold in a similar manner.

The lesson is, "He who snoozes, loses", so maybe we will wake up one day to find that the 'dream' was just that - an illusion, and belief. Welcome to the rabbit hole .

Caulego

magicbastarder wrote: »

it's an important sociological record. probably even more so because you have an objection to it. the ideal situation would be for them to put an addendum beside it recording your wishes not to be considered as catholic, but that's obviously not an option at the moment.

if all documents which were 'no longer needed' were destroyed, a lot of history would be wiped along with them.

It is an option for them to do it, as they would if they had the right thinking minds to do so, but they choose not to. After all, if faith can move mountains, why can't it make something as simple as this happen?
As you why do they choose not to? Simply, because they decide not to, just like every and any person chooses not to do something: because they can. They are laughing at us, just like the bankers...all the way to the bank.

Caulego

Monty. wrote: »

You may have received a Catholic baptism, and that’s recorded, but it does not make you a Catholic.

To be/remain a Catholic you have to observe the five precepts of the Church.

That's not what the RCC operates under, as they use a devious argument that you can't be 'un-baptised', which is yet another canard to try and avoid reality. I have wondered if Catholics who were baptised by a paedophile priest are actually properly christened, as God would presumably not operate through and intermediary who was a pervert? Anyone?

magicbastarder

you're missing one salient point; and i think it's in fact the elephant in your particular room of argument, even though you claim it is not; the catholic church claiming me as a member does not mean i am a member.

the church claiming me as a member does not in any way inhibit me to practice my religious beliefs.
the church in claiming me as a member does not inhibit my liberty.
it's no comment on whether the state endows a particular religion in any way; nor should it be. it is me the state asks to fill in my religion on the census, not the church.

Bannasidhe

Since the RCC changed the 'rules' to prevent what were termed as 'Defection' - if you really want your name 'off the register' then the only available option is Excommunication or declared Apostasy.

Atheist Australia has some info on that on: http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/articles/easy-steps-excommunication

I had a glance at it - it would seem the Church doesn't make it easy...

As for the repercussions - there really are none.

I opted out years ago - I am no longer 'allowed' to participate in RC religious ceremonies or receive sacrements. No hardship there as I didn't do those anyway :rolleyes:. It hasn't prevented me attending funeral masses of close relatives and quietly not participating except by my presence- exactly the same as I have done over the years at Anglican, Presbyterian, Methodist. Jewish, Muslim and Hindi funerals/weddings. At my Aunt's funeral Mass in April there was a whole row of us!

It should not have any effect on your children's education - I assume the 'Catholic' school referred to is a National School. My son - who was never baptised - went to a NS - now sometimes they got a bit thick about him not participating in religion but that was nearly 20 years ago. As the OP's children are still RC (I assume) the issues to be faced will be communion and Confirmation.

The Mad Hatter

Monty. wrote: »

You may have received a Catholic baptism, and that’s recorded, but it does not make you a Catholic.

To be/remain a Catholic you have to observe the five precepts of the Church.

Can you mention that to the Church hierarchy, who regularly claim that there are over a billion catholics in the world?

Realtine

I looked into this many years ago, but apparently you can't leave, or at least you couldn't then. But I was thinking if I were to be baptized into, say, a Mormon church would Rome still consider me one of theirs?
Not that any of it bothers me anymore - I'm an non-believer, and if ever I have to be in church for 'event's' I just keep my mouth shut and don't take part in any way shape or fashion.

Monty.

Realtine wrote: »

I looked into this many years ago, but apparently you can't leave, or at least you couldn't then. But I was thinking if I were to be baptized into, say, a Mormon church would Rome still consider me one of theirs?
Not that any of it bothers me anymore - I'm an non-believer, and if ever I have to be in church for 'event's' I just keep my mouth shut and don't take part in any way shape or fashion.

As exlplained unless you observe the five precepts of the Church you are not a Catholic.

dvpower

Monty. wrote: »

As exlplained unless you observe the five precepts of the Church you are not a Catholic.

I wonder how many 'real' Catholics there are in the country?

1.The faithful are required to attend the celebration of the Eucharist every Lord's Day, Sunday or Saturday vigil, unless excused for a serious reason [i.e. illness or the care of infants]. CCC #1388-9; 2042; 2180
2.The faithful are required to confess sins at least once a year. CCC #1457; 2042
3.The faithful are required to receive Holy Communion at least once a year during the Easter season [but are encouraged to receive Christ in the Eucharist daily if possible]. CCC #1389; 2042
4.In addition to the Lord's Day the faithful are required to keep all Holy Days of Obligation. CCC #2043; 2177; 2180; 2185; 2187-8; 2192-3
5.The faithful are required to observe the prescribed days of fasting and abstinence. CCC #1387; 1438; 2043

magicbastarder

Realtine wrote: »

I looked into this many years ago, but apparently you can't leave, or at least you couldn't then. But I was thinking if I were to be baptized into, say, a Mormon church would Rome still consider me one of theirs?

well, the mormons will try to baptise you without your permission, so it may be worth asking them can you become apostate to mormonism?

Realtine

Monty you keep repeating yourself. But I'm sure that if I died in the morning and my family didn't know my wishes they would give me a catholic burial without me having attend mass or confession or any of that since I was a teenager. I would forever regarded as catholic!

Monty.

Realtine wrote: »

Monty you keep repeating yourself. But I'm sure that if I died in the morning and my family didn't know my wishes they would give me a catholic burial without me having attend mass or confession or any of that since I was a teenager. I would forever regarded as catholic!

Why have you not told your family ? Ever heard of a will ? That's what they are for.

Monty.

dvpower wrote: »

I wonder how many 'real' Catholics there are in the country?

Somewhere closer to the weekly mass attendance figures I would have thought, seeing as being a Catholic is no longer fashionable. And the less pseudo Catholics the better.

kildare.17hmr

i Didnt know you could leave! Must do that myself

dvpower

Monty. wrote: »

Somewhere closer to the weekly mass attendance figures I would have thought, seeing as being a Catholic is no longer fashionable. And the less pseudo Catholics the better.

Given this and the demographic of those attending mass, I foresee a massive number of schools being transferred out of Catholic patronage.

Penn

Monty. wrote: »

Somewhere closer to the weekly mass attendance figures I would have thought, seeing as being a Catholic is no longer fashionable. And the less pseudo Catholics the better.

It was never fashionable

Monty.

Barrington wrote: »

It was never fashionable

Actually it was, many's a pseudo Irish Catholic tried very hard make sure they were seen. Thankfully most of them have flitted off elsewhere to the latest fashion.

Tayla

If a woman attempts to be ordained then she is automatically excommunicated....I might go down tomorrow and ask them to ordain me

Monty.

dvpower wrote: »

Given this and the demographic of those attending mass, I foresee a massive number of schools being transferred out of Catholic patronage.

And the Catholics on the board of management will decide what Catholic owned schools they no longer need, and what they will accept in return.

Delirium

that was social pressure to be seen as a "good catholic", it wasn't because it was fashionable.

Monty.

koth wrote: »

that was social pressure to be seen as a "good catholic", it wasn't because it was fashionable.

Now there is a social pressure to be seen as a non Catholic. Much better.

hairy sailor

some interesting reading on this thread,been thinking about leaving for years,so far i've just put down no religion on the last census form,i've just been ignoring the church the last 20 years but finding it hard to ignore what its stand's for now & what it stood for,would like to make it official now.I don't want to be associated with them even if it is on a bit of paper in thier record's.

yawha

Monty. wrote: »

Now there is a social pressure to be seen as a non Catholic. Much better.

I guess the census will show whether you're correct or not with this claim.

Monty.

yawha wrote: »

I guess the census will show whether you're correct or not with this claim.

Why, is there social pressure to impress the census officer ?

Caulego

magicbastarder wrote: »

you're missing one salient point; and i think it's in fact the elephant in your particular room of argument, even though you claim it is not; the catholic church claiming me as a member does not mean i am a member.

the church claiming me as a member does not in any way inhibit me to practice my religious beliefs.
the church in claiming me as a member does not inhibit my liberty.
it's no comment on whether the state endows a particular religion in any way; nor should it be. it is me the state asks to fill in my religion on the census, not the church.

Yes, you are right: it is the State asking you to fill in your religion on the census form, but the State operates under its Constitution, which is overseen by the influence generated in the belief in the Christian deity, called 'God'. The opening lines in the Constitution set the framework for the overarching and specific religious ethos of the nation, where it states: In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred, We, the people of Éire, Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,

The Most Holy Trinity is a deity...so a supposed republic under a deistic oversight is not a democracy, but a theocracy. Ireland, as a supposed republic, was assigned to the authority and overarching governance of the RCC via a Constitution that was slanted towards their way of thinking, which is a belief system that is enforced and ensured by dogma and rote obedience. Why do you think that they are so touchy about handing over governance of primary schools? The need to train people to believe things, so that they can depend of the flocks to comply and buy into their sort of thinking by way of legal manipulation and assumed authority.
The reason they ask what religion you are is so the Government can guage your general thinking and the collective mindset, knowing that people who have allegiance to a deity are more easily goverened than those who do not question, because they have been taught since childhood to believe stories that make them feel better, not think better. They then use this a baromoter as to how their attendant politicians and bankers can manipulate the general populace into buying into other belief systems, like borrowing money that they think wont have to be paid back, and make a mint in the process. They work on greed and fear, both of which they promote by the imagined rights that believers tend to think some god has given them. They simply can't work out that it's all about convincing you to surrender your thinking to promises of 'salvation' that cannot be backed up by anything but imagination, as the authority of gods is only an idea, and not a fact, but if you are trained to accept strange and contradictory ideas since childhood, you will probably not overcome the implanted reactionary ideas that were put into your mind when you had not real faculty of reason.
They are not particularly interested in you specifically, as you are not important as an individual, just like as with the banks, but they use the information to build policy around and on top of public perceptions, which are influenced by beliefs. Religion is essentially a form of politics, as it operates on the level of influence of the thinking of the people, thus lending itself to guage how best to sell ideas about self image, what is permissable etc, but not by reasoning and fact, but by wishful thinking, which always end up in boom and bust process, as it is driven by emotion, fear and lack of common sense.

It's not clear if you are still a Catholic who follows the laws of the Church, but if your name is listed as being a member of that body and you have been taught to accept their rules then you are a follower of that persuasion, as that is part of the rules of belonging to that club. Even if you no longer accept all their rules, and think that your current beliefs have not been formed by your initial ritual training, you are still a believer of a different colour, so you will still manage to convince yourself that you now have control your mind, as one belief is the same as another anyway: blinkered.

Unless you dissent from the continued use of your name as a number of that church, you lend your name to its collective actions by way of association. The RCC only exists as a power in Ireland for as long as people continue to support it, just like any agency.

Realtine

Monty. wrote: »

Why have you not told your family ? Ever heard of a will ? That's what they are for.

I have and they do. and it's in print.

Delirium

Monty. wrote: »

Now there is a social pressure to be seen as a non Catholic. Much better.

Hardly comparable to the way things were when people were pressured into being "good Catholics".

I've yet to hear of any women being told to quit their job, because that's what a good atheist would do.

Caulego

Realtine wrote: »

Monty you keep repeating yourself. But I'm sure that if I died in the morning and my family didn't know my wishes they would give me a catholic burial without me having attend mass or confession or any of that since I was a teenager. I would forever regarded as catholic!

That's a good and relevant point, for if you do not make it part of your written legal and expressed wishes not to be so buried, then the likelihood of your family following what they feel to be the proper way to make sure you are 'returned to the bosom of God' are very stong. It's another victory for God when even your dead body is claimed for him. Not making your wishes known is the whole issue here, as in the matter of the Irish people who live under a delusion that they live in a properly functioning democracy. it is up to you, but if you don't care then that's your choice. Not making a decision also has consequences by way of not changing anything from the way it was before.

Monty.

koth wrote: »

Hardly comparable to the way things were when people were pressured into being "good Catholics".

I've yet to hear of any women being told to quit their job, because that's what a good atheist would do.

It's not a Catholic teaching and never was.