Autumn/Winter Core and general strength challenge discussion forum

T runner

Ok.

As threatened at the start of the summer heres a strenght challenge. Apparently if you do 3 strenght exercises a week it is extremely beneficial for your running (or triathlon) especially during the off season.

Two threads. The actual input thread for people to input their sessions (starting this coming monday) and this discussion thread seperate so it doesnt get lost in the other one.

Most of us have great plans that turn to rust after a few weeks. So this challenge should hopefully provide people with the motivation to see the strenght regime through. This should benefit the individuals in a big way hopefully and also any insight gained could be very beneficial for coaches here or to the collective boarg.

-So its 3 sessions a week min.
-Each session to be 5 mins working time .
-Time to be accumulated.
-If you do less than 3 sessions in a week you are deducted 10 mins from your accumalated time for each session you missed.
-You must increment your "missed sessions column by one".
-You can do as many sessions as you like per week to add to your accumulated time but you cant undo the missed columns amount (consistency is important).

Here is an excellent video to base running related strenght exercises on if needed.

http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=16625

Starting this coming monday. Ill stick the table thread up closer to time. The rules were made up 5 mins ago and may need tweaking. hers the palce for it and lets hope the challenge makes the participants a little stronger and faster!

nerraw1111

Excellent idea.

ecoli

Whats an "off season"?:D

Great idea as this is something I do tend to neglect from time to time

The video is great the only thing i would add that i find great and looks to be neglected on the routine is focusing on the back. With so many people confusing core with ab work often the back is neglected and as such people overwork the stomach without doing anything for the back

A Great exercise for this is the Superman

Also on top of strength exercises another thing that can greatly improve performance is drills. Normally I include these as part of my warm up on session days. Usually goes warm up, drills followed by session. These can be great for working on form and also have benefits in terms of strength

Here is a really good basic enough program

Some of the later exercises I wouldnt recommend if you are very injury prone but hopefully as you get stronger to start to include them

rom

So basically its pilates ?

ecoli

rom wrote: »

So basically its pilates ?

Pilates and Yoga can also be great forms of strength training and injury prevention yes

Seres

ecoli wrote: »

Pilates and Yoga can also be great forms of strength training and injury prevention yes

I did pilates alot last year in a class and then i did it on my own , a good workout on your own takes bout 40mins and it really doesnt miss any area to be strenghtened , even your back .
We started with the abs , upper and lower , legs and glutes one side , back (upper and lower ) , legs and glutes the other side , intermitent stretching is also done between stretches including back/ hip flexor/piriformis/glutes/hamstring/calfs .
I would highly recommended it as part of a winter program , as long as you get a good instructor , that is progressive with their classes and meticulous about how you do your stretches . I didnt do much pilates for the last 6 weeks but i def think the winter program 2010/2011 contributed greatly to an injury free HM program to date . Last year i bailed on the program because of an injury.

RubyK

Seres wrote: »

Iit really doesnt miss any area to be strenghtened , even your back .
We started with the abs , upper and lower , legs and glutes one side , back (upper and lower ) , legs and glutes the other side , intermitent stretching is also done between stretches including back/ hip flexor/piriformis/glutes/hamstring/calfs .

That sounds great! I'm starting a pilates course tomorrow. I'm really hoping it'll help with my dodgy body. I'm guessing it can't do any harm anyway

meathcountysec

T runner wrote: »

Ok.

any insight gained could be very beneficial for coaches here or to the collective boarg.

Not sure I want to help out that evil marauding tribe of aliens.

Seres

RubyK wrote: »

That sounds great! I'm starting a pilates course tomorrow. I'm really hoping it'll help with my dodgy body. I'm guessing it can't do any harm anyway

If you dont feel happy with the instructor , change !, i tried a few different ones and a good instructor is paramount . You need one that will progress you to more difficult exercises as you improve, corrrects you regularly and doesnt rush the class. You really need to stay in the exerise for a while to get the benefits . It really helps your posture and zaps those spare tires right away! ( not saying youve got them of course ). It really is a tough workout if done correctly , be prepared ! . I cant advocate it enough
Apologies for thread deviation

huskerdu

T runner wrote: »

-So its 3 sessions a week min.
-Each session to be 5 mins working time .
-Time to be accumulated.

Great idea.

One question
Why 5 minutes only and what is your definition of 5 minutes working time ?

BTH

Seres wrote: »

If you dont feel happy with the instructor , change !, i tried a few different ones and a good instructor is paramount . You need one that will progress you to more difficult exercises as you improve, corrrects you regularly and doesnt rush the class. You really need to stay in the exerise for a while to get the benefits . It really helps your posture and zaps those spare tires right away! ( not saying youve got them of course ). It really is a tough workout if done correctly , be prepared ! . I cant advocate it enough
Apologies for thread deviation

Do you mind me asking where you found the most helpful class? And where to avoid? Thanks

T runner

huskerdu wrote: »

Great idea.

One question
Why 5 minutes only and what is your definition of 5 minutes working time ?

5 mins working time would be 5 mins actually doing the activities in question.

So if you did say a circuit session 30 secs on and 10 secs off by 10 and 3 sets than that would be 15 mins working time. The 30 secs could be press ups, squats, sit ups etc. Basically its the time while you do the exercise. Not counting any restring time.

If youre doing Pilates and Yoga then you need to subjectively evaluate how much time is spent on strenght. Equate it to continous press ups. An hours yoga therefore might be worth 15-20 mins strenght. Any thoughts here?

Differents sessions could be circuits, gym, weights, pilates.


Actually a list of venes where running related circuits take place that can be attended by runners might be handy. There is one that takes place in Stillorgan on wednesday evening for orienteers and hillruners.

T runner

STARTS MONDAY 10/9/2011

Rules:
::::Any comments on comments thread not this one. This is for updating times only
::::3 sessions a week min.
::::Each session to be 5 mins working time. Working time is what counts, not resting time. If unsure roughly count 1 hr of Pilates or Yoga as 20 mins working time.
::::Time to be accumulated.
::::If you do less than 3 sessions in a week you are deducted 10 mins from your accumalated time for each session you missed.
::::You must increment your "missed sessions column by one".
::::can do as many sessions as you like per week to add to your accumulated time but you cant undo the missed columns amount (consistency is important)
::::Can be a session at home, circuits, Pilates, Yoga etc anything beneficial for running/triathlon. Drills are acceptable for example.
::::Challenge continues till the Spring.

Videos that may help:
Running Times progression series
Superman exercise
From Ecoli: A thing that can greatly improve performance is drills. Normally I include these as part of my warm up on session days. Usually goes warm up, drills followed by session. These can be great for working on form and also have benefits in terms of strength

Here is a really good basic enough program
Some of the later exercises I wouldnt recommend if you are very injury prone but hopefully as you get stronger to start to include them

Name|Category|Strenght Minutes|Missed Sessions|
T Runner|M|5|

seanynova

great idea T runner,
ill join in for the winter months but right now dont really have the time (i know - poor excuse) but looking forward to giving core/stretching a good go...it will range between -30 & -40deg for a lot of winter where i am so ill be locked up indoors with nothing but time.

edit: just watch the 1st video, no excuse...should be able to get those done without going into overtime! & i think i broke the 1st rule...sorry!

huskerdu

Just did a drills / strength session using the videos recommended by ecoli and Trunner. It was a good workout. Thanks lads.

Seres

BetterThanHoyte wrote: »

Do you mind me asking where you found the most helpful class? And where to avoid? Thanks

I dare say i will be of much help because i do the classes up in Leitirm/Roscommon . If you still want to know who i found good let me know ? I wont be advising on who to avoid though , i wouldnt feel its fair cause its only my personal opinion

Krusty_Clown

Definitely up for this challenge, particularly over the winter months, but with just a couple of weeks to goal marathon, I'll hold-off before joining up until after the goal race.

Slogger Jogger

I'm up for this too. Earlier this year when I couldn't run I found that the occasional exercise session kept me sane and probably helped when I started running again.

I tried quoting the table in the other thread to add my first session but couldn't get the table to display properly.. just got code

huskerdu

Slogger Jogger wrote: »

I tried quoting the table in the other thread to add my first session but couldn't get the table to display properly.. just got code

This happened me too. BUT, I then discovered that if I left it like that, and re-entered the thread from the ART page, the table was OK. I hope I explained that correctly.

Try it and see if it works for you.

Slogger Jogger

huskerdu wrote: »

This happened me too. BUT, I then discovered that if I left it like that, and re-entered the thread from the ART page, the table was OK. I hope I explained that correctly.

Try it and see if it works for you.

Taa huskerdu. The preview obviously isn't built for showing tables.

I dig your boardsie name by the way. If its a musical reference it takes me back a ways....

RoyMcC

I'm in. For a different reason to most here. In my late 50s I've never really done any conditioning work - though I coach it lots I'm finding that I've lost a lot of flexibility/agility so I'm going to combine this conditioning work with a stretching programme, see what happens. It might even help the running.

Ryder

surprised at how effective core work can be. Been doing 10 mins 3 times a week of ; press ups, planks, superman and bridges.....and very little other training. Went swimming for the first time in almost 2 years this evening and knocked out 50ish lengths in 40mins. Not fast I know but really felt the strong core made swimming effortless

GoHardOrGoHome

Thanks for setting this up T Runner. Hopefully the collective peer shame will force me to do these routines. First video was good. Will continue with that for a week or two before introducing tougher workouts.

TFBubendorfer

I started doing core work loads of times, always gave it up after a couple of weeks. Who knows, this could be just the kick up the arse I obviously need. Will give it a go.

Thanks, T runner!

T runner

GoHardOrGoHome wrote: »

Thanks for setting this up T Runner. Hopefully the collective peer shame will force me to do these routines. First video was good. Will continue with that for a week or two before introducing tougher workouts.

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I started doing core work loads of times, always gave it up after a couple of weeks. Who knows, this could be just the kick up the arse I obviously need. Will give it a go.

Thanks, T runner!

Im the same. It will be interesting to see the results of consistant strenght training. Hopefully it will be significant!

Going to experiment with some sessions to help the strenght. EG i did a 12 by 400m @5k pace rest 1 min.....once per week and added 2 per week over the summer. Got up to 18 reps. Im thinking of the same session except uphill. (not steep). Also going to look at the strenght/weight ratio again over the winter.

The wwks getting on. Better get a strenght done tommorrow!!!!

T runner

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Definitely up for this challenge, particularly over the winter months, but with just a couple of weeks to goal marathon, I'll hold-off before joining up until after the goal race.

Will be goos for active recovery after marathon. Do you normally btake a few weeks off or do the P and D recovery/transition?

T runner

Just answering a few questions from Husker Duu

A few short questions to clarify how this works.
Are you going to start a new table each week ?

No new table per week. Same table until the spring.

Do we need a column for the number of sessions done this week ?

Good idea will include now.

When do we start - you listed the start date as Monday 10/9. was that supposed to be Sat 10/9 or Monday 12/9

Supposed to be Monday. I think i mentioned this in both threads. I wasnt in a postion to set up the table after saturday so thats why i posted the table then, with the instruction of a monday start.

Sorry to be pedantic but can we spell strength correctly. I might just explode with stress and give up completely, if the same spelling error exists for the winter on this thread

Someone has kindly obliged. Ill put the rules above the table on the other thread so

BTH

Seres wrote: »

I dare say i will be of much help because i do the classes up in Leitirm/Roscommon . If you still want to know who i found good let me know ? I wont be advising on who to avoid though , i wouldnt feel its fair cause its only my personal opinion

Originally a Longford man, but stuck in the big smoke so unfortunately your advice won't help. Thanks tho.

Can anyone recommend yoga or pilates classes in dublin citycentre or north city?? Looking around there seems to be plenty on, but quality is more difficult to find out about.

Peterx

Went indoor rock climbing in UCD last night, my form of winter strength training. I was too weak to get on the steeper walls so didn't actually activate my core though:o
Great idea though T runner, I must look at the 10 minute video and try to follow the plan

GoHardOrGoHome

Did a nice session tonight which I think is an exact copy of the first video

http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=16625#1

Just thought it might be handy to have it written down rather than trying to remember what was in the video.

I did this after a twenty minute run in Marlay park.

Plank
Left side plank
right side blank
back (?) plank

Clams x 10 (left)
Clams x 10 (right)

Lateral leg raise x 4,4,4 (left leg, toe in, toe neutral, toe out)
Lateral leg raise x 4,4,4 (right leg, toe in, toe neutral, toe out)

Donkey kicks x 10 (left)
Donkey kicks x 10 (right)

Donkey whip x 5 (left)
Donkey whip x 5 (right)

Fire hydrant x 10 (left)
Fire hydrant x 10 (right)

Knee circles x 10 (left leg, inward direction)
Knee circles x 10 (left leg, outward direction)
Knee circles x 10 (right leg, inward direction)
Knee circles x 10 (right leg, outward direction)

Standing up...

Hurdle leg x 10 (left leg, forward)
Hurdle leg x 10 (right leg, forward)

Hurdle leg x 10 (left leg, backward)
Hurdle leg x 10 (right leg, backward)

Lateral leg swings x 10 (left)
Lateral leg swings x 10 (right)

Straight leg swings x 10 (left)
Straight leg swings x 10 (right)

Bent knee leg swings x 10 (left) (pawing the ground like a bull!)
Bent knee leg swings x 10 (right)

That's it!

T runner

GoHardOrGoHome wrote: »

Did a nice session tonight which I think is an exact copy of the first video

http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=16625#1

Just thought it might be handy to have it written down rather than trying to remember what was in the video.

I did this after a twenty minute run in Marlay park.

Plank
Left side plank
right side blank
back (?) plank

Clams x 10 (left)
Clams x 10 (right)

Lateral leg raise x 4,4,4 (left leg, toe in, toe neutral, toe out)
Lateral leg raise x 4,4,4 (right leg, toe in, toe neutral, toe out)

Donkey kicks x 10 (left)
Donkey kicks x 10 (right)

Donkey whip x 5 (left)
Donkey whip x 5 (right)

Fire hydrant x 10 (left)
Fire hydrant x 10 (right)

Knee circles x 10 (left leg, inward direction)
Knee circles x 10 (left leg, outward direction)
Knee circles x 10 (right leg, inward direction)
Knee circles x 10 (right leg, outward direction)

Standing up...

Hurdle leg x 10 (left leg, forward)
Hurdle leg x 10 (right leg, forward)

Hurdle leg x 10 (left leg, backward)
Hurdle leg x 10 (right leg, backward)

Lateral leg swings x 10 (left)
Lateral leg swings x 10 (right)

Straight leg swings x 10 (left)
Straight leg swings x 10 (right)

Bent knee leg swings x 10 (left) (pawing the ground like a bull!)
Bent knee leg swings x 10 (right)

That's it!

Nice one Go Hard. Handy little printout to have by the side when doing the exercises.

Schoolie D

I probably should have introduced myself a bit....

Thanks for setting up the challange T Runner. Its a great idea. I've been trying to stick to the running times videos too.

The first one (the one posted above) is a very good starting off point. I must say I've had a good ache in my "glutes" over the last day or so....

Just need to remember to run a few miles too.

GoHardOrGoHome

@Schoolie D - you quoted an old table and lost a couple of updates. I've taken shotgunmcos's update, added yours and Captain P's. Think it's okay now.

@T Runner - what's the story here? You're supposed to be leading us all in the charge! 4 days in and only one session?!

TFBubendorfer

GoHardOrGoHome wrote: »

@Schoolie D - you quoted an old table and lost a couple of updates. I've taken shotgunmcos's update, added yours and Captain P's. Think it's okay now.

@T Runner - what's the story here? You're supposed to be leading us all in the charge! 4 days in and only one session?!

Ironically, you'd missed T Runners' update when you fixed the table.

captain P

Thanks for setting it up T Runner.

Normally do a pilates class on Thursdays but can't make it tonight... I'll have to improvise with some from that runningtimes session instead :eek:!!

Schoolie D

GoHardOrGoHome wrote: »

@Schoolie D - you quoted an old table and lost a couple of updates. I've taken shotgunmcos's update, added yours and Captain P's. Think it's okay now.

@T Runner - what's the story here? You're supposed to be leading us all in the charge! 4 days in and only one session?!

Sound for that....

T runner

GoHardOrGoHome wrote: »

@Schoolie D - you quoted an old table and lost a couple of updates. I've taken shotgunmcos's update, added yours and Captain P's. Think it's okay now.

@T Runner - what's the story here? You're supposed to be leading us all in the charge! 4 days in and only one session?!

Just after a 2 week end of season rest so going to crank it up slowly.

Will try to stay within a half hour of the leaders and make my charge later!

GoHardOrGoHome

Did my third for the week yesterday. Might even throw in a quick session tonight. It's all about the peer pressure!

GoHardOrGoHome

@RacoonQueen - yep, doing your own strength session is perfectly okay. The videos were just for people who don't have a clue where to start (like me!).

You could post your workout here for us to see what it's like and give us a few ideas.

I have a print out of my session but I've pretty much learned it off now which is nice. Day 1 of week 2 and I've done my first session. Hoping to get three workouts done between Monday to Friday, then if I do another one at the weekend it's a bonus!

T runner

Just to note:

The 3 sessions per week are from the day you sign up. So you havent "missed" sessions if you join later than teh official start point last week. (the more the merrier joining up)

Also if you miss sessions that need a time deduction can be done at the end of teh chelenge (partcularly for people who are top table).

The idea is to keep the missed sessions figure at Zero or as low as possible.

GoHardOrGoHome

5th session today for me. Longer one than normal. Plank by 60 seconds in each of the four positions. Did this twice. My left side lower back is definitely weaker. That was the only position which I wanted to collapse after 30 seconds but managed to hold on. Phew! Hopefully if I can continue to do these sessions I'll address this imbalance.

Then the myrtl routine.

15 minutes total.

T runner

Lunchtime session today consisted of what i could remember from the first Vid, and a few old reliable routines. Staring to feel a little stronger. My jog over felt a little more solid (my trunk).

BTW

A journal of physiology study found that a group exercising 3 times a week for a number of weeks and taking carb/protein refreshment immeditately after the session gained 15% in strenght of the exercising muscles by the studys end.

A group who took on substenance only after 2 hours did not make a significant gain in strenght. From Ftzgeralds book on butrition for runners. Dont have link to actual study.

So..get a healthy snack in right after the session. Eating time not to be counted in overall minutes although it seems to contribute almost as much!

RoyMcC

GoHardOrGoHome wrote: »

Plank by 60 seconds in each of the four positions

Respect! I managed 17 secs tonight in the supine position, collapsed and had to haul myself back up for three more seconds :pac:

I have room for improvement...

TFBubendorfer

T runner wrote: »

A journal of physiology study found that a group exercising 3 times a week for a number of weeks and taking carb/protein refreshment immeditately after the session gained 15% in strenght of the exercising muscles by the studys end.

Gaining extra strength is all good and well, but the only thing that interests me, did they run any faster as a result of it?

T runner

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Gaining extra strength is all good and well, but the only thing that interests me, did they run any faster as a result of it?

I assume the test was just for measuring strenght.

Having a strong core and trunk will make youre average speed faster in races compared to having relatively weak ones due to having the strenght to run with better running form and to hold running form for the duration of the race.

The study may be relevent to us in that it implies that what time we eat after these exercises determinses how much strenght well garner from them.

Im thinking of getting/mixing protein/carb powder and having a drink directly after each session.

Hoping to do an uphill fartlek session today. It wont be that tough but i will concentrate on excellent form. This should be easier as the body gets stronger.

TFBubendorfer

T runner wrote: »

Having a strong core and trunk will make youre average speed faster in races compared to having relatively weak ones due to having the strenght to run with better running form and to hold running form for the duration of the race.

Not necessarily. It's about endurance, not strength, so a stronger core as such will not make you run a single second faster.

I'm not denying the benefits of a stronger core, otherwise I would not take part in this challenge. But I do question the value of any scientific study as far as my running performance is concerned if it does not state "this made the runners run faster".

JJJJNR

Thanks T-Runner, I'm strength training twice a week as part of my marathon training, Wednesday and Saturday, so this will be great to keep track of things and to keep it up after the marathon.

Also how do I know what category I am for the table, sorry if I missed a post somewhere I did actually read them all..

huskerdu

JJJJNR wrote: »

Thanks T-Runner, I'm strength training twice a week as part of my marathon training, Wednesday and Saturday, so this will be great to keep track of things and to keep it up after the marathon.

Also how do I know what category I am for the table, sorry if I missed a post somewhere I did actually read them all..

Are you male or female and what age are you.

M40 = 40-44
M45 = 45-49
M50 = 50 -55 etc, etc

JJJJNR

Thanks, think I got it right have done two sessions last week both 1 hour each, I've done 1 this week but will update the log next week so does that look ok.?

T runner

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Not necessarily. It's about endurance, not strength, so a stronger core as such will not make you run a single second faster.

I'm not denying the benefits of a stronger core, otherwise I would not take part in this challenge. But I do question the value of any scientific study as far as my running performance is concerned if it does not state "this made the runners run faster".

You are wrong there Thomas i think. As i pointed out a stronger core will make your form better (strenght) and youll be able to hold it for longer (strenght endurance).

If you are acknowledging that a stronger core is beneficial for running, then i would have thought that eating habits that improve the success of core strenght training must also be beneficial.

The study was mentioned in a book concerned with nutrition for endurance athletes. (I did look but cant find the study online.) That would indicate the author at least held value to it.

The majority of scholarly articles from pubications like the journal of Physiology are not specific to running (or any other sport). This does not mean we cant extrapolate value from them.

It was just a mention of advice that i agree with. Anyone is free to take it or leave it.

On another note, the 5 minute minimum requirement was to stop people being tempted into doing too little in order to fulfill the 3 a week condition.

I did 2 of 5 mins to start with. (30 secs: pressup/plank on 4 sides) by 2
and it was worthwhile.

If people think its too little or too much, have your say, or if any other aspects can be tweaked too.

The original idea was motivation to do this type of training consistently over a long period. The challenge and its rules provides the minimum platform to achieve this hopefully.

GoHardOrGoHome

RoyMcC wrote: »

Respect! I managed 17 secs tonight in the supine position, collapsed and had to haul myself back up for three more seconds :pac:

I have room for improvement...

Thanks Roy!
Hmm, maybe I'm not doing it right! I feel it in my hamstrings. Maybe I'm not lifting my pelvis high enough. The left side is definitely the weakest for me.

Couldn't fit in a run today (excuses!) but at least I managed to do a pretty good 20-ish minute core/strength session. Approx 15 minutes of "real" work. Going to start on the second video next week.

I'm shockingly bad at push ups. Don't think I could do ten at the moment. In the past I've been able to do 40 or so but I worked up to that. Might start that 100 push up challenge again. Wherever did that go?!