Irish universities tumble in rankings - tuition fees now inevitable?

Permabear

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XxMCRxBabyxX

Permabear wrote: »

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+1

And I'm a completely broke student (with broke parents) who would have to pay those fees.

We should be aiming for better education, not average education because it costs less. I would be happy to pay if it gave me a better degree.

Although, should fees be implemented I would like to see them be introduced with the same system as Sweden (and other places I think) where the government will pay and you pay them back through your salary once you start to earn over a certain amount. That way everyone can still get the same education without the complaints that people with more money can do better. It keeps everything equal imo.

Manach

Well, some colleges are introducing new ways to increase their revenues. The latest is "late payment fees" if you don't have your monies paid up - an extra bit is owed. Personally I'll be querying the Dept. of Education on the legality of this.

vellocet

the only problem with this logic is that in the real world any monies raised from fees will come straight off the top of their grants from the state leaving them net net.

Craguls

I'm also somewhat in favor of fees however it'd probably mean I couldn't afford college.

Downside of the free fees model is that it's somewhat open to abuse as well. Back in my LC year there were plenty of people who wanted to join the guards, army or the fire brigade but knew they wouldn't get in, they openly admitted to going to college for the year to have fun and flunked out by summer instead of trying find jobs, wasting only time, money and resources.

Germany seems to have it right in my opinion. College is paid for by the state but if you fail a year then drop out or don't proceed to a following year post transferring to a difficult course you foot the fees depending how far you had come. Eliminates abuse of the system anyway.

Sunny!!

this would cause uproar in the country!

But, i don't think it would be terrible, if my degree was worth more in the end i wouldnt mind:)

but if they were to re-introduce fees, i think it would have to be in instalment's, because otherwise it would be closing a lot of doors to people, as the money just isn't out there any more.

AlekSmart

Craguls wrote: »

I'm also somewhat in favor of fees however it'd probably mean I couldn't afford college.

Germany seems to have it right in my opinion. College is paid for by the state but if you fail a year then drop out or don't proceed to a following year post transferring to a difficult course you foot the fees depending how far you had come. Eliminates abuse of the system anyway.

Sadly,for us,this "Germany has" element is becoming more prevalent across a broad spectrum of stuff we have to try and rescue...

The decades of being a race famed for the "Craic" has slammed into a brick wall with a vengance and we do not like it one little bit.

Byron85

Introduce a loans system similar to the British or Swedish model. Fix the grants system and increase the amount of money available to people who are eligible but only as long as the grants are targeted at those who truly need them. If people want to complain, then let them. All they have to do is not go to third level.

Without free fees and the grants system there is no way myself or my younger sister would be in third level but if there was a system such as the one I mentioned above, i'd still go to third level. If you truly want to be educated, you'll bite the bullet so to speak. I'm looking at postgrads in England at the moment and my fees will be upwards of €7,000 or thereabouts. My sister refuses to even consider looking at postgrads in England as she "doesn't want to get into debt" and would prefer to stay in Ireland where it's free. If it comes down to paying for a world class education or staying in a below average university where it's free, in her case NUIG, the latter is often picked. I think it's rather indicative of the Irish mentality when it comes to education.

djpbarry

Permabear wrote: »

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I wouldn’t have an issue with tuition fees being reintroduced as long as it is done in a fair and equitable manner, such that everyone, regardless of background, has access to the same opportunities.

Craguls wrote: »

Germany seems to have it right in my opinion. College is paid for by the state but if you fail a year then drop out or don't proceed to a following year post transferring to a difficult course you foot the fees depending how far you had come. Eliminates abuse of the system anyway.

I believe Belgium operates a similar system, but could be wrong. My only problem with such an approach is that it puts a lot more pressure on the students and severely punishes failure – completing your degree essentially means you “win” your third-level education. I’d prefer a system whereby one eventually pays for one’s own education, regardless of whether or not one graduated. The tricky part is keeping entrance to third-level merit-based, rather than education being auctioned off to the highest bidders.

anymore

Permabear wrote: »

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I am puzzled here - introducing fees will not replace the existing Professors who have fixed tenure and who presumably set standards. The reality is that it was predicted before the first benchmarking exercise that standards would fall as a result - so maybe the first job is to determine how benchmarking has affected irish education.

numbnuts77

A big reason why Irish universities are sliding down these rankings is due to poor performance on the research front. The universities will blame cuts in funding but this ignores the fact that quite a number of our academics never do any research even though they have been in permanent jobs for 10, 15, 20 years. I am just finishing up a postgrad course in the Kemmy Business School in UL and I'm appalled that a number of my lecturers have never published a single journal paper even though they have been there for years (and I'm paying them €6k in fees btw). For example, try find one publication attributable to one of these two:
Jim Donoghue http://www2.ul.ie/web/WWW/Faculties/Kemmy_Business_School/Departments/Management_&_Marketing/Faculty_&_Staff/Jim_Donoghue

John Walsh http://www2.ul.ie/web/WWW/Faculties/Kemmy_Business_School/Departments/Management_&_Marketing/Faculty_&_Staff/John_Walsh

There are more who have never or barely published anything even though 40% of their time is supposed to be spent on research. What do they do if they do not do any research? I'm really annoyed because it is us the students who will be asked to pay extra in fees while the university will continue to carry these freeloaders. I only have experience in the Kemmy Business School in UL but read Richard Tol's report for the ESRI - the freeloading academic exists in all universities - at least in Business Schools anyway.

djpbarry

djpbarry wrote: »

My only problem with such an approach is that it puts a lot more pressure on the students and severely punishes failure – completing your degree essentially means you “win” your third-level education. I’d prefer a system whereby one eventually pays for one’s own education, regardless of whether or not one graduated. The tricky part is keeping entrance to third-level merit-based, rather than education being auctioned off to the highest bidders.

I don't see any element of "winning" anything: if you work and pass you will be fine. It would help keep things merit-based as well.

Wolfe Tone

If fees where introduced I wouldn't be able to go to college, I can barely afford the 2 grand reg fee.

Under the current system not everyone who needs a grant qualifies.

Alopex

You already have tuition fees. 2K a year. Its amazing the irish government have convinced the nation they have free third level education by using the words "registration" and "recapitation"

They should be increased. As the OP states the current model is not sustainable. However there should be a loan system in place so they don't have to be paid upfront.

AlekSmart

anymore wrote: »

I am puzzled here - introducing fees will not replace the existing Professors who have fixed tenure and who presumably set standards. The reality is that it was predicted before the first benchmarking exercise that standards would fall as a result - so maybe the first job is to determine how benchmarking has affected irish education.

AAhh...Benchmarking...what a stroke of true genius....:D

This scheme has played a major contributing role in all of our current difficulties.

The Germans probably have a word for it......:eek:

anymore

djpbarry wrote: »

I wouldn’t have an issue with tuition fees being reintroduced as long as it is done in a fair and equitable manner, such that everyone, regardless of background, has access to the same opportunities.
I believe Belgium operates a similar system, but could be wrong. My only problem with such an approach is that it puts a lot more pressure on the students and severely punishes failure – completing your degree essentially means you “win” your third-level education. I’d prefer a system whereby one eventually pays for one’s own education, regardless of whether or not one graduated. The tricky part is keeping entrance to third-level merit-based, rather than education being auctioned off to the highest bidders.

Maybe you could let us know if you received what is known as ' free third level' education in the past - if you have got a third level qualification.

Bannasidhe

My own experience of working in third level is that I have encountered far too many students who seem to have no study ethic and I am increasingly convinced that the lack of financial imperative driving them towards obtaining high marks is partially to blame. This was brought home to me a few years ago when I had a class of 180 first years which included a group of 20 'visiting' students - mostly from the US. At least half the Irish students complained constantly about the work load ( 2 x 1,500 essays and a 1.5 hour exam), complained about the amount of reading, were late with assignments (if they did them at all) and were generally disinterested and unmotivated. The contrast with the visiting students was marked - they asked questions, entered into debates, emailed/called in during office hours and generally were determined to get their monies worth.
I have discussed this with colleagues and we all agreed - we love the sight of Americans and mature students and dread classes composed entirely of post-leaving certers.

AlekSmart

bluewolf wrote: »

I don't see any element of "winning" anything: if you work and pass you will be fine. It would help keep things merit-based as well.

This is indeed true Bluewolf,however even this thread outlines the sense of awfulness that surounds the concept of students being "pressurized" to achieve stuff.

Is this unique to modern Ireland ?

Permabear

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Wolfe Tone

AlekSmart wrote: »

This is indeed true Bluewolf,however even this thread outlines the sense of awfulness that surounds the concept of students being "pressurized" to achieve stuff.

Is this unique to modern Ireland ?

Some pressure is good, too much is not.

Bannasidhe

Permabear wrote: »

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Absolutely -those on the bottom of the academic ladder shoulder most of the teaching/ correcting workload. Between researching/writing/delivering lectures; corrections ( drafts and final submissions); preparing exam papers/correcting scripts; attendance at exam boards; office hours; general admin; responding to student emails; departmental meetings and all the other tasks that keep us busy from Sept to July there is little time left to do our own research and prepare articles/books for publication - little time but huge pressure.

Permabear

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AlekSmart

Bannasidhe wrote: »

My own experience of working in third level is that I have encountered far too many students who seem to have no study ethic and I am increasingly convinced that the lack of financial imperative driving them towards obtaining high marks is partially to blame. This was brought home to me a few years ago when I had a class of 180 first years which included a group of 20 'visiting' students - mostly from the US. At least half the Irish students complained constantly about the work load ( 2 x 1,500 essays and a 1.5 hour exam), complained about the amount of reading, were late with assignments (if they did them at all) and were generally disinterested and unmotivated. The contrast with the visiting students was marked - they asked questions, entered into debates, emailed/called in during office hours and generally were determined to get their monies worth.
I have discussed this with colleagues and we all agreed - we love the sight of Americans and mature students and dread classes composed entirely of post-leaving certers.

Well said that Bannasidhe !!

I'd suggest your post be made a stickie

Over almost two decades of interaction with 3rd Level Students on a peripheral level I can confirm you and your colleagues experiences.

I believe this represents the "Educated" end of the somewhat unique all pervasive,"Sense of Entitlement" which so characterizes modern Ireland and it's people.

One possible major contributing factor to this has been a strong and long running policy of successive Irish administrations reassuring citizens that working hard to provide for one's family and future was somehow optional.

Even today,through mechanisms such as the Working Time Act,we see the contributing classes having an income-cap imposed upon them,whilst those "less-well-off" are provided with mechanisms to facilitate access or return to education on a no-risk basis.

Yet we KNOW,from experiences of the US,UK and greater Europe,that successful business and entreprenurial ethos is primarily driven by the sense of reward,greed if you will,that allows people to better themselves and strive for a better life by their own toil.

Irish central policy,on the other hand,has for almost four decades concentrated on downplaying this basic human stimulus and instead replacing it with the safety-net syndrome which strives to reassure us all that there's no need to worry or to get unduly stressed about having to achieve standards or God forbid,to have to compete with other's who'se hunger for success may be greater.

This contrast,I'd suggest,becomes very pronounced indeed when our student bodies are face to face in competitive and comparitive terms with their foreign peers.

It's so very depressing to witness,year upon year,the tide of your "post Leaving-certers" with all that it brings with it.

The entire Irish 3rd Level system now appears caught in a self-fulfilling downward spiral with both Students and Lecturers racing to the bottom.

Plowman

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Alopex

Permabear wrote: »

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I think its more complicated than that. In northern ireland its too easy to get into university. Intelligent but lazy students can cram at the last minute for school exams and still get good results. I suspects its not to different for the leaving cert

This culture continues to university. If you put more pressure on in college you'd just get mass drop outs.

Secondary schools need to be sorted out too.

Batsy

If the Irish don't have univeristy tuition fees then they are lucky.

The English wouldn't have university tuition fees, either, if it wasn't for Scottish politicians voting FOR the introduction of them in England in the British Parliament at Westminster even though most English MPs voted AGAINST having them introduced into England and Scottish MSPs in the Scottish Parliament voted AGAINST having them introduced in Scotland, an issue which English politicians weren't allowed to have a say on because it concerned only Scotland even though Scottish politicians were allowed to have a say on whether or not to introduce them into England even though that was an issue which concerned only England.

Undemocratic occurrences such as this (undemocratic to England, that is) need to be changed and they need to be changed by giving England its own parliament or, at the very least, ban Scottish, Welsh and NI MPs from voting on English-only issues.

XxMCRxBabyxX

AlekSmart wrote: »

Bannasidhe wrote: »

My own experience of working in third level is that I have encountered far too many students who seem to have no study ethic and I am increasingly convinced that the lack of financial imperative driving them towards obtaining high marks is partially to blame. This was brought home to me a few years ago when I had a class of 180 first years which included a group of 20 'visiting' students - mostly from the US. At least half the Irish students complained constantly about the work load ( 2 x 1,500 essays and a 1.5 hour exam), complained about the amount of reading, were late with assignments (if they did them at all) and were generally disinterested and unmotivated. The contrast with the visiting students was marked - they asked questions, entered into debates, emailed/called in during office hours and generally were determined to get their monies worth.
I have discussed this with colleagues and we all agreed - we love the sight of Americans and mature students and dread classes composed entirely of post-leaving certers.

Well said that Bannasidhe !!

I'd suggest your post be made a stickie

Over almost two decades of interaction with 3rd Level Students on a peripheral level I can confirm you and your colleagues experiences.

I believe this represents the "Educated" end of the somewhat unique all pervasive,"Sense of Entitlement" which so characterizes modern Ireland and it's people.

One possible major contributing factor to this has been a strong and long running policy of successive Irish administrations reassuring citizens that working hard to provide for one's family and future was somehow optional.

Even today,through mechanisms such as the Working Time Act,we see the contributing classes having an income-cap imposed upon them,whilst those "less-well-off" are provided with mechanisms to facilitate access or return to education on a no-risk basis.

Yet we KNOW,from experiences of the US,UK and greater Europe,that successful business and entreprenurial ethos is primarily driven by the sense of reward,greed if you will,that allows people to better themselves and strive for a better life by their own toil.

Irish central policy,on the other hand,has for almost four decades concentrated on downplaying this basic human stimulus and instead replacing it with the safety-net syndrome which strives to reassure us all that there's no need to worry or to get unduly stressed about having to achieve standards or God forbid,to have to compete with other's who'se hunger for success may be greater.

This contrast,I'd suggest,becomes very pronounced indeed when our student bodies are face to face in competitive and comparitive terms with their foreign peers.

It's so very depressing to witness,year upon year,the tide of your "post Leaving-certers" with all that it brings with it.

The entire Irish 3rd Level system now appears caught in a self-fulfilling downward spiral with both Students and Lecturers racing to the bottom.

While I'd agree with nearly all of this can I just point out that not all students (and people of Ireland in general) are suffering from the inflated "Sense of Entitlement". Yest I have seen that the vast majority unfortunately do suffer from it but there are the select few who have managed to keep themselves down to earth!

The rest though need to cop on that they are not "entitled" to anything. They need to work and earn it, not just expect for it to be handed to them.

Wolfe Tone

Permabear wrote: »

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Some people really struggle with exams, I remember back at the start of summer people were puking their guts up in the toilet prior to sitting their exams, and failing them is by no means the end of the world, I had failed two at Christmas due to a variety of personal reasons and a "lets get on with it" attitude (I should have deferred them).

If the course is marked by CA then it doesn't matter so much, but talented students, certainty not "chaff" can struggle with the pressure of an exam situation, even more so if there is extra pressure than there is currently.

Alopex

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Some people really struggle with exams, I remember back at the start of summer people were puking their guts up in the toilet prior to sitting their exams, and failing them is by no means the end of the world, I had failed two at Christmas due to a variety of personal reasons and a "lets get on with it" attitude (I should have deferred them).

If the course is marked by CA then it doesn't matter so much, but talented students, certainty not "chaff" can struggle with the pressure of an exam situation, even more so if there is extra pressure than there is currently.

If talented students struggle with exam pressure its nearly always down to them not studying enough throughout the year.

Wolfe Tone

Alopex wrote: »

If talented students struggle with exam pressure its nearly always down to them not studying enough throughout the year.

What makes you say that?

Alopex

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

What makes you say that?

Because they are given plenty of time to study throughout the year. Thing is they go out 3-4 times a week for most of the year so study time gets diminished.

Wolfe Tone

Alopex wrote: »

Because they are given plenty of time to study throughout the year. Thing is they go out 3-4 times a week for most of the year so study time gets diminished.

Thats rubbish, some people just don't cope well with exam situations due to the pressure, that doesn't mean they haven't studied or are bad students.

I wish I was one of those students that had the cash to go out 4 nights a week. In reality only a small minority of students do that.

AlekSmart

Alopex wrote: »

Because they are given plenty of time to study throughout the year. Thing is they go out 3-4 times a week for most of the year so study time gets diminished.

Sadly,Wolfe Tone,the reasoning behind Alopex's view is sadly all to correct in (I'd suggest) the majority of 1st to 3rd Year students....

I personally witness and partake in this process on a startingly regular basis only to equally unfailingly see it's inevitable consequences as the Courses progress and the lack of front-loading ones study programme kicks in.

There are many contributory factors to be sure,but the belief that University Life is meant to fulfill some social enjoyment function in compensation for the stress of having to study for a good Leaving Cert is quite widespread IMO.

In common with our National Administration,and perhaps even Physche,we appear lacking in the ability to do Long-Term stuff...planning,thinking,action....most of our resources are spent on what makes us Buzz TODAY

Tomorrow may never come.......:(

Alopex

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Thats rubbish, some people just don't cope well with exam situations due to the pressure, that doesn't mean they haven't studied or are bad students.

I wish I was one of those students that had the cash to go out 4 nights a week. In reality only a small minority of students do that.

in my uni a huge amount would go out 3 nights a week. the three local clubs are packed every tuesday/wed/thursay.

anyway I thought we were talking about overall pressure to study not exam pressure

IME its the ones who don't study enough get more nervous around exams. myself being one of them.

Permabear

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Kinski

Byron85 wrote: »

I'm looking at postgrads in England at the moment and my fees will be upwards of €7,000 or thereabouts. My sister refuses to even consider looking at postgrads in England as she "doesn't want to get into debt" and would prefer to stay in Ireland where it's free.

Postgraduate courses in Ireland are not free. If the student is in reciept of a maintenance grant then the fees are covered by their local authority. Irish citizens applying to postgraduate courses in the UK are entitled to apply for funding from the relevant local authority (non-UK residents can avail of fees-only funding, and will not recieve any form of living stipend).

Byron85

Kinski wrote: »

Postgraduate courses in Ireland are not free. If the student is in reciept of a maintenance grant then the fees are covered by their local authority. Irish citizens applying to postgraduate courses in the UK are entitled to apply for funding from the relevant local authority (non-UK residents can avail of fees-only funding, and will not recieve any form of living stipend).

Postgrads are paid for up to €6,000 as far as I remember so technically you can do a free Master's here. I know because i'm looking at postgrads here too. I want to go to England but failing that i'll stay here.

Kinski

Byron85 wrote: »

Postgrads are paid for up to €6,000 as far as I remember so technically you can do a free Master's here. I know because i'm looking at postgrads here too. I want to go to England but failing that i'll stay here.

Yes, if you are eligible for a grant. Something similar applies in the UK. Free fees for undergraduate degrees is a seperate issue from grants - stop conflating the two.

Byron85

Kinski wrote: »

Yes, if you are eligible for a grant. Something similar applies in the UK. Free fees for undergraduate degrees is a seperate issue from grants - stop conflating the two.

Ah yes. Sorry about the confusion, confusion on my part that is. You are of course correct. Still, how many people qualify for a grant? I've seen some figures for it somewhere.

Bannasidhe

AlekSmart wrote: »

Well said that Bannasidhe !!

I'd suggest your post be made a stickie

Over almost two decades of interaction with 3rd Level Students on a peripheral level I can confirm you and your colleagues experiences.

I believe this represents the "Educated" end of the somewhat unique all pervasive,"Sense of Entitlement" which so characterizes modern Ireland and it's people.

One possible major contributing factor to this has been a strong and long running policy of successive Irish administrations reassuring citizens that working hard to provide for one's family and future was somehow optional.

Even today,through mechanisms such as the Working Time Act,we see the contributing classes having an income-cap imposed upon them,whilst those "less-well-off" are provided with mechanisms to facilitate access or return to education on a no-risk basis.

Yet we KNOW,from experiences of the US,UK and greater Europe,that successful business and entreprenurial ethos is primarily driven by the sense of reward,greed if you will,that allows people to better themselves and strive for a better life by their own toil.

Irish central policy,on the other hand,has for almost four decades concentrated on downplaying this basic human stimulus and instead replacing it with the safety-net syndrome which strives to reassure us all that there's no need to worry or to get unduly stressed about having to achieve standards or God forbid,to have to compete with other's who'se hunger for success may be greater.

This contrast,I'd suggest,becomes very pronounced indeed when our student bodies are face to face in competitive and comparitive terms with their foreign peers.

It's so very depressing to witness,year upon year,the tide of your "post Leaving-certers" with all that it brings with it.

The entire Irish 3rd Level system now appears caught in a self-fulfilling downward spiral with both Students and Lecturers racing to the bottom.

Generally speaking - as there are always exceptions -the sense of entitlement I encountered was rampant among the off-spring of the 'well-off' - some actually seemed to believe they deserved a degree simply for turning up 40% of the time - while those from less financially secure backgrounds tended to not only put in the study but also worked part-time.

Too many spoilt tiger cubs, many the product of private education (and those blasted grind schools :mad::mad:) , seemed to view university as 3/4 years of party-time with the odd lecture thrown in and when they fail - threaten legal action with the full support of their doting parents. The less well-off are usually the first in their family to attend university and saw it as as their best chance to move into the 'professional' classes and so put in the work.

Alopex

Permabear wrote: »

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Actually that's very true. Also I reckon many of these last minute study students would get their act together fairly quickly if real pressure was applied. Even if that meant repeating.

What would you think is the main reason for keeping the low standards at universities? Its certainly not just an irish problem I am in a UK college its just the same.

Permabear

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djpbarry

bluewolf wrote: »

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Perhaps “winning” was a poor choice of phrase.

AlekSmart wrote: »

This is indeed true Bluewolf,however even this thread outlines the sense of awfulness that surounds the concept of students being "pressurized" to achieve stuff.

That’s not at all what I meant – pressure and achievement obviously go hand in hand. What I am saying is that I don’t like the idea of short-term financial incentives influencing exam performance.

Permabear wrote: »

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Can I ask what that opinion is based on?

djpbarry

Plowman wrote: »

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I’m not sure that’s the case. I seem to recall reading a report not too long ago in which it was stated that funding per student has been declining for some time.

Plowman wrote: »

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Does it? If someone goes out and gets a pass degree in international event management (yes, such a degree exists), how does that devalue a first-class honours degree in electronic engineering?

Plowman wrote: »

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I can’t really disagree with any of that.

Bannasidhe

Permabear wrote: »

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There is also the issue where people are increasingly accepted for post-grad with a 2.2.

Dannyboy83

I don't agree with the reintroduction of fees, I think there would be plenty of money to go round but for the greed and corruption of many of the people working in our universities.

However, if fees are reintroduced - first, they need to implement major reforms.
For example, I did Computer Science in UCC which was a 4 year course - of which 3 years could easily have been discarded from day 1, without negative effects on anyone.

The course changed after my graduation year anyway, but I was told they brought in a European language and basically turned it into a glorified call centre certificate.

Permabear

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djpbarry

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

How do these figures look when partitioned into different academic disciplines?

thebman

Alopex wrote: »

If talented students struggle with exam pressure its nearly always down to them not studying enough throughout the year.

Actually it is sometimes the exact opposite. Not doubting you are right and the majority are like that but some over study, don't give themselves enough down time between studying and end up over stressing themselves, building up the exam to be the everything.

It is a life skill some people haven't learned and our education system doesn't try to teach people skills to deal with stress when it is a major problem in education and the work place. If our education system thought people how to deal with stress, we'd probably see a reduction in a lot of other activities people use to try to remove stress such as drinking too much which is a common one, eating too much and the wrong types of food usually because high sugar foods give people a quick pick me up.

Permabear

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Alopex

thebman wrote: »

Actually it is sometimes the exact opposite. Not doubting you are right and the majority are like that but some over study, don't give themselves enough down time between studying and end up over stressing themselves, building up the exam to be the everything.

yeah a tiny minority of people would be like this.