Irelands Industrial History - Did we have one and where is it hiding ???

CDfm

I first thought of a thread like this some time ago.

Wrapped up in potato history as we often are on this forum we often forget that there was a life not dependant on the land.

For example , people drank beer, and before Guinness the country was dotted with breweries and breweries bought the ingredients for it.

Mapping the Lost Breweries of Ireland



Written by Barry Masterson Sunday, 27 July 2008 10:14


Following a post on the forums from a member of ICB asking about old breweries, it occurred to me that given my career path -- firstly as a land surveyor working in an archaeological research institution, to developing Geographic Information Systems for organisations such as Ordnance Survey Ireland and the Department of the Environment -- I have had maps and documents pass through my hands that provided a rich foundation for finding out more about where our native breweries were at a time when there were certainly far more than there are now, and when the surveyors recorded the finest detail about their surroundings: the early 19th Century. Armed with an online copy of A Topographical Dictionary of Ireland by Samuel Lewis from 1837, I set out to find all references he made to breweries in the places he describes, and to put them on a map for all to see.
Initial Sources

Lewis' Topographical Dictionary is a huge piece of work, boasting an extensive list of parishes, towns and villages, and providing varying levels of detail and facts about those places. Perhaps a dry read, but very entertaining at times, and always interesting, especially if you are familiar with the place about which he is writing. Although Lewis certainly wasn't going to mention every brewery operating at the time, I knew he would probably mention breweries where they were a significant part of a town's commerce, and that would be as good a start point as any.
The first pass of Lewis' Topographical Dictionary produced over seventy placenames where one or more breweries were mentioned. Lewis covered such a wide area, his descriptions varied considerably in depth. I think it was easy to tell places that he only visitied briefly, if at all, where he might say "there is a brewery", to slightly more detailed entries such as that for Ennis, County Clare:
At Clonroad is the extensive brewery of Messrs. Harley and Co., who are also about to re-establish a distillery formerly carried on at that place; and there is a smaller brewery in the town; the Ennis ale is in great repute.
or this entry for Ratass (Rathass?), County Kerry
Messrs. Newell and Grant's distillery and Mr. Bender's brewery are situated at Ballymullen, and together with a considerable portion of the parish, are within the limits of the borough of Tralee, under which head they are noticed. Several neat houses have been built in this suburb, and it is probable that in the course of a few years the buildings will be extended to the town, about a quarter of a mile distant.
Yes, a Mr. Bender owning a brewery in Ratass. You couldn't make this up!
Organising all of this information into a small database with the County, placename, an extract of Lewis' description and my own comments meant each place could be visited in turn to see if a brewery could be found marked on a map. But what maps?

The best maps for that period are without doubt the First Edition Six Inch maps from Ordnance Survey. Between 1829 and 1841 the Ordnance Survey worked from North to South mapping the whole island at a scale of 6 inches to 1 mile (1:10,560 in metric terms). Ireland was the first country in the world to be completely and comprehensively mapped at such a detailed scale. While this was largely for land valuation and taxation reasons, they provide a wonderful snapshot in time of Ireland before the famine, when the population was at its highest, and are a credit to the skills of the surveyors and cartographers of the time.
Once at the right town or parish, it's simply a matter of looking very closely, squinting frequently, to see if the surveyors marked the fact that a brewery was in the town or village mentioned. I'm happy to say that, such was the diligence of the land surveyors of the time, quite frequently a brewery was easily found, along with other building types like distilleries, mills, lunatic asylums, nunneries and tanneries, the latter two of which caused me much confusion at times, as they both look like the word brewery when the text is unclear, and you want it to be a brewery! For a small proportion of those marked breweries, Ordnance Survey had actually labelled the name of the brewery, not just with the generic “Brewery”. Hence “Ovoca Brewery” just north of Arklow, Co. Wicklow and “Cornwalls Brewery” in Bandon, Co. Cork amongst others.



http://www.beoir.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=106:mapping-the-lost-breweries-of-ireland&catid=26:general-articles&Itemid=94

Beer didn't get transported in buckets -you had coopers, bottle companies and so forth.

People lived in towns. Not everything was imported.

Canals and railways were built to transport things for sale.

Not everyone lived in tenements either , you had an urban society, shops,schools, banks, lawyers, boarding houses, post offices etc

You also had shipbuilding etc and had to have in an island nation.

Occasionally you get snippets.One of Jeremy Irons forebearers ran a linen mill in West Cork.

You also had sub-supply into the British forces stationed un Ireland and all kinds of stuff.

Politics too.

So whats the story ??

jonniebgood1

Great topic CD.
We are surrounded by the remnants of a previous time in relation to industry. By its nature it changes over time and new technologies render previously useful things redundant. The maps mentioned in your quoted piece are a great starting point to seeing what was going on. maps from the 1840s, 1900's and present can be overlayed and show up mills, kilns, quarries etc all over the place http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,591271,743300,2,9

It is well known that the north east has a rich industrial heritage but that does not mean that other places did not have industry. There are almost to many tangents to go off in on this subject- where do we start?

ejmaztec

I've always had the impression that the Industrial Revolution was deliberately kept away from Ireland, with the exception of token efforts in the big cities. It seems to me that Ireland was regarded as a bread-basket for mainland Britain. Of course I could be wrong, and it could also have been that Ireland didn't have the vast quantities of raw materials (eg coal) that they had across the water, so didn't benefit much.

The upside to me of this situation, is that Ireland is greener as a result of not been turned into a heavily industrialised powerhouse.

Delancey

CDfm wrote: »

I first thought of a thread like this some time ago.

Wrapped up in potato history as we often are on this forum we often forget that there was a life not dependant on the land.

For example , people drank beer, and before Guinness the country was dotted with breweries and breweries bought the ingredients for it.



Beer didn't get transported in buckets -you had coopers, bottle companies and so forth.

People lived in towns. Not everything was imported.

Canals and railways were built to transport things for sale.

Not everyone lived in tenements either , you had an urban society, shops,schools, banks, lawyers, boarding houses, post offices etc

You also had shipbuilding etc and had to have in an island nation.

Occasionally you get snippets.One of Jeremy Irons forebearers ran a linen mill in West Cork.

You also had sub-supply into the British forces stationed un Ireland and all kinds of stuff.

Politics too.

So whats the story ??

I think the story in 1 word was '' Scale '' , sure there was ship building and Iron Making but on nothing like the scale in Britain.
Chances are that Jeremy Irons ancestors linen mill in Cork was a fraction of the size of the monster mills in Belfast.
Similarly none of the ship building would have been even close to Harland and Wollf in size.

To my knowledge the biggest industrial employers were Brewing and Biscuit Making , what industry there was here was not of sufficient scale to have made the lasting impact that it would have been in, for example , the North of England.

owenc

nvm.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

I'd guess a lot of the industries were Protestant owner and run, and probably not regarded as part of the Dev comely maidens image of what it is to be Irish. Certainly, Dev made no secret of the fact of his hostility to urbanisation and industrialisation.

So where's the heritage? I suppose, as folk have said, the bulk of Irish industrialisation was around Belfast, and was therefore lost on independence. Why did it not catch on elsewhere? Hard to know. There have been seemingly innovative companies with potential, like Rigby rifles, one of which is on display in the Collins Barracks museum or Grubbs. A Scotsman called Dunlop allegedly invented the first pneumatic tyre in Dublin.

I'd expect there is a heritage of some kind in the Republic. But not one that would have been cherished in the formative years of the State.

CDfm

Dunlops had a factory in Cork AFAIK as did Ford Carmakers..

Post the 18th Century Famine in 1740/41 you had a boom which resulted in the building of Georgian Dublin btw.

Canal building and railroad building was also manual labour intensive and created infrastructure.

mikemac

Majority of heavy industry was in the North East

But we did have an industry which was hugely successful and the remains are still around today.
And that was slate quarrying

Quarrying is centuries old so nothing new.
But it greatly expanded during the Industrial age in Ireland.

In the decade before the famine up to eight hundred people were employed in Killoran slate quarries in North Tipp.
Even today, an employer that size would be considered very significant. Was the largest quarry employer in Ireland and only Wales had larger quarries in the whole of the UK

In an era before trade unions and workers rights, it was considered a good employer.
Working with slates is dangerous at the best of times, fall down this hill and you'd be cut to ribbons :eek:


So work was not done on wet days and employees were put on half-pay. Unusual I would think when most casual labour like dockers did not have this

There is an old railine in the area too, not for trains. Containers would be hauled up on pulleys and cables and sent back down in an controlled manner back down. Pretty cool to see a railline and rail bridges in the area

At it's peak it supplied slate to Nenagh Courthouse built in 1843 among other projects


In the early ninenties, there was a rooftop protest by a ex prisoner who was on the roof for two days flinging slates down onto the car park. Made national news

Ireland and Wales produce what's know as blue slate or Banger blue after Bangor Co. Down. This slate was used throughout Ireland or was sent down the Shannon to Limerick for export to Scotland where it was in demand. The Netherlands and Belgium also which had built up cities but no ready supply of slate.

If you travel Limerick to Dublin you'd know Birdhill, well before the motorway you did.
Birdhill is on the railline to Limerick so a spur was to be put in northwards. The Tipp side of the Shannon is quite hilly but a line was put north to Killaloe so on the Clare side in 1862

Pics:


But famine ruined the business after few had money to spend on slate and it never recovered from it's peak
It was revived in the 20s and saw great business in the next two decades as first the Economic war affected imports from Wales and the Emergency affected imports also.

A major storm caused a landslide in the fifties and production eventually petered out

It's open today for craft and restoration and commissioned projects

And we've found a new use in diving and a diving school

Dev comely maidens image of what it is to be Irish

Poor Dev must be one of the misquoted men around, he never said comely maidens. I don't know how that started

GCU Flexible Demeanour

mikemac wrote: »

Poor Dev must be one of the misquoted men around, he never said comely maidens. I don't know how that started

I'm not sure his meaning was misquoted. Judge for yourself

.... a land whose countryside would be bright with cosy homesteads, whose fields and villages would be joyous with the sounds of industry, with the romping of sturdy children, the contest of athletic youths and the laughter of happy maidens, whose firesides would be forums for the wisdom of serene old age.

As for his hostility to urbanisation, we've his thoughts on the value of the Ardnacrusha scheme from the Dail record in 1927

http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0021/D.0021.192710260041.html

We believe that the whole object of economics ought to be to try to give to the greatest number possible in this island a decent, comfortable living. In order to work towards that ideal, we will have to ask ourselves if we are going to get towards it by building up great industries or by the ruralisation of industries. As far as we are concerned, one of the things that we are glad of is that the development of electricity power will give an opportunity of bringing power to the people in the country, instead of bringing human beings up from the country and putting them in the slums of the large cities to starve.

We are glad that the electrical power of the country is being developed. We have differences as to how it should have been begun, and the manner in which it should have been carried out, but we are glad that an effort has been made to utilise the water power of the country and build up electrical power, so that we may be able to ruralise life and our industries generally.

In order to have the life that we wish our people to have we want primarily to provide for their requirements in food, clothing and shelter. How do we stand in this country for food? Everybody knows that, even if we had two or three times our population, our resources are such that no human being should starve. We believe that the primary object of agriculture in this country should be to supply to the individuals in the country the food that they need, and that before any exports or anything else should be considered that primary object ought to be looked after. Because we believe that we can be self-supporting. There is no doubt about that, as far as food is concerned. As far as clothing is concerned we could, if we set out to do it, make ourselves largely self-supporting.

We are importing at present articles that we should not import, and in the manufacture of which employment could be given to many people who are now out of work. If we set out to meet our own needs in food, in clothing and in housing, we could do so, with perhaps the exception of timber, in the case of housing. If we decided to build from the materials that we have, we could build the houses that are necessary to shelter our people. If we had food, clothing and shelter, and if, in addition to that, we developed the industry which is most suitable for us, so as to be able to get the necessary imports which it would buy for us in return—the raw materials that we require—I believe that you would not have a man, woman or child in this island willing to work without work to do.

I remember RTE broadcasting an archived interview with Todd Andrews a while back where he described Dev as a Maoist, and his comely maidens speech (tell me you don't know which one I mean) as 'pure Maoism'.

Yahew

Yes, he was a bit like Mao, or Pol Pot with regards to urban centres.

And, less sinisterly, Jefferson,who wanted the US to be a bucolic paradise of independent farmers and artisans. To be fair, closer to Jefferson who believed that farmers had property rights.

Tayto, I found out today, was the first company in the world to make flavoured crisps ( the first being Cheese n Onion). Until then crisps came with salt packets.

ejmaztec

CDfm wrote: »

Dunlops had a factory in Cork AFAIK as did Ford Carmakers..

Post the 18th Century Famine in 1740/41 you had a boom which resulted in the building of Georgian Dublin btw.

Canal building and railroad building was also manual labour intensive and created infrastructure.

Wasn't it the first Ford factory to open in Europe, and the first one in Europe to close down?:(

Delancey

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

I'd guess a lot of the industries were Protestant owner and run,

Excellent point and I would agree that would not have not have endeared them to the likes of FF.
A good example of the large protestant employer would have been the Goodbody factory in Clara Co. Offaly which employed hundreds at its peak in the manufacture of old fashioned Jute sacks - a major employer until someone invented the plastic sack .
The family are now better known for the stockbroking and legal firms they started but their initial wealth came from the Jute operation.

As an aside - some here may remember the violent death of a priest at the wedding of the daughter of a wealthy Clara family about 20 years ago - the death occured in what was formerly the Goodbody family home.

CDfm

ejmaztec wrote: »

Wasn't it the first Ford factory to open in Europe, and the first one in Europe to close down?:(

Henry had Cork connections and there also was something about an unclaimed estate of a coachbuilder named Egan who worked closely with him.

Jack Lynch had a Ford Granada as his official car as Taoiseach.

Delancey

Sometime in the 1970's Henry Ford III visited Cork as part of celebrations to mark the 50th or 60th or 70th anniversary of the plant there ( can't remember which ).
For all his nice words though it later emerged that he had already given the order to shut down the Cork factory which was beset by a lousy industrial relations atmosphere and abysmal levels of productivity when compared to bigger Ford plants in the UK and on the continent.

CDfm

Delancey wrote: »

Sometime in the 1970's Henry Ford III visited Cork as part of celebrations to mark the 50th or 60th or 70th anniversary of the plant there ( can't remember which ).
For all his nice words though it later emerged that he had already given the order to shut down the Cork factory which was beset by a lousy industrial relations atmosphere and abysmal levels of productivity when compared to bigger Ford plants in the UK and on the continent.

So I suppose industrial relations and the labour movement must feature in any history.

I seem to remember reading that William Martin Murphy investors had 20% less profit on investments in Southern Ireland than elsewhere in the UK and NI and at school we read about him as the businessman from hell. His talent was turning around loss making businesses.

EDIT

link

http://www.ucc.ie/chronicon/bielfra.htm

jonniebgood1

As seen on the historic maps lime kilns were widespread. They were a very small sign of industry. One of the largest sites was the Ballincollig royal gunpowder mills which presumably was part of the armed forces of Britain. It covered a massive area although the figure in this link is different than I have seen previously:

The ruins of over sixty buildings associated with gunpowder manufacture are still scattered throughout the 130 acres of the present complex making it the most extensive in the whole of Europe.

One of its most important features is the main canal which runs the length of the complex and which originally acted as a means of transport within the factory as well as providing the power to drive the waterwheels of the mills and a turbine which drove the sawmill.

The key process of gunpowder manufacture was the grinding together (incorporation) of saltpetre, sulphur and charcoal under millstones set on edge. This process was called milling which is why the whole factory came to be called Powder Mills. These mills were once the second biggest gunpowder works in the whole of Britain and Ireland. (Waltham Abbey in Essex being the largest, which went on to develop chemical synthesis based explosives). The Ballincollig gunpowder mills retains the integrity of its nineteenth century design.

There were eventually 24 grinding mills in all, each pair divided by a free standing blast wall to prevent a chain reaction should an explosion occur in one mill. A reconstructed mill with working machinery now stands in the former visitors' centre with eleven blast walls and four charge houses where the dampened mixed ingredients known as the green charge, were stored before incorporation.

Further processes of powder compression, powder size separation, drying, glazing, and packaging were carried out in separate buildings in the complex. http://www.ballincolligheritage.org/site_gunpowder_mills.html

It was a large employer in the cork area and an important part of the countries industrial heritage for over 100 years.

The Ballincollig Gunpowder Mills were established in 1794 by Charles Henry Leslie a leading Cork bank family. Eleven years later, when Napoleon's control of France posed a grave threat to Britain the British Board of Ordnance bought the mills from Leslie. As well as this the Army Barracks was built in town to protect the supply of gunpowder.



In 1837 the mills employed about 200 workers and produced about 16,000 barrels of gunpowder. By the mid 1880's the Royal Gunpowder Mills, Ballincollig was one of the largest Industrial establishments in the Cork area. About 500 men and boys were employed and a wide range of skills were in use in the mills - coopering, millwrighting, carpentry as well as other skills associated with gunpowder production. http://www.cork-guide.ie/attractions/gunpmill.htm

The buildings on the site were photographed by a user of this site and can be seen at http://www.abandonedireland.com/Ballincollig_Gunpowder_Mills.html

The 2 main reasons for the location of the mills was the location of the river Lee which was the main power source. Secondly one of the ingredients charcoal was sourced locally. The other components were imported from abroad.

goose2005

ejmaztec wrote: »

I've always had the impression that the Industrial Revolution was deliberately kept away from Ireland, with the exception of token efforts in the big cities. It seems to me that Ireland was regarded as a bread-basket for mainland Britain. Of course I could be wrong, and it could also have been that Ireland didn't have the vast quantities of raw materials (eg coal) that they had across the water, so didn't benefit much.

The upside to me of this situation, is that Ireland is greener as a result of not been turned into a heavily industrialised powerhouse.

"deliberately kept away from Ireland" doesn't make much sense, as this wasn't in the days when governments had industrial development policies. Ireland had no coal, little wood, no iron.

Also ignores the huge linen and other industries in Ulster.

CDfm

@goose2005 Protectionist policies by Britain meant Ireland could not grow trade with it for money create employment etc and buy its traded goods.

Just a few thoughts.

Flax growing was just one area.

What were the nature of the controls in term's of customs duties on Irish products and wasnt this what the United Irishmen protested against. They wanted businesses like their British middle class neighbours.

Were there also structural rules like did looms need licencing etc ?

How did the penal laws restict enterprise and access to trades and professions and who was affected..

jonniebgood1

CDfm wrote: »

@goose2005 Protectionist policies by Britain meant Ireland could not grow trade with it for money create employment etc and buy its traded goods.
.....
What were the nature of the controls in term's of customs duties on Irish products and wasnt this what the United Irishmen protested against. They wanted businesses like their British middle class neighbours.
.....

The act of union meant that Ireland should have been part of a free trade zone which should have had economic benefits as it gave a wide affluent market for Irish goods. Why this didnt happen may have been due to Ireland being in a bad position to start out. In 'A Death-Dealing Famine: The Great Hunger in Ireland by Christine Kinealy she states in relation to the act of Union that 'As a consequence, Ireland became absorbed into a free trade zone in which, having a less well-developed economy, she was inevitably at a disadvantage'. This came in over a period of time to allow adjustment.

It was long believed that the backwardness of the Irish economy in the first half of the nineteenth century was a result of the abolition of protective tariffs in the decades after the Union. By the terms of the Union, Ireland and Britain were to be a single free-trade area. However, it was agreed that some Irish industries needed time to adjust. Accordingly, it was arranged that there should be a 10% duty on some eighteen products entering Ireland until 1821. These included leather, glass, and furniture. Woollen and cotton goods got even more favourable terms. In 1820, these duties were reviewed and the Government first suggested that the 10% rate should remain until 1825, then be phased out, and finally abolished in 1840. However, the free traders in the Government had all duties abolished in 1824. Unprotected Irish industries then faced large-scale English competition. http://multitext.ucc.ie/d/Economic_Depression

So rather than free trade helping Irish industry it would seem that the already widely developed industrial strength of Britain was to strong. This together with the fast developing transport network meant that a starter industry in Ireland was not able to compete in most cases with an established English counterpart. Raw materials were also significant in this era.

Ireland had little coal and no iron. Consequently, in the age of steam, it was handicapped from the start in any competition with the rest of the United Kingdom. Raw materials could be imported but this raised costs. Ports close to Britain enjoyed more favourable conditions.

cue

One of the areas we studied in archaeology was the lead mines in Glendalough. They supplied all the lead for the roofs that were built in the industrial age in Dublin, so it was booming at one stage. A lot of the miners were specially brought over from Cornwall as they were more more experienced in working with the material than the native wicklow miners. They had cottages built for them which would have been fashioned in the same style as English victorian cottages. You can still see the footprints of some of them along the road which takes you to the mines. The mines themselves are abandoned now and they look amazing as all the old buildings are still there at the far end of Glendalough valley. Well worth a trip to.

slowburner

cue wrote: »

One of the areas we studied in archaeology was the lead mines in Glendalough. They supplied all the lead for the roofs that were built in the industrial age in Dublin, so it was booming at one stage. A lot of the miners were specially brought over from Cornwall as they were more more experienced in working with the material than the native wicklow miners. They had cottages built for them which would have been fashioned in the same style as English victorian cottages. You can still see the footprints of some of them along the road which takes you to the mines. The mines themselves are abandoned now and they look amazing as all the old buildings are still there at the far end of Glendalough valley. Well worth a trip to.

Those Cornish boys weren't confined to Glendalough. They were heavily involved in stone masonry in Aughrim too. And the Avoca mines were very much dependent on the skills of Cornish miners throughout the 19th C , indeed you can see their influence today all over the area in a herringbone style of dry stone wall. I have only heard the term for these walls spoke - don't have a clue how to spell it but I suspect it is Welsh - sounds like 'clouth'.
Roe stoneworks near Carrickmines are direct descendents of Cornish workers who (from recollection) were brought over to increase output from the Wicklow gold rush.
Interestingly, Parys Mountain in Anglesey exploited a similar geology to Avoca. I think the two are exploiting the same lode, if that's the right term. I spent a day with two dry stone wallers from there touring around Avoca, looking at walls - as you do. They said that they could easily be in Anglesey based on the type of mine workings here and the dry stone wall styles.
Here's one of the Avoca mines in Google maps
http://maps.google.com/?ll=52.884411,-6.208305&spn=0.010151,0.024526&t=h&z=16&vpsrc=6

and Parys mountain in Wales
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Parys+Mountain,+United+Kingdom&hl=en&ll=53.386477,-4.347968&spn=0.020067,0.049052&sll=53.389676,-4.343376&sspn=0.160522,0.392418&vpsrc=6&t=h&z=15

slowburner

There's an interesting link here on the movements of Irish and Cornish miners

CDfm

Very much like subsistance mining.

I was in Aughrim and met an old miner who told me that he had moved to Yorkshire where the coal seams were 8 and 10 feet high and he didnt understand what the English miners were complaining about cos in Ireland the seams were poor quality coal and they mined 1 or 2 feet and moved it by hand.

It was uneconomical to ship low grade coal in for the power stations and presumably steam train engines aswell.

I wonder what fuels were used before, wood & turf.

How much of Ireland was covered in timber and over what period was it cut down?

Presumably, pre the industrial revoloution there was little by way of traded goods. Are there any trade figures or statistics on what was traded , import and export wise.

It is stuck in my mind that a reason behind the United Irishmen protestant /middle class support was economic and that they also wanted to be factory owners etc like their UK counterparts. Take Lord Edward Fitzgerald , a younger son of the Duke of Leinster might have wanted to make money from trade and may have been a capitalist like was happening in Britain.

So a question is were there economic motives behind the rebellions ?

ejmaztec

I think that the situation would have only been slightly better, had Ireland been an independent state at the time. It would have wanted a piece of the action, but would have ended up being charged over the odds for any raw materials being imported from the UK.

They just seemed to be scratching around with nothing at all happening on a large scale outside the North-East, which was hugely advantaged by its close proximity to Scotland and it's vast coal resources.

On Valentia Island off Kerry, some of the output from the slate quarries tiled the roof of the Houses of Parliament. I can't think of any other contributions that took place here in Kerry.

Corsendonk

Well the major industry in North Co Dublin was hosiary so much so that Balbriggan in the Oxford Dictionary is "a knitted cotton fabric, used for stockings and underwear".

http://www.balbriggan.net/smyco.htm

The hosiery and linen businesses were the central industries in the Balbriggan area for about two hundred and fifty years. Both saw the best and worst of times and this story outlines the industry and its link to the prosperity of the region.
Any industry, which not only outlived the commercial restrictions of the 18th and 19th.centuries, but also waxed strong while others declined, must surely be of special interest.
Where relentless laws and heavy taxation, where high tariffs and the imposition of every embargo which the most cunning mind could evolve failed for over 250 years, still defeat had to be conceded when the marketing policy which had sustained these industries was not geared to match the wholesome onslaught from the Orient.
At the turn of this present century the town of Balbriggan was renowned throughout the world for its quality textile products. A writer in 1909 declared that if ever Shackleton covered the last few miles still remaining to reach the South Pole it was more than likely he will find the inhabitants of that far distant land wearing “Real Balbriggan” hosiery.
What was to become the prosperity maker for Balbriggan had its roots on the northern fringes of Balrothery. In the 18th century, Balrothery, then the main population centre, overshadowed the then small hamlet of Balbriggan.
Balrothery, referred to as the ‘town of the knights’, had been an area of some religious significance for many centuries and had several small manufacturing industries. Their main outputs were basic furniture, tanned products, beer and biscuits. From the wheels of the local grain mills came the basic ingredient to produce the biscuits which were well known to seafarers in that they were the most suitable and long keeping of ship’s biscuits.
Significantly these mills were situated on the northern side of Balrothery, in order to make use of the several streams which drained the hills and marsh ground to the south of Balrothery.

The Early Years.
The hosiery business is recorded as having been carried out in the Balrothery area prior to 1740. It is stated as having been very successful although it is clear that the ‘industry’ was really only a cottage industry which served the needs of the local, prosperous, inhabitants and also the traded with Dublin, 20 miles distant.
In 1740, Mr. John Mathews established the trade on a solid basis, and for over 25 years he employed a large number of workers knitting fine silk stockings. These stockings were expensive to produce and not very hard wearing. This business lapsed in the early 1760’s and was resumed shortly afterwards by Mr. Fullam.
Mr. Fullam, who displayed much originality in the improvements he introduced in developing his products, was responsible for the introduction to the market of a new concept in stockings known as “Economies”. “Economies” were made from two materials, silk and cotton; the ankle portion of the foot and the top portion of the stocking were made from cotton and the remaining area, which might be on display, from silk. This development had two main advantages, a considerable cost reduction and the wider market availability to a less costly product. Increased demand was the direct result.
Mr. Hatton acquired the business in 1775 and although only a short time in command he had a considerable and beneficial influence on the affairs of the business. The family of Hatton left a further impact on the area; two place-names, Hatton’s Hill and Hatton’s Farm were in general use until recent times. The late Paddy Murphy, who did extensive research into the history of industry in Fingal, rated the contribution of the Hatton family very highly.


1780 was to see Mr. Hatton joined by his cousin, Joseph Smyth, when the firm of Smyth and Co. was established and traded for almost exactly 200 years. That year also saw the business move to Balbriggan proper.
For many years after the formation of the company the hosiery manufacture went on apace; adding regularly to its improvements and most importantly, keeping in touch with developments in technology and machine design. The progress made by Messrs Smyth and Co. actually blotted out the smaller manufacturers while their workers were taken over by the new firm. Smyth and Co. gradually and steadily gained in reputation and popular favour through the excellence, quality and style of their goods until the name of Balbriggan was known all over the globe and the products from Balbriggan looms their way to every market from China to Peru.
During this period of expansion for Messrs Smyth and Co., entrepreneurs, especially in England, were looking to Irish low cost labour and high skill to improve their profit margins. Thomas Ogle from Preston in England was one such man. He had the foresight and pioneering attitude, which drives the thirst for greater return on investment, and he saw Balbriggan as a potential area with a suitable skill base. It is recorded that on 5th.August, 1806 that Thomas Ogle made an agreement with William Suttell, a flax dresser from Leeds, to proceed to Balbriggan, Ireland to take charge and manage the flax mill shortly to be built there. That flax mill did eventually come into being, although far later than intended, and the Gallen family purchased the establishment in 1883. The Gallen family still runs the business although not producing to the extent of former years

1867 was to see the building of a fine, handsome factory premises for Smyth & Co.; convenient to the Great Northern Railway Station at Balbriggan into which was put the most up-to-date machinery. This splendid factory was burned to the ground in a horrendous fire in the year 1882. It was instantly rebuilt, but on a larger scale and refitted with all the latest machinery available in Europe. This machinery was to herald a new era in stocking manufacture as it enabled Smyth & Co. to manufacture Cashmere and Lisle thread goods which had not hitherto been made in Balbriggan, the trade having been chiefly confined to Silk and Cotton.
That fire presented other opportunities also, skilled labour not fully utilised during the rebuilding programme attracted the attention of the English firm of Deeds, Templar and Co. The added bonus of having premium prices for products made at Balbriggan, by now a generic name, must have been almost a licence to print money. Using the area just to the east of the Railway, at Sea banks, Deeds, Templar and Co. traded as the Balbriggan Sea Banks Hosiery Company from 1884 to its destruction in 1920 at the hands of the Black and Tans.

The 1901 and 1911 census does show quite a few embroiders in Skerries and Rush.

To accommodate further the increasing trade Smyth and Co. engaged full-time instructresses to go round the villages of the north county – Rush, Skerries, Lusk, Swords, Naul etc, teaching young girls to embroider stockings, and by this means a very lucrative cottage industry was formed which gave off-site work to almost three hundred people.

Drawing of Smyth Factory

CDfm

ejmaztec wrote: »

I think that the situation would have only been slightly better, had Ireland been an independent state at the time. It would have wanted a piece of the action, but would have ended up being charged over the odds for any raw materials being imported from the UK.

They just seemed to be scratching around with nothing at all happening on a large scale outside the North-East, which was hugely advantaged by its close proximity to Scotland and it's vast coal resources.
.

So it was farming and the potato or emigration then.

Anyone have any comparisons of Irish and British wages ?

HellsAngel

There is a lot of bull about the UK and Ireland and make no bones about it. When the act of union was forced through in 1801 we were poor but one of the most populous countries in Europe and was industrialising at the same rate as other like economies on the continent. By the time 26 of our counties left the UK we were among the least populous of European countries and our economy was essentially a peasant one. Owing to our involvement with the United Kingdom, we are the only country in Europe not to have experienced an industrial revolution. Indeed, we went backwards from a proto-industrial economy to an essential subsistence agrarian economy over the period of our involvement with the UK.

We are possibly the only country in Europe to have experienced a population drop over the 19th century. The average European country grew by a multiple of 2.5, we fell in population by a third 1801-1914 (halving in population since 1845). Our population haemorrhage over the course of our involvement with the United Kingdom is incomparable to anywhere else at any time outside of times of great war and or extreme famine.

Our current trifle (an properly bubble and consequential fiscal crisis) is nothing comparable to previous diastsers under British rule. We will recover from this comparable inconvenience within a few years and hopefully corrupt, cronyist Fianna Fail Gombeen economics will be thrown to the dust bin.

slowburner

CDfm wrote: »

Very much like subsistance mining.

I was in Aughrim and met an old miner who told me that he had moved to Yorkshire where the coal seams were 8 and 10 feet high and he didnt understand what the English miners were complaining about cos in Ireland the seams were poor quality coal and they mined 1 or 2 feet and moved it by hand.

It was uneconomical to ship low grade coal in for the power stations and presumably steam train engines aswell.

I wonder what fuels were used before, wood & turf.

How much of Ireland was covered in timber and over what period was it cut down?

Presumably, pre the industrial revoloution there was little by way of traded goods. Are there any trade figures or statistics on what was traded , import and export wise.

It is stuck in my mind that a reason behind the United Irishmen protestant /middle class support was economic and that they also wanted to be factory owners etc like their UK counterparts. Take Lord Edward Fitzgerald , a younger son of the Duke of Leinster might have wanted to make money from trade and may have been a capitalist like was happening in Britain.

So a question is were there economic motives behind the rebellions ?

Worth a thread in itself CD

patsman07

Im currentlly compiling information on a Spade Mill which my ancestors owned. It was in North Louth on the Flurry river. A man called Don Johnson has written in the Louth Archeological and Historical Journal about the various mills on that river. Its not a particularly large river but its amazing how many mills were using its water in the 19th century. There were paper, saw, spade, corn and 4 bleach bills on a stretch about 4 miles long. Mill races still criss cross the landscape from that era. Its incredible how enterprising people were back then. Reading about the mills really upset my misconception that every Catholic in 19th century Ireland was a small time potato farmer and every protestant a landlord.

CDfm

i have found the same btw

jonniebgood1

CDfm wrote: »

........ , people drank beer, and before Guinness the country was dotted with breweries and breweries bought the ingredients for it.
........
Beer didn't get transported in buckets -you had coopers, bottle companies and so forth.
........

Dotted with 247 breweries in 1837 apparantly!

It was a huge industry and it grew over the years. Spirits were also widely produced with high quality product becoming synonymous with Ireland, which has continued to the present day. The following links are from Irish tourism: image, culture, and identity By Michael Cronin, Barbara O'Connor, pg. 86,87.




So did the big breweries buy out the smaller ones or price them out of business? This industry was able to export to keep growing. The breweries survived by doing this so it was necessary but it mirrors in many ways what the strong British industries did. That they were able to do this shows that it was possible and goes in the face of accusations against Britain that she restrained Ireland for her own benefit. So why did breweries succeed where other industry failed?

MarchDub

Just to get some scale here on breweries in the eighteenth century. They were very small concerns - and not what we would nowadays consider to be large or even medium factories. Some were run by a single brewer. Louis Cullen in his Economic History of Ireland since 1660 describes it this way:

Most of the industrial firms were on a small scale in countryside and in town. Not only were the breweries and distilleries small, but many of them were simply artisan firms making a limited quantity with simple equipment for a small clientele. It required a large number of such breweries or distilleries to serve the market.

Large breweries, glass works and flour mills in the English port towns had low costs of transport in shipping to Ireland. Competition from them created difficulties for Irish firms. By the 1770s the breweries and glass-houses in Irish ports were in difficulties.

Cullen goes on to describe the development of larger breweries as the only way to survive economically so that:

There was not a single retail brewer left in Dublin in 1790, a sole one in Cork, and only a few in Kilkenny, Limerick and Waterford.

Fratton Fred

The decline in the number of breweries mirrors that in England. In mid 19th century Marlow there were dozens of breweries, there is now just one. The smaller ones were put out of business by Wethereds brewery who had better, more modern equipment and techniques.

Wethereds was subsequently bought by Whitbreads and closed down. The current brewery, the Rebellion Beer Co. Was set up as a protest against the practices of the big corporates.

An interesting one I have never gotten to the bottom of, is Bulmers. Were the British and Irish Bulmers ever connected?

A bit of trivia about the Hereford one for you. The founder of Bulmers in England had perfected a fermentation technique that resulted in more batches turning into cider rather than vinegar. To perfect this, he persuaded his cousin, a recent graduate from Cambridge, to join him in his business and create the first mass produced cider.

The cousin accepted his offer and thus turned down a position he had been offered to tutor the children of the King of Siam.

His replacemment, a young woman promptly won the heart of the king and was the basis for the film The King and I.

Edit: just to agree with MD's point, most if not all of the 18th/19th century Marlow breweries would have been pubs brewing their own beer.

ejmaztec

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The decline in the number of breweries mirrors that in England. In mid 19th century Marlow there were dozens of breweries, there is now just one. The smaller ones were put out of business by Wethereds brewery who had better, more modern equipment and techniques.

Wethereds was subsequently bought by Whitbreads and closed down. The current brewery, the Rebellion Beer Co. Was set up as a protest against the practices of the big corporates.

An interesting one I have never gotten to the bottom of, is Bulmers. Were the British and Irish Bulmers ever connected?

A bit of trivia about the Hereford one for you. The founder of Bulmers in England had perfected a fermentation technique that resulted in more batches turning into cider rather than vinegar. To perfect this, he persuaded his cousin, a recent graduate from Cambridge, to join him in his business and create the first mass produced cider.

The cousin accepted his offer and thus turned down a position he had been offered to tutor the children of the King of Siam.

His replacemment, a young woman promptly won the heart of the king and was the basis for the film The King and I.

I knew that they were the same at one stage, but things got complicated by corporate goings-on over the years.

Commercial cider production was started in Clonmel, South Tipperary in 1935, by local man William Magner.[1] Magner bought the orchard from a Mr Phelan from Clonmel. Magner quickly established a successful cider factory in Dowds Lane, Clonemel. In 1937 English cider-makers H. P. Bulmer purchased a 50% share in the business, using their expertise to greatly increase production. After the war in 1946, Bulmers purchased the remaining 50%, changing the name to Bulmers Ltd Clonmel. H.P. Bulmer maintained international rights to the Bulmers trade mark, so that any exports were carried out via the parent company rather than directly exported from Ireland.
In the 1960s H. P. Bulmer produced a "Champagne perry" product in direct competition with Babycham, owned by Showerings Ltd of Shepton Mallet. Showerings challenged this in court, and H.P. Bulmer lost the case. In 1964 they were forced to sell Bulmers Clonmel to Guinness and Allied Breweries, parent company of Showerings. The company name was changed to Showerings (Ireland) Ltd.
Soon after, the company moved its main processing operations to a new complex at Annerville, five kilometres east of Clonmel, which was opened in 1965 by the then Taoiseach, Seán Lemass. Today the Bulmers/Magners arm of C&C Group plc employs more than 470 people and is a substantial part of the economic infrastructure of Clonmel. Magners is not the same as Bulmers; it is owned by C&C, one of Ireland's biggest drinks companies.
The company also once produced Cidona, a popular soft drink in Ireland which along with all of the company's other soft drinks was sold to Britvic in 2007.
The Magners brand

The success of Bulmers cider in Ireland led to the development of the Magners brand to market the company's cider outside of Ireland. Since H. P. Bulmer retained the right to market their original English Bulmers worldwide, the C&C Group needed a new name under which to market their international product. The concept was originally developed by Stuart Wootten, who argued that the international growth of Irish pubs provided a natural market for a drink such as Irish cider.
Irish Bulmers cider and Magners have the same label and are identical products, except for the name. The ciders are made from 17 varieties of apples, fermented and matured for up to two years. It is available in 330 ml, pint, litre and 750 ml bottles and 500 ml cans, and is served over ice. It is also available in most Irish bars on draught and Magners is available in some bars on draught in Scotland. Initially only available in Spain, Northern Ireland and Scotland, the brand saw its popularity increase significantly in recent years and is now available across the United Kingdom, Europe, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Thailand and the United States.
In early 2007, Magners Light, which is a low calorie version of the cider, was released. In March 2009, a new perry (marketed as "Pear Cider") called Magners Pear was launched and in February 2010, Magners Berry was launched. The Berry variety is a blend of 17 varieties of apple, similar to Bulmers Original, fused with blackcurrants, raspberries and strawberries with an ABV of 4.5%. It is available in pint and "long neck" bottle in the licensed trade, and 500ml cans in grocery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magners

Fratton Fred

I never thought of looking on wikipedia.

MarchDub

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I never thought of looking on wikipedia.

Who does?

ejmaztec

I find this one more interesting these days.

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/England

Judgement Day

Link here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65855538&postcount=25 to another small brewery in the South East whose products are brewed in the USA and France and not available here.

http://gofree.indigo.ie/~ghlettco/labels.html

McLoughlin

Wexford Town had 2 large brewerys back in the 1800s Harpurs was the name of one where the pub Heffernans is currently located and the other was located in what is now Lowneys mall.

jonniebgood1

In relation to the possibility of further developing Irish industry Robert Kane published 'Industrial resources of Ireland' in 1844. The book is optimistic of the possibility of wider industrialisation but of course was followed immediately by the famine.

In this book Kane pointed out

".. the absence of successful enterprise is owing to the fact that we do not know how to succeed; we do not want activity, we are not deficient in mental power, but we want special industrial knowledge."

Kane's comments are only just being acted upon in the 70's and 80's, with a greater emphasis on specialised training in science and technology in Irish higher education. Then as now, much education did not equip people for the world of work and Kane made these remarks 146 years ago:

"Should an ambitious parent desire to give his son a good education, although he is to be in trade, he puts him through College. He devotes the best years of his youth to reading Grecian poetry, and Latin plays, to learning by rote the dialectics of the middle ages and principles of abstract metaphysics, and awakens, after the solemnity of getting his degree, to find that he is to obtain his living by principles and pursuits to which his education has had no reference whatsoever."

In many ways these remarks are still true. They should not be taken to mean that Robert Kane despised culture or learning. When he died he was busy on a translation of Ivanhoe into Spanish, hardly the activity of a narrow philistine. From his upbringing in the household of a chemical manufacturer to his later interest in the natural resources of Ireland, Robert Kane had always seen the importance of technical education in supporting trade and industry, no doubt supported by his German experiences. The education system in England and Ireland was and is slow to see the importance of technical education, and to consider the engineer or technologist as important as an artist. It may be that we are at last learning the lessons that Robert Kane tried to teach over a hundred years ago. http://www.ul.ie/~childsp/elements/Issue1/childs.html

The full text of his book is here http://books.google.ie/books?id=p2MNAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=industrial+resources+of+ireland+kane&hl=en&ei=mnpsTsOmLM__-gb4zr21BA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false and can be downloaded.
He presents in great detail a convincing argument that Ireland had many elements required for greater industrialisation but it would seem that by 1844 it was clear that Ireland was lagging behind in most areas. He has points in relation to the economics argument regarding fuel vs. labour.

Dr. Kane proves that the cost of fuel, even if greater in lreland, by no means precludes us from competing with England; he does so by showing that the cost of fuel in English factories is only from 1 to 1 1/2 per cent., while in Ireland it would be only 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 per cent., a difference greatly overbalanced by our cheaper labour—labour being over 33 per cent. of the whole expense of a factory. http://www.ucc.ie/celt/online/E800002-014/text001.html

In water-power we are still better off. Dr. Kane calculates the rain which falls on Ireland in a year at over 100 billion cubic yards; and of this he supposes two-thirds to pass off in evaporation, leaving one-third, equal to nearly a million and a half of horse-power, to reach the sea. His calculations of the water-power of the Shannon and other rivers are most interesting. The elements, of course, are the observed fall of rain by the gauge in the district, and the area of the catchment (or drainage) basins of each river and its tributaries. The chief objection to water-power is its irregularity. To remedy this he proposes to do what has increased the water-power on the Bann five-fold, and has made the wealth of Greenock—namely, to make mill-lakes by damming up valleys, and thus controlling and equalising the supply of water, and letting none go waste. His calculations of the relative merits of undershot, overshot, breast, and turbine wheels are most valuable, especially of the last, which is a late and successful French contrivance, acting by pressure. He proposes to use the turbine in coast mills, the tide being the motive-power; and, strange as it sounds, the experiments seem to decide in favour of this plan.

Dr. Kane proves that we have at Arigna an inexhaustible supply of the richest iron ore, with coals to smelt it, lime to flux it, and infusible sand-stone and fire-clay to make furnaces of on the spot. Yet not a pig or bar is made there now. He also gives in great detail the extent, analysis, costs of working, and every other leading fact as to the copper mines of Wicklow, Knockmahon, and Allihies; the lead, gold, and sulphur mines of Wicklow; the silver mines of Ballylichey, and details of the building materials and marbles.

In relation to reliance on Britain, Kane suggested that Irish industry could exist without Britain.

Bishop Berkeley put, as a query, could the Irish live and prosper if a brazen wall surrounded their island? The question has been often and vaguely replied to.

Dr. Kane1 has at length answered it, and proved the affirmative. Confining himself strictly to the land of our island (for he does not enter on the subjects of fisheries and foreign commerce), he has proved that we possess physical elements for every important art. Not that he sat down to prove this. Taste, duty, industry, and genius prompted and enabled him gradually to acquire a knowledge of the physical products and powers of Ireland, and his mastery of chemical and mechanical science enabled him to see how these could be used.

jonniebgood1

Comparing the industrial revolution in Ireland with that in England, Scotland and Wales may be an unfair comparison. These were the first places in the world to have an industrial revolution and Irish development is usually looked at in their context. A fairer comparison may be with european industrialisation and that happened at a slower pace in some places than others. The facts and figures are compared on a regional basis on the Leiden university page. It also looks at another consequence of the industrial revolution that is very relevent to Ireland, how it added to migration

Between 1750 and 1815, only 7% of the European population lived in cities. Life in the villages changed, however. Agricultural production became more intensive and large scale (to produce raw materials for the rural industry) and as a result, the number of farmers without land grew. Towns with rural industry grew and provided much work. In other towns, trade and industry grew. World trade and politics became more influential in the every-day life of the villagers. The group of proletarians grew quickly due to downwards social mobility and the fact that proletarians had more children than farmers.

In the 19th century, population continued to grow. In many countries, population doubled. Increasing scaling also continued and thus, the number of proletarians likewise continued to grow. The landless farmers did not have the security they had previously when working for a land owning farmer. Modern farmers did not hire help for a whole year anymore, but only for the harvest season. Because they now only produced one or two crops, the harvest season was very short as well. The economy needed teams of harvesters that went from town to town. Many people moved around in Western and also in Eastern Europe after the abolition of serfdom in 1861. By 1850, the countryside had become very overcrowded, partially because of the rural industry that was located there. Malthus developed a theory on the population growth. Too much population growth would lead to disaster and misery.

Between 1815 and 1914, an industrial revolution took place. The industries in the cities eventually won the competition with the rural industries. Because of the industrial revolution that took place, urbanisation started in the 19th century. Cities still needed many new people every now and again because of bad sanitary conditions and diseases. The cities however did not need a constant refill of people anymore. In 1800, there were only 23 cities with over 100.000 citizens. By 1900, there were 135 cities with over 100.000 citizens. Not everybody lived in the city permanently. There were several types of cities: cities with textile industry, cities with heavy industry and administrative/commercial cities. Industrial revolution also effected transportation. In the 19th century bicycles, steamships and trains made it easier for people to move further away. http://www.let.leidenuniv.nl/history/migration/chapter3.html

* 1815-1914: The English went especially to Normandy (France).
* 17th - 19th century: Irish went to England, especially to Liverpool and London.
* 18th - 19th century: Labourers moved from the countryside towards new centres of industry: Black Country surrounding Birmingham,
* 18th - 19th century: Irish to Liverpool and Manchester,
* 19th century - 1914: Chinese people from India and Africans went to England. The Chinese went especially to Liverpool, London and Cardiff.
Germany
* 1750 - 1815: German engineers, merchants, officers, bankers, etc. went to South America
* 18th - 19th century: Germans moved inside Germany towards the new industry areas in the Rhine-Ruhr-area. Other Germans went to the industry-areas in England.
* 19th century: Many Germans came to Belgium.
France
* 18th - 19th century: French labourers went to North and Eastern France, Wallon, the Ruhr-area and Bretons went to Paris.
Netherlands
Belgium
* 1815-1914: The Belgians went especially to North France.

paul71

CDfm wrote: »

It was uneconomical to ship low grade coal in for the power stations and presumably steam train engines aswell.

I know I am picking out a small part of the text to quote so forgive me for that, but coal mining in Ireland is something that has held my interest since a day many years ago when I claimed in a leaving cert geography class that Ireland had several coal mines, and was rebuked for the claim. The three main ones were in Kilkenny, Roscommon, and Tyrone.

The Castlecomer coalmine in Kilkenny was mined for about 150 years, produced 11 million tonnes and one of the seems, (The Three Footer) produced the highest quality coal in Europe, it was far superior to the best English, Welsh or Polish coal. The area also produced Iron and many period houses in the southeast still have firegrates made from Castlecomer Iron.

jonniebgood1

paul71 wrote: »

I know I am picking out a small part of the text to quote so forgive me for that, but coal mining in Ireland is something that has held my interest since a day many years ago when I claimed in a leaving cert geography class that Ireland had several coal mines, and was rebuked for the claim. The three main ones were in Kilkenny, Roscommon, and Tyrone.

The Castlecomer coalmine in Kilkenny was mined for about 150 years, produced 11 million tonnes and one of the seems, (The Three Footer) produced the highest quality coal in Europe, it was far superior to the best English, Welsh or Polish coal. The area also produced Iron and many period houses in the southeast still have firegrates made from Castlecomer Iron.

Great stuff Paul. Anthricate coal was the type in Castlecome and was well known. The mine was in use a very long time, going back before any industrial revolution. The following extract about the mine was written by its last managing director R.C.Prior-Wandesforde (I presume a descendent of the well known family of that name http://www.landedestates.ie/LandedEstates/jsp/estate-show.jsp?id=2061)

About 1640 when mining of the old Three Foot seam started, iron was also produced. This was in the form of heavy spherical lumps of iron pyrites which are sometimes found associated with coal- particularly in the Jarrow seam. These iron balls were then smelted and the iron extracted and there are still some old gates and railings around Castlecomer which were made from Castlecomer iron.

To return to the old Three Foot seam- in or about 1640 efforts were made to mine this seam. The method employed was what is known as Bell Pits. It is well to remember that no explosives existed at this time- so that to get at the coal, the overlying rock had to be broken by wedges, hammers and so on.

First of all, two shafts were sunk from 25 to 50 yards apart. Then the first mining operation was to connect these two shafts by an underground passage or “level”. This was essential in order to give ventilation to subsequent mining. Once this main level had been driven miners then began to extract the coal on each side. Of course, they could not take out all the coal- otherwise the rock above them or the roof would have collapsed on them- and so, at intervals, they left in round or rectangular pillars of coal for support. Sometimes there is evidence of miners having re-entered a working bell-pit mine in order to take out some of these pillars- “robbing the pillars” it was known as- a very dangerous proceeding, but these “old miners” were most skilled and wonderful men. Only recently during some “open-cast” workings, these old workings have been laid bare and the remaining pillars could be seen. The “runner” of an old sleigh was also found during this open-casting. These sleighs were used by the “old men” to pull the extracted coal along their very low passages or “levels”.

A Geological feature connected with the Skehana seam is what is known as a “Wash-out”. This means that at some time in the distant past when the coal still consisted of vegetable matter, a lake or ancient river flowed in, cutting out the material which would have become coal and deposited sand which became sandstone.

This is often found in coal fields and such “washouts” may be quiet small or very large- the latter being the case in the Skehana seam

This 'washout' it seems had a detrimental effect on the progress of the mine making it more difficult to extract coal of value, thus making the operation uneconomical.

The coal was sorted, cleaned and sized on the surface at an installation known as “The Screens”. There were also up-to-date miners baths, for along time the only proper miners baths in Ireland. In 1917 a branch railway line was brought from Kilkenny but after the second World War this was discontinued as lorry transport had become a more economic proposition.

Up to about 1952 conditions in the pit were satisfactory but at about this time the “Wash-out” (see above) was met and in addition , the character of the seam changed so that it became more and more difficult to extract.

Finally, in 1969 the mine was completely uneconomic- the loss per week being some £2000. For some time, the Government had subsidised the business and every effort was made and expert overseas opinion sought but all to no avail and so the pit was forced to close.

http://www.sip.ie/sip019B/history/history.htm

CDfm

My dad said to me when, as a kid, we were visiting rural Wexford not to play in a particular area as it was over abandoned lead mines .

paul71

During the nineteenth century Waterford Glass achieved a world-wide reputation with exports going to the four corners of the earth. Many of the ships carrying this glass to foreign ports were in fact built here in Waterford. The ship building trade that has been practised in the port for over a thousand years has entered a new phase.
By the mid-nineteenth century Waterford had four ship building yards and was second only to Belfast in terms of tonnage produced. The first iron steam ship ever to sail into a Russian port was built in Waterford and appropriately it carried with it a gift of Waterford Glass presented to the Tsar when the ship sailed into St. Petersburg.

I had heard before of the shipbuilding industry in Waterford and I think there is a link to the Quaker community in Ireland, apparently there over 1500 emplyed in the shipyards in the 19th century, the above is a quote to the only link I have found so far.

http://www.waterfordireland.ie/visitor-services/history

I am assuming that the thread relates only to industry in the south, as it is well know to us all that Belfast is internationally recognised as one of the leading cities of the entire industrial revolution.

I am trying to dig up something on the Furniture and Carpet industry that was centered in Navan, the stories that I have heard say that it developed as a result of plentiful oak due to the deforestation of Ireland in the 17th & 18th centuries and was given a boost by providing furniture to Harland and Wolve in Belfast in the 19th and 20th century, will post a link if I can find it.

MarchDub

goose2005 wrote: »

"deliberately kept away from Ireland" doesn't make much sense, as this wasn't in the days when governments had industrial development policies. Ireland had no coal, little wood, no iron.

Also ignores the huge linen and other industries in Ulster.

Actually this is not the case - that is, if you meant by that statement that government wasn't traditionally involved in the economy. Almost from the start of parliaments in the thirteenth century – English and Irish respectively- government has been involved in the economy. The gathering of tax was accompanied frequently with some of that money going back into development. The first Irish parliament held in 1297 oversaw the issue of taxation and levies for the purpose of infrastructure and defensive walls – and Magna Carta Hiberniae is full of directions for economic structure and commerce, including directions for the felling of many forests. Ireland was originally covered in forest - the last of the great forests in Ireland were felled during the Tudor period, for shipbuilding.

During the reign of Edward II there are records to show that so much revenue money left Ireland – to finance Edward’s Scottish wars – that there was not enough money for grants to build roads or repair structures.

There was a housing boom in Ireland in the fifteenth century which was practically completely overseen by government – an Act was passed by the Irish parliament in 1429 describing the grants available for the building of Tower Houses and carefully outlying the size etc that the grant would cover [20ft by 16ft x 40 ft high] . This was before the passing of Poynings’ Law which curtailed the power of the Irish Parliament and made it subject to Westminster in 1494.

Harold G Leask is a good source for information on government and early housing in Ireland – Irish Castles and Castellated Houses is excellent on the subject.

Trade itself was subject to government – the passing of the Wool Acts, the Beef Acts from the 1660s curtailing Irish trade in these are testimony to government involvement in Irish trade and development. The Linen Board was set up by government in 1711 – unlike wool, linen posed no major threat to English trade and so was actually encouraged to develop.

The list is long with government involvement in the economy and of interested parties getting bills that favoured one trade or another – the huge debacle over ‘Wood’s Halfpence’ in the Dublin parliament is another example. In July 1722 the Westminster Parliament gave the Englishman William Wood the patent to coin copper halfpence and farthings for Ireland. This proved to be a bridge too far for the Irish and a major row erupted in the Irish Commons. It was such a lucrative patent that a letter was sent directly to the King from the Irish parliament stating that

‘it would be destructive of the trade and commerce of this nation’

and expressed the hope

‘that you will be greatly pleased to give such directions as you in your great wisdom shall think proper to prevent the fatal effects of uttering any farthings or halfpence pursuant to the said patent’.

The patent was cancelled in August 1725.

MarchDub

I have looked up some of what was going on in the British House of Commons during the period of Grattan’s Parliament in the late 1700s and here is a statement by Charles James Fox – a well known Whig and British radical. During a row between the Irish and British parliaments over a Money Bill sent to Dublin he addressed the power that the British parliament had over Irish money and commercial issues.

Fox in his speech is initially referring to the American revolutionaries and the stated issues they had with the uneven trade laws that favoured Britain at the expense of the American Colonies -and hence they went into armed rebellion in 1776.

Ireland had the same reason to spurn at this power of external legislation because it had been hitherto employed for the purpose only of oppressing and distressing her. Had Ireland never been made to feel this power as a curse, she never would have complained of it and the best and most effectual way to have kept it alive, would have been, not to have made use of it; Ireland would then have suffered this harmless power to exist in the statute book, she would never have called out for a renunciation of it. But, fatally, for this country, this power of external legislation had been employed against Ireland as an instrument of oppression, to establish an impolitic monopoly in trade, to enrich one country at the expense of the other.

British House of Commons May 1782

I have the transcript of the speech so I typed this out myself.

slowburner

Here's another snippet of Ireland's forgotten industrial history.
(Apologies for not posting a quote but I don't think I have the right to copy the text)


http://www.historyireland.com/volumes/volume14/issue1/features/?id=314

CDfm

In 1844 Robert Kane published a book, the Industrial Resourses of Ireland and it is very readable and available for free on Google


http://books.google.com/books/about/The_industrial_resources_of_Ireland.html?id=p2MNAAAAYAAJ

A bit about him

Robert John Kane 1809 - 1890

Peter Childs

Introduction

Robert John Kane died just over 100 years ago and although his name is largely unknown today, he was in his time well-known as a chemist. In 1844 Kane published a book, "The Industrial Resources of Ireland" which made a scientific and an economic case for the utilisation of Ireland's natural resources. Robert Kane's name is remembered in Ireland mainly for this book, though he was also an able university administrator and an important public figure in the last century. (A series of meetings on The Natural Resources of Ireland were held in Dublin in 1944 to mark the centenary of Kane's influential book.) In addition he also had an international reputation as a chemist in the early 1800's.
Early studies

Robert Kane's father was originally called John Kean and was one of the people involved in planning the 1798 rebellion. Its failure meant that John Kean had to flee to France where he studied chemistry in Paris. When things were quieter, he returned to Dublin in 1804 and began to make chemicals, including saltcake (sodium sulphate), sulphuric acid and bleaching powder. The Kane Company (he had changed his name) became an important manufacturer of sulphuric acid, and were important in establishing the use of the Gay-Lussac towers in Ireland and England. Robert John Kane was John Kane's second son and he was born in Dublin on September 24th. 1809. He was brought up at 48, Henry Street, Dublin near his father's factory and thus developed an early interest in chemistry.
Very little is known about his early schooling , though some of it may have been in Germany as he was proficient in German. As a school boy in Dublin he attended lectures in chemistry and other sciences at the Royal Dublin Society. These talks stimulated him to carry out chemical researches at his father's factory and his first chemical paper, "Observations on the existence of chlorine in the native peroxide of manganese", was published in 1828 and sorted out a disputed point in the manufacture of chlorine. His first papers were published as a teenager! He had enrolled at Trinity College in 1826 and he was awarded the Gold Medal of the Science Society in 1829 for his achievement in publishing a paper while still an undergraduate. He elected to study medicine at Trinity College, but his real interests were in chemistry and published a second paper in 1829 on a manganese arsenide mineral which came to be known as "Kaneite". He also did research on the compounds of ammonia and chlorine with copper, mercury and zinc.
In 1830 he studied pharmacy in Paris and on his return in 1831 he wrote a 350 page book on "Elements of Practical Pharmacy" . No doubt it was this that resulted in him being offered a professorship of chemistry at the Apothecaries' Hall in Dublin, who were involved on the training of pharmacists. This appointment won Kane the title of "The Boy Professor". Also in 1831 he was elected to the Royal Irish Academy and he founded the Dublin Journal of Medical and Chemical Science, which later became the Irish Journal of Medical Science. These are impressive achievements indeed for someone who was still only 22. Not surprisingly these other interests delayed his undergraduate studies and he did not graduate from Trinity until 1835. In 1834 he had been awarded a licentiateship of the Apothecaries' Hall, which entitled him to practice in medicine (though he never used it).
Further discoveries

In 1832 he was elected to the Royal Irish Academy and in June read a paper to the Academy (later published in the Dublin Journal of Medical and Chemical Sciences) "On the iodide of platinum and its saline compounds". In an earlier paper in the same journal ("Remarks on the properties of the hydracids") he had sorted out some of the ideas about the nature of acids, and demonstrated the electropositive nature of hydrogen.
Robert Kane was the first to propose the existence of the ethyl radical, which he published on January 1st. 1833 in the Dublin Journal of Medical and Chemical Sciences. Kane's idea was "a subject of amusement and ridicule among the chemical circles" of Dublin. However, a year later the great German chemist Justus Liebig proposed similar ideas and with his authority the idea was accepted, although Kane eventually received the credit for it. Certainly no-one could describe Kane as a narrow-minded chemist, as he worked in the areas of inorganic, organic, physical, biological and applied chemistry with equal facility.
While at the Apothecaries' Hall Robert Kane had given public lectures in science. In 1834 he resigned his position to become lecturer (and later professor) of Natural Philosophy (as natural science was then known) at the Royal Dublin Society. Edmund Davy, cousin of Humphry Davy, who discovered acetylene (ethyne) was professor of Chemistry at the R.D.S. at that time. Kane's duties involved giving public lectures in science, mainly in physics. He also did research on the products of wood distillation and invented the calcium chloride process for separating methanol from wood spirit. This may have sparked his interest in natural resources. Realising his inadequacy in organic analysis he went in the summer of 1836 to Germany to work in Liebig's laboratory in Giessen. There he continued to work on chemicals from wood spirit and showed that propanone (acetone or as Kane called it, mesitic alcohol) produced a hydrocarbon when treated with sulphuric acid, that Kane called mesitylene. This reaction involved conversion of a chain compound into a ring compound and was later used to establish the symmetry of the benzene ring.
Kane was also working on the compounds of ammonia with various metals. Berzelius referred to this work in his annual reports on chemistry for 1837, where he wrote that he considered Kane's researches in this field to be among the most important work recorded that year. This shows how quickly Kane had won an international reputation for his chemical research. In 1844 the Royal Irish Academy awarded Kane its Cunningham Gold Medal for this work. The work showed the careful and detailed experimental skills that Robert Kane had developed from his first researches in his father's factory.
Publications

In 1840 Kane became the editor of the Philosophical Magazine, the influential science journal published in London. In the same year he published a paper in the journal "On the chemical history of archil and litmus", two indicators obtained from lichens. The use of vegetable dyes as acid-base indicators was introduced by Robert Boyle, but no-one understood much about them. For this work the Royal Society of London awarded him its Royal Medal, and in in 1849 he was elected a Fellow of the Royal Society.
1841 saw the publication of the first two parts of his Elements of Chemistry, with the third part following in 1843. The book comprised 1204 pages and was illustrated by 236 woodcuts. It achieved great success on both sides of the Atlantic. Michael Faraday used it in his courses at Woolwich and John W. Draper introduced a "pirate" edition into the U.S.A. in 1843, referring to it "as a textbook, undoubtedly the best extant in the English language".
Amongst all this frenetic scientific activity Robert Kane found time to court and marry Katherine Baily, whose father was a distiller in Dublin. She was a botanist and at the age of 22 published anonymously the Irish Flora. One day a printer sent Kane a bundle of her proofs by mistake instead of his own, and when he returned them in person he met his future wife for the first time.
Robert Kane was now at the peak of his scientific career. He was well-known as a lecturer, as an author and as a chemical researcher in the British Isles, Europe and America. He had been giving a series of lectures at the Royal Dublin Society on the industrial resources of Ireland and in 1844 he published an expanded version under the title Industrial Resources of Ireland. This book contained a mass of factual detail on energy, mineral, agricultural, capital and labour resources and it brought Kane to the attention of the politicians. When Sir Robert Peel set up the Museum of Economic Geology in Dublin in 1845, he appointed Kane as Director of the Museum. Shortly thereafter he appointed Kane as President of Queen's College, Cork one of the three constituent colleges of the Queen's University (the others were in Galway and Belfast).
1845 saw the start of the Irish Potato Famine and Kane was heavily involved as one of the eight Irish Relief Commissioners, as a member of the Board of Health set up to deal with an outbreak of typhus, and as a member of the Playfair Blight Commission set up to look into the causes of the blight. Sean O'Donnell commented that this Commission "must surely rank as one of the most monumentally ineffective and misdirected that this country has ever seen." (It would appear that Kane was the token Catholic member of these bodies, and one critic of the Health Board remarked that Kane could be safely "absolved of all blame through uniform non-attendance at meetings.") As well as having no time for directing the affairs of the Museum or Queen's College, Cork it also meant that he ceased doing any fundamental research. He became a distinguished public figure, but his scientific career lay behind him, although he remained editor of Philosophical Magazine until his death. A few months later in 1846 Peel made him Sir Robert Kane in recognition of his services.
Until he retired in 1873 Sir Robert Kane was involved in the development of scientific and technical education in Ireland. He was President of Queen's College, Cork until he retired but after three years of enthusiasm, his interest seems to have waned and in 1853 an official enquiry was set up into his prolonged absences from the college. (His family were living in Dublin and he also seems to have spent most of his time there.) Following the enquiry Kane agreed to live in Cork, at least during term-time and after that there were no more problems.
The Museum of Economic Geology became the Museum of Irish Industry under Kane's leadership,started providing lectures in science and in 1867 it became the Royal College of Science for Ireland. The Department of Science and Art intended to pass over Kane as Head of this new institution, believing it should be given to "some layman of administrative capacity, and of sufficient distinction to carry weight, but unbiased by any special scientific predilections..". However, their views were over-ruled and Kane was appointed first Dean of the College.


http://www.ul.ie/~childsp/elements/Issue1/childs.html

jonniebgood1

CDfm wrote: »

In 1844 Robert Kane published a book, the Industrial Resourses of Ireland and it is very readable and available for free on Google


http://books.google.com/books/about/The_industrial_resources_of_Ireland.html?id=p2MNAAAAYAAJ

A bit about him

Ah CD- keep up :eek: A memory like mine!!!
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74333108&postcount=40

jonniebgood1

slowburner wrote: »

Here's another snippet of Ireland's forgotten industrial history.
(Apologies for not posting a quote but I don't think I have the right to copy the text)


http://www.historyireland.com/volumes/volume14/issue1/features/?id=314

The heading of first world war boom in relation to explosives industry is good!
The Boer war also helped the previously mentioned Ballincollig gunpowder industry.
Kynoch ltd. company also purchased paper mills in Clondalkin and Drimnagh to ensure they had full control over labelling their product (Colin Rynne. Industrial Ireland. pg 295).