A "no timetable" service for DB

Aard

After looking through the Network Direct changes a few weeks ago, I jotted down all of the bus routes that will have an off-peak frequency of 15 minutes or better. Things may have changed a bit since, but it's likely still practically the same. There may have been a few I've missed out depending on how to consider an XXa/b type of service.

4
7
13
15
16
25a/b
27
29
39a
40
46a
79
128
145

Imo these would count as "super-routes" as people like to say. They imply an average wait of less than 8 minutes throughout the day, which to me is a "no timetable" service. The Luas and the Dart's success can largely be attributed to a reliable service -- I don't know of anybody who needs to consult a timetable outside of very early morning or very late evening. I'm not sure if DB have had this kind of high-frequency routing before (46a...), but either way this list of routes should almost have a route-diagram of their own. They cover a large part of the city, and if properly advertised could really boost ridership as a little network unto themselves.

In Los Angeles not too long ago, the city pulished a map of bus routes with 15 minute frequencies or more only. Here it is (light rail / subway included btw): http://www.metro.net/riding_metro/maps/images/15_min_map.gif

Anecdotally, I know of a lot of people (myself included) who have a bus service within a 3 minute walk but who would rather walk up to 15 minutes to take the Luas because it's reliable and frequent.

Anyway, I guess I just wanted to post the list of super-routes if others were interested.

Victor

The issue is expanding the AVLS / RTPI, such that services can avoid bunching and that people can see that they aren't bunching.

Cool Mo D

There's also the 9, 83, 140 which are every 15 minutes during the day.

Colm R

What are the chances that the do some sort of renumbering of routes. If you consider these routes to be sort of 'super routes' could they implement some sort of numbering system that makes it easier to follow.

Say double digit for super routes and triple digits for local or feeder routers.

munchkin_utd

Aard wrote: »

.....

Imo these would count as "super-routes" as people like to say. They imply an average wait of less than 8 minutes throughout the day, which to me is a "no timetable" service. The Luas and the Dart's success can largely be attributed to a reliable service -- I don't know of anybody who needs to consult a timetable outside of very early morning or very late evening.

Berlin rebranded such "super routes" as Metro busses and overnight boosted the ridership by simply identifying these routes as priority high frequency routes.

Munich did the same 2 or 3 years ago impressed by the success of the Berlin branding as part of a COMPLETE reworking and re numbering of ALL bus routes.
I dont think any bus kept its old number and very few busses their complete original route path, and all this done overnight rather than straggled out like in Dublins network direct changes.
In a city the size of Dublin theres dozens of regular city busses but only about a dozen Metro Routes - these Super Routes being 2 digit numbers (like the trams incidentally), every other local bus route/ non priority/ non frequent route a 3 digit number.

The reliability and frequency means that now the Metro Bus is lumped in with the trams on the network maps.
http://www.mvg-mobil.de/netzplaene/images/Tram-Metrobusnetz-2011.pdf

When I first heard of Network direct it looked as if they were going down this path.
Unfortunately the one big missing link, the renumbering and rebranding of superroutes hasnt happened and doesnt look like its ever going to happen.

Colm R

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Berlin rebranded such "super routes" as Metro busses and overnight boosted the ridership by simply identifying these routes as priority high frequency routes.

Munich did the same 2 or 3 years ago impressed by the success of the Berlin branding as part of a COMPLETE reworking and re numbering of ALL bus routes.
I dont think any bus kept its old number and very few busses their complete original route path, and all this done overnight rather than straggled out like in Dublins network direct changes.
In a city the size of Dublin theres dozens of regular city busses but only about a dozen Metro Routes - these Super Routes being 2 digit numbers (like the trams incidentally), every other local bus route/ non priority/ non frequent route a 3 digit number.

The reliability and frequency means that now the Metro Bus is lumped in with the trams on the network maps.
http://www.mvg-mobil.de/netzplaene/images/Tram-Metrobusnetz-2011.pdf

When I first heard of Network direct it looked as if they were going down this path.
Unfortunately the one big missing link, the renumbering and rebranding of superroutes hasnt happened and doesnt look like its ever going to happen.

Interesting. In Munich and Berlin, do these buses stop at all bus stops on the way out of the center?

thomasj

Aard wrote: »

After looking through the Network Direct changes a few weeks ago, I jotted down all of the bus routes that will have an off-peak frequency of 15 minutes or better. Things may have changed a bit since, but it's likely still practically the same. There may have been a few I've missed out depending on how to consider an XXa/b type of service.

4
7
13
15
16
25a/b
27
29
39a
40
46a
79
128
145

Imo these would count as "super-routes" as people like to say. They imply an average wait of less than 8 minutes throughout the day, which to me is a "no timetable" service. The Luas and the Dart's success can largely be attributed to a reliable service -- I don't know of anybody who needs to consult a timetable outside of very early morning or very late evening. I'm not sure if DB have had this kind of high-frequency routing before (46a...), but either way this list of routes should almost have a route-diagram of their own. They cover a large part of the city, and if properly advertised could really boost ridership as a little network unto themselves.

In Los Angeles not too long ago, the city pulished a map of bus routes with 15 minute frequencies or more only. Here it is (light rail / subway included btw): http://www.metro.net/riding_metro/maps/images/15_min_map.gif

Anecdotally, I know of a lot of people (myself included) who have a bus service within a 3 minute walk but who would rather walk up to 15 minutes to take the Luas because it's reliable and frequent.

Anyway, I guess I just wanted to post the list of super-routes if others were interested.

The 128 will be the 15!

is that the 13 superroutes? It doesnt look right for some reason.

KD345

thomasj wrote: »

The 128 will be the 15!

is that the 13 superroutes? It doesnt look right for some reason.

Under the original plans, the 140 was to run to Kiltipper, but this has now changed to Palmerston Park. The 54A is remaining as it currently is.

I suppose you could count the 140 as a high frequency route.

munchkin_utd

Colm R wrote: »

Interesting. In Munich and Berlin, do these buses stop at all bus stops on the way out of the center?

Munich and Berlin buses do a different job, and Dublin different again.

Berlin buses compliment the rail links and provide crosstown connections that would require changes. So kindof like Dublin.

Munich buses mainly avoid the centre as its nearly as congested as Dublin. The buses there mainly link suburban residental areas to shopping/ work areas but to get to town you will nearly always need to change onto a tram or underground or suburban train.
The metro bus concept in Munich was to provide a backbone linking one main centre to the next, rather than taking tours of estates. But all stops are served on route, but through more direct routings theres consequently less stops and because the route gains in importance theres now more and more traffic light priority for these busses.

Of course any solution for Dublin cannot be copied 1:1 from abroad but the idea of completely separating by branding/ identity a frequent direct high quality service which attracts passengers to walk/ cycle further to catch it.

But without proper branding the existing good regular reliable services aka "super routes" wont have the drawing factor that the Luas or Dart has.

Aard

thomasj wrote: »

The 128 will be the 15!

is that the 13 superroutes? It doesnt look right for some reason.

As I said, I made this list a few weeks ago, just into a Notepad document. Maybe more than a month at this stage. No doubt I missed a few as it entailed going through all current bus routes (over 100 of them) and the many new pages of Network Direct. I'm sure I missed a few. I'd hope that others, like yourself, would post up any omissions.

AngryLips

Maybe once Network Direct is delivered this will follow?

It wouldn't require a major rebrand. Busses can be branded yellow and pink instead of yellow and blue (like the Travel 90 tickets). Of course, using a standard numbering convention like two digits for super-routes and three for all others would make more sense as it wouldn't place any restrictions on fleet utilisation.

I wouldn't be surprised if there is a plan there further down the line. Dublin Bus are light years ahead of the other CIE Group companies when it comes to service level.

KD345

AngryLips wrote: »

Maybe once Network Direct is delivered this will follow?

It wouldn't require a major rebrand. Busses can be branded yellow and pink instead of yellow and blue (like the Travel 90 tickets). Of course, using a standard numbering convention like two digits for super-routes and three for all others would make more sense as it wouldn't place any restrictions on fleet utilisation.

We've already seen this happen in the 90s with rebranding buses (Cityswift/Imp), but it doesn't work practically. Buses get used on different routes and it creates confusion and dilutes the brand.

munchkin_utd

KD345 wrote: »

We've already seen this happen in the 90s with rebranding buses (Cityswift/Imp), but it doesn't work practically. Buses get used on different routes and it creates confusion and dilutes the brand.

Branding the vehicle is one thing

Branding the service is another.

All berlin busses are yellow, but some are metro buses and some standard city buses. Same vehicle on both routes (abeit larger capacity etc)

All Munich busses are blue, even ones ran by private operators. Same as Berlin the high frequency metro bus corridors have larger capacity vehicles and get the newest busses first, but to all intents and purposes theres no branding difference except the small board in the front bottom corner to tell you if its a metro or city bus
(see here for an example : http://www.flickr.com/photos/woodpeckar/2803831692/ )

The whole metro bus idea reduces getting around the city from dozens of routes to every obscure destination and estate to a mere dozen of the most important routes that are easily mapped and remembered, which in itsself draws more passengers and makes the frequency improvements/ late and early running even more viable.

Dyr

The 13/a has been running at a bus every 15 minutes for some time, the network redirect chancers have been touting this as some sort of improvement under their regime, when in fact it will remain at the same frequency and just have a longer journey time.

They're also very coy about what peak/off peak actually translates to on a clock :rolleyes:

KD345

Bambi wrote: »

it will remain at the same frequency and just have a longer journey time.

Surely the journey time is shorter and more direct between Ballymun and the city, as it's no longer lopping around Coultry and Sillogue.

Dyr

For a person from coultry, shangan, sillogue or further afield is their journey time shorter now that they have to walk an extra ten minutes just to get to a bus stop? Nope.

Now that the bus is going to be heading off out to clondalkin I can see wait times increasing if anything.

mikemac

Numbering system in Dublin seems to be a mess.
Maybe it developed organically over the decades

Why not have something like Belfast

Routes are numbered one to twelve and the routes off these get letters A,B and so on
Map route
If One goes north you know any of these buses go in that direction
In Dublin it could be the 16 or the 27 or something else

Any plans to do this?

You are guaranteed letters in the papers about people fondly remembering the old bus routes but that's just nostalgia

Simple is better
Galway has something like this

KD345

Bambi wrote: »

For a person from coultry, shangan, sillogue or further afield is their journey time shorter now that they have to walk an extra ten minutes just to get to a bus stop? Nope.

Any time I've used the 13/13A it picked up little or no passengers doing the loop in either Coultry or Shangan. I'm not sure where you mean by further afield? The rest of the passengers will benefit from the more direct routing.

Bambi wrote: »

Now that the bus is going to be heading off out to clondalkin I can see wait times increasing if anything.

Or maybe the timetable will work fine.

Why would the 13 be any different to the 16/46A/123 etc.

Dyr

KD345 wrote: »

Any time I've used the 13/13A it picked up little or no passengers doing the loop in either Coultry or Shangan.

With good reason, that battle was lost when the 36/A went out of service. Most people will walk to the main road stop rather than wait risk waiting 30 minutes for a bus that might not show.


Time will tell, I'm inconvenienced straight away by the routing to dame street but I'm willing to wait and see how it goes. The potential is there for DB to make a balls of it as usual though

AngryLips

How did a discussion about a timetable-less, high-frequency DB service on certain routes become a debate about a minor detour on one particular bus route through some neighbourhood most of us haven't even heard of?

Aard

It seems that somebody has taken it upon themselves to make a map like the one I mentioned in the OP. It's not perfect (seems like a first draft from the comments), notable some typos and missing Luas stations, but hopefully these shortcomings will be rectified.

And now if only Transport for Ireland / the NTA would get the finger out and produce one of their own...

http://dt106ers.com/blog/2011/12/dublin-rapid-transit-map-feedback-please/

bk

Nice map.

Create and promote these super routes, in conjunction with a flat fare (significantly cheaper with Leap card then cash) and put buses with three doors (actually used) on these super routes.

Do all that and I honestly believe DB would see a massive increase in usage.

Give people a service that is fast, simple to use and simple to understand and they will flock to it.

monument

Nice map and all but that's an abuse of the term rapid.

Sulmac

Nice map, makes it a lot easier to understand where the main routes go. Though the route numbers need to be radically changed, as many have already said.

They should email the map to Dublin Bus and the NTA - it'd be interesting to see how (if) they respond!

xper

mikemac wrote: »

Numbering system in Dublin seems to be a mess.
Maybe it developed organically over the decades

Yeah, 'developed organically' is the phrase management uses when they mean 'we didn't think ahead'.

I know that at least some of the single digit bus routes are simply replacements for the old tram lines. I've no idea how most of the double digit route numbers and their suffixed derivatives were allocated. Seems completely random. My favourite never-the-twain-shall meet is the 17 and 17A.

Mention has been made of the vehicle/route rebranding in the early 90's which very quickly fell apart. I agree with the observation that having seperate vehicle liveries for different classes of service is difficult to manage and also works against the promotion of an integrated system.

It might also be noted that that project, the last big route overhaul prior to to Network Direct, also saw something similar to that being suggested above, namely the introduction of three-digit route numbers for short local, suburban routes. So, for example, route 145 began life as a mini-bus serviced route between Bray DART Station and Kilmacanogue, its number based on route 45 which at that time was the main city centre - Bray route. Unfortunately, DB didn't stick to the convention and three digit numbers began being used willy-nilly. And so, several years later when they introduced what was effectively a new high frequency route with double deckers from Kilmac via Bray to the city centre (and now Heuston Stn), they billed it, somewhat ridiculously, as an extension of route 145. So now we have what is one of their trunk routes numbered in a manner that used to idicate a local route but which is now meaningless.

So, it would be great if they overhauled the route numbers on the whole network again ... as long as they stick to it this time.

coolperson05

Aard wrote: »

It seems that somebody has taken it upon themselves to make a map like the one I mentioned in the OP. It's not perfect (seems like a first draft from the comments), notable some typos and missing Luas stations, but hopefully these shortcomings will be rectified.

And now if only Transport for Ireland / the NTA would get the finger out and produce one of their own...

http://dt106ers.com/blog/2011/12/dublin-rapid-transit-map-feedback-please/

Love this map!! Please someone in the NTA print it and integrate it. The numbers are a total mess. Start from 1 with these high frequency routes and renumber the others. Even some different colouring on 'rapid' buses would be good.

And am I the only one that hate that the 46A to Dun Laoghaire has that 'A'...why not just 46?!

coolperson05

Aard wrote: »

It seems that somebody has taken it upon themselves to make a map like the one I mentioned in the OP. It's not perfect (seems like a first draft from the comments), notable some typos and missing Luas stations, but hopefully these shortcomings will be rectified.

And now if only Transport for Ireland / the NTA would get the finger out and produce one of their own...

http://dt106ers.com/blog/2011/12/dublin-rapid-transit-map-feedback-please/

Love this map!! Please someone in the NTA print it and integrate it. The numbers are a total mess. Start from 1 with these high frequency routes and renumber the others. Even some different colouring on 'rapid' buses would be good.

And am I the only one that hates that the 46A to Dun Laoghaire has that 'A'...why not just 46?!

LaFlammeRouge

Aard wrote: »

It seems that somebody has taken it upon themselves to make a map like the one I mentioned in the OP. It's not perfect (seems like a first draft from the comments), notable some typos and missing Luas stations, but hopefully these shortcomings will be rectified.

I love it. It would be great if Dublin Bus introduced that kind of simple map, along with a simple zonal fare structure a proper integrated ticket.

L1011

mikemac wrote: »

Numbering system in Dublin seems to be a mess.
Maybe it developed organically over the decades

Much of the numbering is inherited from what number DUTC tram served the original route of the bus, in the 1940s...

rusty1052

Hi Guys just noticed the image from the blog appearing here, I would be the guy that produced the maps above. I've just updated the and posted under a new post - http://dt106ers.com/blog/2011/12/update-dublin-transport-map-v1-5/

Would really appreciate if you could spare a couple of minutes just to have a wee check over it to make sure i've cut out all the typos. Just one quick note that the text in the fares area will be changed, doesn't really make much sense at the moment and looks a wee bit crap.

MYOB wrote: »

Much of the numbering is inherited from what number DUTC tram served the original route of the bus, in the 1940s...

You'd be quite right with that.

LaFlammeRouge

rusty1052 wrote: »

Hi Guys just noticed the image from the blog appearing here, I would be the guy that produced the maps above. I've just updated the and posted under a new post - http://dt106ers.com/blog/2011/12/update-dublin-transport-map-v1-5/

I think the map is great. Here is a couple of suggestions:

• Make the lines straighter. There is too many bends. I think your representation of the 39A is the best. Some of the others are needlessly following the geographical route.
  
  
• Put the bus route numbers on the map, at the end of the route line.
  
  
• More information icons would be could e.g. P&R Symbol at the Red Cow and Navan Road train station, a plane symbol at the airport, ferry symbol at Dun Laoighaire etc.

xper

rusty1052 wrote: »

Would really appreciate if you could spare a couple of minutes just to have a wee check over it to make sure i've cut out all the typos.

Very good effort. I did notice one error - you have the 46A going through Baggot St and the 39A going through Lesson Street. It should be the other way around. And the 39A northbound does serve St Stephen's Green after Baggot St - I suppose it depends how messy you want to gt with the one-way system.

loyatemu

the Luas Green line stop is called "Laughanstown", not Laughlinstown (there is a place called "Loughlinstown" nearby, but its not there). You're also missing an "A" in Kilmacanogue.

Nice map though, interesting how virtually every bus route goes up Westmoreland St...

rusty1052

xper wrote: »

Very good effort. I did notice one error - you have the 46A going through Baggot St and the 39A going through Lesson Street. It should be the other way around. And the 39A northbound does serve St Stephen's Green after Baggot St - I suppose it depends how messy you want to gt with the one-way system.

Oops, can't believe i missed that one, pretty obvious. Yeah I think i'll keep the one way as simple as possible. Thanks a mill for the feedback though!

@loyatemu thanks for that definitely wouldn't have noticed they're spelt differently. Thanks a mill for letting me know. Yes that seems to be a strength and a weakness of the current DB network, is 95% of routes serve either Westmoreland street or D'Olier street.

JazzyJ

WARNING: Spelling Nazi Ahead

Willbrook, Rathfarnham, Templeogue, Tymonville, Leixlip, Blanchardstown Centre, Glenageary, Kill Lane, Merville, Leeson Street, Morehampton, Booterstown, Montpellier are spelt incorrectly in the map.

Ballinteer and Saggart are spelt incorrectly in the Guide to Services.

Never heard of Cornerstown - do you mean Cornelscourt?

York Road's label is away from its stop.

Inconsistent use of apostrophes - e.g. St. James's v St. Stephen's Green v St. Patricks College v St Peters.

Should it be Harold's Cross Bridge rather than just Harolds Bridge - there's probably enough space for it.

There's a few stops missing on the green luas line which you could probably fit in easily enough. It might be easier to have a straight line from Harcourt to Cherrywood, parallel to the 145 line.


Great stuff all the same!

BenShermin

I think the map is excellent. The only problem I have with it is that a huge population centre of West Dublin and a major bus corridor is not covered, Lucan and the N4.

L1011

BenShermin wrote: »

I think the map is excellent. The only problem I have with it is that a huge population centre of West Dublin and a major bus corridor is not covered, Lucan and the N4.

That'd be down to the underlying DB routes not providing the frequency that r1052 is using.

LXFlyer

There are two areas where the numbering system does have this impact:

Lucan QBC:
The 25a and 25b are designed as one combined service and should be treated as one route splitting in two in Lucan. They offer a combined service along the Lucan QBC that is every 15 minutes off-peak and every 5 at peak.

The 66/a/b combined offer a 15 minute frequency to Leixlip before splitting in three.

Swords QBC:
Similarly the 41/41c offers a combined frequency of every 15 minutes off-peak and every 6-7 minutes at peak along the Swords QBC but take different routings in Swords.

Excellent map - hopefully Dublin Bus will also republish the network spider map issued last year once all of the network changes are completed next year. There is going to have to be a major push on getting information (especially maps) updated asap in early 2012.

rusty1052

JazzyJ wrote: »

WARNING: Spelling Nazi Ahead

Was in stitches when i saw that, wish i had you around before i published the map! Thanks a mill, typos and spelling errors dully noted and shall be fixed.

@BenShermin and @lxflyer I understand your points I just wanted to stay away from combining routes as when I did the study of all the routes there are plenty of places where combing route frequencies can be justified and it will just get too messy. However since I live out the 41 direction and a number of people have really wanted to see the Lucan routes on it I will look into adding them to it in the next iteration. Hopefully end of the week sometime, so watch this space

Xylophonic

On the 27 route near Coolock, you have mentioned Grange Castle which is the 13 terminus over the far side of the city. You could also change it to show the 27 serving Northside, whilst the 27b is at least a 5 minute walk from Northside.

Other than that, I find it easy to read/follow.

rusty1052

Xylophonic wrote: »

On the 27 route near Coolock, you have mentioned Grange Castle which is the 13 terminus over the far side of the city. You could also change it to show the 27 serving Northside, whilst the 27b is at least a 5 minute walk from Northside.

Other than that, I find it easy to read/follow.

Oh yeah oops no idea where my head was at when i put those in. It should be Greencastle for the 27. Was jumping the gun with the 27b and its realignment as part of the 79 next year, so have changed that to Ardlea Rd and move Beaumount Hospital up the ladder so to speak.

Thanks for pointing those out much appreciated and glad you like it!

C

LaFlammeRouge

Aard wrote: »

Haha RTE copied that map:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qlyp5QPCRZY

Funny video btw

dublinman1990

That is a fine looking map there. The amount of work that must have went into it was huge and particularly huge.

The only things I'd update is the DB fares and also include the leap card fares and website etc....

Overall very impressive. I would say whoever designed it to keep it up.

donspeekinglesh

Would the 130 not belong on the map? Every 8-10 minutes during the day.