Vatican rejects Taoiseach’s criticism over Cloyne sex abuse report

Keylem

"THE VATICAN HAS this morning denied claims that it interfered in efforts to report priests implicated in the Cloyne report into sexual abuse in the Cork diocese to authorities and criticised the Taoiseach’s unprecedented attack on the Catholic Church."

http://www.thejournal.ie/vatican-rejects-taoiseachs-criticism-over-cloyne-sex-abuse-report-217135-Sep2011/

catbear

Rome, go home.

alex73

catbear wrote: »

Rome, go home.

Did you read the report before you made your 3 word comment?

Cybercelesta

alex73 wrote: »

Did you read the report before you made your 3 word comment?

Obviously not!

I have downloaded the report and will read it later!

The response in full:

http://www.news.va/en/news/cloyne-holy-see-response-in-full

darealtulip

Lets believe the vatican over the indepent researchers that made the raport. I read a good bit of it and it is the approach they always take. Take no responsibility and pass the bucket.

Cybercelesta

darealtulip wrote: »

Lets believe the vatican over the indepent researchers that made the raport. I read a good bit of it and it is the approach they always take. Take no responsibility and pass the bucket.

The blame lies with the bishops in charge, those who didn't follow Vatican guidelines!

Enda Kenny deliberately quoted an old document out of context to make it look like the Vatican was implicated in the Cloyne Report, that is misleading and dishonest, and you suggest we believe the Government!?

smokingman

darealtulip wrote: »

Lets believe the vatican over the indepent researchers that made the raport. I read a good bit of it and it is the approach they always take. Take no responsibility and pass the bucket.

I expect the response to be full of "cognitive dissonance".

Duke Leonal Felmet

Cybercelesta wrote: »

The blame lies with the bishops in charge, those who didn't follow Vatican guidelines!

Enda Kenny deliberately quoted an old document out of context to make it look like the Vatican was implicated in the Cloyne Report, that is misleading and dishonest, and you suggest we believe the Government!?

I wouldn't believe a word from either institution.

jhegarty

catbear wrote: »

Rome, go home.

They are , this was issued from Rome.

PatricaMcKay2

jhegarty wrote: »

They are , this was issued from Rome.

Har, har, har...The Vatitican since gave the Norman elite Ireland in the same way she them gave them England before us in order to rob us of our native Christian hertitage and Church government has been a curse upon these shores.

smokingman

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

Har, har, har...The Vatitican since gave the Norman elite Ireland in the same way she them gave them England before us in order to rob us of our native Christian hertitage and Church government has been a curse upon these shores.

Is there meant to be something coherent in those letters bundled together up there?

All I could glean was something about "native christian heritage".
Surely she means "native pagan heritage" if she's talking about Éire?

Spacedog

smokingman wrote: »

Is there meant to be something coherent in those letters bundled together up there?

All I could glean was something about "native christian heritage".
Surely she means "native pagan heritage" if she's talking about Éire?

Stop talking sense, this is the Christianity board.

Fanny Cradock

Spacedog wrote: »

Stop talking sense, this is the Christianity board.

Yo, dog! If you presuppose that no sense can be talked here because this is the Christianity forum then please stop posting. In the mean time you can spare us the sarky comments. K?

Keaton

This comment was left below an excellent blog post:

The response of the Vatican was professional, respectful and studied. Gilmore and Kenny's rants were none of those things. They have made fools of themselves, as future historians will note.

You can read the post here:

Scum, blood traitors, mud-bloods, filth.

PDN

Spacedog wrote: »

Stop talking sense, this is the Christianity board.

Enjoy your holiday from the Forum.

Woof!

darealtulip

Cybercelesta wrote: »

The blame lies with the bishops in charge, those who didn't follow Vatican guidelines!

Enda Kenny deliberately quoted an old document out of context to make it look like the Vatican was implicated in the Cloyne Report, that is misleading and dishonest, and you suggest we believe the Government!?

The most significant sentence in the Vatican’s response to the Irish Government about the Cloyne Report comes on the second-last page, just before the concluding remarks. It says: “From the foregoing considerations, it should be clear that the Holy See expects the Irish Bishops to cooperate with the civil authorities, to implement fully the norms of canon law and to ensure the full and impartial application of the child safety norms of the Church in Ireland.”

This sounds reasonable on the face of it. But it conceals a vital distinction that the Catholic Church has already used to mislead people in Ireland on the same issue. Look again carefully at the wording: the Bishops should implement “fully” the norms of canon law, and ensure the “full and impartial” application of the Church’s child safety norms. Yet when it comes to cooperating with the civil authorities, as opposed to the internal rules of the Church, the important word “fully” is missing.

This missing word “fully” is the exact formulation that the Dublin Archdiocese used in 1997 to mislead people about its response to the sexual abuse of Marie Collins. When the priest who had abused Collins was convicted, the Archdiocese issued a press statement claiming that it had cooperated with police in relation to her complaint. Collins was upset by this and told her friend Father James Norman. Father Norman told police that he had asked the Archdiocese about the statement and the explanation he received was that “we never said we cooperated ‘fully’, placing emphasis on the word ‘fully’.”

darealtulip

And the Irish Times must have it wrong too?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0905/1224303498653.html?fb_ref=.TmSTYPswwfo.like&fb_source=home_oneline

I can see you need blind faith to follow a religion, but having blind faith in the vatican which has all reason not to take responsibility is wrong and I am happy to hear that many Catholics are not having the blind faith in the Vaticans motivations anymore.

It is in the vaticans interest to avoid responsibility since that will be the cheapest way out for them.

gimmebroadband

Isn't it amazing how things can be read out of context to suit the mindframe of the person reading it?!

The same thing could be said of the 1997 Vatican Letter that the Irish Government alluded to before it did a "Hitler" impression!

An extract from yesterday's Sunday Independent!

"The Cloyne report based much of it's accusations against the Holy See on a 1997 letter from the Vatican's 'ambassador to Ireland' to the country's bishops expressing "serious reservations" about their policy requiring bishops to report abusers to gardai.
The Cloyne Report had admonished the Vatican for diminishing the bishop's abuse policy as a mere "Study Document" in the 1997 letter, implying that it wasn't an offical policy that needed to be followed.
The policy had been presented at the time as mandatory for all of Ireland's bishops. The Vatican however, said the policy was never a legally binding policy because the Irish bishops themselves had never sought to make it so by submitting it for official approval by the Vatican.
The reports "contain no evidence to suggest the Holy See meddled in the internal affairs of the Irish State or for that matter was involved in the day-to-day managment of Irish dioceses or religous congregations with respect to sexual issues."


More ......

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/09/04/ireland.vatican.sex.abuse/index.html?hpt=hp_bn3

The bishop is successor to the apostles, and as head of a dioscese is responsible for policing it, the buck falls with him.

Baggio1

i mean how can anyone take Gilmore seriously??

the guy who was trumpeting on about, "we've turned the corner, our economy is getting stronger, we have growth this year" bla bla hahahaha its enough to make ya cry or laugh hey yeah let him pop over to Barossa you know? that other clown? yeah the guy who ALSO believes there's no euro crisis and the Euro zone is strong,,, hahaha
lets face it.. Kenny and Gilmore jumped on the anti church punch bag because they needed a side show, as people were starting to cop on about them and their veryy naughty social policies and basic screwing of people for every penny they could get... so yeahh lets bash the baddies in Rome "their the ones guys lets get em!"

anyway they really should know their details before making diplomatic gafs.. uggh Irish politicians?? all the professionalism of a pair of blind dart throwers

ISAW

[QUOTE=darealtulip;74217171
I can see you need blind faith to follow a religion,
[/quote]

Your opinion is only one way of looking at it. In fact the roman Catholic position would be that Christianity requires faith and reason. Blind faith without reason isn't their philosophy.

but having blind faith in the vatican which has all reason not to take responsibility

The vatican does not have a reason not to take responsibility. But as it happens the church always opposed the practice of sex with children. They had laws against it in the early church. And in the period in 1997 of which we are discussing, the Irish State decided not to pursue a policy of mandatory reporting by legislating for it but the church did decide to pursue that very policy.

is wrong and I am happy to hear that many Catholics are not having the blind faith in the Vaticans motivations anymore.

While in their view there might be a requirement for a pope there is no theological faith based requirement for the Vatican in the Roman Catholic Church. It is a temporal construct which is quite efficient for its size but it is not a requirement of faith.

It is in the vaticans interest to avoid responsibility since that will be the cheapest way out for them.

One would have to assume the Vatican were "IN " something to begin with. The Vatican didn't organise child sexual abuse or strive to cover up such abuse through any policy. Senior people i.e;. bishops ( who run their own diocese) did make mistakes in policy but of the numbers of bishops might at best reach ten out of thousands of them worldwide in the last half century or so. In addition there are hundreds of thousands if not millions of priests. The numbers involved in child sex abuse may be as much as a hundred. Even if as high as a thousand it is under 0.1 per cent of priests.

Now tell me this if 0.1 per cent of men are guilty of rape would you say all men have a culture of rape and it is a "male thing"?

PDN

gimmebroadband wrote: »

Isn't it amazing how things can be read out of context to suit the mindframe of the person reading it?!

The same thing could be said of the 1997 Vatican Letter that the Irish Government alluded to before it did a "Hitler" impression!

Come off it, Dragging Hitler into this is to dredge the gutter.

People criticising the Vatican does not equate them to one of the greatest mass-murderers in history.

optogirl

Cybercelesta wrote: »

The blame lies with the bishops in charge, those who didn't follow Vatican guidelines!

Enda Kenny deliberately quoted an old document out of context to make it look like the Vatican was implicated in the Cloyne Report, that is misleading and dishonest, and you suggest we believe the Government!?

And do you blame the salespeople in the banks for giving out mortgages to people who couldn't afford them or the management and culture in the bank?

PDN

optogirl wrote: »

And do you blame the salespeople in the banks for giving out mortgages to people who couldn't afford them or the management and culture in the bank?

Indeed. If an organisation appoints people into positions of responsibility, then the organisation is responsible for ensuring their appointees remain accountable. As the notice on Harry Truman's desk famously read - "The buck stops here."

After centuries of running an organisation that claims to be the one true Church on earth, it is a bit rich for the leadership to hold up their hands and say, "It was nothing to do with us!"

gimmebroadband

optogirl wrote: »

And do you blame the salespeople in the banks for giving out mortgages to people who couldn't afford them or the management and culture in the bank?

No more than I blame the people for voting in an inept Government!!!

Table Top Joe

I have to say im genuinely stunned at some of the comments here,people are disgusted with the church and all involved for a very good,valid reason,its very black and white,the church has knowingly covered up child rape!,how can people still defend them?? people here talk of disgust with Gilmore and Kenny?? are you people for real?? they are finally giving a voice to those who never had one,the church and its followers used to make me angry now it just makes me sad


When i was a kid in school i believed in and loved Jesus,thought he was great! i was easily the most religious in my class.....then as i got older i came across his "followers" and i felt conned,the Jesus i learned about in school and mass obviously wasnt the same one some of you learned about,if he was here today he'd be repulsed by the Vatican


You think Jesus would put a money making organisation over the well being of children? really? the church has no one to blame for so many atheists in this country(and apathy towards it in general)than itself


Its a well known cliched quote but its as true today as it ever was


"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." Gandhi




Im just appalled by some of you,i know a guy in his 60s who sleeps with the lights on every night because of the abuse he suffered as a kid,this is very real,please remember those people next time your moaning about the poor ol hard done by church

Cybercelesta

PDN wrote: »

Come off it, Dragging Hitler into this is to dredge the gutter.

People criticising the Vatican does not equate them to one of the greatest mass-murderers in history.

I think GB is reffering to his speaking style, which is much the same as Paisley - mouthing off! Jesus is the head of the Church, the Pope is the custodion of the keys.

darealtulip

It was brought to my attention that the term "blind faith" was offensive.

This was not my intention since using offensive language stops a proper discussion.

Also I did not came on this thread to discuss religion and therefore my word choice is counter productive.

Keaton

Table Top Joe wrote: »

I have to say im genuinely stunned at some of the comments here,people are disgusted with the church and all involved for a very good,valid reason,its very black and white,the church has knowingly covered up child rape!,how can people still defend them?? people here talk of disgust with Gilmore and Kenny?? are you people for real?? they are finally giving a voice to those who never had one,the church and its followers used to make me angry now it just makes me sad

When you realise that Mr Gilmore is desiring to introduce abortion to Ireland, you can see through his stinking hypocrisy.

Bad things happened in the past. Mistakes were made, sins committed. But today, the RCC is the safest place for young people in Ireland today. That's a fact.

This is good:

Dr Martin also rejected as “a bit unfair” Tánaiste Eamon Gilmore’s description of the Vatican’s response as “very technical and legalistic”. Speaking in Dublin, yesterday, he said: “The Vatican responded to the questions they were asked and some of the questions were about norms and legislation. It is a bit unfair to say that they gave technical answers – they were technical questions.”

darealtulip

@ ISAW

see my post above for the "blind faith" bit. Wrong word choice.

You can't compare man as a group with an organisation which has a strict hierarchy. Man did not move offenders around so they could do more harm etc.

The head of a organisation is responsible to make sure mistakes made in the past will not happen again. So the least they are guilty of is misconduct and bad management (in my opinion). If this was a political party we would ask the leader to resign.

The way the vatican is handeling the issue is not good for the followers of their Church and certainly not for the abuse victims.

optogirl

Keaton wrote: »

But today, the RCC is the safest place for young people in Ireland today. That's a fact.

no, it simply is NOT a fact.

soterpisc

optogirl wrote: »

no, it simply is NOT a fact.

It is a fact. No priest is going to been seen with a Child today. Its all open and monitored.