SAAB - are they going to make it?

VolvoMan

With news that the Swedish debt agency have begun collecting some of their assets, the various deals with the Chinese that are slow to materialise and the latest reported loss of some $300 million; the future is looking bleak for the brand.

It is sad really, as it all looked so promising up until a few months ago. As recently as the Geneva Motor Show, there was the debut of the Jason Castriota designed SAAB Phoenix Concept, which previewed the styling of the next 9-3. There has also been talk of them re-entering WRC, but now it seems that all those hopes and dreams by fans will soon be shattered. Unless they attract some miracle investor who is willing to pump millions into the brand, it is looking like they are heading for the scrapyard.

What are people's thoughts?

unkel

Hold on, the various deals with the Chinese may be slow to materialise, but nevertheless, Chinese companies are jumping up and pushing around to get their hands on Saab

It ain't curtains yet and I bet some deal will be struck at some point. Doing a deal with a Chinese company is complicated. Within China it involves a lot or red tape and let's just call it "personal persuasion tactics"

Just today another Chinese sniffer deal reached the newsrooms:

linky, posted by Bloomberg

Pangda, Zhejiang Youngman seek stake in Saab

BEIJING - Pangda Automobile Trade Co and Zhejiang Youngman Lotus Automobile Co will seek approval from China's top economic planning agency this month to invest in the cash-starved Swedish carmaker Saab Automobile AB.

Pangda, China's biggest dealer by market value, and automaker Zhejiang Youngman agreed in June to buy a combined 53.9 percent stake in Saab for 245 million euros ($352 million).

"We're optimistic about the deal getting approval from the National Development and Reform Commission (NDRC) as we believe it is in line with government policies," Wang Yin, Pangda's board secretary, said on Thursday.

The two companies plan to submit the application in the next two weeks, he said.

Saab is close to getting a loan of about 1 billion kronor ($158 million) to pay overdue salaries and avert a looming bankruptcy, said three people familiar with the matter.

The automaker is betting the funds will hold it over until Chinese regulators approve Pangda and Zhejiang Youngman as investors.

The two companies have yet to set a date to submit an application to the Ministry of Commerce, Wang said.

Overseas investments by Chinese companies require approval from various government agencies including the industry planner and trade and foreign-currency regulators.

Share price

The stock has declined 9.9 percent since May 16, when Pangda first agreed to an equity and distribution deal with Saab owner Swedish Automobile NV that was revised to a 24 percent stake purchase for 109 million euros. The benchmark CSI 300 Index fell 8.3 percent in the same period.

The loan to Saab would be provided by one of the five biggest European banks, said one of the people, who declined to be identified because the talks are private.

The Netherlands-based carmaker, which General Motors Co sold in 2010, first suspended production in late March amid a cash crunch, and the main factory in Trollhaettan, Sweden, has been shut since early June.

Saab delayed paying wages last week, the third consecutive postponement in as many months, prompting labor leaders to start a process that may lead them to seek a bankruptcy declaration against the carmaker if wages aren't paid.

VolvoMan

Surprised no one else as has had anything to contribute to this thread.

mike65

Saab closure fatigue?

johnos1984

They are fooked and I'm considering one when they go the way of Rover.

It's MGR all over again

ShadowHearth

Now was I drunk or I really sow a 2011 Saab the other day?

Fizman

ShadowHearth wrote: »

Now was I drunk or I really sow a 2011 Saab the other day?

One was parked beside my apartment the other day and it was looking well I can tell you!

lomb

Why would any investor want to put money into a sinking ship? Chances are the Chinese are just in negotions as a a ploy. Get access to figures and technical know how. Then the plug gets pulled and the receivers sell the equipment and parts to the same Chinese 'investors' for a fraction of what they were going to put in. The equipment and machinery is shipped back to China where production resumes for the Asian market.
Same as what happened with Rover I think.

Saab Ed

johnos1984 wrote: »

They are fooked and I'm considering one when they go the way of Rover.

It's MGR all over again

I'm not so sure. The Chinese crave credibility and the Saab brand still holds a higher social status than run of the mill stuff. Just look at Volvo for an similar example. Large mundane group platforms and engines with generic switch gear yet sellable at a much larger margin.

While i'm clearly biased I still really think that there's alot of people out there just waiting for an excuse to own a Saab such is the alure of the brand. Remember its not an Audi or a BMW and for lots of folk thats all the reason they need to buy something quality and upmarket without falling into a cliche trap.

Every stunt in the book is being used at the moment to keep Saab going so once everthing has been approved and signed off then there really is no reason why it wont survive. MGR died because the name was long since tarnished with a combination of crap product, crap brand management and no alure ( unlike LR/RR ). Saab is still perceived as a quality product, a premium brand sold at a premium price. MGRs were sold at mega discount on the high street rail. Thats why they died, nobody from people to buy them to investors to own them were interested.

cul-2008

I parked an '11 reg SAAB 9-3 a few weeks ago for a client at work and it was one of the ugliest & bland 'sales-rep' cars that I've seen in a while.

As for the cabin, might as well be sitting in a Scania.

End of the line for them I'd say...and it's a pity, they were on to a good thing at one stage but they lost all sight of it.

Bodhan

Saab have registered 135 cars in Ireland this year so far, that kind of says it all for the health of the entire company really.

johnos1984

Saab Ed wrote: »

MGR died because the name was long since tarnished with a combination of crap product, crap brand management and no alure ( unlike LR/RR ).

SAAB will die because the name has now been long since tarnished with a combination of an obsolete product, crap brand management and no allure (unlike Volvo)

I'd love SAAB to survive but I don't see it happening.

AugustusMinimus

SAAB Automobile might not survive.

However, some Chinese company will pick up the name and will start producing cars again, safe in the knowledge that the SAAB name is a better name than whatever the Chinese will come up with.

VolvoMan

Saab Ed wrote: »

I'm not so sure. The Chinese crave credibility and the Saab brand still holds a higher social status than run of the mill stuff. Just look at Volvo for an similar example. Large mundane group platforms and engines with generic switch gear yet sellable at a much larger margin.

Present generation Volvo's are based on platforms that are similar to what you find under Ford's (except the XC90, which is based on the old P2 platform). It's no different to the way Audi were for many years with VW or indeed Land Rover, who's Freelander and Evoque can also trace their roots to Ford underpinnings.

The only reason Volvo aren't going the way of SAAB is because they had a strong product range all of their own before Ford took them over. Even cars like the last generation S60, S80, V70 and present XC90 were all either in production or well under development by the time of the takeover. SAAB and Jaguar on the other hand were basketcases and in fact it's a wonder that the latter still even exists today.

I reckon what really did it for SAAB though was the fact that GM left the original 9-5 in production for 13 years. That and the fact that they never invested in any other product lines besides rebadged versions of the Subaru Impreza and Chevrolet Suburban.

pburns

It doesn't look good does it? It's a pity because Saab was producing the sort of small capacity/high power turbo-charged powerplants that are all the rage now long before it was fashionable. If they had decent product they have an appealing image for our times - I think a lot of buyers in the market are tired with the thrusting, chintzy image of some of their competitors.

In short, they could be challenging Audi the way Audi went after BMW and Mercedes territory in the late '80s/early 90s.

Delancey

I can't help feeling that the Chinese rescuers would be quite happy to see SAAB fail so its assets can be purchased at a knockdown or fire sale price - that would certainly explain why these promises of a China deal seem so slow to materialise.
Can't see SAAB surviving - another sad victim of Government-Aided overcapacity in the European car-making business.

pippip

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/53a4796e-d923-11e0-bd7e-00144feabdc0.html?ftcamp=rss#axzz1XFliHRfU

Saab files for bankruptcy protection

Stevie Dakota

Death by a 1000 cuts, the company may survive in some form but the brand, whatever it stands for anymore, will never recover from this mauling.

Loopsie

johnos1984 wrote: »

They are fooked and I'm considering one when they go the way of Rover.

It's MGR all over again

It is in absolutely NO WAY like the closure of Rover. SAAB is a completely different situation and comparing them to the likes of Rover/MGR is an absolute insult to the brand that is SAAB
For a product that never claimed to have a massive market share they held their heads high and competed up there with the best of them.
GM were the destruction of this amazing brand but it will survive and i am delighted that we will be part of the rebuild. Yes it will be a very difficult struggle but we will get there. SAAB owners are exceptionally loyal to the brand and have a passion and a drive that i have never experienced with any other make of motor car.
Like their badge suggests a Griffin rising from the flames, so too will SAAB

lomb

Loopsie wrote: »

It is in absolutely NO WAY like the closure of Rover. SAAB is a completely different situation and comparing them to the likes of Rover/MGR is an absolute insult to the brand that is SAAB
For a product that never claimed to have a massive market share they held their heads high and competed up there with the best of them.
GM were the destruction of this amazing brand but it will survive and i am delighted that we will be part of the rebuild. Yes it will be a very difficult struggle but we will get there. SAAB owners are exceptionally loyal to the brand and have a passion and a drive that i have never experienced with any other make of motor car.
Like their badge suggests a Griffin rising from the flames, so too will SAAB

Saab is finished in Sweden and Im willing to put my money where my mouth is. Il bet you 20 euro that the company will cease production( it already has) and be liquidated and the assets sold cheap to the Chinese with production resuming there possibly under the Saab brand or possibly not. The Chinese will be knocking out old 9-3s and old 9-5s for their market cheaply. It was never going to work because its not economically viable unless they are owned by a large company that is willing to cost share. Apparently no Western company is willing to do that, and the Chinese would balk at paying Western labour rates which has to make up a large part of the cost of the cars. I did see a new 9-5 the other day which looked fab and I wouldnt mind having a shot in it, but if I had 50 grand would I buy one? Not a chance. Id want a new Mercedes, BMW or Audi ,something with known residuals.

johnos1984

Loopsie wrote: »

It is in absolutely NO WAY like the closure of Rover. SAAB is a completely different situation and comparing them to the likes of Rover/MGR is an absolute insult to the brand that is SAAB
For a product that never claimed to have a massive market share they held their heads high and competed up there with the best of them.
GM were the destruction of this amazing brand but it will survive and i am delighted that we will be part of the rebuild. Yes it will be a very difficult struggle but we will get there. SAAB owners are exceptionally loyal to the brand and have a passion and a drive that i have never experienced with any other make of motor car.
Like their badge suggests a Griffin rising from the flames, so too will SAAB

The whole situation is the same as MGR the only difference is since going independant it has happened a lot quicker to SAAB.

Familiarise yourself with the MGR story and that of SAAB and then come back and tell me how they are different.

Your post above is nonsense

johnos1984

lomb wrote: »

The Chinese will be knocking out old 9-5s

They already are

vector

Bodhan wrote: »

Saab have registered 135 cars in Ireland this year so far, that kind of says it all for the health of the entire company really.

In Cork City the dealership closed, and the brandname now appears over a Ford showroom in Bandon (which used to sell Volvo)

VolvoMan

lomb wrote: »

Id want a new Mercedes, BMW or Audi ,something with known residuals.

So what your saying is you'd rather buy a badge than a car?

Stevie Dakota

VolvoMan wrote: »

So what your saying is you'd rather buy a badge than a car?

Are you saying residuals don't matter when buying a new car?

lomb

VolvoMan wrote: »

So what your saying is you'd rather buy a badge than a car?

The residuals reflect the prestige and image of the vehicle. If the residuals are relatively rubbish it says the car is rubbish from an image point of view, therefore Im wasting my money on it and it is merely a commodity. In which case I might as well buy anything rather than forking out serious cash on a new motor.
All the main brands have a very good offering. Personally if I had 50k today Id buy a Merc E class because it looks lovely. Of course todays new E is tomorrows taxi or knacker mobile but thats the way it gos...

VolvoMan

Stevie Dakota wrote: »

Are you saying residuals don't matter when buying a new car?

lomb wrote: »

The residuals reflect the prestige and image of the vehicle. If the residuals are relatively rubbish it says the car is rubbish from an image point of view, therefore Im wasting my money on it and it is merely a commodity.

All cars depreciate. There is absolutely no new car that you won't lose your shirt on come resale time. If you manage to knock a few grand off the purchase price of a brand new 9-5 then it can be offset against the poor residuals.

There is hardly any individuality in today's motoring society. It's no wonder all the non-German brands are failing when people default to a 5 Series/E-Class/A6 when buying a new car.

ofcork

vector wrote: »

In Cork City the dealership closed, and the brandname now appears over a Ford showroom in Bandon (which used to sell Volvo)

That showroom has been closed with months afaik.

Saab Ed

lomb wrote: »

. The Chinese will be knocking out old 9-3s and old 9-5s for their market cheaply. .

Bad news .....



and.....

DubDani

It seems they are doomed now. Swedish court has today refused them bankruptcy protection and they will have to apply for insolvency now.

mb1725

SAABs were never the same since they lost the middle mud flap!!

galwaytt

cul-2008 wrote: »

As for the cabin, might as well be sitting in a Scania.

...er, what's wrong with a Scania, btw ? Premium quality truck, ackshirley. Did it ever occur to you that the Scania looks more like a.........Saab ?

Stevie Dakota wrote: »

Are you saying residuals don't matter when buying a new car?

That depends. As a petrol head, no, it doesn't matter. As an 'operator of a transport appliance', as many people are, it seems to. I know which group I belong to. I buy car(s) I want, or like, and can afford (hmmm..). Irrespective of 'residuals', I would never buy a car I woudln't like. There's enough other people doing that already tbh......

lomb wrote: »

The residuals reflect the prestige and image of the vehicle. If the residuals are relatively rubbish it says the car is rubbish from an image point of view, therefore Im wasting my money on it and it is merely a commodity. In which case I might as well buy anything rather than forking out serious cash on a new motor.
All the main brands have a very good offering. Personally if I had 50k today Id buy a Merc E class because it looks lovely. Of course todays new E is tomorrows taxi or knacker mobile but thats the way it gos...

Proof that Marketing Succeeds. Residuals tell you nothing about a car, or it's quality. It merely reflects demand for it, in the used car market. You can't say the residual of an AE86 Corolla stems from it's 'prestige' (no offence lads, I mean in the conventionally understood sense....I quite admire them myself). My 968's suffer the same fate, but for the opposite reason - loads of prestige, reek's of quality..........but has zero residuals. Insert any half-decent premium car over 2000cc from the last 15 years in this sentence and it'll be similar story.
Which is why a 316 has 'good residuals' and 325's, well, not so much........I know which one I'd buy........

And, as you say, you'd buy a new E-class because it 'looks good'. In a Kia Magentis sort of way, it does, but you're ignoring that it may turn out to be a ball of shyte. Not saying it is, or will, but the quality isn't first on your own list........

DubDani wrote: »

It seems they are doomed now. Swedish court has today refused them bankruptcy protection and they will have to apply for insolvency now.

Very, very sad. If my Dad's old 99EMS wasn't melting away at the bottom of the garden already.........it'd turn over in it's grave........(sic) I'll get my coat.....

It's so disappointing to see this proud and forward thinking marque going down the way it has gone.

I visited the SAAB museum in Trollhattan last month and the mood there seemed rather somber too. I had hoped to acquire some souvenirs from there but it felt like the shop at museum had already began winding down and many interesting items were sold out. It was good to see the prototypes from 80's that I remember seeing in magazines as child at the time, as well as old beauties like the original 2 stroke 95 estate and the 96 sport. And of course the original 1947 Ur SAAB which was never restored but looked brilliant. Sason and Envall have penned some nice vehicles in their time, all of which culminated in the late model original 900 3 door (the last manufactured car was proudly presented above all the other models in the museum).

Over the years the marque has had such a huge input for development of pertol turbo charging, which went hand in hand with development of first truly modern engine management systems. Ignition coils directly over sparks, knock sensors and using spark plugs to detect knocking and automatic adapation for E85 are all SAAB designs, and the parent GM was later on able to use those technologies in Opels.

On the other hand, years of underinvestment by the parent GM pre Spyker takeover, and even stories about deliberate actions by GM to harm product development and manufacturing in order so secure Opel's position had taken their toll by beginning on 21st century.

I am very fond of my old 9-5 after the visit and am planning to keep it in good shape for years to come. Even with it's many GM parts, it feels like a proper SAAB made from quality materials before the bean counters had chance to water down later versions (although of course there were many technical improvements in them during 00's, like working PCV system).

Anyway, selling large chunks of the company to China does not sound ideal. Those pictures of Chinese blue 9-5 are from late 2009/early 2010, and the first car was actually shipped from Sweden. All this is not related to the latest rescue operation. I'm sure the manufacturing of them in China has since begun. If I remember correctly, the original 9-5 and NG 9-3 technology was already sold there by GM already before the Spyker takeover.

Outlook for SAAB continues to look bleak. Good luck to them, again.

lomb

galwaytt wrote: »

My 968's suffer the same fate, but for the opposite reason - loads of prestige, reek's of quality..........but has zero residuals. Insert any half-decent premium car over 2000cc from the last 15 years in this sentence and it'll be similar story.
[/SIZE]

No offence but you just proved what I was saying . The fact that the 968 has worse residuals percentage wise than say a 911 is due to the fact the 968 is always going to be a poor mans Porsche. Hence poor resale value. Its not a cool car like the 911. Not saying they arent fine cars, in fact I always wanted a club sport when growing up as they seemed affordable even though my bank balance was zero at the time:)

mumblin deaf ro

I have more or less stopped following the slow death of SAAB, even though I am a fan and drive a 1987 900 turbo. There has been endless discussion on the internet (isn't all internet discussion endless?) about why SAAB has ended up like this and where it should go in the future. SAAB used to have Apple-like brand loyalty and used to serve an Apple-like demographic, but it has lost its way, perhaps for good. SAAB needs to focus on perennial swedish appeal - good design and quality pitched at affluent customers who fancy themselves as tasteful and, these days, environmentally aware. Also, SAAB needs a full range: a small car is a must and in a way would be a return to SAAB's roots.

Anyway, I can't help feeling that there will always be a market for an alternative to the slightly corporate connotations of German exec cars. SAAB's previous strong markets were sweden, UK, New England and California - they don't need to win everyone over, they just need to reclaim their niche.

Chinese ownership may not be the end of SAAB - Jaguar seems to be doing ok under tata. Even if the brand lays dormant, it could still be bought and resurrected later (BMW owns Triumph by the way).

A final comment about scania. The SAAB slogan could have been 'born from trucks' - two major parts of the SAAB brand came from Scania: turbo charging and build quality that earned a reputation for long-life/high mileage vehicles - my car has a measly 190k on it.

johnos1984

I think this thread pretty much sums up the why SAAB are going under.

People have lost interest completely.

Me however, I'm starting to wait for a new year bargain if they do

Pdfile

they won't with current management.

Im sorry but ill see you later saab, the glory days of Carrlson 9000/93/95/900 are long long gone now

VolvoMan

Here's an update on the situation: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/10/us-potential-saab-idUSTRE78911Q20110910

unkel

Unions filed for Saab bankruptcy today

Article

VolvoMan

Unfortunately it is looking like MG Rover all over again.

Eric Cartman

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

SAAB Automobile might not survive.

However, some Chinese company will pick up the name and will start producing cars again, safe in the knowledge that the SAAB name is a better name than whatever the Chinese will come up with.

yeah, that happened with polariod , the new company started making crappy tvs and digital cameras, people will cop on quick and any of the people who forked out for the cars will have something with lower resale appeal than a knackered ssanyong

VolvoMan

http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/259262/

It appears SAAB have been granted a stay of execution - for now.

V Eight

mb1725 wrote: »

SAABs were never the same since they lost the middle mud flap!!

WOW great looking car!

VolvoMan

Some bad news today: http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/259520/

johnos1984

I can't say it will surprise me when it happens.
Still it makes them all the more appealling as future bargains even if the parts prices are a bit mental

VolvoMan

johnos1984 wrote: »

I can't say it will surprise me when it happens.
Still it makes them all the more appealling as future bargains even if the parts prices are a bit mental

I hate to say it, but I don't think MG Rover were even as fooked as SAAB are, and they still went to the wall.

johnos1984

VolvoMan wrote: »

I hate to say it, but I don't think MG Rover were even as fooked as SAAB are, and they still went to the wall.

I'd prefer if SAAB were put down out of their missery.

GM ruined them

johnos1984

Out of interest are parts as mentally priced as I'm lead to believe?

VolvoMan

johnos1984 wrote: »

Out of interest are parts as mentally priced as I'm lead to believe?

If they aren't, they soon will be.;)

Big Nasty

Saab has received the first part of a bridge loan from China's Zhejiang Youngman Lotus Automobile, the carmaker's owner Swedish Automobile NV said in a statement. Further payments are expected to be made this week and by October 22, the company added. Swedish Automobile didn't say how much the initial payment had been, but a report in Wednesday's Swedish daily Dagens Industri, said the automaker had received about 100 million crowns ($15 million).
Quoting unnamed sources, the paper said the money will be used to pay wages at Saab when a government salary insurance scheme runs out. The salary insurance plan started when the company received creditor protection in late September.
The money is part of a 70 million euro ($97 million) loan secured by Youngman that is intended to see cash-starved Saab through the period of creditor protection, until Chinese authorities agree a bigger investment by Youngman and China's Pang Da.
Swedish Automobile intends to repay the bridge loan with the proceeds of these bigger 245 million euro ($338 million) equity deals, which are still subject to approval by relevant authorities and parties,'' the company said in the statement on Thursday.
Pang Da has already paid 45 million euros to Saab for a separate deal to purchase 2,000 cars but has not received any cars due to a production halt since April.

Read more: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20111013/ANE/111019936/1131#ixzz1aeVPzwWb

GavMan

Let's hope they make a better fist of it than the new Rover